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Origins: Deck the Halls / Cymraeg Nos Galan

DigiTrad:
DECK THE HALLS
DECK US ALL


Related threads:
(origins) Origins: piper in the meadow/deck the halls (18)
Nos Galan variant (4)
Lyr Req: Nos Galen (5)


In Mudcat MIDIs:
Nos Galan (Deck the Halls)


Haruo 07 Oct 00 - 01:50 AM
Haruo 07 Oct 00 - 01:52 AM
Liz the Squeak 07 Oct 00 - 02:57 AM
AllisonA(Animaterra) 07 Oct 00 - 07:27 AM
Liz the Squeak 07 Oct 00 - 11:25 AM
sian, west wales 07 Oct 00 - 01:11 PM
Liz the Squeak 07 Oct 00 - 02:12 PM
Haruo 07 Oct 00 - 06:33 PM
sian, west wales 09 Oct 00 - 11:44 AM
GUEST,guest delia 09 Oct 00 - 02:02 PM
Haruo 09 Oct 00 - 04:57 PM
Liz the Squeak 09 Oct 00 - 05:39 PM
GUEST,Liland 09 Oct 00 - 05:49 PM
Liz the Squeak 09 Oct 00 - 05:54 PM
AllisonA(Animaterra) 30 Nov 00 - 06:53 AM
Michael in Swansea 30 Nov 00 - 08:37 AM
guinnesschik 30 Nov 00 - 09:10 AM
Penny S. 30 Nov 00 - 04:00 PM
AllisonA(Animaterra) 30 Nov 00 - 04:34 PM
Haruo 06 Oct 01 - 07:19 PM
Liz the Squeak 07 Oct 01 - 04:00 AM
Skipper Jack 07 Oct 01 - 04:33 AM
pavane 07 Oct 01 - 05:13 AM
Haruo 08 Oct 01 - 01:19 AM
Liz the Squeak 08 Oct 01 - 02:04 AM
Haruo 08 Oct 01 - 02:12 AM
Skipper Jack 08 Oct 01 - 04:17 AM
sian, west wales 08 Oct 01 - 04:25 AM
Skipper Jack 08 Oct 01 - 05:06 AM
sian, west wales 08 Oct 01 - 05:38 AM
Haruo 08 Oct 01 - 06:22 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 08 Oct 01 - 08:02 PM
Haruo 08 Oct 01 - 10:15 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 08 Oct 01 - 11:44 PM
Haruo 08 Oct 01 - 11:50 PM
Liz the Squeak 09 Oct 01 - 01:49 AM
sian, west wales 09 Oct 01 - 04:35 AM
sian, west wales 09 Oct 01 - 06:19 AM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 09 Oct 01 - 01:40 PM
sian, west wales 09 Oct 01 - 04:25 PM
Dicho (Frank Staplin) 09 Oct 01 - 04:45 PM
sian, west wales 10 Oct 01 - 04:54 AM
Skipper Jack 10 Oct 01 - 03:59 PM
Haruo 10 Oct 01 - 05:19 PM
Haruo 10 Oct 01 - 05:23 PM
Crane Driver 10 Oct 01 - 11:09 PM
sian, west wales 11 Oct 01 - 05:08 AM
sian, west wales 11 Oct 01 - 07:11 AM
Haruo 11 Oct 01 - 03:28 PM
Haruo 12 Oct 01 - 05:42 PM
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Subject: Lyric Req: DeckHalls Cymraeg Nos Galan
From: Haruo
Date: 07 Oct 00 - 01:50 AM

With Yule/Xmas coming along at full throttle, I thought this might be the year I'd actually figure out how to sing Deck the Halls in Welsh. Any Mudcatters know:
1) The Welsh text, if any, underlying the customary English "Deck the Halls" (e.g. the one in the Digitrad that is not a parody)?
2) The Welsh text underlying what the Oxford Book of Carols gives as "All ye mountains, praise the Lord"?
3) Other Welsh texts for the tune (Nos Galan)? Preferably with English glosses, as my Welsh is minimal.

Liland

PS I tried putting Nos Galan in the Digitrad Search box with no results.


