BS: Bush/Gore Round 1

Subject: Bush/Gore Round 1
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 03 Oct 00 - 01:32 PM

Tonight,October 3,is the first debate between the principal American Presidential Candidates.I,for one,put a lot of stock in debate performance.I want to know how the candidates react under pressure.Will many Mudcatters be watching?Maybe tomorrow,this thread can be used to assess performance.

LEJ(leaning toward Gore...but we'll see)

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Gore Round 1
From: kendall
Date: 03 Oct 00 - 01:57 PM

Gore will tear that "empty hat" to pieces.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Gore Round 1
From: Peg
Date: 03 Oct 00 - 02:05 PM

I went to the Nader/LaDuke rally Sunday in Boston...rumor had it he may be sticking around for the debate...not that they'll let him participate, of course...

In the spirit of American democracy, I plan to vote with my conscience, not out of fear, and thus will cast my vote for those people I deem the best man and woman for the job.

Ralph Nader gave us laws mandating the use of seat belts, air bags, fuel emission standards, meat and poultry inspection, radiation shields on televisions, and many other consumer-positive issues...he is directly responsible for the Safe Drinking Water Act, OSHA, the EPA, and the Consumer Product Safety Administration...as well as the Freedom of Information Act. The list goes on.

what have those other guys done for anyone lately?

peg

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Gore Round 1
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 03 Oct 00 - 02:08 PM

What's wrong with me? Everything Gov. Jesse Ventura says is starting to make sense! Guess I'm being swayed by honesty over policy.

Still gonna be glued to the debate though. Gore, by default I guess. Good thing Canucks don't get a vote.

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Gore Round 1
From: Midchuck
Date: 03 Oct 00 - 02:18 PM

If these two are, respectively, the two best that the American two-party system can come up with to lead the country, then the American two-party system has had it, and needs to be done away with.

Nader isn't the answer. Everything I've read about Nader that wasn't written by his worshippers indicates to me that he's a demagogue and a hypocrite, whereas the two major party candidates are merely dull beyond human conception.

Did anyone ever become an anarchist at age 59 when they were a Republican when they were 30? Makes no sense.

Peter.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Gore Round 1
From: kendall
Date: 03 Oct 00 - 02:21 PM

Maybe you should get to vote. After all, everything we do has an effect on you. As the late Mr. Trudeau said "Living next to the USA is like sleeping with an elephant. No matter how benevolent it is, we feel every twitch." Probably not totally accurate, but, close....eh?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Gore Round 1
From: SINSULL
Date: 03 Oct 00 - 02:25 PM

Rick,
Go on ebay. You can buy several at reasonable prices. Even pick your state of choice.
I'll be watching and listening tonight. I even watched Hillary and that other guy go at it.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Gore Round 1
From: catspaw49
Date: 03 Oct 00 - 02:27 PM

Yeah Leej....I'll be there too. Glued to the boob tube with Mudcat on the puter. I don't think we'll get anything new, but it will still be an entertaining evening. I think the VP debate will have more entertainment value though.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Gore Round 1
From: mousethief
Date: 03 Oct 00 - 02:31 PM

Rick, I heard Gov. Jesse on the radio the other day and was very surprised to find him very well-informed, well-spoken, and intelligent. After all that was said about him in the press, I expected some sort of raving idiot, and instead heard a very articulate man. But Minnesota's a long way from here, and I'd never heard the man himself before.

He does unfortunately sound exactly like the guy they have spoofing him on the PHC duct tape commercials. But that's not his fault.

Back to the topic, I am NOT planning on listening to or watching the debate. I get enough hot air from my car's heater system on these cold mornings to last me all day.

cynical in Seattle,
Alex
O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Gore Round 1
From: Jed at Work
Date: 03 Oct 00 - 02:31 PM

I like the "honesty over policy" perspective as well ... maybe I'd take it a bit further and say "principles and guidelines over policies"

But I will be watching the debate tonight, with keen interest!

