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BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***

GospelPicker (inactive) 16 Oct 00 - 02:25 PM
GUEST,khandu 16 Oct 00 - 04:27 PM
katlaughing 16 Oct 00 - 04:36 PM
GUEST,The Yank 16 Oct 00 - 05:00 PM
paddymac 16 Oct 00 - 05:16 PM
mousethief 16 Oct 00 - 05:18 PM
Little Hawk 16 Oct 00 - 05:33 PM
wysiwyg 16 Oct 00 - 05:39 PM
McGrath of Harlow 16 Oct 00 - 06:23 PM
hesperis 16 Oct 00 - 06:32 PM
Zebedee 16 Oct 00 - 06:48 PM
GospelPicker (inactive) 17 Oct 00 - 12:01 AM
flattop 17 Oct 00 - 12:28 AM
katlaughing 17 Oct 00 - 12:33 AM
GospelPicker (inactive) 17 Oct 00 - 01:04 AM
wysiwyg 17 Oct 00 - 01:07 AM
catspaw49 17 Oct 00 - 01:15 AM
katlaughing 17 Oct 00 - 01:22 AM
GospelPicker (inactive) 17 Oct 00 - 01:28 AM
catspaw49 17 Oct 00 - 01:42 AM
katlaughing 17 Oct 00 - 01:47 AM
GospelPicker (inactive) 17 Oct 00 - 01:48 AM
bbelle 17 Oct 00 - 10:31 AM
GUEST,The Yank 17 Oct 00 - 11:52 AM
wysiwyg 17 Oct 00 - 11:56 AM
wysiwyg 17 Oct 00 - 11:59 AM
wysiwyg 17 Oct 00 - 12:40 PM
GospelPicker (inactive) 17 Oct 00 - 01:00 PM
Jon Freeman 17 Oct 00 - 01:21 PM
Sean Belt 17 Oct 00 - 01:49 PM
wysiwyg 17 Oct 00 - 02:21 PM
Jeri 17 Oct 00 - 02:33 PM
Jon Freeman 17 Oct 00 - 02:56 PM
Jon Freeman 17 Oct 00 - 03:00 PM
Jeri 17 Oct 00 - 04:18 PM
Jon Freeman 17 Oct 00 - 04:37 PM
katlaughing 17 Oct 00 - 04:48 PM
Jeri 17 Oct 00 - 05:18 PM
Jon Freeman 17 Oct 00 - 05:34 PM
catspaw49 17 Oct 00 - 06:03 PM
katlaughing 17 Oct 00 - 06:10 PM
Little Neophyte 17 Oct 00 - 06:10 PM
flattop 17 Oct 00 - 06:23 PM
wysiwyg 17 Oct 00 - 06:57 PM
bbelle 17 Oct 00 - 08:03 PM
Jon Freeman 17 Oct 00 - 08:56 PM
wysiwyg 17 Oct 00 - 09:08 PM
wysiwyg 17 Oct 00 - 09:11 PM
bbelle 17 Oct 00 - 09:21 PM
Jon Freeman 17 Oct 00 - 09:23 PM

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Subject: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: GospelPicker (inactive)
Date: 16 Oct 00 - 02:25 PM

Here we go again... People with NO practical evidence to back up their rantings, and yet they spout off at the mouth about thibgs they are afraid of... Rich's comment about "pie in the sky theology" is pure hogwash... (it's in the "Who gives a D*** thread)

It just proves a theory I've had for a long time... Truth requires the assumption of great responsibility... just as a history book editor would have to answer to Custer's descendents if he printed what scumbags those Army cowards were, a person who has a REAL encounter with GOD is really required to acknowledge His presence and power and stop living as though God was not God...

The Bible says, "Much is expected of the man to whom much is given."

I think that applies to the "free speech" nonsense we have had to endure from the NeoNazis and the pornographers; it alos applies to people making blanket assumptions about whether Praise, Khandu and myself are starry-eyed followers of "pie in the sky"... 'Nuff said.

GospelPicker

@*^)[+] (looking starry-eyed)


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: GUEST,khandu
Date: 16 Oct 00 - 04:27 PM

Amen, my brother, Amen!

There is security in familiarity. Some people I have known prefer their misery over change because change requires a degree of risk. However, the greater risk lies in refusing to change.

I read, but did not reply to the "Who gives a d***" thread, due to the attitude of the author. One can acknowlege one's misery in a truly seeking manner, and benefit from the input of others. Or one can just try to put his misery on any who would listen to him, and benefit no one.

I prefer not to have another's misery forced upon me.

khandu


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: katlaughing
Date: 16 Oct 00 - 04:36 PM

And I prefer not to have another's religion forced upon me.

