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Middle East Problems

GUEST,bob s. 13 Oct 00 - 01:00 PM
wysiwyg 13 Oct 00 - 01:04 PM
black walnut 13 Oct 00 - 01:15 PM
GUEST,Lena who can't log in 13 Oct 00 - 02:01 PM
Kim C 13 Oct 00 - 02:14 PM
GUEST,Lena who can't etc 13 Oct 00 - 02:24 PM
kendall 13 Oct 00 - 03:01 PM
JeffM 13 Oct 00 - 03:01 PM
GUEST,Lena 13 Oct 00 - 03:05 PM
Peter T. 13 Oct 00 - 03:30 PM
GUEST,Parthenon 13 Oct 00 - 03:31 PM
katlaughing 13 Oct 00 - 04:00 PM
Amergin 13 Oct 00 - 04:12 PM
Clinton Hammond2 13 Oct 00 - 04:20 PM
kendall 13 Oct 00 - 04:25 PM
GUEST,Irwin Goldenberg 13 Oct 00 - 04:45 PM
Jed at Work 13 Oct 00 - 04:45 PM
wildlone 13 Oct 00 - 06:12 PM
MarkS 13 Oct 00 - 06:22 PM
GUEST,Irwin Goldenberg 13 Oct 00 - 06:36 PM
GUEST,mousethief (at the library) 13 Oct 00 - 06:40 PM
wildlone 13 Oct 00 - 06:45 PM
McGrath of Harlow 13 Oct 00 - 07:43 PM
Sorcha 13 Oct 00 - 09:44 PM
Oversoul 13 Oct 00 - 09:48 PM
GUEST,Irwin Goldenberg 13 Oct 00 - 10:09 PM
mg 13 Oct 00 - 10:21 PM
Oversoul 13 Oct 00 - 10:23 PM
GUEST 13 Oct 00 - 10:30 PM
Troll 13 Oct 00 - 10:51 PM
Oversoul 13 Oct 00 - 10:54 PM
Sorcha 13 Oct 00 - 10:55 PM
Haruo 13 Oct 00 - 11:39 PM
Lepus Rex 13 Oct 00 - 11:56 PM
GUEST,Rashi 13 Oct 00 - 11:58 PM
Lepus Rex 14 Oct 00 - 12:03 AM
Sorcha 14 Oct 00 - 12:13 AM
GUEST,Thomas L. Friedman 14 Oct 00 - 09:23 AM
John Hindsill 14 Oct 00 - 10:24 AM
Gern 14 Oct 00 - 10:36 AM
wysiwyg 14 Oct 00 - 11:02 AM
GUEST,Sheila 14 Oct 00 - 12:54 PM
GUEST,Colwyn Dane 14 Oct 00 - 01:04 PM
Peter T. 14 Oct 00 - 03:34 PM
McGrath of Harlow 14 Oct 00 - 04:01 PM
GUEST,Abn bin Husseini 14 Oct 00 - 04:13 PM
Haruo 14 Oct 00 - 05:10 PM
Gern 14 Oct 00 - 05:16 PM
Peter T. 14 Oct 00 - 05:21 PM
Bill D 14 Oct 00 - 05:57 PM
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Subject: Middle East Problems
From: GUEST,bob s.
Date: 13 Oct 00 - 01:00 PM

Strange silence on the middle east happenings. Anyone have an opinion/comment/prediction about what is going on and what will happen next?

Bob S.


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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems
From: wysiwyg
Date: 13 Oct 00 - 01:04 PM

My comment is that my our two sons are in the Navy, one on a carrier in the Gulf, and we are praying safety and peace for all.

~S~


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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems
From: black walnut
Date: 13 Oct 00 - 01:15 PM

i keep listening to the news, and trying to figure it all out....

~black walnut


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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems
From: GUEST,Lena who can't log in
Date: 13 Oct 00 - 02:01 PM

Very,very,very worried.And so sure it will all collapse in a couple of days,and here we'll go again...and so scared about a slice of my heart threatening to get on a plane back to Tel Aviv.But here in Australia there is no chance to get a decent coverage of the matter...


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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems
From: Kim C
Date: 13 Oct 00 - 02:14 PM

I do not want my friend in the Army involved in any way, shape or form.

I guess I am very naive, I really don't have a mean bone in my body and I have a hard time comprehending why people can't just get along. I know that seems silly to say. Maybe I oversimplify... if your situation is bad, just get out of it. Well, I know, it isn't always that easy. But nobody said it would be easy. I know that a lot of Palestinians have managed to leave there but not everyone has the ability to go to another country.

