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BS: Columbus Day Fiasco
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Subject: Columbus Day Fiasco From: Lonesome EJ Date: 06 Oct 00 - 11:14 PM Tomorrow is Columbus Day,and a large parade is scheduled in Denver.Denver's North End was once populated by a large Italian community.In the late 1800s,Italian immigrants were at the bottom of the social ladder,but they clung to one icon as a measure of Italian importance to America...Christopher Columbus,the famous explorer responsible for discovery of the continent.The Columbus Day Parade became the focus of Italian Pride in Denver,just as it was in many other cities across the country.The tradition continued until the early 1990s,when confrontation and controversy generated by AIM(The American Indian Movement) and other Native American groups resulted in the termination of the parade. This year,a group of Italian-Americans obtained a permit to hold the parade.Immediately,negotiations were held with AIM to avoid protests and confrontation.The meetings initially seemed to result in the retreat of the Italian-American sponsors,who agreed to rename it the Italian Pride Parade.And then,days ago, the Italian Americans withdrew from the compromise,saying that their agreement had been co-erced by AIM and the City of Denver.Now the rhetoric has escalated,with neither side backing down.A heavy police presence will be in evidence at the parade tomorrow,but the stage seems set for a powder-keg situation at Denver's Columbus Day Parade. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Columbus Day Fiasco From: Haruo Date: 06 Oct 00 - 11:29 PM How did tomorrow get to be Columbus Day? (It's still Friday in Denver as I write this.) I thought CC discovered this place on the second Monday in October, anno Domini 1492. (Actually, it was October 12, but that was Old Style, as not even the papists had started messing with the calendar yet at that point.) The calendar my employer supplied me shows Monday as "Columbus Day (observed)", "Thanksgiving Day (Canada)", and "Yom Kippur" (the latter ending, of course, at sundown). I have no idea what to suggest to AIM and the parade organizers. I would like to see everybody get a little less touchy and a little more willing to overlook those features of other ethnicities that their ethnic sensitivity makes offensive. But then I don't really belong to any ethnic group... Liland |
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Subject: RE: BS: Columbus Day Fiasco From: katlaughing Date: 06 Oct 00 - 11:37 PM Hey, LeeJ, let's not call it a fiasco just yet, eh? And, I am curious, too, like Liland, how did the 7th get to be Columbus Day? And, I wish they would get over the erroneous claim that Columbus "discovered" the "new world." Anyway, here is the latest news I could find on it. It's a couple of hours old. I hope it still holds true:
Denver Meets On Columbus Day Parade DENVER –– Italian-Americans and American Indian and Hispanic activists met to try to ensure a peaceful Columbus Day parade – the city's first in nearly a decade – as police made contingency plans for possible violence. Denver clergy brought the sides together in a series of meetings Thursday and Friday but won only vague pledges of nonviolence. Members of the American Indian Movement were still vowing civil disobedience at Saturday's parade. Italian sponsors of the parade were going forward. "We're having a parade and they are going to have a protest," said Joe Vendegnia, founder of the Denver chapter of the Sons of Italy/New Generation. "And it's going to be peaceful." The city hasn't held the parade since 1991 because of concerns that marchers would clash with groups who believe Christopher Columbus was a killer and slave trader. Russell Means of AIM did not rule out the possibility of protesters blocking the parade route. "I learned from an elder that you cannot hate, you can only pity, and I pity those who think a loser like Columbus should be celebrated," Means said. The groups did agree to meet next week to avoid similar controversy next year. "It's hard to undo betrayal in a couple of days," said Leroy Lemos, executive director of the Hispanic activist group Poder Project. "We feel the honor of our signature has been betrayed." Lemos was referring to a federally mediated pact, by which Denver's Italian community had agreed to call Saturday's celebration an Italian Pride parade and make no mention of Columbus. But that pact collapsed. Some communities have withdrawn fire trucks from the parade, fearing damage and injuries. Mayor Wellington Webb has pleaded for calm, and the governor pledged state help to maintain the peace. Denver's Columbus parades have been tumultuous. In 1989, Means and three others were arrested after throwing fake blood on a Columbus statue. The next year, protesters shouted anti-Columbus slogans as the parade went by. The 1992 parade was canceled moments before it was to start because of concerns about violence. Vendegnia said city officials discouraged his group from seeking parade permits after that, but the organization decided to apply this year after new people took over top city jobs. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Columbus Day Fiasco From: kendall Date: 06 Oct 00 - 11:39 PM If the friggin' schools would teach REAL history, we wouldn't have this kind of crap to deal with. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Columbus Day Fiasco From: Peter Kasin Date: 06 Oct 00 - 11:47 PM At least it's not a Barry Manilow day parade. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Columbus Day Fiasco From: Haruo Date: 06 Oct 00 - 11:53 PM REAL history? ;-) Umm Liland |
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Subject: RE: BS: Columbus Day Fiasco From: Carlin Date: 07 Oct 00 - 12:01 AM Why do the Hispanics have a problem with Colombus? If it wasn't for him they wouldn't be here.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Columbus Day Fiasco From: Haruo Date: 07 Oct 00 - 12:16 AM Carlin: Why do the Hispanics have a problem with Colombus? If it wasn't for him they wouldn't be here.... A lot of them might still be here, they just might not be Hispanics. In one of Vine Deloria's books (I think it was) I read an account of a Hispanic politician in New Mexico saying (in an effort to be "inclusive") "We have a Spanish father and an Indian mother" to which a Native American retorted, "Yeah, and in a situation like that you know who gets screwed" or words to that effect. At first I thought maybe they had a problem with Italian Pride Day not because it was about Columbus, but because it excluded them (after all, he was sailing for Spain, not Italy — indeed in that era there was no Italy as a political unit. Still hoping to find out what real history is. History that eats no quiche? Liland Real Live Esperantist |
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Subject: LYR ADD: 1492 by Nancy Schimmel From: katlaughing Date: 07 Oct 00 - 12:33 AM 1492 A song by Nancy Schimmel (Sister's Choice)
In fourteen hundred and ninety two Chorus:
The Innuit and Cherokee,
Columbus knew the world was round,
It isn't like it was empty space,
So tell me who discovered what? Recorded by Sally Rogers on the CD, Rainbow Sign,(Rounder, 1992). |
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Subject: RE: BS: Columbus Day Fiasco From: kendall Date: 07 Oct 00 - 01:30 AM If they taught REAL history, Columbus would be a footnote. He came along 500 years AFTER the Vikings, and 40,000 years after the native Americans. The thing is,,Vikings dont vote,in large numbers, nor do native Americans |
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Subject: RE: BS: Columbus Day Fiasco From: Haruo Date: 07 Oct 00 - 01:40 AM Ah, that kind of real history... Thanks, kendall Liland |
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Subject: RE: BS: Columbus Day Fiasco From: Lonesome EJ Date: 07 Oct 00 - 02:03 AM A valid argument might be made that Columbus,in a historic sense,did discover America. The North American Indians attached no importance to a continuous factual history,and kept none outside of a collection of tribal myths and memories. Lief Ericsson likely did establish a colony at "vinland",but it had little or no impact on written history,nor did it influence it.Columbus' discovery,whether you like it or not,changed history and opened the flood gates of European exploration,colonization,and exploitation.In that sense he can safely be said to have discovered America. It was the age of exploration,and it is certain that if Columbus had failed,someone else would have soon fetched up on the shores of America.But it was him.And his life deserves examination,for his courage,his determination,his ambition,his ruthlessness,his incompetence,and all the other factors that make him a complex and enigmatic figure.I don't think he is a particularly admirable figure,but I sometimes believe he receives the lion's share of abuse from Native Americans because he did open the door to what they perceive as an invasion and occupation. LEJ (shields up) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Columbus Day Fiasco From: Lepus Rex Date: 07 Oct 00 - 02:23 AM kendall, here in MN, we've got a statue of Leif Eriksson next to the State Capitol... >;) ---Lepus Rex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Columbus Day Fiasco From: Carlin Date: 07 Oct 00 - 07:08 AM A lot of them might still be here, they just might not be Hispanics.