Thank you,

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: GUEST,The Yank
Date: 16 Oct 00 - 05:00 PM

just as a history book editor would have to answer to Custer's descendents if he printed what scumbags those Army cowards were

Boy, bad choice of an example: In light of what was done at the Washita and elsewhere, those Army cowards were- uh- scumbags!

the "free speech" nonsense

Nonsense?? Who's the real nazi here, I wonder?

If these thoughts are an example of your "religion" and your "god", PLEASE keep them to yourself- they're both in very poor taste.


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: paddymac
Date: 16 Oct 00 - 05:16 PM

Well I'll be damned, er, durned. Seems like a bit of vinegar in amongst all the honey.


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: mousethief
Date: 16 Oct 00 - 05:18 PM

The existence of God cannot be proven with 100% certainty, nor can the opposite hypothesis. I have a feeling that when this ceases to be the case, the world will be ending. -C.S. Lewis (rough paraphrase from memory)

Alex
O..O
=o=


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: Little Hawk
Date: 16 Oct 00 - 05:33 PM

Regarding the US Cavalry, and all that...

To say that they were cowards is a bit misleading, depending on which particular men you are referring to, and which particular incident. It was a mixed picture. Some were cowards, many were not.

I am hugely pro-Indian in this whole matter, yet I would not necessarily dismiss Custer's men as cowards. On the contrary, they fought bravely, given the fact that they had been led into an untenable position by an overly reckless and ambitious commander (Custer). Custer himself was exceedingly brave under all circumstances, and was much admired as a warrior chief by the Cheyenne, the Lakota and the other peoples whom he fought against. On the other hand, he lied to them and treated them wrongfully on a number of occasions, and they did not forgive him for his dishonesty. His courage was never in question, but his moral uprightness was, from a Native point of view.

The white attackers at Sand Creek and at the Washita might well be termed cowards in a general sense, because they slaughtered women and children and old people, and they raped women. Yet some of them were surely brave men.

Sometimes, however, angry Indian warriors did those things too...I am sorry to say. As Geronimo said: "Bad things happen in war." Then and now.

My feeling is that the real cowards were the rich and powerful men in Washington who gave the orders and determined the policies from afar. They cynically signed treaties with people like Red Cloud, while quietly planning when they could make their next move to rob the Native people of their land. They broke virtually every treaty they ever signed. They did it all for land, money, and power. They faced no danger, other than losing an election.

So if you want to name cowards, name not the soldiers who usually fought bravely...but the politicians who sent them to do their dirty work.

It's still like that today.

- Little Hawk (who saw the hand of greed and murder come down upon free Indian land and has not forgotten).


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: wysiwyg
Date: 16 Oct 00 - 05:39 PM

Awe gee, here I go. I will try to help, although I will probably make this worse.

OK. I'll say it like this. Under any circumstances, it takes a lot of mutual understanding and respect to discuss what is in this thread, from any angle of anyone's post. Some of the people who have not been around Mudcat very long may not YET have built up that understanding to a point where the things they are eager to say clearly can be heard clearly or at all.

And some of the people who have been around the Mudcat for a long time have seen many such discussions go swirling right down the tubes, and a lot of pain has been left behind on the surface, and they may not be ready to go there again.

I see people in this thread who I know a little and love a lot, trying to speak and hear clearly, but it falls short without the foundation of friendship.

There is a line where what can be handled, and what can't now be handled, divide. The line moves all the time, and is never straight either, it wiggles. It seems to me, after a fair amount of experience and effort, that you need to keep your eye on that line and know where you are in relation to it. And to let other people be wherever they are, in relation to it, with respect.

I do not mean the line between heaven and hell, right or wrong, truth or lie, or between people of different values or whatever difference they may have. I mean simply the line between what is actually possible at any given point in time.

That line does not behave well when pushed. It moves, all right, but like a downed live power line whipping in the wind. And it does much harm until it is shut off or tied down.

That line has been very, very good to me, and this community has been very, very open to me and with me. I treat is as carefully as I know how to do it without being someone other than my true self. And despite that I have made a lot of mistakes with that line, and others have too. But if this is going to be a good place for all, I think that you have to think about how to give that line time to find its own place.

We all speak and hear more clearly when that is allowed.

Another way to say it borrows from shipboard realities. Don't catch your leg in the line attached to the anchor. Anchors tend to go over the side. That is what they are made for. The line looks harmless now all coiled on the deck. But it will come to life like nobody's bidness, faster than you can say Whale Oil Beef Hooked! And if you've tangled someone else in it with you, well, it's wet down there.

~Susan

$0.02


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Oct 00 - 06:23 PM

To address the Custer etc thread-drift: Being brave doesn't mean you aren't doing wicked things; people who do wickwed things aren't necessarily cowards.

