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Q about No Mans Land

GUEST,murray@mpce.mq.edu.au 12 Oct 00 - 07:33 AM
Wolfgang 12 Oct 00 - 07:57 AM
jeffp 12 Oct 00 - 08:55 AM
Mikey joe 12 Oct 00 - 09:21 AM
Jeri 12 Oct 00 - 10:41 AM
Stewie 12 Oct 00 - 11:02 AM
Wolfgang 12 Oct 00 - 11:40 AM
Keith A of Hertford 12 Oct 00 - 03:56 PM
Irish sergeant 12 Oct 00 - 05:01 PM
Liz the Squeak 12 Oct 00 - 05:51 PM
Jeri 12 Oct 00 - 06:26 PM
Drumshanty 12 Oct 00 - 06:53 PM
Cobble 12 Oct 00 - 07:01 PM
Bugsy 12 Oct 00 - 08:27 PM
kendall 12 Oct 00 - 08:36 PM
murray@mpce.mq.edu.au 13 Oct 00 - 03:29 AM
Bugsy 13 Oct 00 - 03:37 AM
GUEST,Keith Acheson 13 Oct 00 - 07:36 AM
GUEST,Keith Acheson 13 Oct 00 - 07:43 AM
Amergin 13 Oct 00 - 10:36 AM
murray@mpce.mq.edu.au 14 Oct 00 - 06:56 AM
Wolfgang 16 Oct 00 - 04:00 AM
Max Tone 16 Oct 00 - 07:03 AM
GUEST,Jill B. 16 Oct 00 - 07:38 PM
murray@mpce.mq.edu.au 17 Oct 00 - 02:10 AM
Irish sergeant 17 Oct 00 - 11:18 AM
Bill D 17 Oct 00 - 04:09 PM
GeorgeH 18 Oct 00 - 09:03 AM
Irish sergeant 18 Oct 00 - 09:30 AM
Bill D 18 Oct 00 - 12:26 PM
Max Tone 18 Oct 00 - 04:00 PM
jeffp 18 Oct 00 - 04:23 PM
Tattie Bogle 18 Oct 00 - 04:41 PM
weepiper 30 Sep 01 - 04:58 PM
Gareth 30 Sep 01 - 07:26 PM
allie kiwi 30 Sep 01 - 08:59 PM
GUEST,Boab 01 Oct 01 - 01:40 AM
GUEST,Adolfo 01 Oct 01 - 08:05 AM
Anglo 01 Oct 01 - 12:56 PM
Amergin 01 Oct 01 - 04:23 PM
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Subject: Q about No Mans Land
From: GUEST,murray@mpce.mq.edu.au
Date: 12 Oct 00 - 07:33 AM

There is a line from Eric Bogle's "No Man's Land" which is usually written out as "and did the pipes play the flowers of the forest?" When Bogle sings it it doesn't sound like he is saying "flowers". What is he saying?

Another question while I am on the subject. I have heard somewhere that Bogle wrote a trilogy of anti-war songs. I only know of two. The subject of the last paragraph and "And the Band Played Walzing Matilda." What is the third?

Murray


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Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: Wolfgang
Date: 12 Oct 00 - 07:57 AM

Murray, the third Bogle song on the Great War is 'For King and for Country' (only available on a bootleg), lyrics in the Mudcat Forum: here.

I hear Bogle singing 'floo'ers' which I understand as Scottish for 'flowers'.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: jeffp
Date: 12 Oct 00 - 08:55 AM

Flowers of the Forest is a Scottish lament for the dead, played on the pipes. I assume it is traditional when a Scottish soldier is laid to rest.

jeffp


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Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: Mikey joe
Date: 12 Oct 00 - 09:21 AM

Murray he is saying flowers, but bear in mind Eric Bogle is Scottish so it sounds like 'flures'. Went to see him lsat night in Dundee Excellent. Apart from the annoying drunken middle aged bat who showed little or no respect for Eric.


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Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Oct 00 - 10:41 AM

MIDI of Flowers of the Forest


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Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: Stewie
Date: 12 Oct 00 - 11:02 AM

Murray, I don't remember the title, but Bogle also had an anti-war song with lines something like 'My youngest son came home today' ... 'Like dead meat on a butcher's tray'.

--Stewie.


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Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: Wolfgang
Date: 12 Oct 00 - 11:40 AM

Stewie,
that's a song about Northern Ireland and not one of the WW1 trilogy. The lyrics are in the Forum: here.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 12 Oct 00 - 03:56 PM

Flowers of The Forest IS always played, usually before the last post is sounded at a military funeral or act of Remembrance where Scots soldiers are involved.