I do not know what the answer is. If I did, well, that would solve a lot of things...


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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems
From: GUEST,Lena who can't etc
Date: 13 Oct 00 - 02:24 PM

I can't either.My slice of heart is jew and she says (.No,i'm not lesbian yet,don't get confused) it's the palestinians'problem,because they just want to keep up even if they're a minority.I see in the palestinian people a bunch of fanatics sometimes,and a bunch of persecuted people some other times(they are a few and not reach enough-and when I see them as persecuted people,i think about persecuted jewish minorities...it's a spin.Apparently,yes.not only we don't learn respect or tolerance from our pain,but we really have a thing against getting well together.and,once again,this scares me.


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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems
From: kendall
Date: 13 Oct 00 - 03:01 PM

Has anyone noticed that the Palistinians throw rocks, and the Israelis respond with bullets? Or that this latest round of hatred started with Arial Sherone visiting that site which the Palistinians hold sacred?


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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems
From: JeffM
Date: 13 Oct 00 - 03:01 PM

There will be peace. Everyone wants it. It will not be achieved by force. It may take more time, but the parties involved will realize this and ultimately talk until its resolved.

This may sound simplistic, but I believe it's the only way it will come about.


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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems
From: GUEST,Lena
Date: 13 Oct 00 - 03:05 PM

hope so Jeff.Thank you really
Lena


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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems
From: Peter T.
Date: 13 Oct 00 - 03:30 PM

The silence is probably due to an implicit, and I think pretty sensible, assumption that discussion of this topic in this forum will cause grief. There is enough real grief to go around already.

yours, Peter T.


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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems
From: GUEST,Parthenon
Date: 13 Oct 00 - 03:31 PM

The problems of Palestine are the makings of the western powers. If someone stole your land and gave it to a load of foreigners, would you be happy about it - would you hell!

Much as I have sympathy for the victims of the holocaust, the problems all stem from the western powers taking Palestinian land, and giving it to the Jews. More correctly, it could be said that they did not do enough to stop the Jews taking the land.

If they wanted the Jews to return to their homeland, they could have given them New York, as there were more Jews there in the 1940's than in Palestine.


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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems
From: katlaughing
Date: 13 Oct 00 - 04:00 PM

JeffM, I think you are right. I heard some interesting comments on NPR this morning. Seems this is the first time in probably 50 years that so many powers, throughout the world, have banded together to work for a peaceful outcome on a problem like this. The person who was making this report was really impressed with the diplomacy and general agreement, among all of those powers, that this critical issue must be resolved quickly and peacefully.

Praise, I will remember your sons in my meditations on this. My neice and her husband are in Italy; he is an important part of Air Force ground support.

Lena, if you go to www.drudgereport.com you can find news reports from UPI, Reuters, AP, and a few others. You should be able to find some places in the middle East which are online and would have local news, too. If I come across any I will post them for you.

May Peace Prevail,

kat


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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems
From: Amergin
Date: 13 Oct 00 - 04:12 PM

KimC, you said I know that a lot of Palestinians have managed to leave there but not everyone has the ability to go to another country.

I say that it's not a simple matter of Palestinians being able to leave.....It is their home, why should they have to leave? If the Chinese landed and took over our country, would you just pack up and go? Or would you stay in hopes that one day they will go?

To me I find this whole situation ironic.....The Israelis are practicing the same sort of persecution on the Palestinians that was pushed unto them for millenia....I wonder if somewhere deep down inside they think that since that they're the ones in power now, they can exact a sort of vengeance by proxy upon a minority who's crime is to follow a different route to God....

Amergin


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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems
From: Clinton Hammond2
Date: 13 Oct 00 - 04:20 PM

It's not that I'm not sympathetic to loss and the potential for loss, but...

Isn't it the military's job to kill, destroy and die so that civilains don't have to?

I think we'd be better off as a planet if we left them alone and let them sort it out themselves... They'd either kill each other off, of come to an agreement and either way the problem would be solved...

Not that I wouldn't feel differently if I was involved, but I'm not so I don't...

Peace Out Folks!

{~`


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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems
From: kendall
Date: 13 Oct 00 - 04:25 PM

If you believe the old testement, it was the Palistinians who took over the "promised land" when the Jews were scattered.


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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems
From: GUEST,Irwin Goldenberg
Date: 13 Oct 00 - 04:45 PM

Dear Kendall,

You wrote: "If you believe the old testement, it was the Palistinians who took over the "promised land" when the Jews were scattered."