Well it seems to me that if somehow one could go back and see to it that your great grandfather didn't show up.....you ain't gonna be you.....there will certainly be some required dna that makes you you missing, eh?
As to their being of partial indian stock....if the conquitadores hadn't showed up, how do they know their ancestors wouldn't have gotten themselves eaten by the Aztecs or the Incas? Or the Carib for that matter?
I think Clombus catches a lot of flak for things he had no control over. It wasn't his fault that the indians were still living in the stone age in 1492. It wasn't his fault that they had no resistance to European diseases. It wasn't Colombus that handed out royal commissions to people like Cortez. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Columbus Day Fiasco From: paddymac Date: 07 Oct 00 - 07:47 AM Another fine example of the peversity, or perhaps stupidity, of ethno-centrism. One group wants to celebrate an aspect of their ethnic heritage and another wants to do the same by preventing the first group from also doing it. There's a fascinating circularity to the logic. A better approach might be for each faction to have their own parade, back to back along the same route, and draw straws to determine the order. Or perhaps the city could have a parade and give every body the opportunity to enter a float or marching unit, etc. Then after the parade, sell tickets to a giant "mud-wrasslin" pit in which the belligerants could make fools of themselves until the spectators died from laughing too much. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Columbus Day Fiasco From: Midchuck Date: 07 Oct 00 - 08:11 AM I am a native American. I was born here. My ancestry is mostly British Isles, maybe 1/64th or 1/128 aboriginal. What is this "native American" thing anyway? "Indian" makes no sense, but at least it's what we're used to. "Native American" neither makes sense or is what we're used to. Peter. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Columbus Day Fiasco From: Wavestar Date: 07 Oct 00 - 09:02 AM Actually, Midchuck, I'm quite used to native American, and I use it frequently. Just think of it as a term - I realise it's also nonsensical, but can you think of a better thing to call them? Aborigine is accurate, but I doubt it will catch on... Technically, I'm also a "native" American - I was born here, and so were five or six generations of my ancestors. But I still know what they mean, and I'll say "Native American" in reference to those people also known as Indians, American Indians, American Aboriginals, and probably sadly still, "Those damn Reds." They all have tribal names, but there is such a broad selection... -J |
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Subject: RE: BS: Columbus Day Fiasco From: catspaw49 Date: 07 Oct 00 - 09:10 AM Wonder if we'll ever get to the point that we have the same pride in being human as we do currently in ethnic heritage? The rest of the species on the planet will REALLY be in for it then................. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Columbus Day Fiasco From: kendall Date: 07 Oct 00 - 09:18 AM Columbus did break new ground. He proved that Copernicus was right about the shape of the earth. He was an oustanding explorer and all, however, he also knew that he and his gang were killing the natives with disease and overwork, not to mention outright butchery. Of course his clergymen saved their souls first. The French, however, in North America, had a different approach. They traded with the natives, gave them their religion, and generally treated them like humans. The English, gave them blankets infested with small pox. We never did figure out who gave who syphillis. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Columbus Day Fiasco From: catspaw49 Date: 07 Oct 00 - 09:26 AM No offense to your post Kendall, but why are we always saying what a nice thing it was to give an abo/tribal/native culture some bogus "religion?" All of these people had some kind of spiritual beliefs which in most cases, for me, made a helluva' lot more sense than the "gift" we gave them. Not to mention sending missionaries to China......talk about egotistical................ Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Columbus Day Fiasco From: Greg F. Date: 07 Oct 00 - 09:46 AM The North American Indians attached no importance to a continuous factual history,and kept none outside of a collection of tribal myths and memories. This is not strictly true, and sounds a bit self-serving. But even if true, ya mean, 'Just like us White folks'?? - Pick up the books America Revised and Lies My Teacher Told Me some time;you may get a whole new perspective on "tribal myths" and who uses them for what. Best, Greg |
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Subject: RE: BS: Columbus Day Fiasco From: katlaughing Date: 07 Oct 00 - 09:55 AM "Native American" is a reference of respect. If someone I know who is NA refers to themselves as "Indian" or "Amerindian" then I feel comfortable doing the same, but otherwise I use NA out of respect. To me, American, in this instance, also refers to those indigenous people who do not necessarily live in the United States, but on the continent of North and South America. Good point, Spaw. That book I quoted from has a lot about the sometimes heinous manner in which they were "given" the religion of the oppressors who had totally ignored and negated any NA spiritual practises. kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: Columbus Day Fiasco From: Allan C. Date: 07 Oct 00 - 10:22 AM "People are people, no matter how small." - Dr. Seuss |
