Help: Should I post lyrics rather than links?

Subject: Should I post lyrics rather than links?
From: Zebedee
Date: 15 Oct 00 - 09:26 AM

In a recent PP&M thread (here) Joe Offer mentions that Max wants us to post lyrics rather than just pointing people towards external links.

That's fine by me, but was wondering whether this goes for every lyric request. A recent request for a Sheena Easton song (here) comes to mind...

Grateful for any clarification as to best practice.

Zeb

Subject: RE: Help: Should I post lyrics rather than links?
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 15 Oct 00 - 09:33 AM

Joe told me to use links, instead of posting lyrics from the DT. As far as outside links to lyrics, I would imagine the same applies. Best to send Joe a personal message, and ask his advice on this issue. Yours, Aye. Dave

Subject: RE: Help: Should I post lyrics rather than links?
From: Sergio Alguim
Date: 15 Oct 00 - 09:46 AM

I think lyrics are better then links, but its also interesting to know where you found it. Maybe the place you found it has other lyrics from the same artists ?

Subject: RE: Help: Should I post lyrics rather than links?
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Oct 00 - 09:55 AM

I'm not sure where Joe and Dick draw the line, or if they do. I think they want lyrics to songs people are singing. If the request for lyrics to a pop song, and it's a "one-off" request - well, that's what I'm not sure about. For example, if someone asks about an Alice Cooper or Peggy Lee song. In any case, it doesn't hurt to post any songs, because it's up to Dick to decide what goes into the DT. (Sorry, if it sounds like I'm waffling here, it's because I am.)

I think they'd rather have the lyrics posted (after checking to see if they're already in the DT) because lyrics sites have a way of disappearing. Then again, Joe can follow a link to collect a song, and if it's on a web page, it's already HTML formatted.

Subject: RE: Help: Should I post lyrics rather than links?
From: wysiwyg
Date: 15 Oct 00 - 10:26 AM

Jeri's comment reflects what Joe told me when I asked him about it when we met in San Francisco. I am sure that both sets of advice have been given, and I don't get why, but my sense is that when in doubt it is better to go ahead and post lyrics here, no matter the genre. And lyrics WITH link is great-- I got a lot of my best bookmarks that way, because I love all kinds of music.

I can't imagine a lyric post like was described taking up any more space than a BS thread-- I mean, if the song is not of wide interest, it will be a pretty short thread, and no harm is done by having the song in. In fact it may make for source material for a great song challenge, or just make someone grin when they come across it, or we might get another Mbo who would figure out how to see it as folk music, and be right!

I think a way of enhancing what might seem NOT to be folk material, when posting it, would be to say what it means to the person posting it, how they would use it, and so on.

Bert said (I think it was Bert, in the hymn thread, I an't coffee'd yet), whatever a Mudcatter posts belongs at Mudcat.

~Susan

Subject: RE: Help: Should I post lyrics rather than links?
From: Alice
Date: 15 Oct 00 - 10:35 AM

Posting the lyrics with the title in the thread MESSAGE subject, Lyr Add: The Song Title Here, makes it easier to find when searching the forum. For example, if there have been new lyrics posted to the forum, the filter can be set using the keywords Lyr Add, setting the filter for however many days, or years, and then all the new ones with Lyr Add in the subject come up. Typing in the lyrics using the format described in the FAQ makes it easier to add them to the DT.

If they are already in the DT database, linking to it is sufficient. Sometimes a song will come up in a discussion and be buried in a thread (I've done this a number of times) and then it is a good idea to start a new thread with Lyr Add: Etc. in the subject title and post the lyrics again, (if they are not in the DT). Did I get that right, Joe, Dick, Susan....?

Subject: RE: Help: Should I post lyrics rather than links?
From: Zebedee
Date: 15 Oct 00 - 10:39 AM

Alice,

I think you misunderstood my question. What I meant, was that if someone asks for a 'pop' song, should I post the lyrics or simply post a link?

Zeb

Subject: RE: Help: Should I post lyrics rather than links?
From: Alice
Date: 15 Oct 00 - 10:49 AM

oh, well, if it isn't already in the DT.... I know what you mean. A few years ago, some people would get tee'd off by a pop song request here at the Mudcat, but I think Dick has said something like, bring it all in, (as long as it already isn't in the DT). You can make a note on that copyrighted material that you are posting it for educational, non-commercial purposes.

Subject: RE: Help: Should I post lyrics rather than links?
From: Jeri
Date: 15 Oct 00 - 11:02 AM

Uh - I should have thought of this before. Try the FAQ - specifically the part about posting lyrics. Sounds kind of fuzzy - "...we ask people to feel free to post whatever lyrics they'd like in the Mudcat Forum - keeping in mind that we are primarily a folk and blues site." Dick and Joe may decide the lyrics are too easy to come by and not actually sung enough to grab them for the DT.

Subject: RE: Help: Should I post lyrics rather than links?
From: MMario
Date: 15 Oct 00 - 08:39 PM

My rule of thumb is that the harder it is for me to find the lyrics the more reason to post them in the forum. If there is a request and I do a web search and find the lyrics in a couple dozen places, then I probably will just post a link. If it take digging, then I post the lyrics.

Subject: RE: Help: Should I post lyrics rather than links?
From: GUEST,Jim Dixon
Date: 16 Oct 00 - 12:50 AM

Here's my 2 cents worth:

If the song is already in DigiTrad, or already in another thread, then don't post the lyrics again; that just wastes space on the server. Post a link instead.