I'm afraid that your knowledge of the Biblical and post-Biblical history is seriously flawed.

1) The Jews were "scattered" in the year 70 C.E. (A.D.). The narrative of the Hebrew Bible (what Christians call the "Old Testament") ended several centuries before that.

2) The Palestinians are Arabs. The Arabs first arrived in Palestine in the 7th Century.

Sincerely,

Irwin Goldenberg


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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems
From: Jed at Work
Date: 13 Oct 00 - 04:45 PM

Yes I did notice, kendall, and I agree. Also, the Old Testament also implies the Jews took it over previously, if I am not mistaken.

I hope and pray for peace there, but I fear we will be in for very serious problems, before it is resolved. I hope and pray also that as nations, we support justice over all other considerations.

This problem area will take time and serious effort to bring to peace.


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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems
From: wildlone
Date: 13 Oct 00 - 06:12 PM

There seem to be many parallels to the situation in Eire, In that an invading force takes your homeland And you end up without anything. I know that I am simplifying the situation but terrorism gets You noticed,
if the world media keeps on showing the stone throwing On one side and the machine guns on the other it is good for the "cause" I wonder what would have been said if the UK army had attacked The Falls road with gunships after the Hyde Park or Tower bombing
How many benefit events are being held in the USA to help the oppressed? In Palestine
I know that this post will generate a lot of flack but I feel I need to say it
dave


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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems
From: MarkS
Date: 13 Oct 00 - 06:22 PM

Does anybody else remember the Palestinian troubles really started with the Black September movement, when the Palestinians got thrown out of Jordan? Why don't we get after the Jordanians to let the Palestinians come back home.
MarkS


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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems
From: GUEST,Irwin Goldenberg
Date: 13 Oct 00 - 06:36 PM

Dear MarkS,

Ethnically and historically, the Jordanians and the Palestinians are the same people.

The areas now considered to be Palestine are the West Bank and Gaza. Prior to the Six-Day War in 1967, the West Bank was part of Jordan and Gaza was part of Egypt. From 1948 until 1967, those Arab countries could have given those areas to the Palestinians, no questions asked. However, the Arab countries had no interest or desire to do so.

Sincerely,

Irwin Goldenberg

P.S. As to the argument that the area belongs to the Palestinians because they were displaced by the Jews, why don't you apply that argument to the United States and give it back to the Indians. Your white, European ancestors stole the country from them. Leave my ancestors out of it though, they were busy being murdered by the Czar's pogroms.


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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems
From: GUEST,mousethief (at the library)
Date: 13 Oct 00 - 06:40 PM

The palestinians are Arab inasmuch as they speak Arabic. But their genealogy is not that simple. Most of the people who are palestinians are descended from people who were there at least at the time of the crusades (say the 12th century) and probably earlier. Back when Palestine was part of the Roman empire (I can't remember when it fell to the Arabs, maybe the 7th century?) it was a diverse ethnic community speaking primarily Syriac, a descendent of the Aramaic that Jesus et al. spoke in the 1st century much as Italian is a descendent of Latin.

Many of the so-called "Samarians" back in the 1st century (AD or CE) were descendents of the Northern Kingdom ("Israel") who were not taken into Babylonian captivity, and who held to the Five Books of Moses because the prophets in Babylon weren't part of THEIR experience of God.

Many of these same people became Christians over the course of the next several hundred years. Not all of the inhabitants of Palestine at the time of the Muslim takeover converted to Islam; and many Christians moved to the area during the middle ages. As a result, there is a small but not insignificant minority of Palestinian Arabs who are Christians (primarily Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox), who can trace at least part of their ancestry right back to the time of Christ, right there in Palestine. And for that matter probably the lion's share of the Muslim Palestinians can trace their ancestry back just as far.

So it's far too simple and quite erroneous to say that the Palestinians "stole" the land from the Jews.

But it's quite obvious how the Jews have treated the Palestinians from the time they were granted their autonomy from the British in 1940. While "genocide" is too strong a word, "harassment" is far too weak. The reality lies somewhere in the middle. The so-called Jewish settlements were not made in unoccupied, open land. Many if not most were made by driving out the people who had lived there for over a thousand years, destroying their livelihood by chopping down their olive trees, and forcing them to move somewhere else.

It's uncomfortably an awful lot like what was done in this nation to the Cherokee, Crow et al.

