 sj |
||
|
||
AUSTURIAN CHALLENGE
|
|
|
Subject: AUSTURIAN Questions From: Gracie Date: 10 Oct 00 - 09:43 AM Does anyone know where I can find tunes and songs from Austurias? Since Austurias is a separate, autonomous community with its own language and culture (different from Galicia) doesn't that make it the 8th Celtic nation? |
|
Subject: RE: AUSTURIAN CHALLENGE From: Uncle_DaveO Date: 10 Oct 00 - 01:03 PM I think you may mean Asturias. Dave Oesterreich |
|
Subject: RE: AUSTURIAN CHALLENGE From: Gracie Date: 10 Oct 00 - 02:57 PM OK, then maybe I do! Oops! Anyway, still looking for that music! |
|
Subject: RE: AUSTURIAN CHALLENGE From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 10 Oct 00 - 03:10 PM "the 8th Celtic nation" - you're leaving out Newfoundland there, I think. |
|
Subject: RE: AUSTURIAN CHALLENGE From: Haruo Date: 10 Oct 00 - 05:11 PM What are the first seven? [Celtic nations, that is] I'm thinking, Cymru, Alba, Erin, Kernow, Man, Gaul, Britanny?Lìolaind (as I spell it, I think, in Scottish Gaelic) |
|
Subject: RE: AUSTURIAN CHALLENGE From: Haruo Date: 10 Oct 00 - 05:20 PM Judging from the posts in the Usenet newsgroups soc.culture.asturies [sic] and alt.culture.astur , the language predominating is not Celtic, and looks mostly Spanish. Liland PS But you might try posting a request in those groups in English. For song leads, I mean. |
|
Subject: RE: AUSTURIAN CHALLENGE From: Gracie Date: 10 Oct 00 - 05:51 PM Well, those Celts were everywhere! But as many sources have it the first 7 would be: Ireland, Scotland, Wales, Brittany, Isle of Man, Cornwall and Galicia (northern Spain). But Liland mentions the Galatians who were Celts that settled in what is now modern Turkey. (But where are they now?) And Newfoundland and what about Cape Breton? And all those Galicians that settled in places like Cuba- (Castro is a descendant of Galician immigrants). I'll take any site in English, Spanish or Asturian so send 'em on if you know of any! Thanks! Gracie
|
|
Subject: RE: AUSTURIAN CHALLENGE From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 10 Oct 00 - 05:52 PM Just because a country/region has good music, including bagpipes, doesn't mean it should be seen as Celtic. Just about every country in Europe has a tradition of bagpuipes, and most middle eastern countries as well. |
|
Subject: RE: AUSTURIAN CHALLENGE From: Haruo Date: 10 Oct 00 - 09:56 PM Well, how about the Welsh who settled the Missouri and gave rise to the Mandans or whomever? Liland PS But seriously, on what grounds are you proposing Celticness for Asturias or Asturians? The Iberians, or some Iberians, may have been Celtic (though some or all of them may also have been ancestral to the Basques, who are distinctly not Celtic (except on occasion by marriage). I think. |
|
Subject: RE: AUSTURIAN CHALLENGE From: GeorgeH Date: 11 Oct 00 - 12:18 PM All this "celtic nation" stuff IS a load of utter bollocks, you realise . . romanticised, simplistic mythology. The most the huge majority of the inhabitants of this so-called family of "celtic nations" will claim is a degree of historic link between them. And - as has been noted before - the whole "celtic revival" thing probably owes more to Victorian englishmen (and Victoria) herself than to anything Celtic in origin (and, more recently, to anglo-american marketing spin doctors). Indeed, most of those promulgating these Celtic myths are denying the people themselves the control of their own national and cultural identity. Having got that rant out of the way . . If there is an Asturian language at all it's very rare; as was noted Asturia is Spanish speaking. There is a pretty good series of popular songs/tunes from different regions of Spain - I can't recall whether Asturia is amongst the volumes we have. Oh, and despite the differences between the Spanish regional cultures and traditions, there's also a lot of common influences. For those with even less modern Spanish history than me, the regional languages of Spain were outlawed during Franco's long rule. In those areas where the strongest opposition to Franco was found there was some concerted effort to preserve the language "underground" - particularly in Catalonia and the Basque Country, and (to a lesser extent, it would appear) in Galicia. It's also fascinating how Spain's long multi-cultural history has shown periods of great tollerance as well as periods of harsh oppression (the Inquisition being even more repressive than Franco . .) G. |
|
Subject: RE: AUSTURIAN CHALLENGE From: Gracie Date: 11 Oct 00 - 03:15 PM The Asturian language is called "Bable" and is undergoing a revival. Yes, it is very close to Spanish- so close that there is disagreement as to whether it is a separate language or simply a dialect of Spanish. But the Asturians will claim the first, of course. |
|
Subject: RE: AUSTURIAN CHALLENGE From: GUEST,Lepus Rex, who'll have a cookie in a sec... Date: 11 Oct 00 - 11:17 PM Here's the entry on Asturian language from the Ethnologue site... ASTURIAN (BABLE) [AUB] 100,000 first language speakers, plus 450,000 second language speakers able to speak or understand it (1994 F. F. Botas). 50,000 in Central Asturian, 30,000 in Western Asturian, 20,000 in Eastern Asturian. 550,000 in the ethnic group. Princedom of Asturias except for the most western section where Galician is spoken, the western part of Cantabria, and northern Castilla-Leon. Indo-European, Italic, Romance, Italo-Western, Western, Ibero-Romance, North, Central. Dialects: WESTERN ASTURIAN, CENTRAL ASTURIAN (BABLE), EASTERN ASTURIAN. As different from Spanish as Galician or Catalan; more different than Murcian and Andalusian. Close to Leonese. About 80% intelligibility with Spanish (R.A. Hall, Jr. 1989); enough to cause disruption of communicative ability (T. Erickson SIL 1992). They use Spanish in formal situations and with outsiders. Children ages 6 to 16 are obliged to study Asturian in school; it is voluntary for those 16-19. There is literature, both popular and literary, since the 17th century; poetry, and traditional ballads and chivalric novels of oral tradition. The Academy of the Asturian Language was formed in 1981, to revive the academy of the 18th century. The Vaqueros ethnic group speaks Western Asturian. Intelligibility among the three dialects is adequate, but Western Asturian may need orthography adaptation. Central Asturian is considered the model, and has the most speakers. Bible portions 1871-1991. Work in progress. ---Lepus Rex |
