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Middle East Problems
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Subject: Middle East Problems From: GUEST,bob s. Date: 13 Oct 00 - 01:00 PM Strange silence on the middle east happenings. Anyone have an opinion/comment/prediction about what is going on and what will happen next? Bob S. |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: wysiwyg Date: 13 Oct 00 - 01:04 PM My comment is that my our two sons are in the Navy, one on a carrier in the Gulf, and we are praying safety and peace for all. ~S~ |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: black walnut Date: 13 Oct 00 - 01:15 PM i keep listening to the news, and trying to figure it all out.... ~black walnut |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: GUEST,Lena who can't log in Date: 13 Oct 00 - 02:01 PM Very,very,very worried.And so sure it will all collapse in a couple of days,and here we'll go again...and so scared about a slice of my heart threatening to get on a plane back to Tel Aviv.But here in Australia there is no chance to get a decent coverage of the matter... |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: Kim C Date: 13 Oct 00 - 02:14 PM I do not want my friend in the Army involved in any way, shape or form. I guess I am very naive, I really don't have a mean bone in my body and I have a hard time comprehending why people can't just get along. I know that seems silly to say. Maybe I oversimplify... if your situation is bad, just get out of it. Well, I know, it isn't always that easy. But nobody said it would be easy. I know that a lot of Palestinians have managed to leave there but not everyone has the ability to go to another country. I do not know what the answer is. If I did, well, that would solve a lot of things... |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: GUEST,Lena who can't etc Date: 13 Oct 00 - 02:24 PM I can't either.My slice of heart is jew and she says (.No,i'm not lesbian yet,don't get confused) it's the palestinians'problem,because they just want to keep up even if they're a minority.I see in the palestinian people a bunch of fanatics sometimes,and a bunch of persecuted people some other times(they are a few and not reach enough-and when I see them as persecuted people,i think about persecuted jewish minorities...it's a spin.Apparently,yes.not only we don't learn respect or tolerance from our pain,but we really have a thing against getting well together.and,once again,this scares me. |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: kendall Date: 13 Oct 00 - 03:01 PM Has anyone noticed that the Palistinians throw rocks, and the Israelis respond with bullets? Or that this latest round of hatred started with Arial Sherone visiting that site which the Palistinians hold sacred? |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: JeffM Date: 13 Oct 00 - 03:01 PM There will be peace. Everyone wants it. It will not be achieved by force. It may take more time, but the parties involved will realize this and ultimately talk until its resolved. This may sound simplistic, but I believe it's the only way it will come about. |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: GUEST,Lena Date: 13 Oct 00 - 03:05 PM hope so Jeff.Thank you really Lena |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: Peter T. Date: 13 Oct 00 - 03:30 PM The silence is probably due to an implicit, and I think pretty sensible, assumption that discussion of this topic in this forum will cause grief. There is enough real grief to go around already. yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: GUEST,Parthenon Date: 13 Oct 00 - 03:31 PM The problems of Palestine are the makings of the western powers. If someone stole your land and gave it to a load of foreigners, would you be happy about it - would you hell! Much as I have sympathy for the victims of the holocaust, the problems all stem from the western powers taking Palestinian land, and giving it to the Jews. More correctly, it could be said that they did not do enough to stop the Jews taking the land. If they wanted the Jews to return to their homeland, they could have given them New York, as there were more Jews there in the 1940's than in Palestine. |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: katlaughing Date: 13 Oct 00 - 04:00 PM JeffM, I think you are right. I heard some interesting comments on NPR this morning. Seems this is the first time in probably 50 years that so many powers, throughout the world, have banded together to work for a peaceful outcome on a problem like this. The person who was making this report was really impressed with the diplomacy and general agreement, among all of those powers, that this critical issue must be resolved quickly and peacefully. Praise, I will remember your sons in my meditations on this. My neice and her husband are in Italy; he is an important part of Air Force ground support. Lena, if you go to www.drudgereport.com you can find news reports from UPI, Reuters, AP, and a few others. You should be able to find some places in the middle East which are online and would have local news, too. If I come across any I will post them for you. May Peace Prevail, kat
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: Amergin Date: 13 Oct 00 - 04:12 PM KimC, you said I know that a lot of Palestinians have managed to leave there but not everyone has the ability to go to another country. I say that it's not a simple matter of Palestinians being able to leave.....It is their home, why should they have to leave? If the Chinese landed and took over our country, would you just pack up and go? Or would you stay in hopes that one day they will go? To me I find this whole situation ironic.....The Israelis are practicing the same sort of persecution on the Palestinians that was pushed unto them for millenia....I wonder if somewhere deep down inside they think that since that they're the ones in power now, they can exact a sort of vengeance by proxy upon a minority who's crime is to follow a different route to God.... Amergin |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: Clinton Hammond2 Date: 13 Oct 00 - 04:20 PM It's not that I'm not sympathetic to loss and the potential for loss, but...
Isn't it the military's job to kill, destroy and die so that civilains don't have to? I think we'd be better off as a planet if we left them alone and let them sort it out themselves... They'd either kill each other off, of come to an agreement and either way the problem would be solved... Not that I wouldn't feel differently if I was involved, but I'm not so I don't... Peace Out Folks! {~` |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: kendall Date: 13 Oct 00 - 04:25 PM If you believe the old testement, it was the Palistinians who took over the "promised land" when the Jews were scattered. |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: GUEST,Irwin Goldenberg Date: 13 Oct 00 - 04:45 PM Dear Kendall, You wrote: "If you believe the old testement, it was the Palistinians who took over the "promised land" when the Jews were scattered." I'm afraid that your knowledge of the Biblical and post-Biblical history is seriously flawed. 1) The Jews were "scattered" in the year 70 C.E. (A.D.). The narrative of the Hebrew Bible (what Christians call the "Old Testament") ended several centuries before that. 2) The Palestinians are Arabs. The Arabs first arrived in Palestine in the 7th Century. Sincerely, Irwin Goldenberg
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: Jed at Work Date: 13 Oct 00 - 04:45 PM Yes I did notice, kendall, and I agree. Also, the Old Testament also implies the Jews took it over previously, if I am not mistaken. I hope and pray for peace there, but I fear we will be in for very serious problems, before it is resolved. I hope and pray also that as nations, we support justice over all other considerations. This problem area will take time and serious effort to bring to peace. |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: wildlone Date: 13 Oct 00 - 06:12 PM There seem to be many parallels to the situation in Eire, In that an invading force takes your homeland And you end up without anything. I know that I am simplifying the situation but terrorism gets You noticed, if the world media keeps on showing the stone throwing On one side and the machine guns on the other it is good for the "cause" I wonder what would have been said if the UK army had attacked The Falls road with gunships after the Hyde Park or Tower bombing How many benefit events are being held in the USA to help the oppressed? In Palestine I know that this post will generate a lot of flack but I feel I need to say it dave
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: MarkS Date: 13 Oct 00 - 06:22 PM Does anybody else remember the Palestinian troubles really started with the Black September movement, when the Palestinians got thrown out of Jordan? Why don't we get after the Jordanians to let the Palestinians come back home. MarkS |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: GUEST,Irwin Goldenberg Date: 13 Oct 00 - 06:36 PM Dear MarkS, Ethnically and historically, the Jordanians and the Palestinians are the same people. The areas now considered to be Palestine are the West Bank and Gaza. Prior to the Six-Day War in 1967, the West Bank was part of Jordan and Gaza was part of Egypt. From 1948 until 1967, those Arab countries could have given those areas to the Palestinians, no questions asked. However, the Arab countries had no interest or desire to do so. Sincerely, Irwin Goldenberg P.S. As to the argument that the area belongs to the Palestinians because they were displaced by the Jews, why don't you apply that argument to the United States and give it back to the Indians. Your white, European ancestors stole the country from them. Leave my ancestors out of it though, they were busy being murdered by the Czar's pogroms. |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: GUEST,mousethief (at the library) Date: 13 Oct 00 - 06:40 PM The palestinians are Arab inasmuch as they speak Arabic. But their genealogy is not that simple. Most of the people who are palestinians are descended from people who were there at least at the time of the crusades (say the 12th century) and probably earlier. Back when Palestine was part of the Roman empire (I can't remember when it fell to the Arabs, maybe the 7th century?) it was a diverse ethnic community speaking primarily Syriac, a descendent of the Aramaic that Jesus et al. spoke in the 1st century much as Italian is a descendent of Latin. Many of the so-called "Samarians" back in the 1st century (AD or CE) were descendents of the Northern Kingdom ("Israel") who were not taken into Babylonian captivity, and who held to the Five Books of Moses because the prophets in Babylon weren't part of THEIR experience of God. Many of these same people became Christians over the course of the next several hundred years. Not all of the inhabitants of Palestine at the time of the Muslim takeover converted to Islam; and many Christians moved to the area during the middle ages. As a result, there is a small but not insignificant minority of Palestinian Arabs who are Christians (primarily Roman Catholics and Eastern Orthodox), who can trace at least part of their ancestry right back to the time of Christ, right there in Palestine. And for that matter probably the lion's share of the Muslim Palestinians can trace their ancestry back just as far. So it's far too simple and quite erroneous to say that the Palestinians "stole" the land from the Jews. But it's quite obvious how the Jews have treated the Palestinians from the time they were granted their autonomy from the British in 1940. While "genocide" is too strong a word, "harassment" is far too weak. The reality lies somewhere in the middle. The so-called Jewish settlements were not made in unoccupied, open land. Many if not most were made by driving out the people who had lived there for over a thousand years, destroying their livelihood by chopping down their olive trees, and forcing them to move somewhere else. It's uncomfortably an awful lot like what was done in this nation to the Cherokee, Crow et al. It really sickens me how everybody keeps saying, "if only those nasty Palestinians would just stop throwing rocks, then we could go back to peace again." How many Palestinians have died since this current uprising began? How many Jewish Israelis? Now who is the oppressor and who the oppressed? I will continue to pray for the peace of Jerusalem, as we are commanded to. (Psalm 122:6). May Jews, Christians, and Muslims somehow learn to live together in peace.
