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BS: more weirdness--past lives
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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives From: hesperis Date: 07 Oct 00 - 09:11 PM You can find a continuation of this thread HERE. |
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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives From: Amos Date: 07 Oct 00 - 06:22 PM There is a fairly simple mechanism in the way the human mind deals with certain extremes of experience in which one's own persona seems untenable, because it has failed, or is being badly overwhelmed by someone else, and that is to take on a more successful peronality. This is emotionally kind of unhealthy in the long run but it provides a way out in the short term. And very often what happens is one takes up a winning personality of which one has some impressions from recent experience -- such as a violent father, or, just as easily, a dominant leader. This leads to all kinds of personal problems, so it is not a recommended solution to stress, but it is a pretty basic impulse when things get unbearable. And I propose that it is not uncommon for someone delving in to the subject of past identities to not want to get too close to those that were highly painful (the peons, foot-soldiers, starving children and battered women, whipped slaves and disemboweled bystanders). It would seem natural to come up with a more tolerable overlay. But this tendency no more invalidates the premise of past lives than the complexities of of molecular motion invalidates the theories of thermal energy transfer. You just gotta take the variables into account. There are some people -- usually the young and creative of any age -- to whom the alternative proposition -- that they are solely composed of molecules and electronic surges, with no true qualitative difference to account for their awareness, intuition, ability to understand and sense of viewpoint, none of which seems explainable by molecular theory -- is the most ridiculous and superstitious proposition that could possibly be entertained by anyone with half a heart. It is unfortunate how strong our culture bends in the direction of that class of explanation, though. A |
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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives From: Skeptic Date: 07 Oct 00 - 05:41 PM Re The last post from "guest:.Twas I. Out surfing on a new computer and didn't remember to log in. John |
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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives From: GUEST Date: 07 Oct 00 - 04:56 PM To the believers An alternate explaination of why there can be 10 people who are reincarnations of the Queen of Sheba (or other famous figures) running around at the same time presents itself: Multiple Personality Disorder (The original historical figures, I mean) As to whether skeptics have emotions, don't be silly. With all the great advances in psychopharmacology we've dispensed with usless things like emotions. Ego is next. And just wait till you see what we have planned once the human genome mapping project is done. To Wolfgang and other interested parties, If you haven't already been to it, the Committe for the Scientific Investigation of Claims of the Paranormal (www.csicop.org)is a great resource. The January 1999 issue of their publication had a grat review of Paul Edwards book "Reincarnation: A Critical Examination" that is an excellent overview of the subject, ranging from the spiritual basis to review of scientific (and pseudoscientific) inquiries on the subject. The following is me on my Soapbox: I believe in things that cannot be proved and probably are not provable in any scientific or even rational sense. Scientifically, ESP has yet to be proven (although the Ganz field experipenst in the mid 90's showed some promise). Believing in ESP, however, is a lot more fun than not believing. But come the day I need paramedics, I'll rely on ATT and 911, thank you) I was really pissed off when I learned that it looks like Rhine faked his results. Belief in reincarnation is undoubtly comforting. It helps people cope with and explain their world. It can also (as several studies of Hindu society have argued(sorry,no citation it was in college a long, long time ago)) serves to maintain the status quo and makes people happy with their lot in life and keeps social unrest at a minimum. Its the "You will eat, by and by, in that glorious land in the sky..." effect. Using anecdotal evidence to validate a belief like reincarnation can be fairly innocuous. It can be comforting. But the same argument can be made for a lot of beliefs and "isms" that aren't all that harmless. If we argue that belief systems and the scientific method result in equal validation of ideas, I get concerned for where that type of system of thinking can lead. Has lead, come to that. BTW In my past I was a believer. I have done past life regressions and free association and all the other recovery techniques. Lots of fun. (I apologize in advance for the following)I once believed I was, among other things, a hunter/trapper in pre-roman England. That was during my mis-spentyouth in the 60's. Although come to think of it, I remeber the hunter/trapper part a lot more clearly than most of the '60s John
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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives From: Little Hawk Date: 07 Oct 00 - 04:33 PM It's time to relaunch this thread. Go to Past Lives/Weirdness, Part II |
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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives From: hesperis Date: 07 Oct 00 - 02:05 PM Wolfgang is not attacking the belief, he's attacking the way we are expressing that belief here, if it's sloppy logic. He sounds quite reasonable to me. I do believe in past lives..... just so you know. |
