guitar damage?

Subject: guitar damage?
From: GUEST,sam
Date: 29 Sep 00 - 09:58 PM

I've taken to leaving my Martin 6- string on a guitar stand in my living room (as opposed to putting it in it's case). Am I in danger?

Subject: RE: guitar damage?
From: bbelle
Date: 29 Sep 00 - 10:07 PM

If you live in an area with very high humidity, leaving it out isn't a good idea. Keep it in the case. If you don't have a/c, I'd throw in some Dampits, as well. I live in North Florida and know from what I speak.

Plus, it only takes one stumble to flatten it.

moonjen

Subject: RE: guitar damage?
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 29 Sep 00 - 10:34 PM

I recently purchased a Martin, and they sent along a brochure on how to take care of it. They said that the guitar is comfortable in the same conditions you are -- not too hot, cold, dry or wet. If your living room has a good climate year-round, then the guitar is okay. Consider the humidity as well as the temperature.

A few months ago I talked to some people from New Mexico who couldn't understand why their recorder joints were loosening up. Turned out they had been exposed to desert-dry air for an age and were shrinking. Don't do that.

Subject: RE: guitar damage?
From: bbelle
Date: 29 Sep 00 - 10:40 PM

leeneia ... you're right, too dry can be as detrimental as too wet. The humidity in Fairbanks AK was about 3% and, again, I kept my guitar in its case. In addition, where I have A/C in North Florida, I had a humidifier in Fairbanks.

moonjen

Subject: RE: guitar damage?
From: Sorcha
Date: 29 Sep 00 - 10:40 PM

Do you have cats? 'Nuff said............

Subject: RE: guitar damage?
From: Tinker
Date: 29 Sep 00 - 11:23 PM

Children, or guest children????? Clumsy Friends???

Subject: RE: guitar damage?
From: GUEST,Murray Macleod
Date: 29 Sep 00 - 11:46 PM

If you live in an area of high humidity, leaving it out on a stand is not going to do the guitar any permanent damage whatsoever.

Two things will happen. First of all the action will become stiffer because the domed soundboard will swell slightly as it absorbs moisture, thus raising the level of the bridge ralative to the fretboard.(Actually it is the soundboard bracing that swells, but lets not get technical) Secondly, the quality of the tone will deteriorate slightly, as guitars always sound better in a dry(ish) environment. Humid conditions make them sound slightly flabbier. Neither of these pronlems is permanent , serious or irreversible.

HOWEVER, if you live in an area of low humidity, like New Mexico or Arizona, get it back in the case immediately. The best case scenario is that the lacquer finish will start to craze and crack, worst case is that splits will develop in the soundboard, sides or back. Keep it in the case with a Humitor.

Or emigrate to Britain. They dont have the same humidity problems there!

Murray

Subject: RE: guitar damage?
From: Midchuck
Date: 30 Sep 00 - 08:30 AM

It's a good idea to keep one out and available, at least during the day. You're more apt to play if you have 5 minutes to spare.

But a wall hanger, set up too high for dogs, cats, little kids, or clumsy adults, is a much better idea than a floor stand. And a room humidifier or dehumidifier should be used when either is appropriate.

Peter.

Subject: RE: guitar damage?
From: Allan C.
Date: 30 Sep 00 - 09:14 AM

Bear in mind that in the case or out of the case - either way alone does little to protect a guitar from temperature and humidity. There is nothing magical about a case. After all, it isn't as if you can quickly shoo out all the unwanted moisture or heat before you close the lid.

Guitar humidifiers, such as mentioned above, or even a desicator (similar to those little packets found in some new shoes), depending upon your climate, can be of great help in extreme conditions.

If climate is not a major problem and the guitar is in no danger of being knocked over, then by all means leave it out. It is far more likely to be played. It is often difficult to hear the guitar calling you if it's voice is muffled by the case.

Subject: RE: guitar damage?
From: bbelle
Date: 30 Sep 00 - 09:33 AM

I beg to differ with you about keeping it in the case. It does offer protection and the maker of my guitar, plus different luthiers I've consulted, suggests keeping it in the case for that reason. I've subjected my Gibson to severe changes in climate and, in most instances, had neither AC or humidifier. And still no damage.