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Subject: RE: Lyric Req: DeckHalls Cymraeg Nos Galan
From: Haruo
Date: 07 Oct 00 - 01:52 AM

I think it was actually the derivation of "schmuck" in another thread that made me think to ask about this. Odd how the human mind works.
Liland


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Subject: RE: Lyric Req: DeckHalls Cymraeg Nos Galan
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 Oct 00 - 02:57 AM

I have them in a UK book called the National Songbook. Used to be a must in schools, alas, jingoism triumphed over tradition and it was withdrawn. I can do them if you want, Pmail me your address and I can do them for you, unless you are likely to be at Llanstock, where I can give you a copy.....

The words in Welsh are basically the proper ones in English,

soon the hoar old year will leave us..... etc. Fa la la la la is the same in Welsh as English....

LTS


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Subject: RE: Lyric Req: DeckHalls Cymraeg Nos Galan
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 07 Oct 00 - 07:27 AM

LTS- share them here, pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeease???


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Subject: Lyr Add: NOS GALAN (Welsh carol)
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 Oct 00 - 11:25 AM

All right, here they are, they are the ones from the aforementioned National Songbook, a book that is not ashamed to put The Minstrel Boy, Will ye no come back again and God save the King (yes the book is that old) all in one volume!!

NOS GALAN

Oer yw'r gwr sy'n methu caru,
Fal la la la la, la la la la.
Hen fynyddoedd anwyl Cymru,
Fal la la la la, la la la la.
Iddo ef a'u car gynhesaf ,
Fal la la la la, la la la la.
Gwyliau llawen flwydd nesaf, Fal la la la la, la la la la.

I'r helbulus oer yw'r biliau
Fal la la la la, la la la la.
Sydd yn dyfod yn y Gwyliau,
Fal la la la la, la la la la.
Gwrando bregeth mewnun pennill,
Fal la la la la, la la la la.
Byth na waria fwy na'th ennill
Fal la la la la, la la la la.

Oer yw'r eira ar Eryi,
Fal la la la la, la la la la.
Er fod gwrthban gwlanen arni,
Fal la la la la, la la la la.
Oer yw'r bobol na ofalan',
Fal la la la la, la la la la.
Gwrdd a'u gilydd Ar Nos Galan,
Fal la la la la, la la la la.


Just don't ask me for a translation, because I'm not sure the copy button could cope with another run of fal la las! And apologies for anyone who'se machine automatically spellchecks..... mind you, there are some hoots in here!

LTS


Click to play


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Subject: RE: Lyric Req: DeckHalls Cymraeg Nos Galan
From: sian, west wales
Date: 07 Oct 00 - 01:11 PM

I'm not sure if I misunderstood what Liz was trying to say but ... the Welsh words aren't a translation of the English. Nos Galan is a harp tune to which the Welsh would sing a hodge-podge of verses. The ones above are those ususally sung over the Christmas holidays, remembering, of course, that the Welsh didn't do much with Christmas but New Year's Eve (Nos Galan) was the big night.

I thought there already was a thread on this as I remember saying much of this before. Perhaps it was on a Usenet group. Anyway, ...

What little research has been done on Deck the Halls leads Phyllis Kinney, one of our experts in the field, to believe that the English words were composed by a Welsh American. It certainly appeared in the States long before appearing in the UK, but the author of the words obviously understood the Welsh traditions of decking halls, etc. as well as knowing the tune well.

Ah, now I remember. This came up in private correspondence when someone was looking for pagan songs to sing and was convinced that Deck the Halls was ancient. Which it ain't. Well, the tune is old, but not that old...

Anyway, it is strictly speaking a New Year's piece set to a well-known dance/harp tune. Hope that's of interest.

sian


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Subject: RE: Lyric Req: DeckHalls Cymraeg Nos Galan
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 Oct 00 - 02:12 PM

The Oxford Book of Carols version is the Christianised set, the English translation of the welsh above is the more secular version. Basically you are singing about the new year coming and how you hope that you don't regret the one just gone, and if you greet the new one singing, you should have a happy new year - start as you mean to go on sort of thing..... Vs 3 says not to ponder on future sadness or anxious care, but to fill the mead cup and decorate the house. It doesn't mention any deity, it is a damn fine tune and everyone can sing fal la la no matter how drunk they are!!

To the best of my knowledge, this mead drinking, year welcoming version is the elder of the two, Deck the halls being definately USA in origins. I'm happy to be corrected if that be the case.