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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives From: Lena Date: 07 Oct 00 - 07:37 AM I've no reason why I shouldn't believe in past lives.It's difficult,too difficult to grow up in old Florence and not to.I had for a while a funny 'relationship'with the medieval lady I owe my name to(Annalena di Malatesta).My mother,in turning catholic,had to deny any possible belief in past lives,or ghosts.The Vatican firmly commands so.So,when she suddenly stopped going to pray in her favourite convent,I was amazed and asked her why.I found out that that convent was an 'old'infested house and it was arranged as a convent because someone thought that nuns were the right people to get rid of the matter.Problem was,every time at a certain hour my mother,kneeled down in payer,would see always the same 'ghost'doing always the same thing for a couple of seconds,and then go.For the way we are in the family,we would have found it perfectly normal.But it clashed with her being a catholic,and not seeing the thing anymore was her only right way for her to overcome the 'sin' of seeing them.It's also normal for many cultures that the soul of a dying relative goes to visit all his family one by one before parting.It happened to friends,it happened to me.When my granfather(very young and healthy)died,I felt it.I was ten.Two days after it,mum approached me to finally tell me.I anticipated her,saying quietly"I know,Grandfather is dead".And for the first days I didn't cry or stuff,because that quiet awareness stayed with me. I have a dear,dear friend I grew up with.Two years ago she had pneumonia,and started dreaming her daughter.She told me peacefully the thing,and I couldn't get it.She doesn't have a daughter,of course.She replied that she'll have her one day.She described her features,her name and the fact that she would come in the early morning,sit at the end of the bed and stare at her for a while,and then go.Knowing the person,you'd believe her... |
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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives From: BigDaddy Date: 07 Oct 00 - 04:53 AM Wolfgang, probably the only thing we're going to agree upon is that we disagree. I understand what you are saying, but am put off by your need/desire to "attack" (your word) a belief that harms no one, provides comfort and reassurance to many, and is shared by a large number of people the world over. I share similar misgivings over a number of religions/spiritual beliefs, but don't feel it's my job to correct them (or "attack" them). What we're discussing here is not an organized religion but rather a spiritual belief. I don't expect my spirituality to confirm or negate true science; nor do I look to science for confirmation (or negation) of my spirituality. I have the same (emotional) response when I encounter someone using science to "attack" a spiritual matter as I do if I hear someone using a religious belief to question science. There is an "apples and oranges" thing going on here. I feel as if I ventured out of doors on a clear northern night with friends to watch the northern lights and view the milky way and constellations; when along comes a group of people who want to explain to us the scientific workings of each of these phenomenons. My friends and I just wanted to watch in wonder and "ooh and ahh." I should add that here in the actual world I have friends at both ends of the spectrum, and scattered along in between. With some friends I greatly enjoy discussions of spirituality as well as many other things. With others I discuss just about everything but spiritual matters because we know we don't have a common ground there. It doesn't prevent us from sharing love and respect. |
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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives From: Ferrara Date: 06 Oct 00 - 09:54 PM I love the Mudcat. The things you learn -- I never knew before that there's a good brand of white zinfandel! -- I thought Sutter Home was pretty good for the first year or two and then they started making it with ditch water.... Yeah, Wolfgang, it's Ian Stevenson. (My rotten memory strikes again.) As far as criticisms and rebuttals of his investigations, I decided years ago that the book was too expensive and reading it was too much like work, and sorting through critiques and rebuttals would be very, very much too much work; and none of it could prove the unproveable anyway. So I decided to let somebody else figure out whether reincarnation is a "fact." It doesn't make any operational difference in my life either way. Good post, by the way. The thing I do believe in, because it's trustworthy, is my "radar." This is a set of feeling-tones that occasionally lead me to take an action that common sense says is a mistake, because an inner feeling says it's a great thing to do and will turn out well; or, vice versa, not to do something that looks fine on the surface. When I say I believe in this radar, I mean it usually guides me well. It's worth paying attention to. Again, sometime in the 70's I decided I didn't care whether I was experiencing some kind of psychic whatsis, or just doing what I wanted to do but couldn't justify otherwise. If I follow those feelings (they have a certain tone, not all feelings seem to be "radar"), it usually turns out well. So I don't care if they're my unconscious mind's summing up of the situation, or a psychic insight, or a little green angel whispering in my ear. It just works better to listen than not. Usually. .... To be honest, deep down I suspect strongly that they're some form of psychic insight. |
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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives From: mousethief Date: 06 Oct 00 - 06:22 PM I think if you will look at last year's volume of The Journal of Emotional Investigations (I think number 2 or 3; don't have them here with me as I'm at work), you'll see that there have been many studies done on the question of skeptics' emotions, some of which appear to show that they DO have emotions, and some of which appear to show the opposite. The writer of the review study, I think a Dr. Pfeffernuesse, said something along the lines of "I rather doubt that they do, they probably don't, and it really bums me out." The editors of the journal point out that Dr. P. (a world-famous skeptic and poo-poo-er of UFO's) takes antidepressants, and considers Bob Dylan to be "real folk music."
Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives From: sophocleese Date: 06 Oct 00 - 06:12 PM Well I believe that they do, so please try not to tell me they don't. :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives From: Amergin Date: 06 Oct 00 - 04:22 PM I think it is ok, flattop, for I don't think it has ever been proven that sceptics have feelings.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives From: flattop Date: 06 Oct 00 - 04:11 PM Can one be sceptical about sceptics having feelings and sensitivities? Is that ok on a weirdness thread? |
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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives From: Fortunato Date: 06 Oct 00 - 03:55 PM Methusalah discarnate. You do describe a fundamental issue at the crossroads of the sacred and the profane. Yet as a species we embrace the concept of a discorporate nature for our being at every opportunity. The spiritual foundation of our cultures, primitive or otherwise, rests squarely upon a belief that we are more than flesh and bone. Lines are drawn by differences in these beliefs. For example, Judeo-Christians are happy with the concept of being reborn in heaven, to spend eternity as a spirit in heaven, but find ridiculous being reborn here. There's no beer in heaven, my children. chance
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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives From: Peg Date: 06 Oct 00 - 03:21 PM Lil neo wrote: Peg are you kind of saying, lets say I was in charge of burning witches in a previous lifetime, I might come back as a nurse in a burn unit. --or as a witch threatened with burning... Or I once was a peasant whose job it was to force feed geese to make them fat for that disgusting goose pate they use to eat, I might come back as a vegetarian. --or as a chicken in a battery cage on a factory farm... Or maybe I was a black slave owner who would not allow my slaves to sing and play their instruments so now I have come back as a banjo player. --um...no. I think my point was that we may reincarnate in a position where we learn the error of our previous lives by having to experience hardships and challenges designed to illuminate past mistakes... Your interpretation of this is neat, though; that we would come back, as it were, as someone inclined to redress these wrongs...I'll bet that happens, too (as often as any of this does) but karma strikes me as a thing that prefers to deliver difficult lessons over easy ones... peg Is that kind of what you mean? |
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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives From: Little Neophyte Date: 06 Oct 00 - 02:00 PM Peg are you kind of saying, lets say I was in charge of burning witches in a previous lifetime, I might come back as a nurse in a burn unit. Or I once was a peasant whose job it was to force feed geese to make them fat for that disgusting goose pate they use to eat, I might come back as a vegetarian. Or maybe I was a black slave owner who would not allow my slaves to sing and play their instruments so now I have come back as a banjo player. Is that kind of what you mean? The Real Queen of Sheba |
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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives From: Amergin Date: 06 Oct 00 - 01:19 PM I'm also one of those folks who seem older than I actually am.....there is a dream I have every once in a while and it remains unchanged....in it I am wearing grey and end up dying...I firmly believe in reincarnation and that we live through out the ages learning through each life, until we can learn no more.... Amergin |
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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives From: Peg Date: 06 Oct 00 - 01:13 PM I have had this thought more than once, and it seems to be at least tangentially related to the theory expressed above about death ratios and how so many past life experiences are not mathematically possible, etc, so allow me to express it here... I mentioned in an earlier post to this thread that I believe one of my past lives saw some involvement in the medieval or perhaps Colonial witch trials. Since my initial assumption after having these impressions was that, of course! I must have been a witch, a martyr, a misunderstood village healer murdered by my vigilante neighbors!, it did not occur to me until years later, having met a lot more modern witches who also profess to have been persecuted witches in past lives, that I may be, ahem, wrong... My persistent and often vivid memories and impressions (if indeed they are of past lives and not merely my own quite facile imagination) may not have been those of the victims; they may have been induced by guilt and vicarious horror experienced by those who did the actual accusing, torturing, hanging, burning, raping, etc. This would make greater karmic sense, too, at least in my case since I am an activist with a group that helps people of alternative religious beliefs fight discrimination...it is said that we are given the lessons we most need to learn in this life to move forward. For example, a ruthless warrior of many lifetimes will enter an incarnation where he/she will repeatedly encounter anger and aggression and must learn to channel it appropriately. Since most cultures do not currently parctice the old-fashioned, ritualized manner of human sacrfice, it can be argued that we still do practice huamn sacrifice on our streets and in our homes, that it is simply devoid of ritual significance or purpose...that in our mindless violence we are not appeasing the gods, but something in ourselves, we know not what... (There is an interesting theory that many contemporary victims of childhood sexual abuse are in fact on this "warrrior path" and their healing is directly tied to their ability to overcome directionless anger...) Stay with me, now... So, after reading this thread the last few days, I have had the following thought as well: That the reason there are so many people claiming to have been Cleopatra or Shakespeare or Catherine the Great or Crispus Attucks or the Marquis de Sade or King Arthur (I met one such in the UK and he is a true nutter and a lot of fun), is that, in the past as today, cults of celebrity are built up around heroic or charismatic personages. Just think of all the songs and poems dedicated to Bonny Prince Charlie, such that he is a mythic figure not just in Scotland but also in Ireland... Just as your average person in America knows way more than they should about Madonna's sex life (okay, we can blame her for that) or Robert Downey Jr's drug problem, so, too, people in earlier eras must have identified with their heroes and heroines. Except that, minus TV and the Internet and CDs and tabloids, this form of worship did in fact take the form of a more personalized, cult-like devotion: songs, poems, ballads, legends, myths...such that, even as we sing before the mirror into our hairbrush and dance about in our underwear pretending, perhaps, to be Madonna for a few minutes...our ancestors had similar fantasies and vicarious thoughts about their celebrities... So, when in fact we think we are a reincarnation of Tutenkamen or Isodora Duncan or Nijinsky or Confucius or Aristotle, what we may not realize is, we are a reincarnation of one of their groupies or sycophants... thoughts???