Obviously, if one's living room is perfectly climate controlled, keep it out all you want. But I agree with Midchuck and a wall hanger is the safest place to "set" your guitar and being able to just "pick it up and play," instead of always having to get it out of its case, is much more conducive.

moonjen

Subject: RE: guitar damage?
From: Mbo
Date: 30 Sep 00 - 09:39 AM

My guitar always sits in the corner. Corner of 2 walls now, formerly the corner of my bureau and a bulletin board. Never seen anything extreme happen to it. It's been sitting out now for..5 years. I put it in a soft case when I bring in home in the car on weekends, but that's it. And sure, it's got tons of dings and gouges, and all around the sound hole all the paint is chipped and the wood grain is raised from heavy strumming. And I still have a strap stuck onto in with a suction cup. But it always sounds great, and has never failed me.

Subject: RE: guitar damage?
From: MK
Date: 30 Sep 00 - 12:55 PM

I cut and pasted the following from Fret's website. It is run by Frank Ford, one of the most respected luthier and stringed instrument repair person in North America.

Here's what he has to say about instruments and storage.

For most instruments, the safest storage is in their cases. There, they are protected from dust and accident, and to some extent, from temperature and humidity fluctuations. But, there they are also more out of the way and less likely to get used for a casual tune.

I prefer to keep mine hanging on the wall. I just use a leather thong tied to the tuners and hang it on a picture hook firmly mounted on the wall. I check behind the instrument to see were it touches the wall and I use double stick tape to attach a small piece of felt, about 4" square to protect the back from scratches.

On the wall, staring at me, my guitar and mandolin are free to make me feel guilty for not playing enough music! They are free from the accidental kick that can send a guitar flying out of its stand. They do collect a bit of dust, but I can keep them wiped off easily enough.

Our old friend, Barry Olivier, has been teaching guitar to individuals and groups in Berkeley, California, for over 40 years. Barry just told me that since the very beginning he has given each of his students (thousands by now!) a leather thong to tie around the pegs so the guitar can hang on the wall. He tells his students to keep the guitar out so they can take advantage of a short playing break of only a couple of minutes.

"If you have two or three minutes to spare, you can play a tune. That is, you can if your guitar is handy." Barry describes the case as a "barrier to playing." He offers this quote from Shakespeare ("Timon of Athens" Act 1, Scene 2) "Sweet instruments hung up in cases. . . keep their sounds to themselves."

Before you ask, I don't believe that exterior walls pose any threat unless you live in a single wall building like a cabin. If I lived in a one-room wood stove heated house or in the swamps or other harsh environment, I'd rethink keeping them out.

In the winter, some houses get really dry when heated, especially if they're in cold parts of the country. If the ambient relative humidity is really low and you don't humidify your house, you probably use a case humidifier and shouldn't be keeping your instrument out.

Direct sunlight is an absolute no-no!

My least favorite place to keep instruments is in stands. They are more in the way because they take floor space, they can fall, and they may have some problems if the finish interacts with the protective vinyl or rubber on the stand.

We all agree that you should detune any instrument that's going into storage for a long time without being used. Only problem with that piece of advice is that usually we intend to play it tomorrow. . .

I think he pretty well summed it up.

Subject: RE: guitar damage?
From:
Date: 01 Oct 00 - 01:25 AM

I agree with Murray (how can I do otherwise?). Dry is far more dangerous than heat.

A case does protect the instrument from fluctuations in temperature/humidity. That is, it takes a period of time for a condition to change in the case. If you live in an area in which the inside is dry for long periods of time, eventually the dry air will damage the instrument in its case.

In some tropical conditions, where it is really humid, a form of fungus can grow on the finish of the guitar which tends to etch it. The funny thing is that the fungus seems more ready to grow on glossy finished surfaces than on matt.

Murray

Subject: RE: guitar damage?
From: Midchuck
Date: 01 Oct 00 - 08:00 AM

Mbo has a fungus?