It's just that we tend to throw the word coward at people who do something horrible, because it's one of the most powwerful insults we can think of when directed against an enemy. So you get absurd things like Clinton the other day denouncing the suicide bombers in Yemen as "cowards" - which is the one thing you can't reasonably say about a suicide bomber. The very same Nazis who carried out appalling atrocities were often insanely brave themselves. The same goes for many of the US Cavalry who did the same kind of things as the Nazis back in the 19th century. And scumbags seems a reasonable, if restrained way of referring tomthem

But I took it that GospelPicker was using this as an example of how, when you say something true - (eg that the US Cavalry were involved in genocide) - you have to be ready for it to have consequences in real life, (because in the instance given they might have decendents with similar proclivities.) And in the same way, if you come to a belief in a principle, or a committment to a person (in this instance, God), that has real consequences, and isn't just a theoretical idea to be toyed with and put away.

Anyway, that's how I understood it. But I'm not too clear where the thread is headed.


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: hesperis
Date: 16 Oct 00 - 06:32 PM

When I was really depressed, I would constantly think "nobody cares!" over and over again. I would cry for hours with this thought going through my mind, torturing me.

But it was me who had stopped caring for myself. Yes, I was in a bad situation, but I withdrew affection and caring from myself too.

When I had learned, even through much pain, to care for myself again, I found an amazing number of people who now care about me too.

If you are being oppressed by impersonal institutions, refuse to let them just treat you as if you're just a number. If you are being oppressed by people, keep caring about yourself. It is worth it.

~*sirepseh*~


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: Zebedee
Date: 16 Oct 00 - 06:48 PM

The only 'damn' that I give here is a simple thank you. I'm happy to go out of my way (and time) to do web searches for others who don't know how to, or can't be bothered.

If the ratio of my time spent, to the number of 'thank you's gets too small, I'll give up.

Zeb


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: GospelPicker (inactive)
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 12:01 AM

McGrath,

I applaud you... you are absolutely right in your assessment of my post... Kat, no one is forcing you to do anything... I was simply stating that there are people who have had REAL experiences... be they religious, emotional, WHATEVER... then someone comes along and, without a whiff of fact to back up their statements, starts name-calling (pie-in-the-sky).

I am only trying to say that there is NO CALL for people to go demeaning others' beliefs in the name of apathy; What I mean is that just because one can't be bothered to investigate all the options open to them in life, that doesn't give them the right to push their sorry "who cares" attitude on others...

In closing, I CARE... always will. anyone who claims that something is wrong had better have an alternative when the need arises.

GospelPicker

@:()>[+]


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: flattop
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 12:28 AM

Maybe it's a Canadian thing but pie occasionally has positive connotations.


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 12:33 AM

GP, I have no argument with your caring etc. I DO have a problem with people making assumptions, i.e. that we are all Christian, that we DON'T have an alternative to your god, or that we all want to hear continuous *witnessing* in the threads. There are other ways to word such things, which many Mudcatters have done, both Christian and non, which respect our differences.

This has happened before on the Mudcat and I am sure it will balance itself out. Just please do not assume we are all coming from the same religious background as yourself. And, many of us have investigated the options, as you say, for most of our lives, and are quite comfortable with what and who we are.

Thank you,

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: GospelPicker (inactive)
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 01:04 AM

WOW... you read my mind... HOW did you guess I was such a narrow-minded A**hole as to assume that we are all the same religion or of the same beliefs? I NEVER make that assumption...

Secondly, what I said had nothing to do with witnessing... I was just expressing my anger and sadness at the "new tolerance"... it's perfectly OK to have a lousy attitude, but when someone mentions the word, "GOD", right away, it's, "don't gimme nunna dat Jeesis stuff... I doan wanna hear no kynna Bible-thumpin!"

If anyone has things "forced on them" it is the people who want to share their faith but get BLASTED for "witnessing"...

You want to live your life so narrow-mindedly that you would never consider someone else's faith as possibly the one you have been searching for? I sure wouldn't if I was searching... That is what the subject of this thread was and is doing...

The idea that there is no option other than "my God" is an insult... not because I'm saying that there is no other option (You didnt ask that); I am insulted, quite frankly, because I seem to being made out to be some sort of wannabe guru alternately condemning you and whispering, "joooiiinnn uuusss! JOIN US!"... nothing is further from true... You have your beliefs; I respect them completely. Just don't jump up my ass when I attempt to defend my beliefs... I have as much right to be indignant about his "pie" comment as anyone would...

GP


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 01:07 AM

Steve. Please read what I wrote to you above.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 01:15 AM

First...the comment you refer to was an OBVIOUS troll and needed no response. None. Has that posteer ever argued with you since the first post? Nope.