LTS


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Subject: RE: Lyric Req: DeckHalls Cymraeg Nos Galan
From: Haruo
Date: 07 Oct 00 - 06:33 PM

Thanks to all of you who have contributed so far. I will have to try to translate the Welsh that Liz the Squeak sent to see to what extent it appears to be reflected in the various English and Esperanto versions I have. I must point out, however, that I had to smile when I read Liz's comment (early on) that
The words in Welsh are basically the proper ones in English,

soon the hoar old year will leave us..... etc. Fa la la la la is the same in Welsh as English....
as no one has ever sung that line in my hearing (nor do I think you could get them to; hoar is one of those unfortunate homophones, at least hereabouts). The version we sing here puts the New Year part "Fast away the old year passes, ... Hail the new, ye lads and lasses".

Once again, thanks!

And Liz, I will PM you, but re: Lyngham, I think.

Liland


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Subject: Lyr Add: NOS GALAN & Enlish translation
From: sian, west wales
Date: 09 Oct 00 - 11:44 AM

Here's a translation of the above words.

I'r helbulus oer yw'r biliau
Sydd yn dyfod yn y Gwyliau,
Gwrando bregeth mewn un pennill,
Byth na waria fwy na'th ennill

To the troubled cold (i.e. chilling) are the bills
Which come during the holidays;
Listening to a sermon in one verse;
Spending more than you earn.
(I don't think I did this verse very well. s,ww)

Oer yw'r eira ar Eryi,
Er fod gwrthban gwlanen arni,
Oer yw'r bobol na ofalan',
Gwrdd a'u gilydd ar Nos Galan,

Cold is the snow on Snowdon,
Although it wears a woolen blanket,
Cold are the people who don't take care
To meet each other on New Year's Eve.

Remember, there was/is a tradition of taking a tune and singing a lot of different verses to it, for fun. Similar to a lot of campfire songs we used to sing at camp.

sian


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Subject: RE: Lyric Req: DeckHalls Cymraeg Nos Galan
From: GUEST,guest delia
Date: 09 Oct 00 - 02:02 PM


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Subject: RE: Lyric Req: DeckHalls Cymraeg Nos Galan
From: Haruo
Date: 09 Oct 00 - 04:57 PM

guest delia, did you mean to post something? If so, try again.

Liland


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Subject: RE: Lyric Req: DeckHalls Cymraeg Nos Galan
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 09 Oct 00 - 05:39 PM

That's what hoar means - cold as in hoar frost. A hoar frost is one of those that you very rarely get in the city, one where every leaf has an edge of frost, and it looks like someone sprinkled sugar on the grass. Each blade has a crisp white edge, and the spider webs are like spun icicles, the sort of day that makes your breath inwards catch in your throat, and every breath outwards is accompanied by a plume of vapour.... the sky is uniformly grey or blue glass, and the road under your footfalls goes spang..... heck I miss a good frost!

LTS


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Subject: RE: Lyric Req: DeckHalls Cymraeg Nos Galan
From: GUEST,Liland
Date: 09 Oct 00 - 05:49 PM

"That's what hoar means - cold as in hoar frost. A hoar frost is one of those that you very rarely get in the city,..."
Which helps explain why I would be leery of singing it that way; cityfolk would tend to hear "whore frost". Must say, though, you do make a good frost sound like fun. Where did they all go? Global warming?

Liland


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Subject: RE: Lyric Req: DeckHalls Cymraeg Nos Galan
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 09 Oct 00 - 05:54 PM

More like urban warming - they still happen in my home town, and just down the road. We even had one in East Ham about 5 years back. Beautiful it was. I still wore my sandals though. One of those days that is too beautiful to stay in during, but too cold to walk around without your eyes/ears/nose running, or that sudden urge that the cold brings on and you realise you can't undo your trousers with your gloves on......

LTS


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Subject: RE: Lyric Req: DeckHalls Cymraeg Nos Galan
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 30 Nov 00 - 06:53 AM

A timely refresher


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Subject: RE: Lyric Req: DeckHalls Cymraeg Nos Galan
From: Michael in Swansea
Date: 30 Nov 00 - 08:37 AM

Try here

Mike


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Subject: RE: Lyric Req: DeckHalls Cymraeg Nos Galan
From: guinnesschik
Date: 30 Nov 00 - 09:10 AM

This thread has given me the chills. *LOL* Must get coffee...