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Subject: RE: BS: Columbus Day Fiasco From: Lepus Rex Date: 07 Oct 00 - 10:40 AM I don't know anyone who still says 'native american' (in real life, that is). Usually American Indian, Indian, or a tribe name. That's sort of 80s-90s, 'native american.' 'Indian' isn't insulting in any way. And it's just as stupid a term as 'native american.' So I say go with the name we've been using all this time. At least it's got some history, and doesn't reek of excessive political correctness. How is 'NA' more respectful, anyways? It's still taking the name of a non-American Indian (Amerigo Vespucci)... ---Lepus Rex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Columbus Day Fiasco From: kendall Date: 07 Oct 00 - 10:58 AM You miss my point spaw. The Frenceh gave the Induans their relegion, the English gave them smallpox. Which would YOU choose? They both sucked, its just a matter of degree. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Columbus Day Fiasco From: catspaw49 Date: 07 Oct 00 - 11:01 AM I dunno' Kendall........Is smallpox really all that bad? Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: Columbus Day Fiasco From: katlaughing Date: 07 Oct 00 - 11:14 AM Lepus Rex, whereabouts are you? Out here in the West, we still write and say NA. IMO, it is respectful by designating them as indigneous. I suppose one might be more correct and call them Indigenous Americans. Using NA also makes sure people understand one is not refering to someone from India. Have you asked any NA friends what they think about it? I see in the book I quoted from above, that they use both terms, NA and Indian, but they usually use Indian when pointing out the stereotypes which children have been taught in textbooks, movies, and television, etc. NA is a personal preference. One I will continue to use. There is nothing wrong with being ethically conscious and striving to do no harm with our words. kat |
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Subject: RE: BS: Columbus Day Fiasco From: Lepus Rex Date: 07 Oct 00 - 11:25 AM Kat, I'm in Minnesota. And sorry if I sounded like I was attacking your use of NA... I didn't mean it like that, just trying to throw my views out there:) Most NA/Indians/whatever I've met here say American Indian, or more usually their tribe name. When my ex-gf rattles off her ancestry, she says 'Ojibwe,' for instance. Our newspapers dropped NA years ago, too. But now that you mention it, I DID meet a NA guy from out West who liked to use 'Native American...' Maybe it's just a regional thing? Actually, I do prefer tribal names over 'American Indian.' But I still can't stand 'Native American.' ;) ---Lepus Rex
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Subject: RE: BS: Columbus Day Fiasco From: katlaughing Date: 07 Oct 00 - 12:04 PM Thanks for explaining that. I, too, prefer tribal names, but one cannot always be sure without asking and in a general way NA seems to work. It may be regional. Thanks, again, katwhosegreatX's3grandmawasfull-bloodfromupyourway |
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Subject: RE: BS: Columbus Day Fiasco From: Ely Date: 07 Oct 00 - 05:50 PM I don't really think it's fair to say the indigenous people were living in the stone age in 1492. They didn't look very sophisticated to the Europeans but they had a lot of agricultural and medicinal knowledge that the Europeans a) did not have [I think they were still bleeding to get rid of "bad humours" or something] and b) had to reinvent much later because they had ignored it and destroyed the people who knew it. Not high-profile stuff, but it was certainly not haphazard chance, either. Isn't the Bible a collection of myths and memories, too? (We've just had it written down longer). And the Greek and Roman material that forms the basis of so much of European literature? We may not believe in Pyramus and Thisbe but we sure love their story (aka "Romeo and Juliet"). I still use "Native American" if I don't know someone's tribal affiliations (I think of it as being at least less inaccurate than "Indian", since they never had anything to do with India). I'd be willing to call "America" something else, too. It kind of doesn't have its own name, anyway, since the continents are already North and South America. Kind of silly. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Columbus Day Fiasco From: Liz the Squeak Date: 07 Oct 00 - 06:03 PM In 1492 Europeans were being killed out of hand just for being left handed, warty faced or knowing a bit too much about medicine without using leeches.... Native Americans were living in relative security, had reasonably contemporaneous farming techniques and were the ultimate in recyling - used everything but the moo - to paraphrase a quote about pigs for buffalo. At least they never killed anyone for saying Jesus made jokes.... LTS |