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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives From: Kim C Date: 06 Oct 00 - 01:09 PM I think that reincarnation is simply one of those things that is beyond our current scope of understanding. |
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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives From: Ebbie Date: 06 Oct 00 - 01:03 PM To Wolfgang, Sophocleese and everyone else I offended: I apologize. I truly did not wish to offend and obviously I did. I got a tad carried away. I appreciate that your tone(s) have stayed courteous throughout. I was trying to make a point. It may be that my desire for a relaxed interchange of views and experiences was at fault- perhaps that kind of thing is not possible in a public forum. But ah, it was fun while it lasted. And I wish it were possible. Ebbie |
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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives From: mousethief Date: 06 Oct 00 - 01:03 PM Actually it's a blush/rosé. Some labels make a very bland version (Sutter Home, Beringer). Others do a better job. (Turning Leaf is my fave.) Real wine snobs say disparaging things like it's not really wine at all. But I don't drink wine to be liked, I drink wine I like.
Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives From: Little Neophyte Date: 06 Oct 00 - 12:57 PM Wolfgang thank you very much for that posting. It was informative and it also does help me better understand where you are coming from. Alex I never realized Zinfandel came in white. It is amazing the things I am learning in this lifetime. I know guys, how about those of us who want to debate this topic go to the Hearme Song Circle room and those who want to tell their past life experiences go to the Hearme Concert room. We could schedule a date and time and then have all this conversing going on at once. Transending from room to room if we choose. The Real Queen of Sheba |
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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives From: mousethief Date: 06 Oct 00 - 11:51 AM This is really 2 distinct threads in one: 1. Stories about memories (or memory-like mental movements, to allow for the skeptical possibility) attributed to past lives 2. Arguing about whether skepticism should be expressed, and how, and whether various posts in this thread are or are not appropriate, etc. I like the first thread far better. It's interesting an da little eerie. I had more than enough aimless arguing with my first wife. But what do I know? I drink White Zinfandel.
Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives From: Wolfgang Date: 06 Oct 00 - 11:34 AM Ely, thanks for stating clearly that you wanted to see what others thought, both pro and con in this thread. That's how at least I had read you. Why is it always the credulists who say that they don't want to hear any more arguments from the other side? I haven't yet read such an argumentation from sceptics in these threads. BigDaddy, I assume for a moment that your first two questions were meant serious and you are waiting for a response. My response to both questions is, no, I wouldn't. For the very same reasons for which I do not write anything in the healing threads nor do comment upon statements of (mostly Christian) faith by Mudcatters. I have a high respect for these and other faiths and I'd never even discuss them unless explicitly invited. If anybody says "I believe in God" ,or "I believe, for Jesus has saved my life", or "I believe in God, for he has created the world and holds us all in his arms", I'd listen with respect and silence. If, however, I'd hear "I believe in God, for I have witnessed the wonders in Lourdes" or "I believe in God, since studies have shown that those who are prayed for even if they don't know about the prayers are healed faster", I'd feel free to comment upon weaknesses of these studies or upon alternative explanation for medical wonders. What's the difference? I do not attack the faith here, I attack one argument or one reason given for a faith. And since all faiths (similar to political convictions) are based upon a whole bundle of arguments and feelings, even the total destroying of a single argument would (and should, I add) never weaken a basic faith. Even if I happen to have the same conviction as another person I still can attack a particular argument she offers for that conviction. I consider it sloppy thinking not to see this difference. Imagine for a moment I could convince you that all past life memories are inventions (and Ferrara has pointed out correctly that the proof that there are false memories generated under hypnosis is not a proof that all memories generated this way are imaginations), would that mean you have to stop believing in reincarnation? Not at all. We all could as well be reincarnations of previous lives but without memories of them. My aim is just that alternative interpretations for experiences get a hearing as well, that's how I understand open-mindedness. If I had tried to attack reincarnation more directly and not just arguments for it I would have made it this way: (warning; believers in reincarnation might find the next paragraph offending and may want to skip it) The death age distribution in remembered past lives is all wrong. We know fairly well at which ages the people died in past centuries. E.g., up to one third of them before the second birthday. The death age distributions in remembered past lives do not match the real distributions. The distributions of professions is all wrong (not enough peasants and farmers; but too many maids; too many persons close to known persons); it doesn't match the actual distribution of professions in the respective times, but it is a fairly close match to the distribution of professions in today's fictional literature about past ages. Too many people today were in former lives the queen of Sheba or some other known person (but perhaps souls can split in later lives). There are fairly good guesses as to the total number of humans that have lived altogether on earth and that live today. In combination with the average amount of previous reincarnations reported or postulated per person living today, the