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Subject: RE: Lyric Req: DeckHalls Cymraeg Nos Galan
From: Penny S.
Date: 30 Nov 00 - 04:00 PM

Couple of weird hoar frost things I've seen once and never again, and both times without a camera. One morning I went down to the front door, and found that I'd left the little cover off the keyhole, and frost had grown in to the house, about half an inch long or more. And another time, after a wet spell, a brick wall had grown curly hair of frost along the top as the water expanded from the pores.

I need a good frost. Without it, I don't get set up for the year!

Penny


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Subject: RE: Lyric Req: DeckHalls Cymraeg Nos Galan
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 30 Nov 00 - 04:34 PM

Come on over, Penny- the frost has set in for the winter here in New England!


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Subject: RE: Lyric Req: DeckHalls Cymraeg Nos Galan
From: Haruo
Date: 06 Oct 01 - 07:19 PM

Well, I just posted the Welsh text Liz the Squeak provided above in La Lilandejo, as well as six stanzas in (you guessed it) Esperanto. Enjoy.

Liland


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Subject: RE: Lyric Req: DeckHalls Cymraeg Nos Galan
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 04:00 AM

Esperanto?? Ye Gods - how do all the falalalala's come out???

We've had a couple of misty moisty mornings here in downtown East Ham, making the cobwebs into diamond fairy cloaks, but no frost yet... Hopefully my little friend Roger the Penguin will tell me when he's had a frost so we can go sloe picking again..... So more sloe gin for Llanstock III!

LTS


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Subject: RE: Lyric Req: DeckHalls Cymraeg Nos Galan
From: Skipper Jack
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 04:33 AM

The tune for Nos Galan is called "Dawns Flodau Nantgarw" (Nantgarw Floral Dance). Which suggests to me that the the original tune may have had nothing to do with the festive season?


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Subject: RE: Lyric Req: DeckHalls Cymraeg Nos Galan
From: pavane
Date: 07 Oct 01 - 05:13 AM

East Ham eh? I was born and brought up in Plashet Grove. Escaped many years ago, tho (and now in Wales)


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Subject: RE: Lyric Req: DeckHalls Cymraeg Nos Galan
From: Haruo
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 01:19 AM

LTS: Esperanto?? Ye Gods - how do all the falalalala's come out???

Liland: Actually, Liz, I silently corrected your "falalalala's" in the Welsh version, since you had all four sets (per stanza) the same, while the tune requires that the third set be different. (I don't know if the error was yours or the National Songbook's, but either way I corrected it. And of course the "falalalala's" come out the same in Esperanto as in English (and probably about the same as in Welsh, but see my quibble infra...)

Quibble: I thought in Welsh "fa" was supposed to be written "ffa", and that "fa" should be pronounced "va". What gives here? Does the Cymraeg-singing Cymro actually sing "Va la la la la" or did the National Songbook misspell all those "ffal's"?

Skipper Jack: The tune for Nos Galan is called "Dawns Flodau Nantgarw" (Nantgarw Floral Dance)...

Liland: On what authority to you claim that "Dawns Flodau Nantgarw" is the proper name of the tune? As distinct, that is, from merely the incipit of another set of lyrics? Do you have any evidence that the one is earlier than the other? None of the sites a Google Search for "Dawns Flodau Nantgarw" turns up appears to address the issue (though I'll admit my Welsh is inoperable; or do I mean inoperative?).

Liland


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Subject: RE: Lyric Req: DeckHalls Cymraeg Nos Galan
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 02:04 AM

I've just beaten it out - there are the same number of falalalalalalalala in all of them! Unless you've actually got a different tune? The tune in the book I have, and incidentally the one I learned aged 8 in recorder lessons, is called Nos Galan, nothing about flowers or dances or anything... I thing there may be a crossed purpose here.

LTS


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Subject: RE: Lyric Req: DeckHalls Cymraeg Nos Galan
From: Haruo
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 02:12 AM

Same number of falala's in each, but grouped differently in the third set. The first, second and fourth sets in each stanza go:

fa la la la la - la la la la

whereas the third set goes:

fa la la - la la la - la la la.

See what I mean?

I agree about the tune name, I have no idea what Skipper Jack is talking about; I have always seen the tune called "Nos Galan" (which, of course, is simply Welsh for "Sylvester"). But then, I have no idea what tune "Dawns Flodau Nantgarw" uses, and if it is the same as what I call "Nos Galan" then there's a chance it is the earlier title. But Skipper Jack didn't cite any evidence, just stated it as fact, which I find unconvincing.