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Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 12 Oct 00 - 05:01 PM

The Clancy Brothers do an excellent version of Bogle's "And the BAnd PLayed Waltzing Matilda". To your original question, The phrase is the Flower of the Forest although, I always thought it was the flower of the fallen. CAn We get some confirmation on that from any mudcatters who might know a bit about Scottish military music? Kindest reguards, Neil


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Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 12 Oct 00 - 05:51 PM

It is flowers of the forest, although not a particularly well known tune outside of a) Scotland or b) the military. I don't think it is particularly old, only about 100 yrs or so, give or take a decade.... It is regarded as the Scottish 'Last Post' the tune played over every Scottish war grave or act of remembrance where possible. It has its roots in the playing of the forbidden pipes at the wake for a slain Scottish fighter way back in Edward Longshanks' time - although as pointed out on threads here before, the pipes played in Braveheart over the grave of Wallace snr, are not highland pipes, but bellows pipes.....

LTS


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Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: Jeri
Date: 12 Oct 00 - 06:26 PM

The words of the song seem to indicate it's older than that.


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Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: Drumshanty
Date: 12 Oct 00 - 06:53 PM

It is about the battle of Flodden on 9 September 1513. I believe we were battered but otherwise know very little about the history. When I learnt the song as a kid, I was taught that the "floo'ers" were the young men who did not come back from the battle.

Drumshanty


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Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: Cobble
Date: 12 Oct 00 - 07:01 PM

Flowers of the Forest was writen to commemorate the Battle of Flodden (1513) by Jean Elliot of Minto (1727-1805).

An ancestor.


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Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: Bugsy
Date: 12 Oct 00 - 08:27 PM

Wolfgang, that song is called "All the fine young men" and it is on one of his albums, I just can't put my hand to it at the moment.

YOu could also add.
The Gift Of Years, which tells the story of the Diggers returning to Gallipolli after 75 years.

Cheers

Bugsy


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Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: kendall
Date: 12 Oct 00 - 08:36 PM

Most folks think I did a pretty good job on my tape of The Band etc.


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Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: murray@mpce.mq.edu.au
Date: 13 Oct 00 - 03:29 AM

Bugsy. Please do get your hands on it and tell me the name.

Wolfgang. Thanks for the information. It sounds to me like he is saying something like "fools of the forrest;" but I guess I am not good with Scottish accents. (I should say I know I am not good!)

Murray


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Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: Bugsy
Date: 13 Oct 00 - 03:37 AM

Just checked it out and it's on "Singing the Spirit Home" It's called "All the Fine Young Men"

CHeers

Bugsy


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Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: GUEST,Keith Acheson
Date: 13 Oct 00 - 07:36 AM


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Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: GUEST,Keith Acheson
Date: 13 Oct 00 - 07:43 AM

Flowers is always played by a lone piper at remembrance and funeral services


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Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: Amergin
Date: 13 Oct 00 - 10:36 AM

I was thinking about asking a question about the Flowers of the Forest myself....and here is a thread about it....I seem to remember reading in a biography about Wallace and in that book it mentioned an occurance at one of the battles of Stirling that was similar to the later flowers of the forest and it intimated (at least to me) that they were a group of soldiers surrounding their lord, protecting him and dying....Does anyone here have any information regarding this?

And on a side note in that same book it made several references to a character called Blind Harry....the name sounds vaguely familiar to me, but I have no idea where from....anyone know about him?

Amergin


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Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: murray@mpce.mq.edu.au
Date: 14 Oct 00 - 06:56 AM

Thanks for the info, Bugsy.

Murray


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Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: Wolfgang
Date: 16 Oct 00 - 04:00 AM

The liner notes to 'For King and Country' on 'Down under' written by Eric Bogle:
"The first [second: Band played Waltzing Mathilda, third: No Man's Land] song I ever wrote about the subject that fascinates me most, the first World War. A simple little tune with a simple little message".

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: Max Tone
Date: 16 Oct 00 - 07:03 AM

The playing of the Flowers of the Forest is not just confined to military funerals, but is traditional when putting anybody away. Traditional pipers often refuse to play the tune, unless at a funeral! Rob


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Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: GUEST,Jill B.
Date: 16 Oct 00 - 07:38 PM

Folk singer Priscilla Herdman does a great recording of this song on her premiere album from 1976, available on CD.

http://www.melodylane.net/priscilla.html

for more info.


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Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: murray@mpce.mq.edu.au
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 02:10 AM

Jill, do you mean the song "For King and Country"?

Murray


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Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 11:18 AM

Thanks all: When my father was buried. they Played Amazing Grace on the pipes but now that I know the proper tune. I may just take a run back to Ontario NY and Have my favorite piper do it right. Reguards to all and a heartfelt thanks.Neil


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Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: Bill D
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 04:09 PM

here is a scan of "Flowers of the Forest" from George Farquhar Graham's Songs of Scotland published in the 1870s, I think. It has some information on the origins. (caution..big file for decent viewing..225,000bytes or so)

Flowers of the Forest


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Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: GeorgeH
Date: 18 Oct 00 - 09:03 AM

Am I right in recalling Flodden as one of those occasions where the English slaughtered the Scots? Ironic, then, that the lament is now used for Military funerals of Scots in the service of the English crown (ok, technically British . . )

Seriously, whatever Max Tone says, it's only in military circles that it's traditional. Bogle fairly accurately outlines a burial "with military honours" - presumably ironic, in this context.