You GP are entitled to whatever beliefs you wish to have. Kat is entitled to the same. Please be aware that we have been through this on several occasions and though you may not feel you are witnessing, it comes across that way. We had a long and nasty argument over something known as healing threads here and as a reult it was generally agreed to keep more personal things to PM's and e-mails and not pump whatever belief we have in the forum. We have many differing beliefs and we need to respect all and that means that none of us are free even accidentally trod on another. Let's leave it alone and agree that we all may disagree and that we are all serious in our beliefs and often easily offended.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 01:22 AM

That's what I meant, Spaw, thank you for making it clearer.

GP, you might want to do a little homework and read some of the older threads with "healing" in the title; as a relative newcomer it might help you to understand what we are talking about.

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: GospelPicker (inactive)
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 01:28 AM

I understand the hurting power that words can have when they look so stark on a page or a screen... not much room for interpretation when you only have letters and spaces and no trace of body language, vocal tone or facial expression...

Having been a poet and a songwriter for many years now, I should have realized that a lot of my thoughts would have been better expressed in a forum where I could get an immediate response and have some give and take... Kat, Praise, Spaw, all you others...

I am sorry. I did not realize how harsh and immovable my stance seemed till I read it in cold type.

GospelPicker

@:()>[+]


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 01:42 AM

That's one of those things we all fight with all the time here GP........Its VERY hard to convey all the nuance of everyday speech, the inflection, facial expression....very tough. I'm lucky to have lasted long enough around here so that I am generally taken in about the way I mean to be taken, but its taken a long time and there have been a lot of skirmishes in the meantime that I never meant to occur. Everypalce develops a history and some issues are very sensitive at one point and that sensitivity may carry on or become lessened with time. Around here we've seen both. One day perhaps, we'll figure a way to express even some of our relgious beliefs with the nuance we often still lack because, as you say, its just "black and white" there on the screen.

Let's move on, whaddaya think?

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 01:47 AM

For the evil twin, you sure are being eloquent, tonight, Spaw. I think I will appoint you my official spokescatter from now on!

Thanks,

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: GospelPicker (inactive)
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 01:48 AM

Mwa! Mwa! Mwa!

(kisses all around! Maybe weesa beeing frenz!

GospelPicker

@:()>[+]


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: bbelle
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 10:31 AM

kat and catspaw ... To what you wrote, I concur.

This next is my opinion.

I have no problem with non-music threads and post to a few of them and have a good time doing so. This, along with the music threads, make us a community.

This is exactly the type of thread, however, that will push me to say that non-music threads ARE BS, as in bullshit, and I would rather see only MUSIC threads on the forum. Proselytizing and Witnessing should be done on a private personal level with those who ask for it. I'm tired of opening the forum and having it stuffed in my face.

And, GospelPicker, if you think "free speech" is "utter nonsense," your problem is deeper than I imagined.

This is not the Holy Mudcat or the Mudcat Temple. It is The Mudcat Cafe, Dedicated to Blues and Folk Music (and bluegrass, by golly).

jenny


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: GUEST,The Yank
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 11:52 AM

Little Hawk:

(with apologies for continued thread drift)

My feeling is that the real cowards were the rich and powerful men in Washington who gave the orders and determined the policies from afar.

I realize that "Washington Bashing" and "Federal Government Bashing" are currently in vogue in some circles & especially the Republical National Committee, but there is such a thing as personal responsibility. Nobody 'ordered' these "brave soldiers"[sic] to rape & murder. That's not war, that's genocide. Does "My Lai" ring a bell? IMHO.


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 11:56 AM

I read what my friends are writing and wonder if we have connected at all. I think we have... then I wonder... then I think we have... I wonder if we are friends at all or just people being nice in an uneasy peace for the sake of quiet. I don't hear from some of them and I wonder if it is something I said or did. Was I too much of myself? Did I not hold back something? Am I supposed to?? More and more, I can;t. More and more, there is just all of me, not in broken pieces to dole out anymore.

Then I wonder if it is something someone else said or did that I don't even know about, just now, or long ago... I only know what I can see. I see people holding back around me.... I wish they would not.

All I know is, I am not witnessing AT anyone as much as I am being what I am and who I am. I have been doing a lot of thinking about that. The difference between evangelizing and proselytizing. You try to tell me but the words are so full of old wounds I can't see how I fit into them, but I keep looking. You've made me think about it, because I care how my friends are, includig how they are about me... so what I have concluded, and what I think about now to see where it will lead, is that what I try to do is share good news, any that I can. Sometimes it comes from a book that I have lived a lot of lessons from. But only when I have lived it-- only what I have learned-- not, I seriously hope, "Here is your problem and here is the one solution and dammit, you go do it or something real bad will happen."

That's BAD news.

I am not going to be about BAD news.

