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Origin: The Red Flag of Labour

DigiTrad:
SONG OF THE ADA
THE RED FLAG


Related thread:
When Joe is dead, we'll raise a cheer... (7)


Haruo 14 Oct 00 - 02:24 AM
GUEST,Harry Whitcher 14 Oct 00 - 03:21 AM
Zebedee 14 Oct 00 - 06:59 AM
McGrath of Harlow 14 Oct 00 - 09:17 AM
wildlone 14 Oct 00 - 01:07 PM
Mark Clark 14 Oct 00 - 01:22 PM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Oct 00 - 01:21 PM
Keith A of Hertford 15 Oct 00 - 03:43 PM
Liz the Squeak 15 Oct 00 - 05:53 PM
GUEST,Karen Jonason 16 Oct 00 - 08:55 AM
GUEST,Pete Peterson 16 Oct 00 - 09:33 AM
GUEST,Fedele (not a guest - I'm in the library) 16 Oct 00 - 10:42 AM
dick greenhaus 16 Oct 00 - 10:59 PM
GUEST,Pete Peterson at work 17 Oct 00 - 09:01 AM
Wolfgang 18 Oct 00 - 04:01 AM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Oct 00 - 07:59 AM
The Walrus at work 18 Oct 00 - 08:21 AM
Mrs.Duck 18 Oct 00 - 08:35 AM
canoer 18 Oct 00 - 08:59 AM
dick greenhaus 18 Oct 00 - 02:32 PM
Penny S. 18 Oct 00 - 05:32 PM
Haruo 18 Oct 00 - 05:54 PM
oggie 18 Oct 00 - 06:09 PM
McGrath of Harlow 18 Oct 00 - 06:44 PM
GUEST,Philippa 18 Oct 00 - 06:45 PM
dick greenhaus 18 Oct 00 - 08:39 PM
Mark Clark 18 Oct 00 - 10:53 PM
Mark Clark 20 Oct 00 - 08:03 PM
Fedele 21 Oct 00 - 09:26 AM
Jim Dixon 11 Oct 08 - 12:23 PM
Joe_F 11 Apr 12 - 11:57 AM
Richard Bridge 11 Apr 12 - 12:42 PM
Joe Offer 11 Apr 12 - 03:13 PM
Joe_F 11 Apr 12 - 09:19 PM
McGrath of Harlow 12 Apr 12 - 06:53 PM
RTim 12 Apr 12 - 07:20 PM
GUEST 06 Dec 12 - 02:19 PM
Mark Ross 06 May 16 - 06:45 PM
GUEST,HiLo 06 May 16 - 08:07 PM
GUEST,Jon Bartlett 07 May 16 - 02:04 AM
Megan L 07 May 16 - 12:02 PM
Paul Burke 07 May 16 - 05:36 PM
GUEST,HiLo 08 May 16 - 03:38 AM
punkfolkrocker 08 May 16 - 09:23 AM
GUEST,HiLo 08 May 16 - 10:15 AM
punkfolkrocker 08 May 16 - 10:34 AM
Stilly River Sage 08 May 16 - 10:44 AM
GUEST,HiLo 08 May 16 - 10:47 AM
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Subject: The Red Flag of Labour
From: Haruo
Date: 14 Oct 00 - 02:24 AM

In the thread on the passing of Mr. Dewar I ran across a reference to "The Red Flag" as the Labour Party anthem. There is a song entitled THE RED FLAG in the Digitrad, but it is quoted from a Wobbly songbook and has some lyrics that I can hardly imagine a ruling party of a Major Western Democracy (well, okay, Limited Monarchy!) enshrining as their anthem. Or are they unrelated apart from the title? Or was the reference to a Labour Party anthem jocular? Or what?

Liland

Located over here in the Soviet of Washington
and the Curious Republic of Fremont.