Alex |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: wildlone Date: 13 Oct 00 - 06:45 PM here are a few links to news sites "palestinian times" .
Israel Wire . |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 13 Oct 00 - 07:43 PM "The politics of the last atrocity" - that's what we see here.
You have a series of terrible things done to each other by two sets of opponents, and each atrocity leads on to its retaliation, and each sides sets aside the atrocity they are guilty of,and concentrates on the one committed against them.
A terrified child killed in the arms of his father as they cower for shelter in a street raked with bullets by a sniper in a fortified guard-post.("Crossfire" they tried to say.) A rabbi beaten to death as he tries to stop a crowd tearing down a shrine. Kids with slingshots shot dead by soldiers in body armour. Captured soldiers lynched. Gunships firing rockets at the centre of a town. Burnings and killings, the kinds of things that have abeen seen in pogroms - but carried out by Jews.
Take any of these on their own, they are monstrous and incomprehensible. Take them in context, and they are still monstrous, but only too easy to understand. But it seems that people bound up in the struggle cannot help but see them in isolation from each other, and to only really see the ones that justify the actions of "their" side.
Ireland or "the Holy Land", or any one of scores of other conflicts. We always construct a narrative that starts where we want, and ends where we want, and leaves out the bits we don't like to think about.
For example: "Does anybody else remember the Palestinian troubles really started with the Black September movement, when the Palestinians got thrown out of Jordan". But then they were only there because they'd been ethnically cleansed from their homes by the incomers. Who were only there because of what had been dione to them by the anti-semites of Europe.
And you can go back to the Crusadrs. Or the Romans. Or Joshua and his divinely ordained campaign of genocide.
It's true that what has been done to the Palestinians is no worse than what was done to the Native Americans. Not much better either. And you can't undo the crimes of history. If you try to you just set off a new cycle of crimes.
But it is possible to acknowledge that crimes have been done, and until that happens moving on is impossible. The crime that has been done to the Palestinians over the past three generation or so has it's roots in the anti-semitism in Europe, culminating in Nazi Germany. Both peoples in "the Holy Land" are in a real sense both victims of Hitlerism, and of the centurues of hate and persecution of the Jews in Euroope that led up to that. And the latest phase of anti-semitism is directed especially against Arabs. |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: Sorcha Date: 13 Oct 00 - 09:44 PM Thank you, McGrath, for one of the most eloquent posts I have seen here in a long time. Both sides are wrong, yet both sides are equally right. If any one had all the answers to all the religous/ethinic/nationalistic problems on the planet, it would indeed be a true miracle. I will hold all those in danger in the light, no matter what their religon/ethnic background, etc. Means, I guess, Pray for the People and the Planet. |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: Oversoul Date: 13 Oct 00 - 09:48 PM Putting trigger locks on rocks might help. Also background checks at "rock shows" will help. |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: GUEST,Irwin Goldenberg Date: 13 Oct 00 - 10:09 PM Dear Davecoje, The situation in the Middle East is tragic. The enemies of peace are winning, the human race is losing. Your snide comment is in extremely poor taste. Sincerely, Irwin Goldenberg |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: mg Date: 13 Oct 00 - 10:21 PM here is a source of information...connected with McGill University. http://www.arts.mcgill.ca/MEPP/PRRN/prfront.html There is a site that is from children of a couple of the camps. They would like to hear from other children from around the world. One theme that keeps repeating is the world has forgotten them. I do not condone the violence and would act forcefully to stop it. At the same time I think I must acknowledge that these people have been done a terrible wrong and the world owes them for their suffering. Such things as more immigration, educational opportunities, teams to help with things like sanitation...I hope to go there myself in a couple of years for a while...There is a Palestine, whether it exists only in their hearts and memories and now in cyberspace. One by one we can acknowledge them while at the same time condeming the violence and terrorism. mg |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: Oversoul Date: 13 Oct 00 - 10:23 PM Pardon me Mr. Goldberg, but the whole freaking mess is in poor taste, and something that the rational part of the world finds boring. I am sick of this struggle, I am tired of this conflict. Can someone see we are in the 21st century? Get serious. |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: GUEST Date: 13 Oct 00 - 10:30 PM ONLY A SICK BASTARD FINDS HUMOR IN THE SUFFERING OF OTHER HUMAN BEINGS. DAVECOJE IS A SICK BASTARD! |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: Troll Date: 13 Oct 00 - 10:51 PM And GUEST is a gutless wonder. If you intend to flame, have the guts to leave a name. No, I don't agree with DAVECOJE. But if he has a problem with my opinion of him, my e-mail is on file and he can PM me if he likes. As regards the question at hand, any solution that does not deal with the problem of the Temple Mount is doomed to failure and THAT problem is well nigh insurmountable. Perhaps the U.N. should that over, declare Jerusalem an international city under U.N. governance and then divide the rest of the country. troll |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: Oversoul Date: 13 Oct 00 - 10:54 PM PM me if you have a problem GUEST. I have my arguement. Put down your rock, and write to me. |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: Sorcha Date: 13 Oct 00 - 10:55 PM Thanks troll. Saved me the trouble. The Temple Mount should in an ideal world, be accessible to any who want to go there............and hasn't UN control been done before? I can't remember where.........(not Berlin, maybe at the Hague/World Court?) |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: Haruo Date: 13 Oct 00 - 11:39 PM Thanks, Alex and McGrath (and most of the rest of you, but especially those two, for reminding us of the complexity of the real world, and the need to step back both to gain perspective and to examine our own motives and presuppositions.) Liland |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: Lepus Rex Date: 13 Oct 00 - 11:56 PM Ah, cool... Everything I was going to say has been said, and more politely and eloquently than I would have done it. So here I am, shutting up for a change. ;) ---Lepus Rex |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: GUEST,Rashi Date: 13 Oct 00 - 11:58 PM I agree 100% with Mr. Goldenberg's points. They are historically accurate. Back in the 1970's I disagreed with the whole concept of the JDL (Jewish Defense League), but in light of what has been transpiring in Israel for the last several years leading up to the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin, and everything being orchestrated by the PLO, Hamass, Iran and Syria, I think Meir Kahane had the right idea as far as dealing with those unhappy Arabs and Palestinians. "You can leave with compensation or you can leave without out, but either way you're leaving." The land of Israel belongs to, and was mandated to the Jewish people. The Arabs are guests. |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: Lepus Rex Date: 14 Oct 00 - 12:03 AM Uh, Rabin was killed by a JEW, you stupid twat. OK, now I'm REALLY out. ;) ---Lepus Rex |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: Sorcha Date: 14 Oct 00 - 12:13 AM Rashi, who mandated what? Moses and Joshua? Richard the Lion Heart? The British with the Balfour Declaration? This is not a simplistic issue, and I feel that Mr. Goldberg knows that too. Pray tell, just WHY should someone leave where "home" is just because some other ethnic group says he "has" to? Compensation be damned.