It really sickens me how everybody keeps saying, "if only those nasty Palestinians would just stop throwing rocks, then we could go back to peace again." How many Palestinians have died since this current uprising began? How many Jewish Israelis? Now who is the oppressor and who the oppressed?

I will continue to pray for the peace of Jerusalem, as we are commanded to. (Psalm 122:6). May Jews, Christians, and Muslims somehow learn to live together in peace.

Alex
O..O
=o=


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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems
From: wildlone
Date: 13 Oct 00 - 06:45 PM

here are a few links to news sites
"palestinian times" .

Jeruselem Post .

Israel Wire .
dave


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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 13 Oct 00 - 07:43 PM

"The politics of the last atrocity" - that's what we see here.

You have a series of terrible things done to each other by two sets of opponents, and each atrocity leads on to its retaliation, and each sides sets aside the atrocity they are guilty of,and concentrates on the one committed against them.

A terrified child killed in the arms of his father as they cower for shelter in a street raked with bullets by a sniper in a fortified guard-post.("Crossfire" they tried to say.) A rabbi beaten to death as he tries to stop a crowd tearing down a shrine. Kids with slingshots shot dead by soldiers in body armour. Captured soldiers lynched. Gunships firing rockets at the centre of a town. Burnings and killings, the kinds of things that have abeen seen in pogroms - but carried out by Jews.

Take any of these on their own, they are monstrous and incomprehensible. Take them in context, and they are still monstrous, but only too easy to understand. But it seems that people bound up in the struggle cannot help but see them in isolation from each other, and to only really see the ones that justify the actions of "their" side.

Ireland or "the Holy Land", or any one of scores of other conflicts. We always construct a narrative that starts where we want, and ends where we want, and leaves out the bits we don't like to think about.

For example: "Does anybody else remember the Palestinian troubles really started with the Black September movement, when the Palestinians got thrown out of Jordan". But then they were only there because they'd been ethnically cleansed from their homes by the incomers. Who were only there because of what had been dione to them by the anti-semites of Europe.

And you can go back to the Crusadrs. Or the Romans. Or Joshua and his divinely ordained campaign of genocide.

It's true that what has been done to the Palestinians is no worse than what was done to the Native Americans. Not much better either. And you can't undo the crimes of history. If you try to you just set off a new cycle of crimes.

But it is possible to acknowledge that crimes have been done, and until that happens moving on is impossible. The crime that has been done to the Palestinians over the past three generation or so has it's roots in the anti-semitism in Europe, culminating in Nazi Germany. Both peoples in "the Holy Land" are in a real sense both victims of Hitlerism, and of the centurues of hate and persecution of the Jews in Euroope that led up to that. And the latest phase of anti-semitism is directed especially against Arabs.


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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems
From: Sorcha
Date: 13 Oct 00 - 09:44 PM

Thank you, McGrath, for one of the most eloquent posts I have seen here in a long time. Both sides are wrong, yet both sides are equally right. If any one had all the answers to all the religous/ethinic/nationalistic problems on the planet, it would indeed be a true miracle.

I will hold all those in danger in the light, no matter what their religon/ethnic background, etc. Means, I guess, Pray for the People and the Planet.


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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems
From: Oversoul
Date: 13 Oct 00 - 09:48 PM

Putting trigger locks on rocks might help. Also background checks at "rock shows" will help.


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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems
From: GUEST,Irwin Goldenberg
Date: 13 Oct 00 - 10:09 PM

Dear Davecoje,

The situation in the Middle East is tragic. The enemies of peace are winning, the human race is losing. Your snide comment is in extremely poor taste.

Sincerely,

Irwin Goldenberg


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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems
From: mg
Date: 13 Oct 00 - 10:21 PM

here is a source of information...connected with McGill University. http://www.arts.mcgill.ca/MEPP/PRRN/prfront.html

There is a site that is from children of a couple of the camps. They would like to hear from other children from around the world. One theme that keeps repeating is the world has forgotten them.

I do not condone the violence and would act forcefully to stop it. At the same time I think I must acknowledge that these people have been done a terrible wrong and the world owes them for their suffering. Such things as more immigration, educational opportunities, teams to help with things like sanitation...I hope to go there myself in a couple of years for a while...There is a Palestine, whether it exists only in their hearts and memories and now in cyberspace. One by one we can acknowledge them while at the same time condeming the violence and terrorism.

mg


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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems
From: Oversoul
Date: 13 Oct 00 - 10:23 PM

Pardon me Mr. Goldberg, but the whole freaking mess is in poor taste, and something that the rational part of the world finds boring. I am sick of this struggle, I am tired of this conflict. Can someone see we are in the 21st century? Get serious.


