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BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***

wysiwyg 19 Oct 00 - 03:10 PM
Little Neophyte 19 Oct 00 - 03:01 PM
wysiwyg 19 Oct 00 - 02:17 PM
Little Neophyte 19 Oct 00 - 10:58 AM
wysiwyg 19 Oct 00 - 07:13 AM
flattop 19 Oct 00 - 12:00 AM
Jon Freeman 18 Oct 00 - 04:20 PM
katlaughing 18 Oct 00 - 02:58 PM
catspaw49 18 Oct 00 - 02:23 PM
harpgirl 18 Oct 00 - 01:46 PM
StandingBear (inactive) 18 Oct 00 - 01:00 PM
katlaughing 18 Oct 00 - 10:39 AM
flattop 18 Oct 00 - 07:11 AM
Jon Freeman 18 Oct 00 - 05:51 AM
wysiwyg 18 Oct 00 - 01:48 AM
Troll 18 Oct 00 - 12:25 AM
katlaughing 18 Oct 00 - 12:21 AM
Little Neophyte 17 Oct 00 - 11:51 PM
bbelle 17 Oct 00 - 10:21 PM
Jon Freeman 17 Oct 00 - 09:54 PM
Jon Freeman 17 Oct 00 - 09:46 PM
harpgirl 17 Oct 00 - 09:46 PM
wysiwyg 17 Oct 00 - 09:34 PM
bbelle 17 Oct 00 - 09:33 PM
Jon Freeman 17 Oct 00 - 09:27 PM
Jon Freeman 17 Oct 00 - 09:23 PM
bbelle 17 Oct 00 - 09:21 PM
wysiwyg 17 Oct 00 - 09:11 PM
wysiwyg 17 Oct 00 - 09:08 PM
Jon Freeman 17 Oct 00 - 08:56 PM
bbelle 17 Oct 00 - 08:03 PM
wysiwyg 17 Oct 00 - 06:57 PM
flattop 17 Oct 00 - 06:23 PM
Little Neophyte 17 Oct 00 - 06:10 PM
katlaughing 17 Oct 00 - 06:10 PM
catspaw49 17 Oct 00 - 06:03 PM
Jon Freeman 17 Oct 00 - 05:34 PM
Jeri 17 Oct 00 - 05:18 PM
katlaughing 17 Oct 00 - 04:48 PM
Jon Freeman 17 Oct 00 - 04:37 PM
Jeri 17 Oct 00 - 04:18 PM
Jon Freeman 17 Oct 00 - 03:00 PM
Jon Freeman 17 Oct 00 - 02:56 PM
Jeri 17 Oct 00 - 02:33 PM
wysiwyg 17 Oct 00 - 02:21 PM
Sean Belt 17 Oct 00 - 01:49 PM
Jon Freeman 17 Oct 00 - 01:21 PM
GospelPicker (inactive) 17 Oct 00 - 01:00 PM
wysiwyg 17 Oct 00 - 12:40 PM
wysiwyg 17 Oct 00 - 11:59 AM

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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: wysiwyg
Date: 19 Oct 00 - 03:10 PM

Yah, Neo, I know it seems like we see it different, but see, I agree with you.

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 19 Oct 00 - 03:01 PM

Praise, in my reality, I am the one working away at all those pores I don't like.
Him and I are one in the same.
I'm so 'Wholey', thats why I've got so many pores.
Lots of stuff goes through one ear and out the other around here because of all those wholes of mine.

Little Neo


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: wysiwyg
Date: 19 Oct 00 - 02:17 PM

Neo, I do not see any conflict between those two realities. I have a lot of pores like that, too, but I still feel Him in them. Good thing, too, they get better with Him in there working away!

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 19 Oct 00 - 10:58 AM

As for my above posting "I feel God within every pore of my being", ya right.
I've notice a few pores that aren't so godly.
Mind you, I kind of like being far from perfect, gives me character.
If I was perfect, I would not be here.

Bonnie


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: wysiwyg
Date: 19 Oct 00 - 07:13 AM

Anyone wishing to pray with me for Jon is ivited to contact me at:

motormice@hotmail.com

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: flattop
Date: 19 Oct 00 - 12:00 AM

Those aren't great numbers Jon when you put them like that. However you said that she said that she had wanted you for years. It took her years to tell you. If other women were interested in you and didn't tell you and you were not reading the signs, there might have been a large number of days where women were interested in you. The number game just gets silly.

I don't mind silly but you might be better off playing different numbers games. One marketing numbers game is based on the premise that it's difficult to get 100 rejections. You write 10 by 10 columns of no on a card and try to collect 100 nos from people. It's very difficult to get out there and not get a yes to mess up you card once in a while.


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 18 Oct 00 - 04:20 PM

Flattop, whatever I am communication wise or otherwise, the first and only time a women did that with me was within 1 week of me trying to use the lack of a girlfriend as part of my proof that life was not giving me a break.

If one said that I was eleigble for a girlfriend at the age of 16 and I'm now 40, whatever I am, that gives roughly 8760 days for any female to be attracted to me and say so. 5/8760 is pretty slim odds....