I am afraid I would be mightily upset if the Lakota and Northern Cheyenne told me I did not own my house anymore, just find someplace else............like where? Not that the Lakota and Northern Cheyenne don't have a legal/moral/ethical "right" to say that, they do. Just where am I supposed to go? To the countries my ancestors 3 generations removed came from?
I am quite sure that Ireland, England and the Netherlands would give me a land grant because my ancestors chose to leave those places.............(sarcasm, here, folks.) Let's face it: In our world, Might Makes Right. Doesn't make it Right, but it is sad but true. |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: GUEST,Thomas L. Friedman Date: 14 Oct 00 - 09:23 AM Maybe the most revealing feature of this latest explosion in Israeli- Palestinian violence is the fact that this war has no name. The "intifada," the Palestinian uprising of the late 1980's, got its name almost immediately. Intifada loosely means "shaking off," and Palestinians were said to be trying to shake off the Israeli occupation. The name made so much sense that even Israelis used it. But the violence of the last two weeks still has no name. And that is not an accident. It's because even the participants can't explain what it's about, or, deep down, they're embarrassed to do so. Here's why: The roots of this latest violent outburst can be traced directly back to President Clinton's press conference after the breakdown of the Camp David summit. At that time, Mr. Clinton pointedly, deliberately — and rightly — stated that Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak had offered unprecedented compromises at the summit — more than 90 percent of the West Bank for a Palestinian state, a partial resolution of the Palestinian refugee problem and Palestinian sovereignty over the Muslim and Christian quarters of the Old City of Jerusalem — and that Yasir Arafat had not responded in kind, or at all. Palestinians were shocked by Mr. Clinton's assessment. For the first time in a long time, Mr. Arafat no longer had the moral high ground. He, and the Arab leaders, had grown so comfortable with Bibi Netanyahu as prime minister of Israel — a man the world always blamed for any peace breakdown — that they were stunned and unprepared for the seriousness of Mr. Barak's offer and the bluntness of Mr. Clinton's assessment. Other world leaders told Mr. Arafat the same thing: Barak deserves a serious counteroffer. Mr. Arafat had a dilemma: make some compromises, build on Mr. Barak's opening bid and try to get it closer to 100 percent — and regain the moral high ground that way — or provoke the Israelis into brutalizing Palestinians again, and regain the moral high ground that way. Mr. Arafat chose the latter. So instead of responding to Mr. Barak's peacemaking overture, he and his boys responded to Ariel Sharon's peace- destroying provocation. In short, the Palestinians could not deal with Barak, so they had to turn him into Sharon. And they did. Of course, the Palestinians couldn't explain it in those terms, so instead they unfurled all the old complaints about the brutality of the continued Israeli occupation and settlement- building. Frankly, the Israeli checkpoints and continued settlement- building are oppressive. But what the Palestinians and Arabs refuse to acknowledge is that today's Israeli prime minister was offering them a dignified exit. It was far from perfect for Palestinians, but it was a proposal that, with the right approach, could have been built upon and widened. Imagine if when Mr. Sharon visited the Temple Mount, Mr. Arafat had ordered his people to welcome him with open arms and say, "When this area is under Palestinian sovereignty, every Jew will be welcome, even you, Mr. Sharon." Imagine the impact that would have had on Israelis. But that would have been an act of statesmanship and real peaceful intentions, and Mr. Arafat, it's now clear, possesses neither. He prefers to play the victim rather than the statesman. This explosion of violence would be totally understandable if the Palestinians had no alternative. But that was not the case. What's new here is not the violence, but the context. It came in the context of a serious Israeli peace overture, which Mr. Arafat has chosen to spurn. That's why this is Arafat's war. That's its real name. If you want to know how confused the Palestinians are, consider this quotation from their senior negotiator, Hasan Asfour: "There can be no [resumption of] peace talks without an international investigation [into the latest violence]. Our people did not die for nothing." I see. These Palestinians died so there can be an international investigation into why they were killed. Sad. What a totally messed up set of priorities. "Basically," said Stephen P. Cohen, a Middle East expert at the Israel Policy Forum, "the Arabs and Palestinians have spent so many years, and used up so much energy, from 1967 to 2000, just getting to the point where they would make peace with Israel if they got 100 percent of what they wanted, that they have no energy now to fight the real battle, which is getting their people to accept 90 percent. The danger — if we don't, despite everything, still find a way to erect a peace — is that the only energy left will be with those who want to undermine everything." With the gleeful, savage mob murder of Israeli soldiers in Ramallah, on top of a week of Israeli-Palestinian killings and now a suicide attack on a U.S. ship in Yemen, the whole region is coming unglued. What's scary is that no one knows what to do next. Moderates cannot continue to argue that if Israel went far enough, it would have a Palestinian partner. But the hard-liners, now saying, "I told you so — the iron fist is the only way to deal with the Palestinians," are peddling a fantasy as well. The iron fist is not a sustainable solution for a state of six million Jews living in a sea of one billion angry Muslims. So what do you do when there is no partner for peace and there is no alternative to peace? Mourn the dead. Mourn the dead and pray that after this explosion of hatred is over, the parties will find a way to live apart. Otherwise the future is just endless killing and dying, killing and dying, killing and dying, killing and dying, killing and dying, killing and dying. . . .
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: John Hindsill Date: 14 Oct 00 - 10:24 AM What an insightful posting by Mr. Friedman of the so-called peace process and the intransigence of the Arafat group. Is he the author/columnist of current events?