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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems
From: GUEST
Date: 13 Oct 00 - 10:30 PM

ONLY A SICK BASTARD FINDS HUMOR IN THE SUFFERING OF OTHER HUMAN BEINGS.

DAVECOJE IS A SICK BASTARD!


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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems
From: Troll
Date: 13 Oct 00 - 10:51 PM

And GUEST is a gutless wonder. If you intend to flame, have the guts to leave a name. No, I don't agree with DAVECOJE. But if he has a problem with my opinion of him, my e-mail is on file and he can PM me if he likes.
As regards the question at hand, any solution that does not deal with the problem of the Temple Mount is doomed to failure and THAT problem is well nigh insurmountable. Perhaps the U.N. should that over, declare Jerusalem an international city under U.N. governance and then divide the rest of the country.

troll


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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems
From: Oversoul
Date: 13 Oct 00 - 10:54 PM

PM me if you have a problem GUEST. I have my arguement. Put down your rock, and write to me.


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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems
From: Sorcha
Date: 13 Oct 00 - 10:55 PM

Thanks troll. Saved me the trouble. The Temple Mount should in an ideal world, be accessible to any who want to go there............and hasn't UN control been done before? I can't remember where.........(not Berlin, maybe at the Hague/World Court?)


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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems
From: Haruo
Date: 13 Oct 00 - 11:39 PM

Thanks, Alex and McGrath (and most of the rest of you, but especially those two, for reminding us of the complexity of the real world, and the need to step back both to gain perspective and to examine our own motives and presuppositions.)

Liland


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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 13 Oct 00 - 11:56 PM

Ah, cool... Everything I was going to say has been said, and more politely and eloquently than I would have done it. So here I am, shutting up for a change. ;)

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems
From: GUEST,Rashi
Date: 13 Oct 00 - 11:58 PM

I agree 100% with Mr. Goldenberg's points. They are historically accurate. Back in the 1970's I disagreed with the whole concept of the JDL (Jewish Defense League), but in light of what has been transpiring in Israel for the last several years leading up to the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin, and everything being orchestrated by the PLO, Hamass, Iran and Syria, I think Meir Kahane had the right idea as far as dealing with those unhappy Arabs and Palestinians. "You can leave with compensation or you can leave without out, but either way you're leaving." The land of Israel belongs to, and was mandated to the Jewish people. The Arabs are guests.


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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems
From: Lepus Rex
Date: 14 Oct 00 - 12:03 AM

Uh, Rabin was killed by a JEW, you stupid twat. OK, now I'm REALLY out. ;)

---Lepus Rex


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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems
From: Sorcha
Date: 14 Oct 00 - 12:13 AM

Rashi, who mandated what? Moses and Joshua? Richard the Lion Heart? The British with the Balfour Declaration? This is not a simplistic issue, and I feel that Mr. Goldberg knows that too. Pray tell, just WHY should someone leave where "home" is just because some other ethnic group says he "has" to? Compensation be damned.

I am afraid I would be mightily upset if the Lakota and Northern Cheyenne told me I did not own my house anymore, just find someplace else............like where? Not that the Lakota and Northern Cheyenne don't have a legal/moral/ethical "right" to say that, they do. Just where am I supposed to go? To the countries my ancestors 3 generations removed came from?

I am quite sure that Ireland, England and the Netherlands would give me a land grant because my ancestors chose to leave those places.............(sarcasm, here, folks.)

Let's face it: In our world, Might Makes Right. Doesn't make it Right, but it is sad but true.


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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems
From: GUEST,Thomas L. Friedman
Date: 14 Oct 00 - 09:23 AM

Maybe the most revealing feature of this latest explosion in Israeli- Palestinian violence is the fact that this war has no name. The "intifada," the Palestinian uprising of the late 1980's, got its name almost immediately. Intifada loosely means "shaking off," and Palestinians were said to be trying to shake off the Israeli occupation. The name made so much sense that even Israelis used it. But the violence of the last two weeks still has no name. And that is not an accident. It's because even the participants can't explain what it's about, or, deep down, they're embarrassed to do so.

Here's why: The roots of this latest violent outburst can be traced directly back to President Clinton's press conference after the breakdown of the Camp David summit. At that time, Mr. Clinton pointedly, deliberately — and rightly — stated that Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak had offered unprecedented compromises at the summit — more than 90 percent of the West Bank for a Palestinian state, a partial resolution of the Palestinian refugee problem and Palestinian sovereignty over the Muslim and Christian quarters of the Old City of Jerusalem — and that Yasir Arafat had not responded in kind, or at all.