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Gore Round 1
From: khandu
Date: 03 Oct 00 - 02:33 PM

I will watch. I will vote. I will hope. I will remain undaunted as the hopes fade. There is a higher power than the President of the United States. khandu

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Gore Round 1
From: mousethief
Date: 03 Oct 00 - 02:33 PM

We had "honesty over policy." Even "Principles and Guidelines Over Policy." His name was Jimmy Carter. Great man, honest as the day is long, just full of hard-to-argue-with principles and guidelines... but a lousy president.

Policy matters.

Alex
O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Gore Round 1
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 03 Oct 00 - 02:35 PM

Kendall, Heather's been watching Pierre Elliot Trudeau's funeral today, and being younger and Scottish, wasn't that aware of his affect on Canada. The outpouring of affection has been amazing (considering how controversial he was in his day).

Funny, I think the thing that I appreciate most was his honesty in the face of convention. He showed up in Parliament often dressed like Quentin Crisp with sandals, and the sombre gray politicos almost passed out. He said the Press were Vampires and often told them to "fuddle-duddle". Those that thought he was a Communist ('cause of his life-long friendship with Fidel C...who was at the funeral today) were shocked when he clamped down on the violent separatist movement. He dated Barbra Streisand and Liona Boyd (not a bad duo) but loved the company of intelectuals AND outdoor sportsmen alike. After looking at clips from the 70s, I remembered just how GORGEOUS Margaret T. was (she was 21, he 53!)

All in all, a remarkable guy. The problem these days (in my country and yours) is that he'd be considered too weird to even get financing to run for office. Like Nader and Buchannan he'd be left out in the cold.

Rick

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Gore Round 1
From: Peg
Date: 03 Oct 00 - 02:35 PM

Just wanted to respond to Midchuck, who wrote:

If these two are, respectively, the two best that the American two-party system can come up with to lead the country, then the American two-party system has had it, and needs to be done away with. --no argument there!

Nader isn't the answer. --but is he maybe a better choice than the other two? No candidate is gonna be perfect.

Everything I've read about Nader that wasn't written by his worshippers indicates to me that he's a demagogue and a hypocrite, --and Al Gore isn't a hypocrite???

I would be interested in hearing examples of this demagoguery and hypocrisy you attribute to Nader...

At least Nader is not a death-monger in the pocket of big money...

whereas the two major party candidates are merely dull beyond human conception. --true enough.

Did anyone ever become an anarchist at age 59 when they were a Republican when they were 30? Makes no sense. --not sure who you refer to here, but as you yourself would probably willingly agree, the major parties have changed quite a bit in the last few decades...I would imagine MANY people have changed their political affiliations and stances in that length of time...anyone who remains stuck in the same worldview after 30 years just might be someone too stubborn or obtuse to realize the world is changing and it is sometimes important to change with it...even if it only means defining one's terms differently. A "Republican" today is surely not the same as a "Republican" of 1970...

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Gore Round 1
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Oct 00 - 02:36 PM

Or as they are supposed to say in Mexico, "Poor Mexico - so far from God, so near to the United States."

Two four letter words debating...They should have Jerry Springer in the chair. Or maybe as a third party candidate.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Gore Round 1
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Oct 00 - 02:36 PM

I'll be watching too.

As for the candidates being "dull", I much prefer that to the movie-star-john wayne- kind of thing. At this point, I just can't see much difficulty in choosing between the two. I may not care for movie star images but I do like hats filled...It will be interesting to see if dubya is eloquent and informed and insightful. Nah.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Gore Round 1
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 03 Oct 00 - 02:48 PM

Let's see how this works. I supported Gene McCarthy and got Nixon. I worked for McGovern and I got more Nixon. I made the "leap of faith" with Jimmy Carter. I got Jimmy Carter! I got gridlock, "double-digit inflation", malaise (he was right, you know), the Ayatollah and eight years of Ronald Reagan.