I believe that the major reason, aside from historical/Biblical rationale, that Israel insists on controlling the Temple Mount is that from 1948 until 1967 Jewish folk had no access to it. At that time it was under Jordanian/Arab control. Israel would not accept that again, and we know how trustworthy UN control can be. John
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: Gern Date: 14 Oct 00 - 10:36 AM Gee, I wish Mudcat could address serious matters with some consistant maturity and consideration. While most do, the nastiest ones seem to dominate. Parties in the Middle East need to disengage, and so do forum flamers. On the other hand, there is plenty of substance in the postings here, and I would like to respond. Mr. Friedman is a respected voice in these matters: did he really post this message? It is a verbatim copy of his Oct. 14th syndicated column. This column is embarassingly titled "Arafat's War," as if Arafat has control of this situation and can disburse angry demonstrators at will. The author knows better, having covered the Middle East for decades. But as an enthusiastic supporter of our continuing war against Iraq, Friedman's commitment to peace and justice is now suspect. Barak has far more control over his security forces than Arafat has over riled individuals, and it is Barak's troops that have been internationally condemned for aggression and overreaction. Mr. Goldenberg makes some reasonable points here (including urgent pleas for good taste, but has no right dceclaring that Palestinians and Jordanians are historically and ethnically identical. They certainly do not see themselves that way! Some biblical references in this discussion are misleading, such as "Arabs moving in after the Hebrews were scattered." The term 'Philistines' (whose meaning has changed over the years) is an Anglicized version of Palestinian, and refers to a portion of the essentially indigenous peoples in the region. They and Hebrews lived together in peace for most of this region's multi-millenial history. Inter-communal violence is largely a recent development, correctly identified by someone here as resulting from big-power interference. Sadly, "peace processes" often unleash spasms of violence before the participants remember what the came to the negotiations to accomplish. For all involved, pray that this is the wake-up call needed to make the tough concessions on both sides that allow peace. |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: wysiwyg Date: 14 Oct 00 - 11:02 AM This is a subject about which I used to know quite a lot. The best reference work I ever saw, and I was looking, is a book called ARAB AND JEW. It was so good I bought extra copies. If there is anyone who wants to know what the hearts of the people caught in this feel like, in their own words and with a view toward the reader doing their own thinking, PM me and I will send you a copy. It will make you think, and should make you very uncomfortable, for the hurts under these conflicts are so deep that a human respoonse is to look deep at yourself for your own deep hurts before presuming to have an opinion. The good news is-- THERE IS STILL NO SUBSTITUTE FOR REALLY KNOWING ANOTHER HUMAN BEING. TRUTH AND LOVE ARE NEVER FAR APART. LOVE IS THE MOST POWERFUL WEAPON TO HAND, AND IT IS AT HAND AT ALL TIMES. INCLUDING YOUR OWN HAND. YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FIRST FOR YOUR OWN HAND. Anything else I might say I have said in the threads on the term [folk nazis] and frankly I am not feeling quite well enough to say it all again, and I don't think most of you would listen because if you had, when I said it then, this would be a different discussion. Maybe it is a different discussion. Maybe my tolerance is low today. It happens. I'm your MudSis, not a mudsaint. We say, "I'm just a sinner saved by grace." Today I am not even that sure, more just a singer saved by grapes. So I think this time I will just pray. I do know at least that much today. And kat, thanks. Me too. Oh, and davecoje, guests can't PM. (Unless they are members who just didn't post under their member name.) If you want to argue with guests, you have to attract them into joining first. There is an art to it. You have seen me in action with yourself. That's how it works. And I miss you. Write to me wouldja? ~Susan |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: GUEST,Sheila Date: 14 Oct 00 - 12:54 PM Thank you Mr. Goldenberg and Mr. Friedman, for your intelligent and knowledgeable reports. For anyone who wishes to see what is actually going on in Israel, check out www.arutz@israelnationalnews.com. Do not depend on the biased and sometimes slanted reportage in the local papers. |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: GUEST,Colwyn Dane Date: 14 Oct 00 - 01:04 PM G'day,
What's new in the world except the history you don't know? Tracking back to Desert Shield/Storm:
When Iraw invaded Kuwait many Palestinians living in Kuwait gave active support to Iraq.
I could argue that Desert Storm ended prematurely because if
Jerusalem should be, like Tangiers before, administered as an International Zone by,
A theory is flown and others will be launched so as to test the airworthiness of the original. Bcnu. |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: Peter T. Date: 14 Oct 00 - 03:34 PM I am sorry I was wrong. yours, Peter T. |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 14 Oct 00 - 04:01 PM I never thought I'd say this, but looking at the TV the last few days, I'm finding myself appreciating the moderation of the British in the Northern Ireland war.
For the last 30 years the British Army was up against crowds of stone-throwing young men in Northern Ireland. And the British Army are a pretty nasty bunch when they get going, and as for the British Governments in power most of that time... But, even with Bloody Sunday, there has been nothing to measure up to what has been happening these past few weeks in the way of killing of uppity civilians.
The lynching of the Israeli soldiers who got captured in the vicinity of a funeral of a youngman killed by the Israeli army - thjat was directly comparable to what happened to two soldiers in Belfast on one occasion. But there weren't any gunships firing rockets into the Falls Raid in instant reprisal.
And yet you get a decent man like Shimon Peres on the box the other day talking about how there's been a restrained response by the Israeli army with the violence coming from the other side. Stones and catapults against guns and rockets.
Maybe the truth is that neither set of politicians in "the Holy Land" have much control over what happens on the front line. It's pretty clear that Arafat hasn't got the power to stop kids loosing off their catapults at the soldiers, and maybe Baruch hasn't actually got the power to stop the soldiers shooting back with live ammunition.
Maybe somehow something fresh will come out of this.I dream of a Palestinian Gandhi, who can get his or her people to realise that non-violent resistance would be more effective than stone throwing, if carried through with the same degree of willingness to die before giving in that the stone throwers have demonstrated.
I dream of him or her emerging maybe from the group of people who haven't had a mention so far here, the Arabic Israelis, the ones who managed to stay in their homeland, at least nine of whom were shot by their fellow citizens in the Israeli army. And I am sure that if that were to happen, there would be some Jewish Israelis who would be willing to risk death beside them. |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: GUEST,Abn bin Husseini Date: 14 Oct 00 - 04:13 PM We would like to thank the people of Mudcat Cafe for their moral support. Despite the fact that your American government stands with the Israeli oppressors, we know that you, the people, are with us as we rise up. In time, we will be victorious and the Jews will be driven into the sea. The support of the people of Mudcat Cafe helps to give us strength. |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: Haruo Date: 14 Oct 00 - 05:10 PM From: Peter T. Date: 13-Oct-00 - 03:30 PM The silence is probably due to an implicit, and I think pretty sensible, assumption that discussion of this topic in this forum will cause grief. There is enough real grief to go around already. yours, Peter T. Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: Peter T. Date: 14-Oct-00 - 03:34 PM I am sorry I was wrong. yours, Peter T. I am being a little facetious about a very unfunny topic here, but Peter, are you implying that there is not enough real grief to go around already? Also, did you mean perhaps to punctuate after "sorry"? Liland |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: Gern Date: 14 Oct 00 - 05:16 PM Can we at least agree to stop sending falsely signed, fabricated messages? Can we at least show respect for all parties in this dispute while still advocating our points? Do we at least have the confidence in our point of view to express it honesly and without racist allusions or derogatory references? The easily aroused bitterness and hatred here destroys all hope of intelligent discussion, and drives away thoughtful participants. Even worse, it stirs up the same ugly emotions so rampant in the Middle East today. Can't we do better than this? |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: Peter T. Date: 14 Oct 00 - 05:21 PM I am sorry that I was wrong in my assessment that people would sensibly stay away from this topic. The result has more than proved my point. yours, Peter |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: Bill D Date: 14 Oct 00 - 05:57 PM .....what comes to my mind is part of "The Merry Minuet"
"The whole world is festering
Italians hate Yugoslavs ...if everyone keeps saying "I am right, they are wrong", it is hopeless...the disputed area is revered and held sacred by BOTH sides...if they cannot have a state which encompasses both sides and allows them to walk, work and worship side-by-side, then they are doomed to fight and hate. It is sad...it is unfathomably sad...but it seems to be, to quote Nietzsche, "Human...all too human"
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: rabbitrunning Date: 15 Oct 00 - 09:18 AM It's rhetoric like "the Jews will be driven into the sea" which prevents me from having complete sympathy for the Palestinians. I agree that the Israeli's are reacting badly, but I honestly believe that Barak's offer at the last peace conference was amazing, considering how badly Arafat has done when it comes to making peaceful co-existence a cultural possibility among the Palestinians. Publishing schoolbooks that don't even acknowledge the existence of Israel and distributing them to children who are going to grow up having to deal with their neighbors is irresponsible at the very least. This round of violence didn't start with Sharon. Yes, he visited the Temple Mount area. That's where the Wailing Wall is. Yes, he brought soldiers. He's heartily hated among Palestinians with cause and he'd be an idiot to go there without protection. But I've not seen a single report from anyone that says that those soldiers were anything but behaving themselves, or not going to leave the area along with Sharon after a speech. A temporary inconvenience at the worst. Hurt feelings from the speech. If the Palestinians had responded with words they'd have my sympathy. They responded with rocks. Lots of rocks being thrown at a bunch of young guys who have guns and a fifty year history of listening to Arab politicians gain points by saying "We will drive the Jews into the sea." How long do you think you can be the target of a lot of a rock throwing mob before you try to get them to back off with the means you have in hand? Particularly when your experience says that the leaders of the mob want to annihilate you and everyone you love? Israeli paranoia is grounded in Arab rhetoric and propaganda. And rhetoric is something that the Arafat can change. |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: Gary T Date: 15 Oct 00 - 10:22 AM When all is distilled down to the essence of what can be done to make the future better than the past has been, I see no sign that the Palestinians, from kids slinging rocks to leaders passing up reasonable deals, have the psychological capability of accepting peace. |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 15 Oct 00 - 11:19 AM Talk of "driving the Jews into the sea" (though that post by "Abu bin-Husseini" I'd say is pretty clearly a plant by someone who has no sympathy for the Palestinian case) -is a reflection of a history in which the last time the Europeans tried to occupy "the Holy Land" they were eventually, after hundred of years "driven into the sea".