Liland


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Subject: RE: Lyric Req: DeckHalls Cymraeg Nos Galan
From: Skipper Jack
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 04:17 AM

Re: "Dawns Flodau Nantgarw".

I can only refer one to a vinyl record that I have of Welsh Folk Dance music. It is played by a band of musicians under the leadership of Pat Shaw who collected most of the tunes (from where I know not?)

As I said the track on this record which refers to the tune "Nos Galan" is entitled "Dawns Flodau Nantgarw. Another Welsh folk group at the time was Pedwar Yn Y Bar who featured this tune on their recording, but under the title of "Nos Galan".

Maybe one can find an answer at The Welsh Folk Museum, at St Fagins in Cardiff?

Nantgarw is a village North of Cardiff.


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Subject: RE: Lyric Req: DeckHalls Cymraeg Nos Galan
From: sian, west wales
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 04:25 AM

I'm at work so can't check the book "Blodau'r Grug" (anyway, I think I've lent it to someone...) This tune is the first in the book,and I'm pretty sure that it's titled Nos Galan. However, again working from memory, I think the actual *dance* that is commonly done to this tune is "Dawns Flodau Nantgarw" - the Flower Dance of Nantgarw. Nantgarw being a small village north of Cardiff where a lot of dances were 'saved' thanks to the memory of one old woman.

sian


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Subject: RE: Lyric Req: DeckHalls Cymraeg Nos Galan
From: Skipper Jack
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 05:06 AM

Aha!

On taking a closer look at the record of Welsh Folk Dance Music. I see that the particular track does mention "Nos Galan, Glanbargoed, Llwytcoed" That suggests to me that the tune is "Nos Galan" and that it was collected at Glanbargoed, and that "Dawns Flodau Nantgarw" is the name of the dance and not the tune.

Mystery solved?

My thanks to Sian,West Wales, for putting me on the trail.


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Subject: RE: Lyric Req: DeckHalls Cymraeg Nos Galan
From: sian, west wales
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 05:38 AM

You're welcome, blodyn!

sian


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Subject: RE: Lyric Req: DeckHalls Cymraeg Nos Galan
From: Haruo
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 06:22 PM

So (thank ye both) it looks like "Nos Galan" is the primary tune name after all, and certainly the name itself indicates a relationship to the Sylvester celebrations. Liz and I are right. - Liland


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Subject: RE: Lyric Req: DeckHalls Cymraeg Nos Galan
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 08:02 PM

Nos Galen was published in "British Harmony," 1781, John Parry, as one of 42 tunes with Welsh titles. Some claim great antiquity for the tune, but no supporting evidence. It could have other names (See Skipper Jack).
http:// web.ukonline.co.uk/mustrad/articles/kid_txt2.htm
Also in Welsh, the Night of the Winter Calends (Halloween) is called Nos Galen gaeof.
Without seeing Parry's book, I don't know if the tune is the same as "Deck the Halls." No lyrics are given.


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Subject: RE: Lyric Req: DeckHalls Cymraeg Nos Galan
From: Haruo
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 10:15 PM

I was born in 1954. 1781 is great antiquity!

Liland


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Subject: RE: Lyric Req: DeckHalls Cymraeg Nos Galan
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 11:44 PM

The antiquity I found (probably nonsense) related to the year 1000! Now that's real anti-que-ity. There are no written records of Welsh song before the 17th Century according to one site I found.


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Subject: RE: Lyric Req: DeckHalls Cymraeg Nos Galan
From: Haruo
Date: 08 Oct 01 - 11:50 PM

Well, maybe it's of Mandan Indian origin. That would be newsworthy.

Liland


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Subject: RE: Lyric Req: DeckHalls Cymraeg Nos Galan
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 01:49 AM

Manitas had to do a Welsh gig once. There only appeared to be 6 tunes that are actually Welsh, the others just had Welsh names... and 3 of those 6 were adapted to become anglicised hymn tunes!!

LTS


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Subject: RE: Lyric Req: DeckHalls Cymraeg Nos Galan
From: sian, west wales
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 04:35 AM

It's Nos GALAN and Noson GalAN GAEAF, just to get the spellings correct. (Although orthography prior to the 19th C. is, umm, fluid, shall we say.) Calan is from the same root as Calendar, and every month has a 'calan' (the first day of each month. So May Day is Calan Mai. The tune IS Nos Galan, honest it is.