I am going to watch the debates. One of those two men will be my president. I will pay attention to them and decide which one of them I believe can effectively govern for the next four years. I think I know who that will be. I will check in on this thread tomorrow to see what you all think.

As much admiration as I have heard expressed about Mr. (and Mrs.) Trudeau, was he an effective leader? Or was he just another good looking, easy listening political figurehead?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Gore Round 1
From: John Hardly
Date: 03 Oct 00 - 03:32 PM

I just wish I could get over the creepy feeling that they both think they are running for KING, and that nobody disagrees.

John

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Gore Round 1
From: GUEST,Luther
Date: 03 Oct 00 - 03:46 PM

aw, Peg, don't even ask ;). I could point you to a few sources for the demagogue/hypocrite bullshit, if you want I'll dig it up. We've already had the low comedy of one self-described "socialist/anarchist" quoting material that (apparently unbenownst to our "socialist") was lifted straight off a "Rush Limbaugh Featured Ditto Site".

If you don't follow Limbaugh and his ilk, you may not have heard this stuff before, but there's plenty of it out there. It's not worth the effort to argue with anyone who swallows that stuff. Laugh at it for what it is, and let it go.

As for "anarchists", I can't really see these guys studying Kropotkin, can you? It's just noise.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Gore Round 1
From: Robby
Date: 03 Oct 00 - 03:59 PM

I will be watching and hoping that Shrub gets clipped. However, while the optimist in me hopes that most voters will watch and make an intelligent choice this November, the pessimistic side of me wonders if the debate will have a greater share of the TV audience than the first game of Major League Baseball playoffs. We'll know that answer tomorrow.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Gore Round 1
From: Peg
Date: 03 Oct 00 - 04:03 PM

Luther;

I seriously want to know. What in yours or Midchuck's estimation makes Nader a demagogue or a hypocrite? It is not enough for me for someone to just SAY such things, I like to have them backed up in some manner, call me crazy ;)

Most people don't know precisely where their political stances or beliefs come from and most of us can trace them to various media sources, for the most part...just as most people know what they know about any given candidate from what the media tells us. That would include me too, I guess (except I actually met and spoke with Ralph Nader a few years ago and so my impression of him is actually based on firsthand experience).

I am not sure why someone who is a socialist (much less an anarchist) would also be a follower of Rush Limbaugh; this makes absolutely no sense to me.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Gore Round 1
From: Fortunato
Date: 03 Oct 00 - 04:05 PM

I like Al. I am ok with hard-working, intelligent, well-informed, dedicated people. I don't happen to be one. But I'd just as soon my president was one. I'll be watching. regards, chance

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Gore Round 1
From: GUEST,Luther
Date: 03 Oct 00 - 04:44 PM

Peg, I'm a Nader supporter, sorry if my post wasn't clear -- what I was saying is the criticism of Nader as a demagogue/hypocrite comes largely from hard-right sources. Specifically there was a recent thread where the same criticism of Nader was leveled, with links provided to material lifted from a Limbaugh-associated site.

No, it makes no sense at all for someone who claims to be a "socialist" to cite Limbaugh or associates in support of an argument, that was my point -- although, if you didn't see the earlier thread, that point would have been lost entirely -- sorry!.

By "following" Limbaugh, I meant "paying attention to what he's doing", not "following" in the sense of being a fan. Hope that makes my position a little clearer ;)

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Gore Round 1
From: tradsteve
Date: 03 Oct 00 - 06:42 PM

I'll be watching the debates, for sure. I have classes tonight, but I'll tape it. I'm sure Gore will fight as dirty as possible, and both will try to score a winning soundbite, but I'm assuming Bush will be found out for what he is; twenty gallons of dumb in a ten gallon hat.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Gore Round 1
From: Mbo
Date: 03 Oct 00 - 06:47 PM

Oh boy, Mr.Cowpie vs. The Animated Wooded Statue. I couldn't care less. As my priest Father Tom says: "I hope they BOTH lose."