There is too much GOOD news to tell...

And I see see GP here struggling to find a voice in the world, and his effort here making people question what they have experienced eith me, and it makes me sad because what I have experienced with you has been wonderful, and I would hope it gets more so, not less.

It's true of people writing in this thread and others who watch. You know who you are.

And I see friends wanting me to understand what they say on this so much, and me trying, over and over, we go around and around, but I also see a sense that my friends do not see that they too are witnessing all the time-- what you believe comes through, it does, whether you name it or not. Isn;t that how it should be? Should our beliefs not guide us and be reflected from us? Would they be worth having if they didn't?

I think all people are teaching what they believe all the time-- that's how people learn from one another. Every time someone says they are holding me in the light, it's a witness. Sometimes a frightening one, to tell you the truth. I don't say so. I go think about it and pray about it and I remember that you are first, my friend.

GP, the layers of sea here are many and deep. Many temperatures, many creatures immersd in it. Watch the line... don't sling it around so fast, please. This is a place where people try to hear, much more than in most places. If we shout it only hurts ears.

This is a place to come close and speak with gentle truth. People are smart, especially the ones already here. They will take what they need. They know what that is, better than we do. About anything-- music, politics, people, spirituality. Please don't miss seeing it. It's part of what this place can give you.

GP, maybe you are not here to give, exactly, maybe this is a place to receive for awhile.

Why did I not put this in a PM? Because I would have to spend the whole day copying it and pasting it to too many people. And because people are watching and reading and thinking, about all of this, and we do not know who they are.

Your feedback welcome.

Also see the old thread on should we care what people think. It dovetails nicely with this one. I'll find the URL for it and add it.

Maybe this would all work better if we could recall that every thread here is actually a Part X, Y or Z of one that went before,to someone here if not all.

D'ya thgink?

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 11:59 AM

This thread is current now, and I think related. It also has links to others related, including the one referenced above.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 12:40 PM

Sorry, paste did not work, above.

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=26400&messages=24


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: GospelPicker (inactive)
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 01:00 PM

NO, MOONJEN, i DO NOT THINK THAT FREE SPEECH IS NONSENSE... I simply meant that in the struggle to keep free speech alive, we have to deal with the dreck who hide behind "free speech" in an attempt to push hatred and smut on decent people.

GP


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 01:21 PM

Well, pesronally, I am sick of Christianity. When I first started praying for help over one thing, I had a job and some form of life. The prayers to Christ were rewarded by thoughts like "Well if you want a girlfriend you must pray to the devil" (not Jayne who I mentioned, this was in about 1987, a subsequent trip to a mental hospital and the label schizophrenia, then no job, then alcholosim, then got knows what including going through exorcisms as it was felt strongly that there was Demonic oppression going on (which I still suspect is the truth).

I watch myself go further and further down hill and continue to ask for help and get denyied by Christ. I honestly am at the point where I believe I should have prayed to the devil all those years ago.

I do believe there is a God and that Christ was his son but since me making the effort to try to find him and pray for help I have been shit on by them.

Take my advice, find a decent God - not this one! Jon


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: Sean Belt
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 01:49 PM

Geez Louise!!!

If I were a first timer reading this thread, I'm not sure I'd ever come back! The level of intolerance of others' viewpoints and the sheer nastiness of some of the responses is shameful. I've read this whole thread up to this point and am sickened by most of what I see.

Some of the regulars ('Spaw, Kat, Moonjen, and particularly Praise) seem to have a clue here about civility and friendship. But some of the rest of you are waaaay out of line.

I'm not asking for a universal love fest or anything, but puh-lease! Let's all keep in mind that we kinda like each other and that our religions or lack thereof are what makes us the people we all like. Or something like that.

I'm really hoping that this streak of nastiness that's been surfacing in the Mudcat for the last little while is the exception and not the rule, but I'm beginning to have my doubts.

No flames, please, but feel free to PM me if you've a burning desire to discuss this further.

- Sean


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 02:21 PM

Sean, I honestly believe that what looks like nastiness is really just an accumulated frustration over the difficulty of making words wrap around things far too big for words. Frustrating to try to say, and frustrating to try to hear. On top of harms done in the name of something good.

The day I think that isn't so, well OK the weeklong struggle when I conclude that ain't so-- I'm outta here.

I am not an optimist. I persist against discouragement but I am not optimistic.

And I guess that I try to hear good news in what is said, as much as I try to be a sayer of it myself. We do have that choice, although it can be hard work sometimes. But if I look, I can see good news in every post here. Maybe I'm just tired of translating it into terms others can hear, today.