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Subject: RE: The Red Flag of Labour
From: GUEST,Harry Whitcher
Date: 14 Oct 00 - 03:21 AM

The lyrics to The Red Flag are indeed "strong", to say the least. One needs to bear in mind the class society in the UK at the time the Labour party was forming, and it was this that gave rise to the amazing fervour and zeal within the song. We were discussing, only this week, the line that "we will not change its colour now", as it appears to most independent people that Labour, traditionally red, have moved into Conservative territory, traditionally blue. The concensus was that at the very least it should be called The Mauve Flag"


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Subject: RE: The Red Flag of Labour
From: Zebedee
Date: 14 Oct 00 - 06:59 AM

Liland,

You can find information about the song and its history here


    Jim Connell was born in Kilskyre in County Meath in 1852.
    As a teenager, he became involved in land agitation and joined the Irish Republican Brotherhood.

    At 18 he moved to Dublin, where he worked as a casual docker, but was blacklisted for his attempts to unionise the docks.

    Failing to find any other work, he left for London in 1875, where he spent most of the rest of his life.

    He worked at a variety of jobs. He was a staff journalist on Keir Hardie's newspaper "The Labour Leader" and was secretary of the Workingmen's Legal Aid Society during the last 20 years of his life.

    He wrote "The Red Flag" in 1889 on the train from Charing Cross to New Cross after attending a lecture on socialism at a meeting of the Social Democratic Federation. It was inspired by the London dock strike happening at that time, as well as activities of the Irish Land League, the Paris Commune, the Russian nihilists and Chicago anarchists.

    The song quickly became an anthem of the international labour movement. Although he wrote it to the tune of "The White Cockade", it has come more often to be sung to the tune of "Tannenbaum."

    It has echoed around the world, sung with fire and fervour, for over a century. Although a competition was held in 1925 to replace it as the Labour Party anthem in Britain and over 300 entries were received, it has not been displaced. Newly elected Labour MPs entered the House of Commons in 1945 singing it. The Rand Miners of South Africa went to the gallows singing it.

    Irish trade unionists and political activists proudly sang it in 1998 in Crossakiel.

    It has appeared in virtually every collection of international labour songs published and will live on in the future on world wide web and new multimedia productions.

    In "How I wrote The Red Flag" written in 1920, Jim Connell wrote:

    "Did I think that the song would live ? Yes, the last line shows I did: "This song shall be our parting hymn". I hesitated a considerable time over this last line.
    I asked myself whether I was not assuming too much. I reflected, however, that in writing the song I gave expression to not only my own best thoughts and feelings, but the best thoughts and feelings of every genuine socialist I knew . . . I decided that the last line should stand."

    When he addressed the crowd in Crossakiel, it was his last visit to Ireland.

    Jim Connell died in 1929 in London. At his funeral in Golders Green, "The Red Flag" was sung to both airs. It was his parting hymn.

    It has been that for many who came after and, as long as there continue to be those who seek truth and justice in the world, it will be for many yet to come.

    The song will live.


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Subject: RE: The Red Flag of Labour
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Oct 00 - 09:17 AM

Of course it's still the Labour Party anthem, in spite of everything. Some of the bastards on the platform look pretty embarrassed singing it, but it's still the one that gets the crowd singing. They missed it out this year's conference, I believe, with the excuse that it would have been an anticlimax after Nelson Mandela. Though I'm sure he'd have loved it, and known the words too.

It strikes me as very moderate in tone. Very non-violent.


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Subject: RE: The Red Flag of Labour
From: wildlone
Date: 14 Oct 00 - 01:07 PM

And there was me thinking that the "New" labour party song is Who's sorry now


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Subject: RE: The Red Flag of Labour
From: Mark Clark
Date: 14 Oct 00 - 01:22 PM

You may also be interested in SONG OF THE A.D.A., a parody of "The Red Flag."

There is another parody that begins:

The workers flag is deepest pink,
It's not as red as you might think,...

Unfortunately I don't know any more of it and didn't find it in the DT.