June Tabor has twice recorded "No Man's Land" with "Flowers of the Forrest" appended to it. The "essential" recording of it is the final track on the CD "We Died In Hell - They Called it Passchendaele" (MAP CD 93004). A live recording of the first of the Passchendaele Peace Concerts.

G.


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Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 18 Oct 00 - 09:30 AM

George; It would be ironic except that the Highlanders have traditionally been the shock troops for the British since the Seven Years War (French and Indian War for my fellow Americans). Like the Irish units that serve(d) the crown and carried The Minstrel Boy (A rebellion tune against the English) into battle, The Scots did the same. Kindest reguards, Neil


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Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: Bill D
Date: 18 Oct 00 - 12:26 PM

curious to know if anyone viewed the file I posted. (I can't leave it there indefinately, as I have limited space there...will take it down soon, and can repost it if someone needs it later)


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Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: Max Tone
Date: 18 Oct 00 - 04:00 PM

The many pipers I know here in Scotland think of it as a tune confined ONLY to funerals, but I've never heard them differentiate between civil and military. i may be wrong, so I'll check back with the crowd at Saturaday's session......rob


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Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: jeffp
Date: 18 Oct 00 - 04:23 PM

Yes, Bill, I checked it out. Thanks for posting it.

jeffp


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Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 18 Oct 00 - 04:41 PM

Kathryn Tickell does a great version on her Northumbrian pipes of "Flowers of the Forest", but what also makes it is the slide bass guitar (?Ian Carr)


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Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: weepiper
Date: 30 Sep 01 - 04:58 PM

To Amergin,
Blind Harry wrote "The Actes and Deidis of the Illustre and Vallyeant Campioun Schir William Wallace" in about 1477, first printed in 1508. He was also known as Henry the Minstrel and lived probably between 1440 and 1493. He probably gathered stories about Wallace and made them into verse form. He is known to have performed at the court of James IV. I don't think you could easily get hold of the text for the original, but a publisher in Edinburgh put out an edition of the 1722 translation/version done by William Hamilton of Gilbertfield, which was apparently the most commonly owned book in Scotland after the Bible in the 18th century. The title page of this says :
"A new edition of the life and heroick actions of the renoun'd Sir William Wallace, general and governour of Scotland. Wherein the old obsolete words are rendered more intelligible, and adapted to the understanding of such who have not leisure to study the meaning and import of such phrases without the help of a glossary" The new edition is called "Blind Harry's Wallace" and was published by Luath Press in 1998


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Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: Gareth
Date: 30 Sep 01 - 07:26 PM

For King and Country - Yes Wolfgang your are correct to assumne the Ulster/Irish conection - but it relates to the first day of the Somme (1916)

The volunteer divisions of Ulster, by an accident of history, were amoungst the first to assult the Gemany lines. Very few survived.

Gareth


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Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: allie kiwi
Date: 30 Sep 01 - 08:59 PM

Bill D, I'd be really interested in seeing that file you posted a link to. Would it be too much trouble for you to put it up again?

Allie whois again in awe of everyone's breadth of knowledge.


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Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 01 Oct 01 - 01:40 AM

The pipe tune "Floo'ers o' the Forest " is by no means confined to UK shores. Can somebody else confirm that it was played at the funeral of John F. Kennedy? I believe it is often played on such ceremonial occasions in the USA. By the way, there is a strong similarity between "the Floo'ers" and the tune "Hey Tuttie-tuttie", the tune to which Burns wrote "Scots Wha Hae," and his song "The Land o' the Leal". I would guess that the auld Scots lyrics are almost incomprehensible to non Scots in any case! [My apologies to Eric for straying from a thread originally in reference to Himself!] Boab


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Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: GUEST,Adolfo
Date: 01 Oct 01 - 08:05 AM

An interesting thread this about music for specific (and only) usage. In the flamenco tradition there are also some elegiac songs most flamenco singers refuse to sing unless they are going to be sung at funerals. What do you think of Mike Oldfield's version in Voyager? And what's the tune that can be heard at the end of No Man's Land in the Green Linnet Collection? It's a girl singing, very nice voice and strong accent. The context would suggest it's FOTF what it's being played but it is not...Have you heard it?


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Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: Anglo
Date: 01 Oct 01 - 12:56 PM

"...the Green Linnet Collection."

Is there only one?


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Subject: RE: Q about No Mans Land
From: Amergin
Date: 01 Oct 01 - 04:23 PM

Guest, Adolfo, that would be June Tabor that was mentioned above...the tune is Flowers Of The Forest....

Anglo, Gest, Adolfo was meaning the 25 anniversary collection set they put out several years ago....

Weepiper, thank you for your information! I will see if my local bookseller will be able to get ahold of it for me...

another question was not answered....I heard of a story about the Flowers of the Forest...anybody know it?


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