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Gore Round 1
From: Ebbie
Date: 03 Oct 00 - 07:11 PM

Mbo, try not to act your age. :-)

Ebbie

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Gore Round 1
From: Mbo
Date: 03 Oct 00 - 07:15 PM

"Is it any wonder that princes and kings
Are clowns that caper in their sawdust rings
And ordinary people that are like you and me
Are the keepers of our destiny?"

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Gore Round 1
From: kendall
Date: 03 Oct 00 - 07:34 PM

Time for a reality check folks. The next president gets to appoint the next batch of justices to the supreme court. Right? Ok, If dubbya is elected we will have a whole batch of Clarence Thomas' Right? There is no way Nader can win, and even if he did, he would have NO support in Congress. Talk about gridlock! I shall hold my nose and vote against Bush. As a wise person once said "You must deal with things as they are..not as you wish they were."

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Gore Round 1
From: Micca
Date: 03 Oct 00 - 07:44 PM

I have a foolproof way of voting in elections, I weigh up the candidates and quite often there isn't one I want to vote FOR, but there is always one I want to vote AGAINST

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Gore Round 1
From: Troll
Date: 03 Oct 00 - 07:48 PM

If people voted intelligently, theyed vote Libertarian.
Peg, Naders first claim to fame was "Unsafe At Any Speed" which was aimed primarily at the Corvair. He claimed that poor engineering was the cause of roll-over accidents. GM-like fools- tried a smear campaign that backfired which added creadence to his allegations about the Corvair. But he was wrong. Later tests showed that improper tire inflation was the culprit.
But Nader was off and running and after that, anything he said took on mystical status. If he said it, it must be so and anyone who argued was a tool of the dispoilers etc. You get the idea.
I read a profile on Nader on the net (ABC NEWS) a few weeks back and it was less than flattering. Having never met the man, I am in no position to judge him from first-hand experience but from what I've read, i'd say demogogue fits.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Gore Round 1
From: Áine
Date: 03 Oct 00 - 08:00 PM

I'd really appreciate it if y'all wouldn't use the stereotypical 'cow pie', 'ten gallon hat', type of remarks when you refer to the Wee Bush . . . If he was a true, native-born Texan, I'd figure he'd be fair game for that sort of thing. However, the eejit was born in CONNECTICUT, dang it! All that 'good ole boy' crap is affectation, pure and simple. So, don't go slagging on the real thang (like yours truly) -- Blame him on the Yankees (sorry, kendall - but, you know I love you)!!

-- Áine

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Gore Round 1
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 03 Oct 00 - 08:20 PM

Right On, Aine!

Nader is great! In his speech to Portland he pointed out that "W's" dad used a hemp parachute... to become 'heroic'.

I just don't understand why we have to be soooo boring in our political showcase... Don't rock the boat anybody, just 'cause. There comes a time when the fringe is more concerned about the welfare of the nation than the mainstream... GO Jessie, Go Nader, WAKE UP CALL!!!!!

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Gore Round 1
From: bflat
Date: 03 Oct 00 - 08:33 PM

As Kendall pointed out the next President will have great bearing on the laws of this land. Are we for the people or the antithesis? WE must vote responsibly for people. I want a president who can speak beyond sounds bytes.

bflat

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Gore Round 1
From: DougR
Date: 03 Oct 00 - 08:34 PM

I'll be watching, but unlike many others, I'm not prejudging the results. I doubt the minds of mudcatters will be changed one way or the other, regardless of who "wins" the debate. The winner of the debate will likely be in the eye of the beholder.