- Mark


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Subject: RE: The Red Flag of Labour
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Oct 00 - 01:21 PM

The interesting thing about the Red Flag is that the song has always been about this very thing - the efforts by people up on the platform and in the official cars to snuggle up to the comfortably-off people.


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Subject: RE: The Red Flag of Labour
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 15 Oct 00 - 03:43 PM

McGrath may not approve of the version that goes, "The working class can kiss my a--- , I've got the foreman's job at last." See you at Buntingford next month McGrath? Sing up Keith


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Subject: RE: The Red Flag of Labour
From: Liz the Squeak
Date: 15 Oct 00 - 05:53 PM

The red flag was first flown over Bordeaux, because they were so impressed with the fact that we had booted out the king. They went on to try the same, with a more sustained success rate..... but the red flag was their banner first. Nothing to do with Russia, Red communists or socialism.... Ask Tony Benn, he studied it. And he's the only one who still remembers all the words of the song.

LTS


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Subject: Lyr Add: The Purple Flag
From: GUEST,Karen Jonason
Date: 16 Oct 00 - 08:55 AM

My version of THE RED FLAG was sung on the World March of Women in Brussels 14th October (New York World March presenting petition to UN on 17th October). My version is called THE PURPLE FLAG:

THE PURPLE FLAG

The purple flag we recollect
Was carried by the suffragette.
Unfurled it was in Downing Street
Above the ranks of marching feet.
They raised the purple standard high.
"Votes for Women" they did cry.
For many a year they struggled on
Until the women's vote was won.

For sixty years the men did say:
"We shall not grant you equal pay.
To be a wife and mother fair,
There is no job that can compare."
We raised the purple standard high.
We went on strike. We questioned why;
And then the cause was won at last:
The Equal Pay Act it was passed.

But still there's many obstacles
For people without testicles.
Through a glass ceiling we can see
The men who rule society.
So raise the purple standard high.
Within its shade we'll live or die.
We'll not give up our valiant fight
Until we've gained true equal rights.

PS: Tony Benn isn't the only Labour Party person who knows all the words of the original. The Labour Party members in Strawberry Thieves Socialist Choir also do!


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Subject: RE: The Red Flag of Labour
From: GUEST,Pete Peterson
Date: 16 Oct 00 - 09:33 AM

There's a book called The Great Mutiny by Dugan IIRC covering the mutiny at the Nore and Spithead in 1797. According to this book, the mutineers, in order to let other ships (and the Admiralty on share) know that they were serious, hoisted a simple red flag, which at the time was the signal for "Ammunition is being loaded." The use of the red flag as a symbol of mutiny spread to other ships,and was adopted by other organizations, often without knowing its origin.
Sounds reasonable to me. . . Does anybody out there have a better story? (or can find a use of the red flag as a symbol of revolution prior to Spithead 1797?)


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Subject: RE: The Red Flag of Labour
From: GUEST,Fedele (not a guest - I'm in the library)
Date: 16 Oct 00 - 10:42 AM

Yes, there's another story, I read it in a magazine and it sounds realistic. Let's see if I can recall it.
During the French Revolution, I don't remember which phase - but it was the beginning - a law was promulgated, it said that when people saw the red flag flying it was a sign to tell everyone that martial law was in effect, and that the soldiers were allowed to shoot people to keep things in order.
Proletarians saw that red flag but they gave a damn. Soldiers led by old dear Marquise LaFayette [you might rate him an American hero 'cos he helped the American revolution, but he was quite a shit and he switched side ad double-dealt 16,978 times during the French Revolution, always serving the side that was most powerful at the moment] shot the people thus killing some of them.
The day after, proletarians walked through the streets of Paris waving red flags and carrying a banner that said "People's martial law against the tyrants' martial law".
I don't recall this story so well, but I'll check when I go back in my hometown and find that magazine. So the Red Flag was already in use around 1789, according this story. I only knew for sure that it was proposed as the French Republic flag in 1848.
By the way, when were the hammer and the sickle first crossed? I never saw them before the Russian Revolution, so I think the symbol was invented that time, also because before that time there were little links between factory workers and peasants.
See you on Friday when I get back home.