For the Palestinians in exile, it's inevitable that they will cling to the history of the long and ultimately victorious struggle against the Crusaders as a token of hope. Last time it was the Christians, this time it's the Jews - same difference. How could they possibly be expected to see it differently, at a gut level?
Gary T's post implies that the problem is that the Paklestinians are different from everybody else, with hang-ups that mean they don't "have the psychological capability of accepting peace". The trouble is they aren't different from everybody else, while history has placed them in a situation which very few of us could cope with without falling into the trap of hatred and self-destructive rage and bitterness.
For the most part this thread has kept away from falling into that trap - easy enough for us sitting at our computers far from the front line, but even so there's a constant risk of tipping over into the sarcasm and sneering and even the anti-semitic (Arab directed version) stereotypes which dominate sommuch media coverage.
If we can keep it that way, I think there is a value in exchanging views about this stuff, rather than backing away because it is divisive. |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: rabbitrunning Date: 16 Oct 00 - 08:56 AM Sorry, McGrath. The first place I heard "We will drive the Jews into the sea" this round wasn't from an anonymous poster, it was from a Palestinian woman shouting outside of the Israeli embassy on the evening news. She was also saying that mosques were being burnt and that no Palestinian had used anything more powerful than rocks. I know a synagogue was destroyed, but while I haven't followed the news or internet carefully enough to deny the report of mosques, I should think that that sort of report would have been prominent in our newspapers. If you do know of a link to pictures of a mosque being damaged by the Israeli reaction please point me to it and I'll believe her. But I know that the Palestinians were shooting with more than slingshots (which can kill by the way) because I saw French film footage of them doing so. Two days before she was shouting. Lies and rhetoric don't help. (Neither does destroying the police headquarters because of a mob -- even if you do give them three hours warning so no one gets killed.) Ah, half the time I think this was all cooked up between Arafat and Sharon, trying to keep their political power bases. |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 16 Oct 00 - 09:26 AM I wasn't suggesting that the anonymous "Abu" originated the expression, but he or she was the one who brought it into the thread.
Yes, there've been some guns on the Palestinian side, but it's very clear that the mass of the weapons used by them have been stones and catpults. And the death count confirms that. Morever. since one in four of the Palestionian deaths have been children (ie under 16),that's a fairly clear indication that it's stonethrowers who are being targetted. (Though of course the little boy shot in his father's arms while they tried to hide from an army sniper was very clearly not throwing anything at anybody.)
It's a messy and horrible situation, and the sort in which ugly rumours spread. I hope that no mosques have been intentionally attacked, either in Israel itself or in the occupied territories, though I wouldn't share rabbitrunning's confidence that if they had it would have been prominently reported in the newspapers.
But the almost one-sided death toll is not in dispute. And the United Nations Security Council which has declared that Israel has been using excessive force includes some countries which are in general very sympathetic to Israel.
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: GUEST,Jack The Lad- Uneasy in Israel Date: 18 Oct 00 - 01:44 PM As one who lives in Israel, and wants to continue doing so- it is very difficult for me to either totally condemn or to justify most of the events which have occurred hereover the past two weeks. Sure- wrongs have been done - historically to both peoples. This does not justify lynching, castrating beating,skull smashing or rock throwing. Rock throwing by an angry mob, or by some sick individual on a highway, is just as lethal as bullets or shells. I know- I have been under it.The rock throwing mobs are mainly young people twelve to 30-that is why some children are getting hurt or killed. Soldiers are shooting mainly rubber bullets but they too can kill under certain circumstances.The rock which crushes a pregnant mum,or the bullet which kills a twelve year old kid, are equally lethal. There is no way in which Israel is going to cave in and the Israelis disperse to other countries. I am equally convinced that there will be a Palestinian state in the forseeable future. It is just a question of seeing sense on the way to it. Both sides have to be brave enough to make compromises and to coexist . I believe that Prime Minister Barak has made significant offers and given significant concessions to the Palestinians- it needs courage and above all honesty on Mr. Arafat's part to accept them, and to urge his people to return to coexistence and to build peace. Jews and Arabs need to put aside hatred and suspicion . I am happy to say that Jewish and Arab musicians both within Israel, and to a certain extent across the borders, cooperate and produce music and art together. There are several folk groups comprising both Jewish and Arab musicians. Halevai( Let it Be) that there will be more of them, and that the rest of the people will learn to live together as they do. Jack The Lad- in Israel.
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: StandingBear (inactive) Date: 18 Oct 00 - 02:06 PM WOW... so many great posts and then someone calls someone else a "stupid twat". IS IT ANY WONDER THAT THERE ARE EVENTS LIKE THAT MBO PERSON LEAVING AND OTHERS NEVER JOINING MUDCAT AND THE WHOLE WAR THING HAPPENING AT ALL? WHEN PEOPLE MAKE ACIDIC COMMENTS LIKE THAT, THEN WONDER WHY THERE ARE HURT FEELINGS... GEE WHIZ. I have my own personal convictions and opinions, but I am not going to venture them. If I did, and was somehow mistaken or I did not choose my words correctly, I might get called a "stupid twat". Which is not a wise thing to call a 300 pound Injun with issues already. So I will just shut my mouth, hoping that any folks with flamey intentions will perhaps join with me. Peace on you, 'Bear |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: GeorgeH Date: 18 Oct 00 - 02:43 PM Why, why, why do some Jews consider that the Holocaust justifies them perpetrating evil to others? Which is, sadly, the ONLY moral basis for their "majority position" over the Arabs in their midst (in Israel) and whose lands they occupy (elsewhere). It is disingenuity at its height to claim parity between bullets and rocks. It is the Israeli inability to make an "appropriate and measured response" to matters which is at the heart of the problems in the Middle East, and is the reason why the US, Israel and the UK (not always down to the individual citizens of those countries) are HATED throughout the Arab world. Nothing can justify "lynching, castrating beating,skull smashing"; nothing can justify so many aspects of the routine Israeli treatment of the Arabs, or various other atrocities Israel has supported or instigated . . However, I did have one heavily ironic laugh in this ghastly mess. When Clinton described the suicide bombers as "cowardly". Now there are many things you may call the person who is prepared to sacrifice their life for a "cause", but "coward" isn't one of them. Not even the president of the US of A has enough power to change the meaning of words . . whatever his citizens might think. And, Standing Bear, whatever your views - don't worry about anyone calling you names - that merely indicates their inability to engage in debate, and does NOTHING to counter whatever you might choose to say. G. |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: StandingBear (inactive) Date: 18 Oct 00 - 02:57 PM GoergeH, that may be so, but I do not discuss adult topics with children. They must learn that REAL grownups do not resort to name-calling. REAL grownups ignore bratty children. It may seem snotty, but think about it. Remember the phrase "you might as well be talking to the wall"? Well, it works. It's one of the reasons my people (the Sioux Nation) have been able to slowly begin balancing modern life with ancient culture: We patently ignore those who insist on total assimilation, and soldier on in what we hold to be right, not stooping to the level of someone who is so "right" that their opponent is not only wrong, but unworthy of respect. I respect each person's worth, but I will not allow 'respectful' to mean 'pushover'. Peace on you, 'Bear |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: GUEST Date: 18 Oct 00 - 03:04 PM What is evident as a result of this thread is who the anti-semites are on this Forum. Good to know for future reference. |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: Groucho Marxist (inactive) Date: 18 Oct 00 - 03:28 PM GeorgeH, I will not engage in any kind of argument with you over the right of Israel to exist; except to say that if your arguements were true, the same would apply, as someone already pointed out, to all of the European descendants in the Americas and Australia. You rhetorically ask: "Why, why, why do some Jews consider that the Holocaust justifies them perpetrating evil to others?" I am a child of Holocaust survivors and the grandson of Holocaust victims. Your rhetoric is highly offensive. I know of no Jews, NOT ONE, not in North America, and not in Israel, who thinks like that. You refer to routine lynching, castrating, skull smashings, etc. by the Israelis against the Arabs. The only lynchings that have occurred are of Israelis by Palestinians. Even the Palestinians have not accused the Israelis of the things that you attribute to them. The vast majority of Israelis want a just and lasting peace. Most accept the need for a Palestinian state. When the kind of lies that you tell are repeated, finding that peace becomes all the harder. Shalom/Salaam Lou Melamed |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: StandingBear (inactive) Date: 18 Oct 00 - 03:34 PM I think the whole topic can be summed up thusly, as can most socio-political-conflict topics: If the leaders in this struggle REALLY HONESTLY gave a shit about what their people want (peace), they would not be following their own selfish agendas. I know many Jews and Palestinian Arabs; I also know lots of blacks and whites, cowboys and Indians, Yankee fans and Met fans. If you want peace, take the peaceful route. No one gets peace by force. No one wins a fight. A fight in and of itself is a loss to both sides. If you both want peace, then just (pardon me here) SHUT THE **** UP and drop the subject. Peace on you, 'Bear