mathematical fit of the relevant numbers is close to impossible (unless, of course, you allow for soul splitting again; or, that only those believing in reincarnation are reincarnations). end of offending paragraph Ebbie, what you write about my motives for my posts when you say I would suggest that you start your own thread titled something like 'Debunking All Views Counter to Mine' is offending and mean. Ferrara, I guess you mean Ian Stevenson (not: Stephensen; sorry for correcting the spelling, but he'll be easier to find this way). He definitely should not passed over when it comes to xenoglossy or reincarnation. I can't locate the title you have given, but in his book 'Children who remember previous lives' the same few cases are reported. Who wants to read a much shorter version could look into the Proceedings of the American Society for Psychical Research, 1974, 31, for his review of xenoglossy. But who wants to have a more complete picture might also want to read why critics have been far from convinced by Stevenson's data: S.G. Thomason, in: American Speech, 1984, 59, 340-359 Wilson, Mind out of time, Doubleday, 1981 Wolfgang |
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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives From: Amos Date: 06 Oct 00 - 02:22 AM Wow -- another bloody pedant!!! Dang!!! A |
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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives From: GUEST,Methuselah Discarnate Date: 05 Oct 00 - 07:20 PM The issue of reincarnation is really just the symptomatic surface of a deeper issue. A great deal of agreement and momentum has accrued in Western thought built on a fundamental belief that the existence of a human being is defined by the scale and scope of the human body. With this point of departure, psychology becames a branch of neurology, and the Skinners and Cricks of the world can rest easy knowing only the physically measurable need apply for reflection and analysis. If a single case of a remembering self is found which stands up against analysis as demonstrating a transition from onle lifetie to the next, as in the cases cited in Stephensen above, then a serious creaking and shifting starts up in consequence. IF a remembering self transitions across the lifetime boundary intact, then it is clear the seat of that recollection is not the body; and possibly, not even a physical time-frame element at all (I suppose you could argue for a soliton of high-frequency RF but it is not consisten with the consciousness involved). This possibility means that a person who is identified with a near-term genetic structure (I am the son of Bill and Emma Codwallop) or the current body itself (I AM a brunette with long feet) is going to have some shaking down to do in coming to terms with what they might really be if these safe assumptions are not true. If the nature of our kind is NOT defined by the body....then what is it? This question is so much work, and so unsettling to some people that it is understandable they would "rather err with Galen than be right with Harvey" as one scholar in London put it about a similar paradigm problem in the 17th century. M.D. |
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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives From: Bearheart Date: 05 Oct 00 - 03:45 PM Hi Guys, Been busy tese last two weeks teaching a healing intensive, but missing mudcat friends I managed to get a few moments and this thread was first up. Seemed significant... I have done several past life regressions over the years, and had some interesting experiences with them, but the most notable was this one: My husband (an anthropologist and scientist by training) and I met in the spring of 1980. He had been exploring shamanism and other alternative ways of looking at the world, and a mutual friend introduced us. It happened that she did past life regression work, sound healing and some other stuff. We felt an immediate attraction and connection, and about 2 months after we met she offered to lend us a tape she had put together for couples to do hypnotic regression to a common past life. It worked just like the regular kind-- a hypnotic suggestion to guide the process-- but we linked hands while doing it. In this style of regression you do it all while in deep hypnotic trance so the individual(s) are not dialoging at all with the guide. In fact she wasn't even present. We were both in the hypnotic state simultaneously, for about 30 minutes, having our private experiences. The suggestion was to remember a lifetime we had had together. When we came up out of the hypnotic state we began to share our experiences. We found that our experiences under hypnosis were identical. We were literally finishing each other's sentences. I won't go into all the details, as it is rather private, but we both "remembered' a life time in classical Greece. The life circumstances we recalled individually, including our genders, occupations, social status etc, all agreed. While my husband is quite open-minded, he was also really sceptical about reincarnation. He mostly went through this to please me (we were courting at the time, remember!) but was rather shaken by the experience. I just figure it's another of those mysteries of nature we don't yet have answers/explanations for yet. Knowledge is an evolutionary process, and we are after all only human. There are limits to what we can measure and quantify. Of course it interesting that tribal people have had access to knowledge though their spiritual practices, some of which is now being verified by science. Our culture often discounts ancient knowledge as superstition; it only respects the new, the scientific. It's rather the same thing as disrespecting old people, or aboriginal cultures, as if they have nothing to offer us. As if somehow they are the way they are out of ignorance or unwillingness to learn. Perhaps they know something we don't know. |