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Subject: RE: The Red Flag of Labour
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 16 Oct 00 - 10:59 PM

Leon Rosselson has a fine commentary on this (in DigiTrad) which has the fine lines:

And just to show we're still sincere
We sing The Red Flag once a year

It's called THE BATTLE HYMN OF THE NEW SOCIALIST PARTY.


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Subject: RE: The Red Flag of Labour
From: GUEST,Pete Peterson at work
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 09:01 AM

Fedele-- your story sounds as plausible as mine.To Americans lafayette is a hero (and he made very sure the legend would go into the history books by surviving into old age & making a Grand Tour of America some time around 1826) to Frenchmen he may not be. But didn't everybody change sides to survive in those years? I have always admired Talleyrand, who told Louis XVIII that treason was, in his opinion "a small problem with dates". I once suggsted to a friend in the process of changing sweeties that he use the same definition of infidelity. His wife didn't approve.


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Subject: RE: The Red Flag of Labour
From: Wolfgang
Date: 18 Oct 00 - 04:01 AM

Just a remark to the tune: it is know in Germany since at least 1790 that is before it was used to sing with 'O Tannenbaum' in the early 19th century.

Wolfgang


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Subject: RE: The Red Flag of Labour
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Oct 00 - 07:59 AM

And of course it's the tune of Maryland my Maryland. I believe that caused some confusion at times with American bands in England in the war he getting unexpected responses when they played it


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Subject: RE: The Red Flag of Labour
From: The Walrus at work
Date: 18 Oct 00 - 08:21 AM

I seem to recall reading somewhere that, in the early/mid 17th Century (ECW) period the colour associated with rebellion was GREEN.
"The Peoples' flag is deeped green...."
It doesn't have the same resonance somehow.

Regards

Walrus


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Subject: RE: The Red Flag of Labour
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 18 Oct 00 - 08:35 AM

Reference to the red flG IN fRANCE C.I789 exists in the words of the Marseillaise ' l'etandard sanglant est leve' and I was always given to understand that it was adopted by the Russians because of it's significance.


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Subject: RE: The Red Flag of Labour
From: canoer
Date: 18 Oct 00 - 08:59 AM

Well, not exactly "adopted by the Russians" since it was already an international symbol of the struggle in which they were participating. OK, nit picked. :-)

The hammer-and-sickle was conceived in l917, immediately after the workers took power. Legend is that Leon Trotsky himself suggested it. It refers to a very specific event. The Peasants' Councils national organization formally allied with the Workers' Councils national organization to form the new government, and this agreement of town and country guaranteed the success, for the moment, of the revolution. Thus, the workers' hammer, the peasants' sickle.


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Subject: RE: The Red Flag of Labour
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 18 Oct 00 - 02:32 PM

Wolfgang- The Tannenbaum tune isn't the one that Red Flag was originally sung to. I can't recall the original tune, but it was a traditional dance tune, and much livelier than the one that's currently used.


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Subject: RE: The Red Flag of Labour
From: Penny S.
Date: 18 Oct 00 - 05:32 PM

This brings back an embarrassing moment. I was trying to play some tunes from a children's religious chorus book, years out of practice, and needing to recognise a tune to get it right. I was in the school hall at lunch time, struggling away with these chords that hid the tune, and not having the slightest idea what it sounded like, just working out how to fit something like "Oh Praise the Lord, oh praise the Lord, oh praise the Lord for he is good" to it. And the Head master came up and asked me what on earth I was playing that for, told me that one of the dinner ladies was very offended and that I was never to play it again. My scheme to sing Oh Christmas Tree unfortunately never came off. I didn't have the guts!