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: GUEST,Jack The Lad- who lives there Date: 18 Oct 00 - 05:32 PM I mentioned the lynchings castrations skull smashing etc as examples of atrocities performed gleefully by the Palestinian mob on Israelis- recorded live on film. I also do not deny the shooting of the 12 year old boy apparently by Israeli troops- also recorded live on film. I weep over both. I do not legitimise and as Lou Melamed states , nor do I know of any Jew who does legitimise, any vile behaviour of Jews by citing the Holocaust. Personally I don't give a damn whether the Palestinians are really just plain old Arabs who gravitated here from Mesopotamia or elsewhere- or whether the Israelis should have stayed in Europe America or North Africa. They are here, we are here and I live here,and try to change things by my opinion, by my vote, by my behaviour and by my keyboard.In spite of the lies and ignorance spread by so many people there is a way to peace- and we will find it. By the way- all being well and peaceful- our next Jacob's Ladder Folk Festival is on May 4th & 5th 2001- on the Sea of Galilee- well not actually ON it, though they do say........ Jack The Lad |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: bflat Date: 18 Oct 00 - 05:59 PM I wish and pray for peace. First, we are humans needing air and sustance. This is common to each of us regardless of our ethnicity. Why can't we be tollerent? Couldn't this a current great challenge of folk music? We contibuted mightily to the ending of war in southeast Asia with our songs. I'm not a songwriter or a voice. Can you be? Will you be? Aren't all people entitled to live without strife, such as this? Can music, as in the past, be a vehile towards peace? Can we organize across the world via this forum a response to peace in this region. What are your thoughts? bflat |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: Gary T Date: 18 Oct 00 - 08:50 PM An attempt at some possible clarifications: When Lepus Rex used the epithet "stupid twat", I really don't think he was being serious. It was followed by a smiley face, and was in response to a (perceived?) factual error (in other words he was not ridiculing someone's opinion, but pointing out an apparent goof). It could be considered tasteless and crude, out of place given the tenor of the discussion, or even childish, but I seriously doubt it was intended to be more than a friendly "gotcha".
When GeorgeH said this "Nothing can justify "lynching, castrating beating,skull smashing"; nothing can justify so many aspects of the routine Israeli treatment of the Arabs, or various other atrocities Israel has supported or instigated . . " I don't see that he was necessarily attributing the "lynching etc." to the Israelis. When I read it, I figured the part before the semicolon applied to the Palestinians, while the part after the semicolon obviously applies to the Israelis. If I'm reading it correctly, the point is that both groups have committed unjustifiable acts.
I've got to agree with StandingBear on this:"If the leaders in this struggle REALLY HONESTLY gave a shit about what their people want (peace), they would not be following their own selfish agendas." Now, a perspective (elaborating on my previous post, which was not a condemnation but rather an observation--from my perspective, of course): My understanding is that Israel is absolutely determined to maintain its existence where it is, and that there's no realistic hope that anyone will change that. It's also my understanding that Israel's policy has been, from its beginning, to retaliate for attacks on it in greater measure than the initial attacks themselves. In other words, it not "tit for tat", it's "TIT for tat". Furthermore, Israel is quite able to squash the Palestinians any time it cares to, due to its overwhelmingly superior military abilities. This brings the question to my mind, what do Palestinians hope to accomplish with their various outbursts (rock throwing, etc.)? Putting aside emotional motives, history, etc., and just looking at what can be tangibly gained in the present, I see the Palestinians repeatedly doing themselves more harm than good by many of their actions. Never mind whether Israel's various actions are justified, if you know that when you slap someone he'll break one of your arms or legs, why keep slapping him? Surely there's a more effective way for Palestinians to achieve some of their goals. |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: Gary T Date: 18 Oct 00 - 08:53 PM Whoops! I goofed and didn't close the bold type correctly. It was supposed to be "...it's TIT for tat..." with the rest in non-bold type. Sorry. |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: Hedy West (current membership) Date: 19 Oct 00 - 12:43 PM RE: From kendall, 13-Oct-00 "Has anyone noticed that the Palistinians throw rocks, and the Israelis respond with bullets? Or that this latest round of hatred started with Ariel Sharon visiting that site which the Palistinians hold sacred?" Kendall, propaganda is a freebie; "they'll" practically pay you for accepting it. But you lose space in your brain for better stuff. Hedy |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Oct 00 - 01:55 PM True enough stones can kill every bit as much as bullets. But the death toll shows that this time it's not the stones that are doing the vast mass of the killings.
If this was Northern Ireland, or South Africa, I doubt that many people here would be saying that the violence of the soldiers with the guns has been no worse than the violence of the boys with the stones, and has been a moderate and restrained response.
And that doesn't mean I'm saying that the stone-thriowing is the right thing for anyone to be doing (let alone the lynching of the two soldiers or the other killings by civilians on both sides which have taken place). Aside from everything else, in the context of the present upsiring throwing stones (or even firing rifles) against the Israeli army just doesn't make sense as a way of fighting. In fact it is suicidal - and it can only be seen, bizarrely enough, as a way of provoking the enemy into over-reacting, and killing the stone-throwers. And in that it has succeeded only too well.
As I suggested earlier, if the self-sacrifice involved could be channelled into a genuinely non-violent resistance by some Palestinian Gandhi, something good come out of this. Stranger things have happened.
The most positive and encouraging post here has been Jack-the-Lad's. My heart goes out to those who are managing to make music across the sectarian divide, and bring together the two communities who have so much in common in spite of everything. For one thing, they are both attacked by anti-semites of one sort or another. But they have far more important things in common than that.
Salaam and shalom is the same word. |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: GeorgeH Date: 19 Oct 00 - 02:32 PM Yes, Gary T, you read me about right. And, indeed, I did not and do not deny the right of Israel to exist. Actually, I would attribute a large part of the failure to establish peace in the Middle East to the the fact that the UK and US imposed partition on the Arabs without any attempt to compensate them for their loss, or guarantee their standing (where applicable) within the state of Israel. Not, of course, that the UK was on too good terms with Israel at that stage . . . But I'm sorry, I've heard, over and again, Jews justify the unjustifiable, in their compatriots behaviour, by reference to the Holocaust. FACT! (By contrast, there is a minority of Jews who see the Holocaust as a particular reason why their nation's inhumanity towards - and denial of the humanity of - the Arabs should be intolerable. That's a couragous position.) It seems to me that the vast majority of people, of all nations, count the human worth of their own nationals as being in some way greater than that of the remainder of humanity. They would rather a hundred of "the others" die than one of their "own". Carried to its extreme THAT valuation gives you the Holocaust; and the reason the Holocaust so stands out in the history of man's inhumanity to man is more to do with the mechanisms of destruction, and powers of control of any dissenting voices, available to the Nazis than to any unique genocidal intent. Most any nation with a couple of hundred years of history behind it has shown similar intent at some point. And, IMO, we seek to cast the Nazis as being somehow uniquely evil precisely to distance ourselves from that fact; to avoid having to acknowledge just how often race hatrid has been used to "justify" slaughter. Race hatrid is, without doubt, a major force on both sides of the Middle East conflict . . It's in no way the perrogotive of the Israelis. However they are the governing force, with immense military and financial power, and their government enshrines race hatred in exactly the way the former white South African government did. At the end of the day they, and only they, have the power to end the slaughter and start working towards peace and security for all the inhabitants of that blood-stained region. And an aside to Hedy West: you acuse Kendall of mouthing propaganda without issuing ANY contradiction of what he (she?) said - would you mind pointing out which part of Kendal's assertion you feel to be at variance with the facts? Or have you, yourself, become merely a conduit for another party's propaganda? G. |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: Groucho Marxist (inactive) Date: 19 Oct 00 - 02:54 PM GoergeH, I again repeat, your assertion that Jews use the Holocaust to justify abuse of others, is a lie; a truly offensive lie. I am involved with the Jewish community, and specifically the Holocaust survivor community, and have spent a lot of time in Israel. I have never met anyone, or heard any credible spokesperson, for either Israel or any Jewish organization, make such a claim. The kind of lies that you tell just serve to make it harder for people of good will to find peace. Lou Melamed |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 19 Oct 00 - 04:24 PM I think many people would say that the persecution of Jews in Europe, culminating in the Nazi attempt to wipe them out, meant that there was no alternative for them but to establish a Jewish state in Israel, and that the unfortunate and continuing consquences of that to the non-Jewish people who were living there already were something that were inevitable in the circumstances.