But-- I am here, and where I am, is also prayer and care.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: Jeri
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 02:33 PM

Jon, I'm butting in here, but what the...
I think most Christians would tell you prayers for things you want would probably not do much. Praying for the strength to get yourself those things would be better. A lot of what happens after that is up to you. (And yep, it's also up to other people, the way the world works and chance.)

I think there are some things I can affect and some I can't - I have to know what I'm capable of and try to do it. We all screw up - we're human. It's what we do with the failures that counts.

From this non-religious person's point of view, (another side heard from) praying to the devil wouldn't have got you any further, but could have resulted in you being in a worse position. It may look like it would have been better, but that's just because it's unknown - the grass is always greener on the path not taken. You'd have given in to thinking evil had power, justifying it, and feeling guilty. You wouldn't have the friends you have now, you wouldn't try to help people or even care about them, and you wouldn't be the kind and humor-filled person I know. Are the things you wanted and didn't get more important than who you are?


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 02:56 PM

Praise, good for you but:

Why should praying make things worse for me? I had a life before.

What about demonic opression, does it exist or not?

Just to pick on my favourite example why was it that the only time I decided to expose some of the beyond control aspects in my life and used the lack of a female relationship, that one came within less than a week and the 2 I had did not come until I was 36/37 - don't think I'm that bad I guy - more like I was deprived until I got near to fall into exposing what science would call paranoia - why did I not get one before or since?

This whole explosion and has been building up with me for some time and started with the unexplained threads which I managed to stay out of but how about:

Family life went one way until I was around 7 possibly 8. Things turned wierd then.

I grew to hate my father that I loved until then
The family who was a church going family suddenly stopped going
I developed a bed wetting problem and Tim developed some wiered unexplained epelespy that went as strangely as it came
On the odd occasions that my father used to go to communion he couldn't
The "ghost" of my grandmother was seen walking through the house although not by me but all us kids became (independently - we didn't find out the fears of others until we left this house a few years later)
My father ceased being loyal to my mother and started having affairs

All this and more can be timed to within a 1 year spell.

This will sound even dafter but my dad's stroke was preceded by me in a fit of drunkeness accusing him of killing this grandmother. I honestly could not control what I said which was along the lines of he overdosed her with heart tablets that she took (she had glandular fever as a kid and had a weak heart valve) and that caused her a stroke, my dad's was a suspected heart attack which was not - the clot buster did it to him and near kiiled him - not bad 2 days after.

How about my mother announcing a vision of a fight and flashing lights, only turned out to be the day that I fisrt met Jayne's Mike from prison and he beat her...

I can carry on but the frightening fact is that I can provide witnesses to all of the above and more so it can not be put down to my imagination or mental ilness (and I can list more and more co-incidences if anyone wishes them) and that my life has been something like a horror story since 1987.

What I really want is some Christian to come up with a solution but in all this time of me trying, this has not occured. My searches have extended to local priests, Elle Grange, monasteries (although I have difficulties with some of the RC beliefs - maybe some blame myself there), letters to people like Roger Carswell (leading evangelical's in the UK) and web searches talking to people worldwide.

No one has managed to deny that what I has said is untrue and overall, the suggestion has been that there is a Christain answer. The best I have had is "God knows what he is doing and it is OK". I am 13 years on from my first brush with Christ (although I had prayed for somethings earilier) and have already written off some of my desires such as kids.

I feel truely shit on by Christ and I want a why from some Christain that actually explains matters than either the "Oh well.." or "the what an evil person I must be" and gives the real whys and solutions.

I can take no more of it.

Jon


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 03:00 PM

Jeri, point of fact, even agreement in my own mind that I would be better off praying to the devil, did put an end to the bed problem, at least for a while (until I decided I was not going that or his way).

Jon


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: Jeri
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 04:18 PM

What are the chances that your belief that such a thing would help actually caused it to help?

Even (perhaps especially) people who are devoutly religious know the power of belief.

Whatever you believe, Jon, believe that people care about you and that you're worthy of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 04:37 PM

Answer to #1, I am not aware that it was a belief of mine, just a reccuring "you've should be praying to the devil" thought at the time. I can come up with 2 viewpoints at this stage, maybe I should have taken the "pray to the devil line". Perhaps everyhing was all the wierd events that happend were caused by my mind. Assuming my mind could do that and I was unaware of its own power and the condition of praying to the devil was something my mind created, I most definately should have prayed to the devil. The other one was sticking to the no, the power is outside and I must stick with God... I wonder why I bothered. The trouble I have with the other possibilites is the sets of coincidences and precise timeimgs I would have to accept (and can provide witness from others too - getting out of touch with reality becomes hard to reason with in those circumstances).

I don't understand your #2/

I know #3 but although I apreciate friends and know I have them, it doesn't really help me solve anything.

Jon


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 04:48 PM

Jon, first I want to thank you for sharing so much with us. I know it must be painful. I can hear the pain in your words.