P.

Subject: RE: guitar damage?
From: Mbo
Date: 01 Oct 00 - 10:31 AM

I don't have a fungus, but I sure am a fungi!

Subject: RE: guitar damage?
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 01 Oct 00 - 10:57 AM

After many years and many, many instruments, I've come to the conclusion that some are tempermental and others aren't. Most of the professionals that I know keep them in their Calton cases. That would drive me nuts. I HAVE to have them on the wall, tuned and ready to play at a moments notice. Other thing I've noticed is, the better the instrument, the more likely you are to have some problems. Yamahas appear to be indestructable. In my opinion, were it not for the "pride" factor, ninety percent of pros would travel with Yamahas and leave their super expensive axes at home. Because their electronics are so superior many DO take their Takamines on the road, and leave their Martins in a safer environment. Not me though...like to live dangerously.

Rick

Subject: RE: guitar damage?
From: ac362
Date: 01 Oct 00 - 11:14 AM

My belief is that it is rapid changes in temp/humidity that cause the damage. If the room is fairly constant the best place is hung on an interior wall. DO NOT use an exterior wall.

Subject: RE: guitar damage?
From: Mooh
Date: 01 Oct 00 - 12:20 PM

I look at it this way. My lifestyle and my immediate requirements are more important than the off chance a guitar will become damaged by atmospheric changes. Having said that however, I do live in the cradle of the Great Lakes where somehow or another no instrument has ever encountered trouble in my home (except for once when the cat bit on a headstock, but that was my fault). Only in the dead of winter do I humidify a guitar and only with soundhole cover type humidifiers. At this moment, so I can readily make use of them, all my guitars are hung in the open above children and pets, from hangers made of wood and leather. These are not cheap plywood guitars either, most being solid wood.

But my point is this: it is more important that I can use instruments with ease than it is to store them in their cases. In any one practice alone at home I will use at least 3 guitars, and the hassle of dealing with cases would restrict my practicing. I also use floor stands once I'm playing for a while for the sake of convenience. In band use, I either use floor stands or open cases. By far the greatest risk to instruments is a clumsy bandmate. At home, I want convenience, otherwise it's not much of a home to me.

Further, I use these guitars for teaching lessons, so it saves a great deal of time for them them to be left visible and accessible.

I personally think that the risk, where I live, is minimal compared to the hassle of casing everything all the time.

My opinion would be very different if I lived in a dessert, make that desert (or both), or the opposite.

Frank Ford's advice is unassailable, as always. I wish he had time to weigh in on every such discussion here.

Subject: RE: guitar damage?
From: bbelle
Date: 01 Oct 00 - 02:58 PM

I agree with everyone who says to keep your instruments "out" so you can pick up and play anytime. For me, it's habit. I've always kept my in the case because I had younger, inquisitive sisters; cats; dogs; boyfriends who thought they were Carlini. So, for me, it's just not a big deal to uncase it when I want to play. As a matter of fact, I am so inurred to doing this that I will play for a while, decide I need a morsel of something, put it back in its case, and ten minutes later, go to play and say "Duh?" when I have to uncase it again.

moonjen

Subject: RE: guitar damage?
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 02 Oct 00 - 08:56 AM

I agree with everyone about the value of keeping your instruments close at hand. I would caution you, however, that excessive dryness can cause damage even if you don't live in the desert. In my part of the world (northeastern USA), we heat our houses for most of the year. And, while I might be pretty comfortable, my guitars can tend to dry out pretty abruptly when the heat first comes on -- the humidity level drops more quickly and dramatically than the guitar can handle. I have witnessed the impacts this can have on otherwise fine instruments, and it isn't pretty. If you're going to leave your guitar out during the portion of the year when the heat is on, I would make sure the room is adequately humidified. If you have a "sensitive" guitar (Rick is right that some are more sensitive than others), you should maintain a moderate humidity level in the space where the instrument resides. If you don't want to humidify the room, you really should humidify the case, and keep the guitar there.