Palestinians were shocked by Mr. Clinton's assessment. For the first time in a long time, Mr. Arafat no longer had the moral high ground. He, and the Arab leaders, had grown so comfortable with Bibi Netanyahu as prime minister of Israel — a man the world always blamed for any peace breakdown — that they were stunned and unprepared for the seriousness of Mr. Barak's offer and the bluntness of Mr. Clinton's assessment. Other world leaders told Mr. Arafat the same thing: Barak deserves a serious counteroffer.

Mr. Arafat had a dilemma: make some compromises, build on Mr. Barak's opening bid and try to get it closer to 100 percent — and regain the moral high ground that way — or provoke the Israelis into brutalizing Palestinians again, and regain the moral high ground that way. Mr. Arafat chose the latter. So instead of responding to Mr. Barak's peacemaking overture, he and his boys responded to Ariel Sharon's peace- destroying provocation. In short, the Palestinians could not deal with Barak, so they had to turn him into Sharon. And they did.

Of course, the Palestinians couldn't explain it in those terms, so instead they unfurled all the old complaints about the brutality of the continued Israeli occupation and settlement- building. Frankly, the Israeli checkpoints and continued settlement- building are oppressive. But what the Palestinians and Arabs refuse to acknowledge is that today's Israeli prime minister was offering them a dignified exit. It was far from perfect for Palestinians, but it was a proposal that, with the right approach, could have been built upon and widened. Imagine if when Mr. Sharon visited the Temple Mount, Mr. Arafat had ordered his people to welcome him with open arms and say, "When this area is under Palestinian sovereignty, every Jew will be welcome, even you, Mr. Sharon." Imagine the impact that would have had on Israelis.

But that would have been an act of statesmanship and real peaceful intentions, and Mr. Arafat, it's now clear, possesses neither. He prefers to play the victim rather than the statesman. This explosion of violence would be totally understandable if the Palestinians had no alternative. But that was not the case. What's new here is not the violence, but the context. It came in the context of a serious Israeli peace overture, which Mr. Arafat has chosen to spurn. That's why this is Arafat's war. That's its real name.

If you want to know how confused the Palestinians are, consider this quotation from their senior negotiator, Hasan Asfour: "There can be no [resumption of] peace talks without an international investigation [into the latest violence]. Our people did not die for nothing."

I see. These Palestinians died so there can be an international investigation into why they were killed. Sad. What a totally messed up set of priorities.

"Basically," said Stephen P. Cohen, a Middle East expert at the Israel Policy Forum, "the Arabs and Palestinians have spent so many years, and used up so much energy, from 1967 to 2000, just getting to the point where they would make peace with Israel if they got 100 percent of what they wanted, that they have no energy now to fight the real battle, which is getting their people to accept 90 percent. The danger — if we don't, despite everything, still find a way to erect a peace — is that the only energy left will be with those who want to undermine everything."

With the gleeful, savage mob murder of Israeli soldiers in Ramallah, on top of a week of Israeli-Palestinian killings and now a suicide attack on a U.S. ship in Yemen, the whole region is coming unglued. What's scary is that no one knows what to do next. Moderates cannot continue to argue that if Israel went far enough, it would have a Palestinian partner. But the hard-liners, now saying, "I told you so — the iron fist is the only way to deal with the Palestinians," are peddling a fantasy as well. The iron fist is not a sustainable solution for a state of six million Jews living in a sea of one billion angry Muslims.

So what do you do when there is no partner for peace and there is no alternative to peace? Mourn the dead. Mourn the dead and pray that after this explosion of hatred is over, the parties will find a way to live apart. Otherwise the future is just endless killing and dying, killing and dying, killing and dying, killing and dying, killing and dying, killing and dying. . . .


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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems
From: John Hindsill
Date: 14 Oct 00 - 10:24 AM

What an insightful posting by Mr. Friedman of the so-called peace process and the intransigence of the Arafat group. Is he the author/columnist of current events?

I believe that the major reason, aside from historical/Biblical rationale, that Israel insists on controlling the Temple Mount is that from 1948 until 1967 Jewish folk had no access to it. At that time it was under Jordanian/Arab control. Israel would not accept that again, and we know how trustworthy UN control can be.