And there are a fair few number of Welsh tunes - certainly more than 6, although that 6 (and other single digit numbers) is tossed around a lot. Obviously this is modified by some other thread which questions how specific you can be with any British Isles tune; the original of Irish Washerwoman was written by a Welshman for Eliz.I , for instance, but no one considers it Welsh ... It also seems to be everyone's default position that, if a tune has a Welsh name and an English name, it must be the *Welsh* that 'borrowed' it. Having said that, there are a lot of imported tunes in Wales - including a large number of our Plygain carols - but then a lot of traditional tunes were written to suit specific Welsh poetic metres so *aren't* adopted from elsewhere.

Dicho is right about the 1000 yrs probably being nonsense - as far as tunes are concerned, anyway. There are some manuscripts around from the 16th century but most collections are from the 18th C. I don't think any books which 'married' tunes with words came out until the 19th C.

sian


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Subject: RE: Lyric Req: DeckHalls Cymraeg Nos Galan
From: sian, west wales
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 06:19 AM

Skipper Jack, I just looked at your message again in which you said

"Nos Galan, Glanbargoed, Llwytcoed" That suggests to me that the tune is "Nos Galan" and that it was collected at Glanbargoed, "

Sorry - a bit more on that ... I'm pretty sure that Nos Galan, Glanbargoed and Llwytcoed are three separate tunes that are played in a series (with a return to Nos Galan at the end) thus serving as a full set for Dawns Blodau Nantgarw. I know that, in Blodau'r Grug, Nos Galan is one of three - I can't just remember if G & Ll. are the other two.

Liland, in Welsh texts we do use Ffa (which only co-incidentally means 'beans') but who's gonna quibble when God gave us 'cut-and-paste'? But I'm VERY impressed that you understand Cymro/Cymraeg/Cymreig ! There's many as don't! The local supermarket advertises Welsh speaking cheese ...

sian


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Subject: RE: Lyric Req: DeckHalls Cymraeg Nos Galan
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 01:40 PM

Sian, the website I gave has a list of references; the first that mentions "words" is dated 1800, so you are correct. I would appreciate it if you would look at this site and tell me what you think of its reliability- it looks pretty good to me but I am ignorant on this subject.
I got the Calends Nos Galen name from a site on Halloween; often these write-ups have errors.


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Subject: RE: Lyric Req: DeckHalls Cymraeg Nos Galan
From: sian, west wales
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 04:25 PM

Dicho, great stuff! Can't get back to it's home page, but it looks like the entry from Groves? If so, the friend, Phyllis, who I mentioned in my earliest message here has just rewritten the Wales entry ... but Ithink only to update it. She's also in the process of writing the first English language history of Welsh folk music since 1935. University of Wales Press is breathing down her neck for it, so I'm hoping it will be published ... Christmas next year maybe? She's 79, so she doesn't move as fast as she once did ... but I think she's up to the mid 1800s!

Sian


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Subject: RE: Lyric Req: DeckHalls Cymraeg Nos Galan
From: Dicho (Frank Staplin)
Date: 09 Oct 01 - 04:45 PM

Groves is right. If your friend Phyllis is given a set of Groves, you will be a favored man if you can beg, borrow or steal the use of it.


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Subject: RE: Lyric Req: DeckHalls Cymraeg Nos Galan
From: sian, west wales
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 04:54 AM

Phyllis was given a set of Groves as a birthday present on the Welsh equivalent of "This is Your Life" last year. She nearly fainted!

And I'm sure that getting the use of it might make me a happy man, but I'm quite happy being a woman at present ...

8-}

sian


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Subject: RE: Lyric Req: DeckHalls Cymraeg Nos Galan
From: Skipper Jack
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 03:59 PM

Thank you Sian.

You are probably right.

Isn't it amazing how a seemingly simple request can open up such an intellectual discussion and it all started with Fa-la-la-la, la-la-la.!!!


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Subject: RE: Lyric Req: DeckHalls Cymraeg Nos Galan
From: Haruo
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 05:19 PM

Actually, I don't know the meaning of "Cymreig" (the triplet I claimed was "Cymro-Cymru-Cymraeg", though both "Cymraeg" and "Cymreig" look to me like they're probably best pronounced roughly "come Reich", FWTW) and I can't imagine what "Welsh-speaking cheese" is. Is it edible or just audible? ;-)

BTW I just posted an Esperanto movement song to "Men of Harlech" and should have one of you vet my spelling of the tune name (I gave it a Welsh name). Hang on a minute while I go get a link.