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Subject: RE: BS: Columbus Day Fiasco From: Susan from California Date: 07 Oct 00 - 06:24 PM Ely, I'm impressed that you know how to spell indigenous :-) it is the term that I prefer to use when speaking, but since I am a horrible speller...I had to go back up to your post *three* times to check the spelling, so when I write, I almost always use NA, since I know how to spell those to words! I hope things are going well at the parade, there is far to much violence in the world these days. Sue |
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Subject: RE: BS: Columbus Day Fiasco From: katlaughing Date: 07 Oct 00 - 07:41 PM Here's the latest:
Denver Parade Goes On Amid Protests DENVER –– Police arrested more than 140 American Indian and Hispanic activists protesting Saturday's Columbus parade, the city's first since 1991. The activists, saying Christopher Columbus was a slave trader who committed genocide against their ancestors, poured a line of red liquid across the route to represent their ancestors' blood. Police arrested 147 people on misdemeanor charges, including loitering and failure to obey lawful orders, but there was no violence and no one resisted arrest, police spokeswoman Mary Thomas said. Clashes among protesters and Italian-Americans during the city's 1991 parade had forced the annual parade's cancelation until this year. Italian-Americans and the activists had reached an agreement that there would be no protests if the parade was limited to an Italian pride parade, but several representatives of the Italian community later disavowed the deal. "It was a total success," said parade organizer George Vendegnia. "We had our parade and they had their protest and nobody got hurt. We got our heritage back after nine years." Police had cut down a section of a fence that had been erected to block protesters, and permitted demonstrators to take up spots on the street used for the parade. But after a brief demonstration, police moved back in, giving the Indians the choice of leaving or being arrested. Among the 147 people arrested was American Indian Movement activist Russell Means, who said the protesters would ask for individual jury trials. The charges can bring penalties of up to a year in jail. "We broke no law today," said fellow AIM activist Glenn Morris. In 1989, Means and three others were arrested after throwing fake blood on a Columbus statue. The next year, protesters shouted anti-Columbus slogans during the parade. The 1992 parade was canceled moments before it was to start because of concerns about violence. Each October, about two dozen Columbus parades take place across the country, though none has had the intense protests of Denver, city manager of public safety Ari Zavaras said. Italian-American groups in New York and in San Francisco have removed references to Columbus and instead march for Italian pride. The Denver parade organizers and protest leaders have agreed to meet next week to avoid similar controversy next year. "It will remain a Columbus parade forever, unless they change it on the federal level," Vendegnia said. Columbus Day is a federal holiday celebrated the second Monday in October. ––– |
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Subject: RE: BS: Columbus Day Fiasco From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 07 Oct 00 - 08:48 PM If I was decended from the original inhabitants of what is now called the United States of America I don't think I'd be so upset about Columbus Day. Columbus never made it up to that end of the continent.
It'd be Thanksgiving Day that I'd be kicking up hell about. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Columbus Day Fiasco From: Carlin Date: 07 Oct 00 - 11:30 PM >>>>>I don't really think it's fair to say the indigenous people were living in the stone age in 1492. <<<<<<< Stone age is a very accurate description. There was some gold and silver smithing going on in Mexico and South America, but most tools (virtually all of them in fact) were made from bone, stone, wood, or antlers. >>>>>>Native Americans were living in relative security, had reasonably contemporaneous farming techniques and were the ultimate in recyling - used everything but the moo - to paraphrase a quote about pigs for buffalo. At least they never killed anyone for saying Jesus made jokes....<<<<<<< My my, don't we have a rosy view of the noble savage. They fought wars and killed each other and raped each other, just like every other society in the history of mankind. Your right about them not killing people for Jesus, but they would certainly bend you over an altar and cut your heart out for the sun-god idol to feast upon(at least the Aztecs would anyway). And it wasn't so much that they were environmentally friendly as they simply did not have the technology to make a major impact. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Columbus Day Fiasco From: katlaughing Date: 08 Oct 00 - 07:53 PM Nobel savage? Get all of your info from Hollywood, huh? Ever studied the Iroquois Constitution? Something the founding fathers of the U.S. used as an example to follow when writing the US Constitution. Ever think that one person's stone age may be another's deliberatly chosen way of life?