In my beliefs, in metaphysics, we do believe there is a Higher Power/God/Goddess/Cosmic, whatever one wants to call it. We also believe, just as most Christians do, that the Entity gave us free will. I am NOT saying you or any of your famiy consciously chose any of the horrendous things you told us about. I am just trying to let you see that we cannot place all responsibility and blame on "God's" shoulders.

I have been through some terrible things including rape, spousal abuse, living with an alcoholic, major health problems, etc. I wasn't very happy about them when they happened, but I knew deep down that there were lessons to be learned. I felt that if I could learn even one thing from an experience it was worth going through.

I hear my brother blame the "Cosmic" for everything. He prays, meditates, etc. He is loved by many, understood by few. He is stuck in a spot of feeling he is the victim and not moving on to what I believe the Universe is just waiting to help him with. I do not believe you are like him, at all, Jon, just using him as an example.

I do not believe the Universe can help us or *give* us anything until we are ready. If we want to bring something into our life, we have to be ready for all of the responsibilities it entails. Sometimes, we even have to make room for it. A simple illustration is giving away clothing we no longer need or use and giving thanks that we are guided to or receive new outfits.

One more thing, and then I will quit: if we pray for things, it focusses on our lack of them. If we give thanks for what we already have and for receiving "this or something better, for the highest good of all concerned," then we are accepting that we already are supplied with what we desire or may need. This also sets up our subconscious, which is like a computer (it believes everything it takes in, in a literal way), to believe that we deserve our Good, that we are receiving our Good, in short, it begins to focus on the positives which can bring about great changes as our perception of our world has changed in a profound manner.

Louise Hay has some really good books out on this, Jon. Before she gets out of bed, she starts giving thanks, for her bed, for the day, for the sunshine, her pets, etc.

Jeri is right, there are a bunch of us on here who are proud to call you friend and care deeply about you. Please Jon, if you can, try to release the past hurts from your life. Let us, and the music you are so brilliant in, fill up those empty spaces which come about from such release.

With respect and love,

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: Jeri
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 05:18 PM

Re #2, perhaps faith is a better word than belief. As in walking on water. (Actually the first and second things should have been in the same paragraph. I didn't intend to separate them like that.) On a non-religious level, the power of suggestion is a very strong force. If I'm afraid I'm going to forget the lyrics of a song, I'll do it. I don't have to make a decision to do the thing that frightens me - all I have to do is think about it.

You never said you actually did anything. All you said was "...even agreement in my own mind that I would be better off praying to the devil, did put an end..." You just thought about it.

Having friends may not help you solve anything, but it's something that's gone right in your life, eh? Even if you didn't specifically ask or pray for it?


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 05:34 PM

Cheers Jeri and kat, I will think on it but I doubt if I will end up moving from Christainity even though I hate what it has done to me - I wish I could but it seems to one of lifes traps and one I wish I was out of.

As well of thinking about your words, I will think of the one who we (Christians) are all remined of who apparently got his time of suffering over in a couple of days, and went through in it agreement that it was going to happen and in certain knowledge that he would rise again. Sorry to preach here but I for one, would have rather had the tr ial and the time on the cross than years of torment... Sorry cancer victims, etc, your suffering was never as great as his.

Jon


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 06:03 PM

Jo, I personally don't care what you believe or don't, just so its workin' for you. What I believe is that you're a helluva' good guy and I'm glad I know you. I guess I tend to believe in people.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 06:10 PM

Jon, I meant to say, but forgot, a lot of what I posted about positive thinking etc. I learned from Unity School of Christianity.

The giving thanks in advance bit I learned more from First Nations medicine people. There are different types of Christianity. If you are interested in learning more about Unity, which is worldwide, please PM me and I will get you some info. My sister is a minister of one of their churches and also was a telephone prayer room worker at "Silent Unity," which is completely free and without obligation, receives millions of calls from all over the world every year.

Good luck in sorting it out.


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 06:10 PM

Jon, focusing on the good things in your life, as Kat was mentioning can really help.
I tend to only focus on the good and I have a feeling this has been my saving grace.
If I were to internalize all the horrible things that have happened to me in my life time, I would probably feel forgotten by God.
But I don't feel forgotten. I feel God within every pore of my being. That is because I appreciate what I have and the loving kindness all around me.
I also give thanks for all the lessons I find within everything I experince.
That to me is living with God.

Bonnie


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: flattop
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 06:23 PM

Jon,

Did you at least, like the priest in Bergman's movie, find a deep understanding of the bit in the bible about, 'My God, why has thou forsaken me?'

You raised a lot of issues in your message - too many to deal with at one time. You seem to be postulating that praying to God is harmful. If you are leaning towards scientific proof, your personal anecdotal evidence doesn't count. God knows, your life might have been worse if you hadn't prayed.