Liland


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Subject: RE: Lyric Req: DeckHalls Cymraeg Nos Galan
From: Haruo
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 05:23 PM

Here's the link

Al la Esperantistaro by F J West

and the tune name

Rhyvelgyrch gwyr Harlech.

(This is from Kantaro Esperanta, 1926, edited by Montagu Christie Butler. Not sure how competent Butler was in Welsh...

Liland


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Subject: RE: Lyric Req: DeckHalls Cymraeg Nos Galan
From: Crane Driver
Date: 10 Oct 01 - 11:09 PM

John Kirkpatrick, on his midwinter album "Wassail", does a set of 'three terrific old dance tunes that were given new English words during the nineteenth century' {quote}. The first is 'The Nantgarw Flower Dance' which was 'traditionally done in Wales on New Year's Eve, and is also known as "Nos Galan", which means "New Year's Eve" in the Welsh language.' {quote again}

Does that make anything clearer?

Nos dda!


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Subject: RE: Lyric Req: DeckHalls Cymraeg Nos Galan
From: sian, west wales
Date: 11 Oct 01 - 05:08 AM

I'm afraid it's a case of not believing everything you read on an album cover. Sorry, but I've phoned around to people who, literally, wrote the book on the music side of this (Meredydd Evans and Phyllis Kinney) and the DANCE is Dawns Flodau Nantgarw and the TUNE is Nos Galan. I used to be a member of the Welsh Folk Dance Soc. as well - and I still reckon this is right.

Dicho, Phyl says that the first ever published words were in Edward Jones' (Bardd y Brenin - the King's Bard) collection, Musical And Poetic Relicks of the Welsh Bards, 1784, but had nothing to do with the Christmas/New Year Season. Mered (who's the text expert) thinks that EJ may have written them himself, the English being a pretty direct translation of the Welsh: O how soft my fair one's bosom... John Parry, Ruabon, also printed the TUNE only in his British Harmony, and possibly in an earlier "A Collection of Welsh, English and Scottish Airs" in 1761. There is also a reference to a tune "New Year's Day" in a manuscript by Richard Morris (b. 1701) which was a very hodge-podge list of tunes that he heard around and noted, diary-style, between the ages of 15 - 18.

Back to the album cover - Phyllis says she'd like to know JK's reference material ... she like's to keep track of other sets of words...

Oh, and Liland, the title is sort of right, but not by modern orthography. "V" is no longer considered to be a Welsh letter (used in the past to correct English pronunciation of the single "f") so it would be Rhyfelgyrch gwyr Harlech. There should also be a circumflex accent over the "y" in "gwyr" ... but that seems to be next to impossible in internet applications. ((sigh)). Actually, I thought it was Rhyfelgan (war song)... but I could very well be wrong on that ...

Hope this is useful!

sian


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Subject: RE: Lyric Req: DeckHalls Cymraeg Nos Galan
From: sian, west wales
Date: 11 Oct 01 - 07:11 AM

Oops, just noticed that I didn't pick up on Liland's Cymreig/Cymraeg!

Come-RAYG (ei = long 'a', as in ray of sunshine) means Welsh in nature, Come-R'EYE'G (that is, a ae= eye as in my little eye) is Welsh in language. Hard 'c's and 'g's in each case. Oh, and you could add Cymraes (come-RICE) which is a Welsh woman as opposed to Cymro (come-ROE) for Welshman. Cymru (Wales) and Cymry (pl.Welshpeople) are pronounced the same in the South (Come-REE).

See, now you knows whole bunches of Welsh!

sian


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Subject: RE: Lyric Req: DeckHalls Cymraeg Nos Galan
From: Haruo
Date: 11 Oct 01 - 03:28 PM

And the plural of Cymraes would be...?

Thanks for the info on "Rhyfelgyrch gw^yr Harlech". God willin' an' the crick doan rise, I'll have it looking proper Cymreig Cymraeg by tomorrow.

Liland


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Subject: RE: Lyric Req: DeckHalls Cymraeg Nos Galan
From: Haruo
Date: 12 Oct 01 - 05:42 PM

Done!

Let me know if your gwyr doesn't have a circumflex on the ē!

Liland


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