Some other suggested reading: Killing the White Man's Indian - Reinventing Native Americans; It's hard to believe anyone would still buy into the old Euro-centrist teachings about indigenous peoples. I would strongly recommend the book mentioned above, as well as "Lies My Teacher Told Me" if you are at all open to learning about the past from many other perspectives. kat
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Subject: RE: BS: Columbus Day Fiasco From: rabbitrunning Date: 09 Oct 00 - 09:21 AM Here's my gasoline to throw on the fire -- I recommend that anyone who is interested in _why_ the Columbian contact with the Americas caused such huge changes read "Guns Germs and Steel". He takes World History back to paleontology...
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Subject: RE: BS: Columbus Day Fiasco From: Carlin Date: 09 Oct 00 - 09:38 AM Well, I can see that sarcasm is utterly lost on some people.
I am glad to see that you agree with me that the Europeans bear absolutely no responsibility for the Indians being technologically backwards. After all, stone age livin' was their deliberately chosen lifestyle.....BTW if they were so happy with their existing technology why were they willing to trade 15 beaver pelts for a steel hatchet? Could it perhaps be because they spent their lives hacking at wood (and each other) with stone axes and were thus able to immediately recognize the superiority of steel for this purpose, as opposed to certain modern thinkers (and I use the term loosely) who can't seem to grasp the difference?
What exactly do you know about the Constitutional Convention in Philedelphia? Which one of the Founding Fathers stood up and said, "Look, these native chaps have this outstanding system and we should copy it...."
Have you ever heard of the Achean League, or the Aetolian League, or the Illyrian League? These were all federations of cities in ancient Greece. Each city elected representatives and sent them to a Federal Council. There were Federal executives that were elected to handle the treasury, and the military, and to enforce the Federal laws....the Founders were well aware of all of these states and the systems they used. They were also well aware of the writings of John Locke (who lived in England and probably never spoke to an Indian in his life) who wrote profoundly and eloquently on the need for a seperation of powers in government. Oh, and there was also the Roman Republic that had a bicameral legislature some 2500 years ago (there was the Senate, and the Assembly of the People).
And the really amazing thing is, the Constitution is not directly based on any of this....the Founders imbibed certain principles about how a government should be run, from ancient history and contemporary thinkers (and sure, I will even throw the Iroquois in there if it will make you happy), and then proceeded to compromise their way to a document. Why don't you read the Federalist Papers, the Anti-Federalists, and James Madison's Diary if you want to discover the thought that went into the document? After all, these people were actually there and wrote the damn thing!!! (Let me guess, nothing more than Patriarchal White-Male European propaganda, that seeks to deny women and minorities their properly exalted place in history......)