PS, I was 36 at the time.

Jon


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Oct 00 - 02:58 PM

Welcome to the Mudcat, Standing Bear! If you have any questions just ask. One of us is bound to have more than one answer and we all will usually chime in, as you may already have guessed.

Spaw, thanks for clarifying harpgirl's last post. I'd forgotten Kendall said he was going to Florida! Have to say, with all of the alcoholics in my family, aunts, uncles, brother, past SO, I agree with harpgirl about AA.

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: catspaw49
Date: 18 Oct 00 - 02:23 PM

Ya' know Kendall, I wish you'd remember to reset harp's cookie or something. Its real confusing to read harp talking in THIRD person. I am glad she shaved her beard though...............

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: harpgirl
Date: 18 Oct 00 - 01:46 PM

Jon my friend, I came from an alcoholic family. My father and all 4 brothers had or have a drinking problem. I am the only one who does not. However, I'm not going to preach, I will only say harpgirl sounds right to me. She is far more qualified than I to suggest anything. In checking old threads, I see that she really does care about you.


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: StandingBear (inactive)
Date: 18 Oct 00 - 01:00 PM

I'm new here. Not really sure who is or is not a Christian in the sense that I am. Jon Freeman, if you want Christian answers, allow me to be so bold as to say I can help. I am of Sioux descent, and it took REAL answers to HARD questions that I posed to the Almighty before He showed me His purpose for my life. PM me and I'll give you my email and maybe we can talk. To the rest of you, hello! I live in KY and am a singer/writer/poet and multi-instrumentalist. Hope to get into lots of great threads all about music, life, whatever. Great to be here! I have watched without joining for a while now and must say that this is a fascinating place.

Peace, StandingBear


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Oct 00 - 10:39 AM

Jon, thank you, as for removing them, what worked for my brother was that friend, who is a metaphysical practioner of over 40 years, went into that realm and, I know it sounds corny, but she commanded them to leave him alone, using esoteric words and invoking the Cosmic/God, etc. From that day on he never took another drink. BTW, she is a Christian, a member of Unity, which I'd mentioned before. That is a tradition I come from, too, Jon.

I have a friend who is from Wales who would be bal eot help you, but she is over here now. If I can get in touch with her I could ask if she knows of anyone there. There is another organisation which may have someone who could help. I will PM that to you.

Thanks,

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: flattop
Date: 18 Oct 00 - 07:11 AM

Hello Jon,

I don't have much time time this morning. Late as usual.

>>>> re women, no, someone I'd known since the first Conwy festival suddenly put her arms around me and told me she had wanted me for years within a week after me saying I knew one indisputable proof that my life was weird... I may give the rest of the tale one day but I did not chase her.

Sounds like communication problems to me. If one woman was attracted to you and didn't tell you chances are others are attracted to you too. Are you keeping up dialogues with real people? Do you ask people questions about what they think and feel?

Production Control and Quality Assurance problems will do you in every time (and I thought you had trouble in your soul.) If you apply Demming to your personal life, with continuous improvements, in five years you'll feel as good as a Japanese factory employee who works 54 hours a day, 12 days a week.

david


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 18 Oct 00 - 05:51 AM

Flattop,

re bed, no, I was in a mixed primary school at that time.

re women, no, someone I'd known since the first Conwy festival suddenly put her arms around me and told me she had wanted me for years within a week after me saying I knew one indisputable proof that my life was weird... I may give the rest of the tale one day but I did not chase her.

Troll, I know what you are saying but I have seen psychiatrists and apart from the shizopreninc diagosis that was made purely on the evidence of me hearing voices, they came up with nothing. I have discussed the matter with several. The problem that has defeated them is that although my actions alone could be put down to my mind, the actions of others are more difficult to explain... Perhaps the greatest example of that which I can prove is my work situation.

Hotpoint said and wrote to the psychiatrist saying that I was one of thier best employees and they would do anything they could to help me. In practice, they kept increasing my workload inspite of protests from me. Any doubt on the latter can be proved by the fact that my leaving caused a restructure and what had become my old job was taken by about 2 1/2 people - not bad for a caring company... BTW, in case there s any doubt over my work during this period, I was the author of our department's (Production Control) succesful BS5750 (later became ISO 9000) approval at first attempt and also the user manuals for all stock movements in the introduction of what was called MECCA - again provable - there was nothing wrong with my work to give reasons for them to want to push me to the point of leaving.

kat, I am reading what you say, I'd just hoped for a Christian answer but that never comes. I can relate to your lost souls bit but the question is how to get rid of them?

Praise, I will read and respond to your PM later.

Jon


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: wysiwyg
Date: 18 Oct 00 - 01:48 AM

I did PM Jon in follow-up.