John


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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems
From: Gern
Date: 14 Oct 00 - 10:36 AM

Gee, I wish Mudcat could address serious matters with some consistant maturity and consideration. While most do, the nastiest ones seem to dominate. Parties in the Middle East need to disengage, and so do forum flamers. On the other hand, there is plenty of substance in the postings here, and I would like to respond. Mr. Friedman is a respected voice in these matters: did he really post this message? It is a verbatim copy of his Oct. 14th syndicated column. This column is embarassingly titled "Arafat's War," as if Arafat has control of this situation and can disburse angry demonstrators at will. The author knows better, having covered the Middle East for decades. But as an enthusiastic supporter of our continuing war against Iraq, Friedman's commitment to peace and justice is now suspect. Barak has far more control over his security forces than Arafat has over riled individuals, and it is Barak's troops that have been internationally condemned for aggression and overreaction. Mr. Goldenberg makes some reasonable points here (including urgent pleas for good taste, but has no right dceclaring that Palestinians and Jordanians are historically and ethnically identical. They certainly do not see themselves that way! Some biblical references in this discussion are misleading, such as "Arabs moving in after the Hebrews were scattered." The term 'Philistines' (whose meaning has changed over the years) is an Anglicized version of Palestinian, and refers to a portion of the essentially indigenous peoples in the region. They and Hebrews lived together in peace for most of this region's multi-millenial history. Inter-communal violence is largely a recent development, correctly identified by someone here as resulting from big-power interference. Sadly, "peace processes" often unleash spasms of violence before the participants remember what the came to the negotiations to accomplish. For all involved, pray that this is the wake-up call needed to make the tough concessions on both sides that allow peace.


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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems
From: wysiwyg
Date: 14 Oct 00 - 11:02 AM

This is a subject about which I used to know quite a lot. The best reference work I ever saw, and I was looking, is a book called ARAB AND JEW. It was so good I bought extra copies. If there is anyone who wants to know what the hearts of the people caught in this feel like, in their own words and with a view toward the reader doing their own thinking, PM me and I will send you a copy. It will make you think, and should make you very uncomfortable, for the hurts under these conflicts are so deep that a human respoonse is to look deep at yourself for your own deep hurts before presuming to have an opinion.

The good news is--

THERE IS STILL NO SUBSTITUTE FOR REALLY KNOWING ANOTHER HUMAN BEING. TRUTH AND LOVE ARE NEVER FAR APART. LOVE IS THE MOST POWERFUL WEAPON TO HAND, AND IT IS AT HAND AT ALL TIMES. INCLUDING YOUR OWN HAND. YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FIRST FOR YOUR OWN HAND.

Anything else I might say I have said in the threads on the term [folk nazis] and frankly I am not feeling quite well enough to say it all again, and I don't think most of you would listen because if you had, when I said it then, this would be a different discussion. Maybe it is a different discussion. Maybe my tolerance is low today. It happens. I'm your MudSis, not a mudsaint. We say, "I'm just a sinner saved by grace." Today I am not even that sure, more just a singer saved by grapes.

So I think this time I will just pray. I do know at least that much today.

And kat, thanks. Me too.

Oh, and davecoje, guests can't PM. (Unless they are members who just didn't post under their member name.) If you want to argue with guests, you have to attract them into joining first. There is an art to it. You have seen me in action with yourself. That's how it works. And I miss you. Write to me wouldja?

~Susan


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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems
From: GUEST,Sheila
Date: 14 Oct 00 - 12:54 PM

Thank you Mr. Goldenberg and Mr. Friedman, for your intelligent and knowledgeable reports. For anyone who wishes to see what is actually going on in Israel, check out www.arutz@israelnationalnews.com. Do not depend on the biased and sometimes slanted reportage in the local papers.


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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems
From: GUEST,Colwyn Dane
Date: 14 Oct 00 - 01:04 PM

G'day,

What's new in the world except the history you don't know?
The Near East & Middle East countries have certainly had far more than their fair share of conflicts.

Tracking back to Desert Shield/Storm:

When Iraw invaded Kuwait many Palestinians living in Kuwait gave active support to Iraq.

I could argue that Desert Storm ended prematurely because if
Iraq had been occupied then perhaps "two cooks could have been hit by a rolling stone"
- land south of the Eurphrates and bordering on Jordan in the west and Kuwait in the east - could have been given
to the Palestinians as a reward/punishment? They would have had enough oil to lubricate their economy
and perhaps the confrontation with Israel would have eased.
But of course the displaced Iraqis would then have an axe to grind and so the torch would be taken up by another cause.
Ah well back to the design board!