It is hard to believe that some people will soak up whatever PC nonsense comes along, just because it appeals to their sense of collective guilt, their modern notions of equity, or modern ideas of morality..... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Columbus Day Fiasco From: katlaughing Date: 09 Oct 00 - 10:18 AM You know those negative aspersions, broad generalisations, and assumptions about other members is just the thing we like to see around here. Looks like you've got them down to a "t". |
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Subject: RE: BS: Columbus Day Fiasco From: Gary T Date: 09 Oct 00 - 11:04 AM While "native American" could be correctly applied to anyone born in the U.S. (or,perhaps, in the Americas), my understanding is that the term "Native American" (note the capital N) arose from some government project/study that referred to "Native American Peoples". Such peoples include the various Amerindian tribes, Eskimos, Polynesian Hawaiians, etc.--the pre-Columbian inhabitants of the United States' land. It was not simply a PC substitute for (American) "Indian", though it did eliminate the confusion (with Asian Indian) and possible possible negative connotations of that term. While I have no philosophical objection to the phrase "Native American", I find it rather unsatisfactory for three reasons: it's unwieldy; it's indistinguishable from "native American" in speech; and most people are unaware that in its original application it included Hawaiians, etc. I prefer "Amerind", but it never seemed to really catch on. One American Indian of my acquaintance indicated that the preferred term would indeed be the individual tribal name. This idea, unfortunately, presents its own problems. Most of us can look at an American Indian and indentify him as such, but we don't have a clue which tribe he may represent. What would you call someone whose heritage includes more than one tribe, and perhaps also some European ancestry? And it's still useful to have a term that refers to all American Indians, not just one tribe. As previous responses indicate, there doesn't seem to be a universally or even widely accepted term to use here. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Columbus Day Fiasco From: Carlin Date: 09 Oct 00 - 12:25 PM ROFLMAO!!!!!
Ahhh let's see here....you said;
"Get all of your info from Hollywood, huh?"
and....
"It's hard to believe anyone would still buy into the old Euro-centrist teachings about indigenous peoples. "
and then implied a closed mindedness on my part with.....
"if you are at all open to learning about the past from many other perspectives."
Do ya' know the old saw about people who live in glass houses? Don't dish it out if you can't take it!!!!!
Do you honestly believe that the New World was one giant Woodstock fest prior to the Europeans arriving? And please answer my questions....have you ever heard of the Federated Greek states (if not, why not)? If the Indians were so happy with what they had, why were they so eager to trade for Euro-tech? How much have you studied the Constitutional Convention? Have you read the first hand accounts from the thing?
I am prepared to discuss the topic without flaming or innuendo....I am really interested in what you have to say, and I would like to know why you belive what you believe....okie dokie? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Columbus Day Fiasco From: mousethief Date: 09 Oct 00 - 12:58 PM Copernicus did not discover the roundness of the earth. The ancient greeks knew about it and actually calculated the diameter of the globe (pretty close, too!). Ptolemy, an Egyptian, wrote about the earth being round in his Almagest, which was the manual of astronomy throughout the middle ages. Granted he put the earth in the middle, but he did know the earth was round. This notion that Columbus proved a new idea about the shape of the earth is hogwash. Perhaps the uneducated felt the earth was round; the educated (granted, a small minority of the population) knew better and always had.
Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Columbus Day Fiasco From: Bert Date: 09 Oct 00 - 01:27 PM Just to lighten up the discussion a little, here's a song that I learned some years ago... The day I well remember when Columbus landed here. Me and forty Redmen were right there at the pier. He asked me why my Indians wore feathers in their hair Why that's to keep their trousers up and this I do declare. Chorus... I'm the man who built the Rockies up and placed them where they are sold whisky to the Indians, from behind my little bar 'twas I who built Niagara Falls and first discovered beer and that was many years before, Columbus landed here. He asked me where he had to go to catch that China train. It was clear the poor old coot had china on the brain. I said 'no train I know of, leaves from here today, but you'll find my Chinese laundry men not half a block away. Chorus. He noticed among my Indians, some had skins quite fair, and asked if any white man, had been before somewhere. I told him 'You must realise, I've been here quite some time, and since they cannot be yours, they no doubt are mine' Chorus. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Columbus Day Fiasco From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 09 Oct 00 - 01:38 PM The thing with Columbus is that he bought into a version of the world-is-a-globe hypothesis under which the planet was a lot smaller than it actually is. That's why he thought Asia was in sailing distance, and assumed that when he'd got Asia when he'd actually reached America.
What's puzzles me is why it ended up with all this stuff about Indians and so forth, when the initial assumption was that they had reached China. Logically speaking the people living there already should have been called Chinese, which would presumably have meant that the newcomers would have been embattled with the Red Chinese hundreds of years earlier than was actually the case.