If the song is so thoroughly "pop" that you can't imagine a "folksinger" (in the loosest possible sense of that word) ever wanting to add it to his repertoire and perform it as part of a "folk" program, then post a link, if you feel like being that helpful. (You could also just suggest a method of finding it using a popular search engine. This has the advantage that it encourages pop-oriented music fans to find songs on their own and not bother us with inappropriate postings.)

For everything else -- everything that fits a very loose definition of "folk" and isn't already in a Mudcat thread or DigiTrad -- post the lyrics if you can.

Subject: Post Lyrics If We Don't Have 'Em
From: Joe Offer
Date: 16 Oct 00 - 04:45 AM

Jim did a darn good job of explaining the policy, but maybe I'd better clear up misconceptions that Dave and Alice stated.

If lyrics are in the Forum or the Digital Tradition already, please do not post them again. If somebody requests that song, post a link or copy-paste the URL of the thread where the song is located. If the lyrics are offsite please post them (unless they're pop lyrics that people aren't likely to request again). Two reaons for that - links tend to expire, and then then we don't have access to the song any more. Secondly, lyrics that are posted in the form can be found by a Mudcat search, and that's very handy.

Alice has a point about the thread title affecting the filter, but the Forum Search and SuperSearch do a much better job of pinpointing songs if you just make sure the MESSAGE title says ADD and the song title. Do a forum search and a SuperSearch for Creggan and you'll see how easy it is to tell which message has the lyrics, and also to see that it has been harvested. If you post lyrics and you're not certain we'll find them, post a message in the Songs You've Posted thread, which makes it very easy for us to harvest songs.
We harvesters have been swamped, working our fingers to the nub, so please don't be too concerned if your song doesn't appear in the database right away. The Forum is a searchable database, too -so your song can be found as soon as you post it.
Thanks.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: early AM silliness
From: GUEST,Susan-Marie
Date: 16 Oct 00 - 08:24 AM

Harvesting songs....I love that, although it does stir up faintly ominous associations in my Sci-Fi addled brain. Look OUT!! The harvesters are coming......hide the song sheets and put out the decoy banjos!

I didn't realize the title of the message was as important as the title of the thread. That's a good point to keep in mind.

Subject: RE: Help: Should I post lyrics rather than links?
From: GUEST,Fedele (not a guest)
Date: 16 Oct 00 - 10:50 AM

And another important thing:
DO NOT POST MORE THAN A SONG IN A THREAD IF THE THREAD TITLE REQUESTS _ONE_ SONG! PLEASE! START ANOTHER "LYR ADD" THREAD AND PUT A LINK TO THAT IN THE PREVIOUS ONE!
I can't get mad in trying to find lyrics. And poor Joe can't get mad in re-directing me to the right threads or songs when I miss something while seacrching in a hurry. Think of poor old Joe. Poor, poor Joe...
;-)

---

Hi, Fedele - it's not really that ironclad. As long as the MESSAGE includes the words "ADD" and the song title, post the lyrics wherever they fit. What gets confusing is when people REQUEST lyrics in a thread with a misleasing title. If two songs are related, it's perfectly appropriate to post them both in the same thread.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Help: Should I post lyrics rather than links?
From:
Date: 16 Oct 00 - 11:21 AM

One of the minor problems with the links to DT database, is that once in a while the database NAME will change. Ie Fall99 vs another one. I've checked on threads where I posted a link to a song in the database here, and find that the link I had made previously, doesn't work any longer.

Is there any way to update links once the database name changes?

Subject: RE: Help: Should I post lyrics rather than links?
From: Susan of DT
Date: 16 Oct 00 - 07:40 PM

1. If a song is already in the Digital Tradition - don't post a link - tell the seeker how to find it. That way he can find more than just that one song. Also, don't post a link to another site, if the song is here, unless there is something special on that other site.

2. If someone requests a song that is clearly pop and a commercial quantity - post a link to another site and do not post the words here.

3. If a song is not in the Digital Tradition and you think it should be, post the words rather than a link. Joe may go follow all the links, I usually don't. Or send it to me or Joe, preferably in ASCII (text).

Subject: RE: Help: Should I post lyrics rather than links?
From: rabbitrunning
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 09:42 AM

Well, we've gotten the "official" word, but I can't resist adding my two cents.

In general, if I found it somewhere here, I put a link to where I found it.

If I found it "offsite" I put lyrics in the forum if the song is clearly a "folk song" or if the question showed up more than once in my searches of the mudcat (a couple of the MASH songs, for example.) I feel that even offbase requests should be answered and if the question shows up multiple times, well, it deserves a notation that actually answers it consistently. I try to provide the link, too, if the site has lots of lyrics. I don't necessarily expect that sort of song to end up in the DT, but once it's in the forum, it's available. And some "commercial" songs of the past have clearly drifted into the "folk" category via the folk process, so a hundred years from now it might be fun to watch the process in action in old messages.

*But* if the place where I found the lyrics is an "official" site -- Rod McKuen lyrics at Rod McKuen's website, for example -- then I just put the link. I'm a little chary of reposting the lyrics in that case, although I'm not sure I can consistently explain why.

On the whole, I know that if I'm asking the question about lyrics, what I really want is a clear answer. And usually, that means lyrics.