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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives From: Little Neophyte Date: 05 Oct 00 - 03:03 PM I once went out for lunch with a good friend of mine. At the time we were both working as clinical dietitians in the same hospital. I told my friend Veronica about this tingling I get at the tip of my nose when someone is thinking about me. She say "Bonnie, go get a blood test! I think you may have a B12 deficiency". I said, "Thanks Veronica, never thought of that" I knew I did not have a B12 deficiency. I didn't feel hurt by her not believing in what was going on with me either. I just knew Veronica and I have a very different way of looking at things. Thats okay LN |
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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives From: Wavestar Date: 05 Oct 00 - 02:52 PM Sophocleese, I just wanted to assure you that I didn't honestly think you were saying that, your phrasing made it clear that this was a "whatif". My question was rhetorical, and I realise that my language might have been insulting. I'm sorry if it was. I do mean what I said, but as you say, the invitation was for discussion. Unfortunately, I think Ebbie's side feels that often 'discussion' from sceptics involves believers being referred to as stupid, gullible, etc, which is often true and always regrettable. -J |
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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives From: sophocleese Date: 05 Oct 00 - 02:02 PM Umm, I must hasten to say that in my post where I said "why keeping beating on the dead horse of a belief in reincarnation when it has clearly been disproved by several people?" I said "for example" in front of it. My point, however clumsily expressed, was that Ebbie's arguments in favour of silencing sceptics in this thread were heavily biased, and it would be equally offensive of the sceptics to say the same things about the non-sceptics. However I also screwed up with the phrase "keeping beating", sorry, I'll try to proofread next time. One of the pitfalls in a discussion like this is that of falling into sides, believer vs non-believer, if you're not for me you're against me. There may be some people who think in terms like that but I think many of us in this thread are a little less absolute and are curious. The more information I read, results of experiments and personal experiences, the more I start to question what I had thought before. For those who feel that the prescence of a sceptic or two on an open thread asking for thoughts on past lives is hurtful to them, think for a minute about the hurt you inflict when you tell intelligent, questioning people to shut up because you don't agree with them. Contrary to popular belief sceptics and scientists are people too and have feelings and sensitivities that can be wounded as easily as those of devout believers. |
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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives From: Wavestar Date: 05 Oct 00 - 01:11 PM I'm just curious, but riddle me this. Modern science and its proponents admit frequently, and take great delight in saying, "There is so much we haven't seen yet! So much we have yet to explore!" And yet, these same proponents see NOTHING contradictory in saying, "This has been conclusively disproven, because as far as we can see, there's no evidence for it, and it can't be explained, so that's evidence against it!" I've heard it, over and over. How hard is it to think, JUST MAYBE, that these things you can't explain, these things you don't understand, may fall into the category of things science hasn't figured out just yet? So much of what was once considered clearly myth by the most scientific and rational of minds has now been re-examined, understood, and accepted. Why must we all persist in this pig-headed approach that says, "It's NOT true!" when for all you know, it could be, and if the all-god 'science' explains it tomorrow, you'll turn around and say it is? Please, everyone can learn to accept that no one knows everything. And just remember, there's always more out there for us to find... -Jessica PS. That said, I won't say I believe in past lives - but I won't say I don't, and I won't say it hasn't occured to me. |
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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives From: hesperis Date: 05 Oct 00 - 11:10 AM I wish I did remember something, because I think it would be fascinating to have that personal memory of another time and place. But maybe I don't need to remember or want to remember, etc... LEJ - Thanks for your interest in my world. I have several times tried to write about it, but writing to me is something equivalent to sweating blood, and I just can't keep the momentum up at this time in my life. I have, however, written(/translated) a few songs from the history of that world. I need to edit and write them down and arange them and record them. I have three good ballads in various states of completion. And more on the way. There were a few interesting instruments, too. One was similar to the viol family, made out of a sort of eelskin, wood, horn and eelgut, and it actually incorporated water into the resonator chamber in some way. It was invented by the Mòrlain race, who are amphibious. The giant eels were their prey and their enemies. I should learn something about making instruments, and see if I can create some of them. ~*sirepseh*~ |
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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives From: Ferrara Date: 05 Oct 00 - 10:56 AM Sorry. I lost it there for a few minutes. You see, I found this old soapbox in the basement and I couldn't resist just climbing up on it and... |