It'd make more sense to refer to the people descended from the ones who were there first as just plain Americans, and to call the descendents of the newcomers New Americans. But I suppose it's too late now. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Columbus Day Fiasco From: Kim C Date: 09 Oct 00 - 01:39 PM Let's see, the people we call Native Americans were not indigenous to North America, if the theory of them migrating across the former land bridge at the Bering Strait is true. Then there were those who came up fromn South America. But really, didn't everyone come from somewhere else in the first place? (sarcasm alert) While we're at it let's take Andy Jackson off the $20 bill. History has noted that he was indeed a slave trader and an Indian killer. Here's the deal, see..... anyone can have a parade anywhere they want as long as they get the proper permits. So bad, so sad. We don't like it when the KKK marches in Pulaski, TN, but the First Amendment protects the bad guys too. So the Italians should be able to have a parade, and anyone should be able to protest ---- they just ought to have the sense enough to do it without physical confrontation. Or maybe I'm just naive. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Columbus Day Fiasco From: mousethief Date: 09 Oct 00 - 01:41 PM Ah, if you want a light-hearted song about Columbus, you can hardly do better than this: Ein Mann, der sich Kolumbus nannt
Ein Mann der sich Kolumbus nannt,
Gloria, Viktoria, widewidewitt jucheirassa,
Als er den Morgenkaffee trank,
Der König sprach: "Mein lieber Mann,
Gesagt, getan, ein Mann ein Wort,
Das Volk an Land stand stumm und zag, ----- Translation available upon request (but it may take me a while as my college German is a bit rusty...)
Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Columbus Day Fiasco From: DougR Date: 09 Oct 00 - 03:01 PM Wow! The Mudcat family if "feeling it's oats" this fine day. Carlin, you are a hard-hitter and I like your spunk. Sometimes when I read threads like these, I think Mudcatters, perhaps, read too much. They certainly don't read the same books, obviously. I did learn something, however, and kat I don't mean this in a bitey way at all, and that is that the Iroquois nation had a constitution. I had not idea they could even read English I guess it might have been in Iroquoin though. I would think some of our founding fathers would be fluent in that language. I can't say whether I think Columbus deserves a holiday or not. When I was employed, I never reported to work if we had the day off though. DougR |
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Subject: RE: BS: Columbus Day Fiasco From: katlaughing Date: 09 Oct 00 - 03:30 PM Your choice of "stone age" is what bothered me most, as it denotes "cave man" like mentality, when we know indigenous people in the Americas and elsewhere had sophisticated and some socially advanced societies. Of course, being a part of humankind they also had all of the negative that entails, as well. My fault for assuming everyone knew I was not negating earlier civilisations' influence on the Constitution etc. There is evidence that Franklin was aware of the Iroquois document (Doug, I use that term loosely, as I do not know if it was written or not; I do have a book with it written in English, side-by-side with our Constitution); recognised its elegance and did draw from it. As for PC, modern morality, equity, etc it is no mystery to the Mudcat that I am liberal, believe in being ethically conscious, work on human rights, figure the partriarchal age has been in its death throes since the Age of Aquarius began in the 60's, leaving some pretty special men and women in its wake, and, of course, this country was a giant WOODSTOCK before the whitehides got here!! Where do you think the hippies got their ideas??? I mean, like, really, man!
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Subject: RE: BS: Columbus Day Fiasco From: GUEST,Lyle Date: 09 Oct 00 - 03:42 PM Kendall: You are a little off on a couple things. First, Columbus didn't prove anything about the shape of the Earth; it was known to be a sphere 2000 years before he was born. Second, don't blame todays parade on the history that is being taught in the schools - the people involved in the Denver parade have been out of school a long, long time. We should all recognize that Columbus did discover something; when he landed, he discovered that he was totally lost! Lyle |
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Subject: RE: BS: Columbus Day Fiasco From: mousethief Date: 09 Oct 00 - 03:45 PM Okay, here's two cartoons. I don't have links to them so you'll have to use your imagination. Both consist in part of Columbus landing, with native peoples greeting him. #1: The natives have a stew pot made of an upside-down viking helmet. #2: The natives say, "We're so glad you came! We can't think of what we should call ourselves!"
Alex |