|
Subject: RE: AUSTURIAN CHALLENGE From: Escamillo Date: 12 Oct 00 - 07:21 AM I've passed this request to the main Asturian choral group on behalf of the Mudcat and my choir, the Wagnerian Association of Buenos Aires. Let's see what I can find out. I have a good experience with Basque music but not with Asturian. Un abrazo - Andrés |
|
Subject: RE: AUSTURIAN CHALLENGE From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 12 Oct 00 - 11:55 AM It's a bit like saying that Norfolk must be Celtic because they've got a way of speaking that isn't like standard English. And because that's where "I've been a Wild Rover" was collected. |
|
Subject: RE: AUSTURIAN CHALLENGE From: GeorgeH Date: 20 Oct 00 - 01:38 PM OK, I was wrong (as others have indicated) . . my checks of a couple of Spanish music sites showed (as far as my limited Spanish could tell) no reference to an Asturian Language . . However I was clearly looking in the wrong place, and should have started with our CD collection. So, in answer to the original question, may I recommend: "Xuaca Amieva" by Xostrando, released by Fono Astur FA_CD 8715. It's pretty good, too. A lot of Asturian bagpipe, especially in the earlier tracks . . various other instruments and some pretty fair singing. Not as instantly appealing as some Iberian recordings, but we enjoy it very much. (We'd not noticed it was Asturian, so the style isn't CLEARLY distinct from other Iberian traditions.) At least three of the tunes/songs feature on other CDs we have (mainly Galician I'd guess) and another tune is described as being commonly found throughout the peninsula. Oh, and there's a couple of pretty ordinary Irish/Scots tracks at the end - but it is a 28 track CD. As for the language (the CD sleeve is tri-lingual) - I'd guess the main one is Bable; the other two are English and Spanish. So - the language is clearly Latinate (?) with various similarities to both French and Spanish. However my wife (whose Spanish, unlike mine, is "workable") says it's not really intelligible, so I guess it's more than a dialect. Are the Celtic languages regarded as Latinate, BTW? They don't appear so to me! G. |
|
Subject: RE: AUSTURIAN CHALLENGE From: Fortunato Date: 20 Oct 00 - 02:11 PM Thank you Gracie and Lepus Rex for the education. Now GeorgeH and McGrath seem to feel these folks in Asturia are not Celtic (I think). But are there indications that they are? What makes a people Celtic? Does the music of Asturia have recognizable Celtic patterns? Just Curious, chance |
|
Subject: RE: AUSTURIAN CHALLENGE From: mousethief Date: 20 Oct 00 - 02:27 PM Do they speak a language that can be shown to be celtic or related to one of the known Gaelic languages? That would be a pretty good indicator, no?
Alex |
|
Subject: RE: AUSTURIAN CHALLENGE From: Rollo Date: 20 Oct 00 - 10:50 PM Okay, there are nations and ethnic groups speaking celtic language. But isn't it as absurd to state scots or irishmen are celtic as stating germans are germanic? Erin and scotia have been settled by norse groups in large numbers during the early middle ages. expecially scotland has been a melting pot of picts, norse, anglosaxon and irish settlers. Ireland has seen many settlers as well, norse invaders for example, not to forget cromwells protestants. I like the thought that in the beginning of the 21 century I am related to ethnic groups throughout the whole continent and further. for sure there are distant ancestors of norse, saxon and slavic origin, later on there might be french huguenots coming to pruzzia. For sure some distant cousins of my grandfather went to america, god knows where, maybe iowa or so. And my grandfather himself, beeing a sailor, did he produce unknown uncles of mine in the levante or the maghreb? Might be out of the place in a thread about asturia. but since there are skinheads and fascists raiding jews again here in germany, I am a little bit stingy about ethnic themes these days. |
|
Subject: RE: AUSTURIAN CHALLENGE From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Oct 00 - 06:40 AM Celtic is a linguistic term, so it makes sense to talk about a language as being Celtic, or having some Celtic words. But once you start using it as a term referring to some notion of race or nationality, it's really a misuse of the word. And it leads into all kinds of dark places.
It's the same with other language words, like "semitic", which are misused as racial labels.
So Irish is a Celtic language, and the English spoken in Irekland has many echoes and traces of Irish. And a high proportion of the ancestors of most Irish people used to speak Irish, or Scots Gaelic. But there are also ancestors from all over the place. And the people in the Galeltacht have ancestors from Norway and other places as well. And the music played in Ireland has echoes of the music played and sung by all these ancestors, and it is possible to identify some of these echoes, and say where they come from.
But basically when people talk about "Celtic music" referring to what happens in a session, that's nonsense.
|
| Share Thread: |