There is a difference between saying that, and saying that the Holocaust justified the way that the Palestinians have been treated. But it is a subtle difference, that is often lost in arguments.
What is clear however is that the fate of the Paelstinians is ultimately a consequence of the Holocaust.
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: StandingBear (inactive) Date: 19 Oct 00 - 04:30 PM Ping, pong. Ping... huzzah! What is this, tennis? People, let's stop going back and forth and back and forth. I hate to do this, but I must. What I am about to say is AWFULLY naive sounding and sappy and sickly-sweet, but hey, ain't that what love is all about? "WAR IS UNHEALTHY FOR CHILDREN AND OTHER LIVING THINGS." "ALL WE ARE SAYING IS GIVE PEACE A CHANCE." "CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG?" "HOW MANY TIMES MUST THE CANNONBALLS FLY BEFORE THEY ARE FOREVER BANNED?" and, if I may be so bold, a quote from a favorite Book of mine: "...the lion will lie down with the lamb; the people will beat their swords into plowshares and study war no more." WAR IS WRONG! I CANNOT BELIEVE YOU ARE SO DIVIDED AND FIGHTING OVER WHO IS JUSTIFIED! TAKING ANOTHER PERSON'S LIFE IS A REPREHENSIBLE THING WHEN IT IS PROPAGATED BY AN IMPERFECT PERSON LIVING IN AN IMPERFECT WORLD! THERE IS NO GOOD REASON FOR KILLING! PEACE ON YOU (I insist!) 'Bear
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: mousethief Date: 19 Oct 00 - 04:46 PM We're the folksong army Every one of us cares We all hate poverty, war, and injustice Unlike the rest of you squares. --Tom Lehrer |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: GUEST,Irwin Goldenberg Date: 19 Oct 00 - 09:56 PM Dear Lou, It is a sad fact that there are legions of anti-Semites who hide their hatred beneath a veneer of anti-Zionism. They are easy to spot and they are present in this forum. They repeat their lies so often that many people believe them. You are right. No one in the Jewish community uses the Holocaust as a justification for any injustice on others. For the past 50 years that has been the big lie of the anti-Semites. For the 50 years beforehand it was the co-called Protocols of the Elders of Zion, and for 500 years before that it was the blood libel that we use the blood of Christian children to bake matzoh. It is sad that these hate-mongers are able to achieve such currency. Sincerely, Irwin Goldenberg |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: GUEST,mousethief (at the library) Date: 19 Oct 00 - 10:05 PM I will accept that Israel does not invoke the Holocaust for its shabby treatment of the Palestinians. I never thought they did, and have no reason not to believe those who say they don't. But this raises the further question: What DOES Israel use for an excuse for their hideous treatment of the Palestinians? Surely you won't tell me that the horrid abuses the Palestinians have suffered over the last 50+ years at the hands of the Israeli government have been all made up by the anti-semitic media? Then what's the excuse for the unconscionable way Israel has treated the Palestinians?
dying to know, |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: GUEST,John Gray/Australia Date: 19 Oct 00 - 10:29 PM There will only be lasting peace in the ME when one ingredient is cast out - religion. |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: GUEST,mousethief (at the library) Date: 19 Oct 00 - 10:39 PM Religion? What has religion to do with it? The fight is not over religion, but land. Even if they all were atheists, the fact is people have been pushed off their land by other people, and they're not terribly happy about it. That they are of different religions is an interesting side-note.
Alex |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 20 Oct 00 - 07:36 AM There are indeed people who use anti-zionists as a cover for anti-semitism. There are also anti-zionists who are in no way anti-semitic. There have always been Jews who are very critical of zionism.
For that matter there have been anti-semites who have supported zionism, even when the term anti-semite is used in a restricted sense, to just mean hatred of Jews.
And if anti-semitism is used in a fuller sense, it includes hatred of Arabs, which is now openly expressed by many of the same kind of people who have traditionally persecuted Jews.
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: GeorgeH Date: 20 Oct 00 - 02:10 PM I stand by my assertion, but am not going to go and look through my accounts of the Middle East situation to accumulate the evidence - sorry. And, Marxist of the Groucho persuasion, you and I could go on exchanging our perceptions on this ad nausium (I guess we already have). And if you see my position as anti-semitic then so be it; that, too, is a common tactic for distracting attention from the issues. So, to try to add something to the debate - I agree with those who say that Religion (per see) is not an issue here. In the same way as it's not, really, an issue in Ireland. But it's used by both sides . . the extreme "Religious Right" in Israel, and the muslim idea of "holy martyrdom". And, Standing Bear, I accept all you said in your last post, except where you categorised it as "naive sounding and sappy". So I'll not post anything else in this thread, beyond regreting the fact that my expression of the truth AS IT APPEARS TO ME no doubt causes genuine distress to some readers here; I'm sorry for your pain, but still believe what I said needs saying. G. |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: Little Neophyte Date: 20 Oct 00 - 02:27 PM George why would you stop posting just because you are assuming Standing Bear categorized something you said as "naive sounding and sappy". First of all that may not have been what he really meant and secondly that does not mean that is what anyone else feels who is reading your postings. It makes no sense for you to be concerned that everything you say may cause genuine distress to someone. Well for that matter, you might as well never say anything ever. Little Neo |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: mousethief Date: 20 Oct 00 - 02:28 PM George H., rather than stop posting, can you point us to any reliable sources that show Israelis invoking the Holocaust to excuse their treatment of Palestinians? One good quote is worth a thousand "did not/did too"s.
Alex |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: Groucho Marxist (inactive) Date: 20 Oct 00 - 03:27 PM Alex, GeorgeH didn't say that *Israelis* invoke the Holocaust to excuse their treatment of Palestinians. He said that *Jews* consider the Holocaust justifies them perpetrating evil to others. Be that as it may, he cannnot point to any *relaible sources* for such a statement because none exist. I will grant you that he may find something along those lines emanating from a Jewish or Israeli extremist group like Kach. But, you should be aware that Kach has been banned in Israel as a hate group. If you try to use a Kach statement as representative of Jews or Israelis, it's like saying the KKK is representative of Christians or Americans. Not credible except to propagandists whose aim is to destroy the legitimate aspirations for peace that are held by both sides of the divide. Lou Melamed |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 20 Oct 00 - 03:43 PM I wouldn't have thought it even controversial to say that the persecutions and ultimately the Holocaust have been seen by many people, Jewish and Gentile, as giving great moral strength to Jewish aspirations to set up and maintain an independent Jewish state in Palestine.
I cannot see how it is possible to deny that one result of this has been great suffering for the Arab population of Palestine.