Jerusalem should be, like Tangiers before, administered as an International Zone by,
perhaps, Israel, Saudi Arabia and The Vatican; with the UN to play referee.

A theory is flown and others will be launched so as to test the airworthiness of the original.

Bcnu.


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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems
From: Peter T.
Date: 14 Oct 00 - 03:34 PM

I am sorry I was wrong.
yours, Peter T.


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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Oct 00 - 04:01 PM

I never thought I'd say this, but looking at the TV the last few days, I'm finding myself appreciating the moderation of the British in the Northern Ireland war.

For the last 30 years the British Army was up against crowds of stone-throwing young men in Northern Ireland. And the British Army are a pretty nasty bunch when they get going, and as for the British Governments in power most of that time... But, even with Bloody Sunday, there has been nothing to measure up to what has been happening these past few weeks in the way of killing of uppity civilians.

The lynching of the Israeli soldiers who got captured in the vicinity of a funeral of a youngman killed by the Israeli army - thjat was directly comparable to what happened to two soldiers in Belfast on one occasion. But there weren't any gunships firing rockets into the Falls Raid in instant reprisal.

And yet you get a decent man like Shimon Peres on the box the other day talking about how there's been a restrained response by the Israeli army with the violence coming from the other side. Stones and catapults against guns and rockets.

Maybe the truth is that neither set of politicians in "the Holy Land" have much control over what happens on the front line. It's pretty clear that Arafat hasn't got the power to stop kids loosing off their catapults at the soldiers, and maybe Baruch hasn't actually got the power to stop the soldiers shooting back with live ammunition.

Maybe somehow something fresh will come out of this.I dream of a Palestinian Gandhi, who can get his or her people to realise that non-violent resistance would be more effective than stone throwing, if carried through with the same degree of willingness to die before giving in that the stone throwers have demonstrated.

I dream of him or her emerging maybe from the group of people who haven't had a mention so far here, the Arabic Israelis, the ones who managed to stay in their homeland, at least nine of whom were shot by their fellow citizens in the Israeli army. And I am sure that if that were to happen, there would be some Jewish Israelis who would be willing to risk death beside them.


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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems
From: GUEST,Abn bin Husseini
Date: 14 Oct 00 - 04:13 PM

We would like to thank the people of Mudcat Cafe for their moral support. Despite the fact that your American government stands with the Israeli oppressors, we know that you, the people, are with us as we rise up. In time, we will be victorious and the Jews will be driven into the sea.

The support of the people of Mudcat Cafe helps to give us strength.


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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems
From: Haruo
Date: 14 Oct 00 - 05:10 PM

From: Peter T.
Date: 13-Oct-00 - 03:30 PM

The silence is probably due to an implicit, and I think pretty sensible, assumption that discussion of this topic in this forum will cause grief. There is enough real grief to go around already.

yours, Peter T.


Subject: RE: Middle East Problems
From: Peter T.
Date: 14-Oct-00 - 03:34 PM

I am sorry I was wrong.
yours, Peter T.


I am being a little facetious about a very unfunny topic here, but Peter, are you implying that there is not enough real grief to go around already? Also, did you mean perhaps to punctuate after "sorry"?
Liland


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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems
From: Gern
Date: 14 Oct 00 - 05:16 PM

Can we at least agree to stop sending falsely signed, fabricated messages? Can we at least show respect for all parties in this dispute while still advocating our points? Do we at least have the confidence in our point of view to express it honesly and without racist allusions or derogatory references? The easily aroused bitterness and hatred here destroys all hope of intelligent discussion, and drives away thoughtful participants. Even worse, it stirs up the same ugly emotions so rampant in the Middle East today. Can't we do better than this?


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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems
From: Peter T.
Date: 14 Oct 00 - 05:21 PM

I am sorry that I was wrong in my assessment that people would sensibly stay away from this topic. The result has more than proved my point.

yours, Peter


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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Oct 00 - 05:57 PM

.....what comes to my mind is part of "The Merry Minuet"

"The whole world is festering
With unhappy souls
The French hate the Germans,
The Germans hate the Poles

Italians hate Yugoslavs
South Africans hate the Dutch
And I don't like anybody very much "

...if everyone keeps saying "I am right, they are wrong", it is hopeless...the disputed area is revered and held sacred by BOTH sides...if they cannot have a state which encompasses both sides and allows them to walk, work and worship side-by-side, then they are doomed to fight and hate. It is sad...it is unfathomably sad...but it seems to be, to quote Nietzsche, "Human...all too human"


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