Penny


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Subject: Well as far as O Tannenbaum goes
From: Haruo
Date: 18 Oct 00 - 05:54 PM

in addition to being the recent tune for the Red Flag and the ancient tune for O Tannenbaum and the inbetwixttime tune for Maryland, my Maryland, it's also the tune we sang the Boy Scout Hymn to when I was a kid, as well as the tune of a recent British Christmas (or actually Annunciation) carol, "A Messenger Named Gabriel".

But does anybody know the original tune of the Red Flag, which is alluded to both above and in the DT, but no MIDI given?

Liland


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Subject: RE: The Red Flag of Labour
From: oggie
Date: 18 Oct 00 - 06:09 PM

Original tune was 'The White Cockade' - Billy Bragg has recorded a version of it.

All the best

Steve

PS Leon Rosselson updates his version every year or two in order to keep abreast of Tony and friends. The frightening thing is that his original (which is still apt) was written circa 1960 about Harold Wilson and Hugh Gaitskell


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Subject: RE: The Red Flag of Labour
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Oct 00 - 06:44 PM

The oirigibnal tune was indeed The White Cockade, and that's agood tune. And the fell that wrote it was really pissed off that people insisrted on singing it to the other one.

But that's just not relevant.The song is about struggle, and the tune that's been associated with it in the struggle has been the Tannenbaum/Maryland tune, so that's the tune that belongs with it now. Songs and tunes have a life of their own, over and above the preferences of the people who write them. In this instance, vox populi, vox dei.


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Subject: RE: The Red Flag of Labour
From: GUEST,Philippa
Date: 18 Oct 00 - 06:45 PM

Mark- the lines I know, and this is long before Blair - are:

The peoples' flag is palest pink
It's not as red as most folks think
We don't want people all to know
What Socialists thought of long ago
Don't let the scarlet banner float
We need the middle classes' vote
Though Liberals scoff and Tories sneer
We sing the Red Flag once a year [at the Labour Party conference]


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Subject: RE: The Red Flag of Labour
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 18 Oct 00 - 08:39 PM

Phillipa- Good parodies don't die; they evolve. Check out the ADA song in DigiTrad (circa 1946) (ADA, or Americans for Democratic Action) was a liberal organization much despised by their left-leaning brethren (and sistern, I guess).


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Subject: RE: The Red Flag of Labour
From: Mark Clark
Date: 18 Oct 00 - 10:53 PM

Phillipa, Thanks for posting the rest of thos lyrics. I haven't heard them sun for a long time.

Dick, I linked to ADA song in the D.T. I think it says the ADA was an organization of the 50's but I think it's still active today. Couldn't tell what they're up to though.

Thanks,

      - Mark


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Subject: RE: The Red Flag of Labour
From: Mark Clark
Date: 20 Oct 00 - 08:03 PM

FWIW, I found the Americans for Democratic Action. It appears that they are still active.

      - Mark


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Subject: RE: The Red Flag of Labour
From: Fedele
Date: 21 Oct 00 - 09:26 AM

Found that magazine - it just confirms what I recalled.
I however suggest to try to know some more about this little piece of history. Let's go and search, also on the net, and report.


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Subject: RE: The Red Flag of Labour
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 11 Oct 08 - 12:23 PM

I looked up THE RED FLAG with Google Book Search and I found 2 copies of the lyrics:

Brissenden, Paul F. The I.W.W.; A Study of American Syndicalism. New York: Columbia University; [etc.], 1919, p 377.

United States. Bolshevik Propaganda. Hearings before a Subcommittee of the Committee on the Judiciary, United States Senate, Sixty-Fifth Congress, Third Session and Thereafter, Pursuant to S. Res. 439 and 469. February 11, 1919, to March 10, 1919. Washington: Government Printing Office, 1919, p 156.

Ignoring punctuation, the lyrics are identical to those in the DT except:

Verse 2, line 4: Chicago swells its surging song.