DougR

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Gore Round 1
From: katlaughing
Date: 03 Oct 00 - 08:49 PM

My Rog says, with a good dose of sarcasm, we should re-elect Clinton and Congress should pass a special law allowing him to keep a harem in the White House!**BG**

We are planning to watch some, but I don't think I'll be able to stomach much. My prediction is that Bush will not be able to debate well, without sounding like an idiot because of the way he messes up rhetoric.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Gore Round 1
From: bflat
Date: 03 Oct 00 - 08:59 PM

go to your TV.It is on!

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Gore Round 1
From: Mbo
Date: 03 Oct 00 - 09:03 PM

Go to sleep...it's more fun.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Gore Round 1
From: catspaw49
Date: 03 Oct 00 - 09:53 PM

I notice that the History Channel has a "History of Sex" on at 10.........

Anybody change their mind yet? Uh,huh..............

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Gore Round 1
From: Mbo
Date: 03 Oct 00 - 09:57 PM

Spaw, sounds more interesting! Is Bill Clinton the narrator?

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Gore Round 1
From: catspaw49
Date: 03 Oct 00 - 10:03 PM

No Meebo, I think its hosted by the ghosts of dead presidents.......Kennedy, Eisenhower, FDR..........

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Gore Round 1
From: kendall
Date: 03 Oct 00 - 10:40 PM

Clearly, Dubbya scored some points. He did not fall down as expected. However, he did try to bait Gore into attacking him, and Gore refused. Dubbya knew that the voters dont like attack dogs, and he wanted to provoke Gore to gain sympathy. W. held up well, but, he's still a loser in my book.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Gore Round 1
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 03 Oct 00 - 11:17 PM

I can already see Gore's head on the coins... He is wearing the profile with distinction. Bush came off as laughably misinformed, and tried to trade on his 'Character' while referring to little in the way of facts and situations.

Gore is a fine presidential candidate. Nader makes him seem corporate though...

;>)

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Gore Round 1
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 03 Oct 00 - 11:20 PM

LEJ's scorecard...

Medicare.....Gore bested Bush in this area,I think.Bush's comment "this guy's got all the numbers" was pretty weak.

Energy......Even.Bush's nastiness at wanting to drill in Alaska's pristine wilderness was offset by his national security allusion.Gore could have scored more points,but I think he's tentative about his tree-hugger image.

RU486 and Abortion....Gore won here.His frankness about appointing pro-RoevWade justices to the Supreme Court made Bush look devious about his answer.

Milosevitch and Military Intervention....Slight edge to Gore as he identified genocide-prevention as a vital interest for US.Bush scored some points on military morale.

Education....I think Bush won this one,primarily because of his comment that the answer to the problem is not to throw more money at a floundering system.I don't like vouchers,but Gore was hesitant to attack because his kids attended private schools.

Crisis-handling...slight edge to Bush.His Texas fire response sounded more like true crisis management than Gore's dinner with the Russian President about Bosnia.

Financial Crisis and the Economy...Gore won here,seemimg to have more of a handle on the subject.

Social Security...Gore wins again.Bush seems to be shying away from his Stock-investing option for Social Security.Gore's statement that monies currently paid into SS were immediately paid out,meaning money diverted for long-term investment out of the fund would eventually bankrupt it made sense to me.

Character...Gore wins.This should have been a big issue for Bush,but he seemed to be reluctant to start sparring with Gore.Gore turned the table on Bush by committing to the McCain-Feingold Campaign Reform Bill,and daring Bush to come out for it.

Closing Statements...both yawners.

Overall,I give Gore the edge,but felt that Bush had some good moments.He may become a pretty fair debater before its over.The next debate allows more direct confrontation,and I think Bush will need to really maintain his composure,while Gore will have to be careful not to be seen as a bully.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Gore Round 1
From: Cap't Bob
Date: 03 Oct 00 - 11:29 PM

Actually I'm a channel switcher ~ The "History of Sex" wasn't all it was cracked up to be.

Whenever I see or hear Bush, Alfred E. Neuman comes to mind. Anyone else get that feeling?