Is that so different from the meaning of what George said? |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: Gary T Date: 20 Oct 00 - 08:39 PM One little detail, Bonnie--StandingBear called his own comments "naive sounding and sappy", not GeorgeH's comments. Why that would lead GeorgeH to cease posting escapes me. |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: Little Neophyte Date: 21 Oct 00 - 01:48 AM Oh Gary thanks, you are absolutely right. For some odd reason posting can sometimes be like playing a game of 'broken telephone'. I bet you that is how wars get started too. Bonnie |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: Gary T Date: 21 Oct 00 - 04:10 PM Happy to pick your nits, anytime, Bonnie (BG). Now I'm going to pick one of mine-- It occurs to me that GeorgeH decided to cease posting here not because StandingBear characterized his message as "naive sounding and sappy", but because of the message itself, which distills down to "war is awful". Perhaps GeorgeH, in accepting that sentiment, felt there was no point in continuing the discussion. And yes, I don't doubt that some wars have been started and/or exacerbated by miscommunication and misunderstanding. In fact, I'll bet it's a significant factor in the current Middle East travesty. |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 21 Oct 00 - 04:47 PM I'm inclined to think that the misinterpretation follows from the hostility rather than the other way round. Once you have decided that someone is an enemy, anything they do will be seen as a hostile act. A smile is seen as a sneer, a joke is seen as an insult.
But once you're in that situation, it makes it particularly difficult to make up once again. And that's true whether its disputes between individuals, or communities, or nations.
And I think that's why George decided to back out of this once the insults and misinterpetations were flying in his direction, because that kind of thing can easily get out of hand, and often has in discussion threads here about difficult and divisive issues. |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: Lepus Rex Date: 21 Oct 00 - 05:35 PM Eek, missed the whole 'stupid twat' contoversy while I was gone? OK... I'll have to defend myself... and go off topic:P Standing Bear, I find it odd that you would choose to single out MY response to some lowlife anonymous flaming pseudo-guest like 'Rashi.' (And the flamer IS a stupid twat, and I did mean it, though thanks to Gary for sticking up for me in my absence) Did you even READ 'Rashi's' entry? Or any other inflamatory entry besides mine? You rattled on for two or three paragraphs about what I said. And then you procede to insult me a couple times ('bratty,' 'child(ren)'), all the while bitching about how crude I am and how I'm apparently driving people away from the Mudcat. THEN you tell people to 'SHUT THE **** UP.' And *I'm* vulgar and offensive? I don't know you, I've never insulted you, and I'm not going to insult you now. You had the balls to sign your name, unlike guest 'Rashi.' But I deal harshly with phoney cookie-deleting bastards like Rashi, so get used to it. ---Lepus Rex |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: Lox Date: 22 Oct 00 - 12:24 PM "God told me to ..." A man forms a religious cult and murders his followers before committing suicide, because .... he believes that it was what God wanted. A psychopath murders a load of innocents because "God told me to" God, the Motherland, the Fatherland. But it's his will. But he told me to. Who says Israel is the Jewish promised land? God! (apparently) Who says that Jerusalem is the third city of Islam? God! Who inspired the Spanish inquisition? Who was used as an excuse for Western Europes ravaging of its colonies? Forward for the Emperor and the greater glory of ... etc Of course the reality is that God never said anything of the sort (unless he has started contradicting himself in his old age). The reality is one of false divides and differences. The reality is one of a fucked up human race that still hasn't figured its priorities out. The world suffers its worst environmental catastrophies in years. The south of England is flooded, Mozambique and Bangladesh suffer the same fate, and Orissa, six months after being flooded, suffers a drought. The people of Britain respond in typical form:- Give us back Salad Cream! - give us cheaper petrol so we can do more damage! In the name of God, wake up! |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: StandingBear (inactive) Date: 23 Oct 00 - 12:15 PM Hey Lepus_Rex, Yes, i told people to shut the **** up... I am tired of all the pathetic excuses for these wars. "Broken telephone" is right on. All this about God said this and God said that; baloney. The way I see it, God would not be advocating an attack by one group on another and then allowing it to DRAG on for decades. If "God" was calling for this war, don't you think the army that He wanted to have win would just annihilatie the others? That's the way the Bible puts it. "Twat" is a very offensive word to a lot of people. The people that come in here to "flame" NEED to be ignored, Rex. What possible good is it going to do you to call the guy a "stupid twat"? For crying out loud, just let the little baby go kick and scream on the floor and ignore him. And by the way, I NEVER said YOU were driving people away; I said comments like that were. I deal harshly with people who call names and even bother responding to guest flamers with rude language. At least I had the decency to use symblos so that what I meant was inferred, not published. War sucks, ignore the details. PEACE on you, 'Bear
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: MK Date: 23 Oct 00 - 12:45 PM Just finished reading a lengthy article on the Middle East situation at Time Magazine's website. I think it makes some good points. If you want to read the article, click here. |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: mousethief Date: 23 Oct 00 - 12:55 PM "It needs but one foe to breed a war, not two, and those who have no swords can still die upon them." --Tolkien.
Alex |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: Lepus Rex Date: 23 Oct 00 - 01:07 PM Standing Bear, ok, I'll ignore your insulting insinuations, and say this: Feel free to do things your way. Hope you have a blast. I, however, don't do things like that. Lots of people here do it your way, others my way, and others still other ways. I see you're new here, so maybe you haven't been exposed to much 'rude language' yet. But if all you plan on doing here is attacking people who use 'offensive' words, you might want to get another hobby, because what I said was pretty tame. Don't read anything by Spaw, for instance. Or maybe, DO, and chill the fuck out. ---Lepus Rex |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: Carlin Date: 23 Oct 00 - 01:11 PM McGrath, you are going to be be utterly stunned, but I agree with most of what you have to say. You might want to reconsider your position. ];p
The only thing I take issue with is the Gandhi thought. It would be major thread creep to go into it here....would you mind if I sent you a PM? |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: StandingBear (inactive) Date: 23 Oct 00 - 01:18 PM " " (ignoring you) Peace on you, 'Bear PS: At least 'Spaw has some intelligent things to say. "Chill the ---- out"? What, just because someone uses the F word or something it means that ALL people who do are equally smart? I hardly think so. 'Spaw does not offend me because 'Spaw can carry on an intelligent converstaion that sometimes even takes a turn that he does not like! WOW! he is able to have a conversation without getting his little feelings hurt every time he is disagreed with! What a concept; TRY IT sometime. Oh, by the way, I don't attack people who use rude language; I made a comment about what YOU said based on the fact that you can't even respect the opinion of someone who disagrees, (right or wrong) so you called them a stupid twat. My point is, if you want the respect that your opinion deserves, try giving some out as well.
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: Lepus Rex Date: 23 Oct 00 - 01:33 PM Ok, SB, this is over. I've endured enough of your insults, and now dislike you enough to ignore you. Have fun by yourself, as I imagine you often do. ---Lepus Rex |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: McGrath of Harlow Date: 23 Oct 00 - 03:52 PM I'd have thought "twit" would have been more appropriate. Funny the difference one letter makes. If you check back GUEST Rashi had just said "in light of what has been transpiring in Israel for the last several years leading up to the assassination of Yitzhak Rabin, and everything being orchestrated by the PLO". "Twit" would seem a not un-reasonable thing to say about someone who thought that the PLO assassinated Rabin. As for Carlin and Gandhi, send us a PM if you want. But I'd have thought that talking about non-violence on this thread might be quite a healthy thread-drift. (It seems to be getting a bit absurdly overheated the last few threrads...)Or maybe quite a new thread would be fitting.
There are a lot of distorted ideas about Gandhi, as being some other-worldly naive dreamer. Not true. Gandhi wasn't sentimental about non-violence - he once said (I paraphrase) that if he'd thought violence worked as a way of getting rid of evil, he reckoned he'd have gone for it - but it didn't, it just moved the evil around. And he also said that if the only alternative to non-resistance to evil was violent resistance, he'd choose that rather than giving in to it - but it wasn't. And he often stressed that any kind of resistance, non-violent or armed, involved the same willingness to accept the possibility of death. |
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Subject: RE: Middle East Problems From: Lepus Rex Date: 23 Oct 00 - 04:03 PM Yeah, you're probably right about twat/twit, McGrath. I honestly didn't have a problem with BS when he said it was inappropraite. Only had a problem with his insults and snide comments. Ah, well. ---Lepus Rex |
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