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE RED FLAG (Jim Connell)
From: Joe_F
Date: 11 Apr 12 - 11:57 AM

Wikipedia has a more complete version than the one in the DigiTrad:

THE RED FLAG
(Jim Connell)

    The people's flag is deepest red,
    It shrouded oft our martyred dead,
    And ere their limbs grew stiff and cold,
    Their hearts' blood dyed its every fold.

       Then raise the scarlet standard high. (chorus)
       Within its shade we live and die,
       Though cowards flinch and traitors sneer,
       We'll keep the red flag flying here.

    Look round, the Frenchman loves its blaze,
    The sturdy German chants its praise,
    In Moscow's vaults its hymns were sung
    Chicago swells the surging throng.

       (chorus)

    It waved above our infant might,
    When all ahead seemed dark as night;
    It witnessed many a deed and vow,
    We must not change its colour now.

       (chorus)

    It well recalls the triumphs past,
    It gives the hope of peace at last;
    The banner bright, the symbol plain,
    Of human right and human gain.

       (chorus)

    It suits today the weak and base,
    Whose minds are fixed on pelf and place
    To cringe before the rich man's frown,
    And haul the sacred emblem down.

       (chorus)

    With head uncovered swear we all
    To bear it onward till we fall;
    Come dungeons dark or gallows grim,
    This song shall be our parting hymn.

The author's name is Connell, not O'Connell; the correct date is 1889, not 1899.


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Subject: RE: The Red Flag of Labour
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 11 Apr 12 - 12:42 PM

Thank you


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Subject: RE: The Red Flag of Labour
From: Joe Offer
Date: 11 Apr 12 - 03:13 PM

I've noticed lately that a lot of lyrics are being posted without a title, and without the name of the songwriter. Sometimes, the title and songwriter name can be determined by reading the thread, and sometimes not. This may seem redundant, but it's nice to know for certain what the song was called by the source it came from.

When posting lyrics, please include the song title and songwriter name at the beginning of the lyrics, and source and background information at the end. At the very least, please tell us where you got the lyrics.

I added title and songwriter name to the post from Joe_F. I hope I did it right.

Thanks.

-Joe Offer, Mudcat Archivist-


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Subject: RE: The Red Flag of Labour
From: Joe_F
Date: 11 Apr 12 - 09:19 PM

Joe O: Thank you; I'll keep that in mind. The song is occasionally called "The Red Flag of Labour" as in the subject line, but plain "The Red Flag" is the title under which most people will look for it.


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Subject: RE: The Red Flag of Labour
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 06:53 PM

I've always heard it sung with the second line in the chorus as "Beneath it's shade we'll live or die". The second verse never really gets sung, though all the other verses do.

Incidentally I noticed a suggestion above that "l'étendard sanglant est levé" in the Marseilleise is an early reference to the red flag as a revolutionary emblem. But in fact the words are:

Contre nous de la tyrannie
L'étendard sanglant est levé


meaning "the bloody flag of tyranny is raised against us", referring to Prussian and Austrian invaders.


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Subject: RE: The Red Flag of Labour
From: RTim
Date: 12 Apr 12 - 07:20 PM

As an old Labour Party member - I found it very strange, when I moved to the US, to hear the
tune for The Red Flag to be sung to a Christmas Carol!!

Tim Radford


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Subject: RE: The Red Flag of Labour
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Dec 12 - 02:19 PM

When you hear this song of the Red Flag the tune you hear is a Christmas carol called Tannenbaun. I first learned it when I got my computer. When i reviewed it I also said that many football teams when they win a cup or the UEFA leage sing this song with their own words. It is good to play and sing all year round and if you are a piano teacher, get the folks to understand that this tune is not necessarily a Christmas carol. Like me you can split the keys, O Tannenbaum can be sung at Christmas and The Red Flag is sung at normal shows.


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Subject: RE: Origin: The Red Flag of Labour
From: Mark Ross
Date: 06 May 16 - 06:45 PM

The first time I attended an IWW (Industrial Workers of the World) General Assembly, I learned this version;

The working class can kiss my ass,
I've got the foremans' job at last.