To prove scientifically that prayer is ineffectual, you would have to set up blind tests. You could have one group of two hundred people praying for six months. Another group could take harmless kat worm capsules as a placebo. Still another group could sing only John Prine's Late John Garfield Blues for the whole six months. Then you could look at whose life was most improved or most devastated. I wonder which group would come out ahead.

Did you go away to a school for boys at 7 or 8? George Orwell did and he started wetting the bed. Perhaps it's a British boys' school tradition. You might be in good company on that one. Churchill wouldn't have boasted about it, of course, but Orwell was an honest enough writer to mention it. Even if it was just you and Orwell, you can be proud of being in good company.

And yes, sometimes we have to work ourselves up into a paranoid frenzy to talk to women. At other times they seem almost human. Could it be us and not them? Then they convince us that we have cardboard brains. Ah, just crank up the stereo and let Christie McVie sing the prettiest Songbird, let Christina Smith and Jean Hewson sing so lonesome that we all could cry.

david


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 06:57 PM

Jon, I did not say what you seem to think I did.

Hardi and I have always been here to help you explore all of what you have raised, and more. We stopped hearing from you. You indicated you would be in touch when ready. We did not stop caring, praying, or thinking about you.

As you know, we have experience in the areas you are struggling with. We are still available.

~Susan

motormice@hotmail.com


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: bbelle
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 08:03 PM

Hey, Jon, you've got some serious conversation going on here. Keep it up if it's cathartic for you and don't be embarrassed to get down and dirty with your emotions. There are some wonderful ears trained your way ...'spaw, kat, praise, jeri, flattop, sean, and I hope I've learned from them enough to be a good listener to. And, BTW, Jon, I can say this from experience.

So, babble ~:} on my friend ...

jenny


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 08:56 PM

Praise, that is exactly what I did say at the time - i.e. I would come back when ready. I am just coming back to one of my "wound up with God spells" (sometimes I handle it, sometimes I don't but the fact remains that nothing has changed and it is just a case of handle it, handle it, handle it... The only other fact is things got worse in 13 years I prayed to Christ and I thought I would voice it here and would love to hear public opinions of why this should be from Christians- come on why and what do I do to change it.

If the stuff works, why should it take private emails to answer?

Jon


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 09:08 PM

Jon, why?

1. Because the fragile peace over issues of differences in spirituality is coming apart at the seams and I do not think I am free to answer you in the open without making that worse, so I choose privacy to take the discussion I believe would be involved, all the way, to the mat, belly to belly, till the need has been met.

2. Because it is much, much more practially feasible for me to address a long topic in e-mail with the system tools at hand. I have a lot of these going on right now, and it is much more workable.

3. Because the experience Hardi and I have in this area of struggle includes good stewardship over it, and not shouting into a windstorm of multiple voices with no connection to the person expressing the need.

4. Because responding to your needs requires thought and diligence and a significant commitment of time and resource on our part, and flinging it into the forum does not seem the best way to embody that commitment.

5. Because you deserve personal attention for a personal matter. If it results in things you find appropriate to share in a forum settingm, of course that is your choice.

6. Because we are professionals who conduct ourselves within certain ethical realities and in a preofessional manner.

7. Because we know what we are doing, and because if you want our participation in this kind of assistance that's the way it has to be. There are whole layers, to resonding to this need, that go far beyond any kind of forum relationship. I am inviting you to that relationship.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 09:11 PM

PS, Jon, to clarify that last point-- I am inviting you to the deeper, personal relationship that goes beyond being forum mates. Kinda like, if I were a doctor, I would invite you into my office, not agree to treat you on the sidewalk while we eat hot dogs or fish and chips.

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: bbelle
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 09:21 PM

Jon ... Susie's right ... might be time to take it to PM or email, for your, not our, benefit.

jenny


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 09:23 PM

But Praise, although I have no doubts that you and Hardi are completely sinscer, I spent years of travelling and searching. This time round, I need a why now - either a Christian can give a straight why and what to do about it or they can't.

£100s of pounds were spent in petrol alone trying to visit people with answers, missions were visited, etc. with no answers. What I want to know is; "is there a Christain anwser" without having to go through the same old routine - I have been there many times - lets at least sort this one out once and for all, is there any Christian in Mudcatland who can pray to God and get me an answer for starters?

People are genuine but all I hear/see is preaching.

(Praise, you and Hardi could be the exception but I have been through the church "advice" which starts at

Do you believe in God
Do you go to church
Do you accept Jesus as your saviour
Do you admit to being a sinner

can carry on reeling them off, then when no answer can be found, I must be evil or it must be God's plan...)

Jon


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