Cap't Bob

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Gore Round 1
From: catspaw49
Date: 03 Oct 00 - 11:38 PM

I didn't see anything earth shattering. Bush played the format better than expected. Gore looks and sounds the part. Leej has some pretty good observations. Bush seemed to be a bit frantic/unraveled at the end. I'm looking forward to the roundtable, but I think we'll see more in the "Town Hall" debate.

Lieberman-Cheney should still be interesting though. One has a personality and the other has been out west.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Gore Round 1
From: BlueJay
Date: 04 Oct 00 - 02:01 AM

Gore by a nose, but not much more. I think Bush was handicapped going to the gate by his reluctance to accept the major network format of the debates, as well as the general expectation that Gore is the better debater.

I think Dubya did better than expected, and I was a little turned off by Gore's frequent interruptions of both the moderator and Bush. While entertaining, I myself thought it to be inconsiderate in a first debate. I suppose it could either show great enthusiasm, or great desperation.

I will vote for Gore, as I agree with him more on the issues. But I hope the next debate has fewer one-liners, such as "lock-box", and "fuzzy math", both so obviously written by campaign managers. Basically, the debate was a regurgitation of all the same campaign stuff we've already heard. Not much exciting, maybe the remaining debates will be better.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Gore Round 1
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 04 Oct 00 - 06:55 AM

Was that Bush fella performing badly, or do people in America really find that whiny style appealing? I've never seen more than a sound bite of him before, but all these TV pundits seem to keep on about what a good guy he comes across as, and how likeable he is, and that. Good grief!

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Gore Round 1
From: kendall
Date: 04 Oct 00 - 09:45 AM

Since when is "Likeable" an important part of being president? Carter was likeable, Ford, Reagan..all disasters in my book.

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Gore Round 1
From: GUEST,emily b
Date: 04 Oct 00 - 10:07 AM

Leej, I think you summed this up marvelously. What I can't believe is how much discussion there is about the surplus. Admittedly, I'm very ignorant about such matters, but given that we're in the longest period of prosperity ever, why does anyone think there will even be a surplus next year, or 4 years from now? Talk about counting your chickens before they hatch. I'd like to know what these guys plan to do when everyone figures out the stock market as it is today is just a big pyramid scheme. OK, not all of it, but a lot of it.

I'd also like to know who these debates are aimed at. Anyone who is undecided at this point, probably isn't interested in sitting through 90 minutes of debate. What I'd rather see is 3 evenings of serious discussion each of a different topic. Let these candidates really get into the details. Let them show that there is substance behind the sound bytes. Would America tune in? I doubt it.

I can't believe I missed the "History of Sex..."

Emily

Subject: RE: BS: Bush/Gore Round 1
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 04 Oct 00 - 10:19 AM

Geez, I can't imagine four years of that smarmy little wiseguy George Jr. "Mediscare"?? "Fuzzy Math"?? Just answer the questions and wipe that smirk off your face. Your daddy didn't really have the authority to flip you the keys to the White House, you know. . .

And Gore? He needs to fire all of his handlers, (especially his make up guy) and hire someone to remove the lumber from his - well, you know. He looks like the wax museum image of himself. Put on a goofy looking tie or something. It makes me crazy when we have a candidate who is good on the issues, has some character and yet comes off like a complete stiff. This election is too close. He will not change the average American's mind by being right on the numbers.

It's funny to hear the "faint praise" being thrown at Gov. Bush this morning. Basically, it seems his supporters are thrilled because he didn't fall on his ass. All I kept thinking as I watched Gore was that a guy with a little charisma (like Reagan) and a mastery of the facts (like Nixon) would have slaughtered him. And that, children, is where demagogues come from.

IMHO, if you vote with your eyes and ears, Bush won last night. If you vote with the stuff behind your eyes and ears, it was Gore. Nader, Bradley, and McCain were not in the building.