Mark Ross


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Subject: RE: Origin: The Red Flag of Labour
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 06 May 16 - 08:07 PM

To see where the left has gone recently, see the toxic thread below in the bs section.


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Subject: RE: Origin: The Red Flag of Labour
From: GUEST,Jon Bartlett
Date: 07 May 16 - 02:04 AM

...Then raise the workers' bomb on high
Beneath its shroud we'll gladly die
Though all our critics do shout "Balls!:"
They'll be beneath it when it falls.

From where? I forget

Jon Bartlett


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Subject: RE: Origin: The Red Flag of Labour
From: Megan L
Date: 07 May 16 - 12:02 PM

punkfolkrocker I really must object to your using the word Twatt when talking about that pathetic laughable excuse for a human being. Twatt is a perfectly respectable and rather nice part of Orkney that played an important role in the second world war as an RAF base which is something the interloper(not a guest since they are usually welcome) would know nothing about since he seems devoid of any sense.

PS I believe there is also a Twatt in Shetland the name comes from the old norse for a small parcel of land pviet(Cant do the fancy characters)


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Subject: RE: Origin: The Red Flag of Labour
From: Paul Burke
Date: 07 May 16 - 05:36 PM

Oh, and our guest Richard was wrong. Idiot. And our guest "HiLo"? - suddenly they've all gone quiet about "Labour antisemitism"- as if all antisemitism was Labour, and only Labour was antisemitic- and as if any criticism of Israel was antisemitic- now that the election's over, and Lynton Crosby has been stood down until the next round. Classic ambush. Failed.

I wonder which side of the referendum LC will be lying for?


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Subject: RE: Origin: The Red Flag of Labour
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 08 May 16 - 03:38 AM

Paul, please read posts before commenting.i did not mention Labour nor did I suggest that all criticism of Israel is anti Semitic. However, the regressive left everywhere appears to regard the demonization of Israel as mere criticism.


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Subject: RE: Origin: The Red Flag of Labour
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 May 16 - 09:23 AM

"regressive left... hmmm... that newish term/insult has started cropping up a lot in the last few days...

.. almost as if the folks propagating it are orchestrated into singing from the same circulated song book...??? 😣


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Subject: RE: Origin: The Red Flag of Labour
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 08 May 16 - 10:15 AM

It is not a newish term nor is it an intended insult, it is a reference to those on the far left who are against free speech, the open exchange of opinions and ideas and who attempt to delegitimise all points of view but their own. There is much discussion of this in recent years. If you wish to inform yourself, simply type in regressive left on google or you tube. It is always good to do a wee bit of research.
I don't understand your second sentence at all. sorry.


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Subject: RE: Origin: The Red Flag of Labour
From: punkfolkrocker
Date: 08 May 16 - 10:34 AM

I already did 'look it up'...

My casual estimation is that some few may know what it originally meant and how / when it was intended to be used correctly..

But the term is becoming absorbed into less intelligent 'fashionable' common usage mainly through dissemination via right wing political blogs and email chain mail outs...

briefing, scripting, arming and deploying the eager faithful combative participants in the recent anti Corbyn Labour pre election smear campaign... ??? 🐑 🐑 🐑 😜


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Subject: RE: Origin: The Red Flag of Labour
From: Stilly River Sage
Date: 08 May 16 - 10:44 AM

Unpacking regressive left:

It is a reductive term; i.e., meant by one political group to distill a view of another political group (whether that "group" is a group or not) into a catch phrase to reduce the conversation to "gotcha" name-calling. Trying to change the argument by dismissing a valid view (in this case, that the government of Israel commits crimes but criticizing it brings up charges of antisemitism from those who whole-heartedly support the anti-Palestinian government in office).

Now, back to the original music or scholarly topic.


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Subject: RE: Origin: The Red Flag of Labour
From: GUEST,HiLo
Date: 08 May 16 - 10:47 AM

You are VERY misinformed Acme. Yes, back to the music.


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