Subject: RE: guitar damage?
From: GUEST,Alex H.
Date: 02 Oct 00 - 11:14 AM

Me too.

I'd rather have my instrument easily available and take my chances with environmental issues.

In addition... Instruments make great decorations. We've got assorted instruments hanging and standing all over the house. Visitors and friends think it is way cool. Of course, we have neither pets nor children to worry about.

Subject: RE: guitar damage?
From: Bert
Date: 02 Oct 00 - 11:32 AM

If it can't live in the same environment as you, then you need to think about getting a guitar that will. I always have at least one guitar out where I can get to it. At the moment it's the Yamaha because we're doing some remodelling. As Rick says, the Yamaha is pretty tough, but not completely indestructable if you've got teenagers.

Subject: RE: guitar damage?
From: sophocleese
Date: 02 Oct 00 - 12:26 PM

My difficulty is finding wall space in the apartment. Right now I've got it on a stand in the front room where the kids are NOT allowed to run around. When the heating goes on and it gets dryer inside my throat suffers so I start humidifying the air with laundry as well as a humidifier if need be.

Subject: RE: guitar damage?
From: Songster Bob
Date: 02 Oct 00 - 02:02 PM

Someone had this line in their response:

I prefer to keep mine hanging on the wall. I just use a leather thong tied to the tuners and hang it on a picture hook firmly mounted on the wall.

Do NOT use leather thong. I have had a light little instrument like a fiddle suddenly drop to the floor when the leather decided it had become too dry. Nylon or some other material is better by far for hanging instruments. Now, if you're going to play them regularly, you'll probably notice the condition of the thong, and if you're careful like that, maybe it's safe enough, but I wouldn't want $2000+ of guitar depending (pun intended) on a thin piece of organic material subject to dry-rot.

Personally, I'm leaning toward the "peghead holder" type of hanger I've seen advertised. These cradle the instrument below the headstock (which won't work for some instruments as well as id does others, of course). That is, when I get my music room/studio in the basement finished (early next year).

John Pearse (of great bronze string-making fame) markets a hanger that uses the center-of-gravity principle to hold instruments in lots of places (like off of shelves or table edges). It's worth a look-see if guitar-hanging is being considered.

Bob Clayton

Subject: SONGSTER BOB
From: GUEST, Banjo Johnny
Date: 03 Oct 00 - 12:07 AM

Songster Bob : Hi Bob! Did you want the Fender strap? Johnny in OKC

Subject: RE: guitar damage?
From: Mooh
Date: 03 Oct 00 - 06:51 AM

I heartily disagree with nylon use on guitars as it reacts with certain finishes.

The way to use leather is the way Martin used to. A single strap about one inch by eight inches with standard strap type hole/slots in each end. The topmost tuning pegs on each side of the headstock slip into the holes and the strap then becomes a hanger. No knots, no tools, and assuming the tuners are secure, perfectly safe. I use one on my lapsteel. The Martin ones were simple and marked with their insignia but an old belt will make several. Such a hanger can be left on the guitar permanently as it does not impede the case, playing style or appearance.

Peace, Mooh.

Several homes in my town have the wood hangers I make (mentioned above), which obviously will work with the leather strap idea.

Subject: RE: guitar damage?
From: Midchuck
Date: 03 Oct 00 - 07:14 AM

The little Y-shaped hangers that screw into the wall, with the rubber coating, for hanging tools like rakes and hoes in the garage (my wife thinks a good song title would be "I Was a Rake, and She was a 'Ho," but I probably don't beat her enough) that you can get in any hardware store, are just too narrow for guitar necks, but work fine for mandolins, octave mandos, etc., etc.

Peter.

Subject: RE: guitar damage?
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 03 Oct 00 - 08:17 AM

Bert, I can handle sudden changes in humidity better than my guitars can, but that doesn't mean that I should get rid of them in favor of an indestructible Yamaha. My solution is to keep them in their cases. Sure, I have to work a couple of latches when I want to take one out, but that takes about five seconds on a slow day. I don't find it to be an impediment to playing whenever I want to.