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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives From: Ferrara Date: 05 Oct 00 - 10:12 AM Well, if we're taking science, let's talk science (for a momen or two). A fair discussion of the pros and cons would require that everyone concerned read Dr.Ian Stephenson's masterly treatise, [I'll try to get the title right], "An Investigation of Some Claimed Memories of Former Incarnations." That's for starters. But the book is almost two inches thick and very very expensive, so we're not going to do that, are we? And, it doesn't prove anything! -- It just proves that of about 21 Indian (in India) children who claimed to remember a past life, about 12 or 15, (I don't remember the number and it isn't really important), remembered being a specific, verifiable individual who was separated from them by distance, language, customs, etc, and they could relate very specific details of that person's life history. And when Dr. Stephenson checked it out, he found that there had been such a person and many of the details checked. This doesn't prove anything! -- But it is an example of investigating rather than spouting off.... False memories during hypnosis don't prove that all "other-life" memories are false, either. But it's worth knowing about, and as long as you remember that it's a valid consideration, it doesn't have to feel like an attack on one's beliefs.... It can only be threatening if you let it. To my knowledge, Dr. Stephenson did not make a case for reincarnation as an interpretation of his findings. He just investigated the cases, very, very thoroughly. Now, I don't think Dr. Stephenson "proved" anything. I'm just saying that there are layers and layers of evidence, interesting personal experiences, arguments, religious beliefs, scientific investigations, "I want to believe"'s and "I don't want to believe"'s out there and that an argument over "does it happen" or "Doesn't it happen" is pretty well doomed not to take them all into account. So, those of us who find it interesting and worth thinking about, may have run across some of the more convincing stuff, including personal subjective experience; or may just have a temperament that finds it interesting. I too have had experiences that I don't want to share here. They didn't prove anything, even to me. But they opened a glimpse of a cosmos that may be more subtle, complex and rewarding than it seems on the face of it in today's world. I would like that, if it turns out to be true. |
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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives From: katlaughing Date: 05 Oct 00 - 09:58 AM Thank you, Big Daddy. It's what I've been thinking but been unable to articulate. It feels as uncomfortable as LilNeo indicated. Anyone seen my tiara? |
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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives From: Troll Date: 05 Oct 00 - 08:09 AM You were the Queen of Sheba? I've got a cousin who claims to have been a teapot but he's a little strange.*BG* troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives From: Little Neophyte Date: 05 Oct 00 - 07:59 AM How about this, a thread titled 'Wanted, Past Life Experiences', would that have made a difference? Maybe I should start a thread 'Wanted, Near Death Experiences', thats a pretty good topic too. But at the same time I would start another thread 'What Are Your Thoughts on Near Death Experiences?' Would that then make everybody happy? I don't think you can ever make everybody happy. I learned that lesson in my past life when I was Queen Sheba. Little Neo |
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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives From: Troll Date: 05 Oct 00 - 07:40 AM The original posting said, and I quote,"Does anyone have thoughts on past lives." To me, this means a discussion of experience and belief, NOT a one-sided love-fest of the "I was a Celtic Princess" variety. If your belief in reincarnation can't stand a little questioning and skepticism, go start a thread of your own.This thread called for discussion.'Nuff said. troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives From: Little Neophyte Date: 05 Oct 00 - 06:57 AM Good point there BigDaddyO I have not shared much about what I sense from my previous lives. I think about those lives but I would only discuss something like that where I feel completely comfortable. This thread is not one of those places. Little Neo |
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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives From: Matt Woodbury/Mimosa Date: 05 Oct 00 - 06:37 AM The Harplist has recently had a spate of stories about people appoaching harpists and telling them about their past lives, etc. Most of the stories do tend to relate to Renaissance faires.
I tried to do a past life regression several years ago, and when while I was in trance, the hypnotist asked if it was ok to go past my birth, I said no. I often wonder if my past lives aren't particulary useful to me in this life on a concious level. Mimosa |
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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives From: BigDaddy Date: 05 Oct 00 - 01:30 AM Skeptics, would you crash a party of born-again Chtistians and buttonhole each guest to argue your case against God, the Bible, etc.? Or attend a Hindu vegetarian feast to tout the joys of meat-eating? Seems kind of like responding to a bodhran, banjo or accordion thread simply to post reasons why you don't like those instruments. I'm with Ebbie. Perhaps we should take a poll (via a thread of its own) on how we all feel about this. Unlike certain religious groups, those who are aware of their own past life connections do not, as a rule, attempt to proselytize or convert anyone to their beliefs. They just find it enjoyable and refreshing to be able to share their experiences with like-minded people. Within the past one hundred years, the wonderful world of science has "proven" that gorillas do not exist, that "hysterical" women are better off without their ovaries, and that "caucasian" brains are superior to "negroid" brains. 'Nuff said? |
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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives From: Ely Date: 04 Oct 00 - 11:03 PM Where was it clearly disproved? By the repressed memories people? By the people who acknowledge that the brain stores a lot of stuff on the sly that comes back to us later? There are lots of explanations but I don't think they completely exclude the possibility of past lives. I don't even know if I believe in past lives myself. I started this thread because I cannot explain those things about myself and wanted to see what others thought, both pro and con. I am the daughter of two scientists and have a pretty decent scientific background myself. The paranormal is my last explanation for odd occurrances (nothing against the paranormal, I just don't work that way). But science admittedly doesn't know everything, either. If there are scientists who can reconcile it with God and nobody seems to be questioning the validity of their scientific work, why can't there be scientific people who aren't completely skeptical about reincarnation (or ghosts, or whatever)? |
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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives From: Amos Date: 04 Oct 00 - 09:44 PM The belief in reincarnation has been conclusively disproven? WOW!!! Dang!!! How? I will place a hundred dollars in the mail to the author of so conclusive a proof, if it is so well written that there are no flawed assumptions or logical fallacies or violation of data integrity in it. A. |
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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives From: Troll Date: 04 Oct 00 - 09:16 PM Why is it so difficult for people to accept that there may be a scientific explanation for their experiences of something beyond? I would think that they would welcome a clear and concise explanation of what must, at times, be a troubling and frightful experience. If past lives COULD be proven scientifically, the benefits could be tremendous. We could learn to reliably tap into the knowledge those lives contained and the answers to many age-old questions would be revealed. But I fear this will never be since most reincarnation believers seem to prefer NOT to know why as witness some of the reactions to Wolfgangs post. *sigh* troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives From: Mbo Date: 04 Oct 00 - 07:56 PM I met you Before the fall of Rome And I begged you To let me take you home You were wrong I was right You said goodbye I said goodnight Woo hoo hoo It's all been done Woo hoo hoo It's all been done Woo hoo hoo It's all been done before I knew you Before the west was won And I heard you say The past was much more fun You go your way I'll go mine But I'll see you next time Woo hoo hoo It's all been done Woo hoo hoo It's all been done Woo hoo hoo It's all been done before If I put my fingers here And if I say "I love you, dear" And if I play the same three chords Will you just yawn and say Woo hoo hoo It's all been done Woo hoo hoo It's all been done Woo hoo hoo It's all been done before Alone and bored On a thirtieth-century night. Will I see you On The Price Is Right? Will I cry? Will I smile? As you run Down the aisle. Woo hoo hoo It's all been done Woo hoo hoo It's all been done Woo hoo hoo It's all been done before Woo hoo hoo It's all been done Woo hoo hoo It's all been done Woo hoo hoo It's all been done before... --BNL
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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives From: Ebbie Date: 04 Oct 00 - 07:37 PM Who has pronounced it dead? But I do appreciate your tone. Ebbie |
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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives From: sophocleese Date: 04 Oct 00 - 07:22 PM But Ebbie your argument can be entirely and completely turned around from the other side. For example: why keeping beating on the dead horse of a belief in reincarnation when it has clearly been disproved by several people? This thread began on Sept 30 and Wolfgang did not make his first, brief post until October 2. Maybe it was time for the thread to turn in another direction and people can discuss the possiblity that what they think of as past lives may be imprinted memories or some other phenomenon. You experience his comments as flaming and I see them as discussion. As I said in my previous post, his writing was not unwelcome to some people who are reading this thread. You can certainly say that you don't like what he writes but I still consider it rude to tell him and others who are sceptical not to write to a thread where everyone (not just those who believe) has been asked to post their thoughts. |
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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives From: Lonesome EJ Date: 04 Oct 00 - 06:22 PM hesperis,I am curious about your imaginary world.Perhaps you should write a novel,or at least some short stories that take place there.Can you tell us any more about it? Who else lives there? |
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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives From: Ebbie Date: 04 Oct 00 - 06:03 PM Sophocleese, I don't mean to be rude, deeply or otherwise offensive or distasteful. My point is that when a person's views on a thread contrary to their beliefs have been clearly stated, as the skeptics' have been, then iterating them again and again comes almost under the heading of flaming, IMO. Does anyone here really think that we have not read science's current views, that we are unfamiliar with all of the textbook arguments, that we are unaware that there are many people who believe only in the material? If anyone reading this actually believes that, then their ignorance is showing. I am merely suggesting that instead of wasting their clubbing on this dead horse (EWWWW, gross...), they should start a thread where others of like bent can lay it out for themselves. In this current thread, there is no way they are going to convince any of us, we, the experiencers-of-something-beyond that our experiences are the simple result of hallucination, suggestibility and old wive's tales. We should not have to repeatedly fight the same fight. Just where is the harm in letting those who want to relate their beliefs and experiences without hindrance? And 'tain't polite, neither. Ebbie |
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Subject: RE: BS: more weirdness--past lives From: Little Hawk Date: 04 Oct 00 - 05:51 PM I don't think there's something "not right" with those people, Soph, it just kind of surprises me momentarily when I encounter it, that's all...because it seems so natural to me to have awareness of "past" lives in other times and places. There have been numerous civilizations where everyone considered reincarnation a given, and I guess I am strongly tuned in to that view of things. Democracy is a situation where we all have the right to be harmlessly crazy in our own particular way...and have fun doing it. :-) |