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: Troll
Date: 18 Oct 00 - 12:25 AM

Jon, I think that maybe I have been where you are. It sounde to me like you are self-medicating to deal with your problems. I did it for years. Booze mostly but other things as well. I was finally commited to a mental ward and it was discovered that I am Severly Clinically Depressed and am mildly Bi-polar. With the psychotropic drugs I now take, I can function in the world in a more normal manner.
Please. Go to a clinic and get tested. Your problem may stem from a chemical imbalance in your brain and this CAN be corrected. I fought against the idea of drugs for years because I was afraid they would change me, make me into somebody else. They did. They made me a saner and happier person.
Please get help. It's hard to ask sometimes but the reward can be incredible.
PM me if you need someone to "talk" to. I'll help if I can.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: katlaughing
Date: 18 Oct 00 - 12:21 AM

Jon, do you dismiss what I say because I am not Christian? There are other types of Christianity, as I said before, that I think you would find very enlightening; things are not translated literally from the Bible, rather symbolically. Sins are your negative thoughts and actions, because ultimately they come back at you and cause harm to you. You have a higher self within you, g-d within, who can answer your questions, but it takes a belief in your own worth, too, to get in touch with that higher self.

I do not want to get preachy here because it has felt too much like an online ministry around here lately. I will just offer, again, more info on metaphysical Christianity, if you are interested.

As for demons, believe this or not, when my brother was drinking, I had a friend who went into other planes of existense to *battle* for him. There are not demons, IMO, but there are entities/lost souls who do like to hang around people who drink and try to influence them. These are usually souls who refuse to accept they have died and need to move on; they are still addicted to their old ways and having a hard time, so they live vicariously through people whose defenses are down.

There, now I have probably thoroughly cemented my rep as a crackpot on the Mudcat.*smile*

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 11:51 PM

Praise, I am feeling you are trying to make this forum a resource for your own personal religious ministry.


Bonnie


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: bbelle
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 10:21 PM

Jon, I don't think you need to be preached to, by anyone, and especially by anyone who, by history, is disingenuous. I think Praise is really trying to help, but that is your choice. If I can help, let me know.

jenny


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 09:54 PM

I'd like to think alcohol would kill me tonight Abby but I guess I'll have to wait another day...

Jon

(who's biggest wish in life is to fall asleep and never wake up - just puts a brave face on things)


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 09:46 PM

Fair enough Praise.

No disrespect to you, I doubt that anyone will take on or even admit to demons here. I will look elsewhere.

Jon


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: harpgirl
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 09:46 PM

...Jon I want to add my thoughts here. I like and admire you a great deal and since you have brought the subject of your life up, I have something to say. It is unsolicited and you can tell me to go to hell, however; I think that if you are going to successfully work on your relatonship with God you must do it in a daily AA meeting. I don't think things will work well for you in your life until you get a handle on your drinking. And stop! Alcohol is your enemy at this point in your life. If you can sober up and take it one day at a time I believe the other things you want in life will fall into place for you. You are so smart and such a nice man but alcohol is going to kill you if you don't stop drinking. Lovingly, Abby


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 09:34 PM

No Jon, not here.

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: bbelle
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 09:33 PM

Jon, as you know I'm Jewish, so maybe I don't know about asking g-d why. I just try to find a way through.

jenny


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 09:27 PM

Maybe you are right Jenny but this time round, I am going to take it that in spite of all the preaching I view, there is no Christian in this forum capable of getting a simple why from God.

Jon


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 09:23 PM

But Praise, although I have no doubts that you and Hardi are completely sinscer, I spent years of travelling and searching. This time round, I need a why now - either a Christian can give a straight why and what to do about it or they can't.

£100s of pounds were spent in petrol alone trying to visit people with answers, missions were visited, etc. with no answers. What I want to know is; "is there a Christain anwser" without having to go through the same old routine - I have been there many times - lets at least sort this one out once and for all, is there any Christian in Mudcatland who can pray to God and get me an answer for starters?

People are genuine but all I hear/see is preaching.

(Praise, you and Hardi could be the exception but I have been through the church "advice" which starts at

Do you believe in God
Do you go to church
Do you accept Jesus as your saviour
Do you admit to being a sinner

can carry on reeling them off, then when no answer can be found, I must be evil or it must be God's plan...)

Jon


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: bbelle
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 09:21 PM

Jon ... Susie's right ... might be time to take it to PM or email, for your, not our, benefit.

jenny


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 09:11 PM

PS, Jon, to clarify that last point-- I am inviting you to the deeper, personal relationship that goes beyond being forum mates. Kinda like, if I were a doctor, I would invite you into my office, not agree to treat you on the sidewalk while we eat hot dogs or fish and chips.

~S~


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 09:08 PM

Jon, why?

1. Because the fragile peace over issues of differences in spirituality is coming apart at the seams and I do not think I am free to answer you in the open without making that worse, so I choose privacy to take the discussion I believe would be involved, all the way, to the mat, belly to belly, till the need has been met.

2. Because it is much, much more practially feasible for me to address a long topic in e-mail with the system tools at hand. I have a lot of these going on right now, and it is much more workable.

3. Because the experience Hardi and I have in this area of struggle includes good stewardship over it, and not shouting into a windstorm of multiple voices with no connection to the person expressing the need.

4. Because responding to your needs requires thought and diligence and a significant commitment of time and resource on our part, and flinging it into the forum does not seem the best way to embody that commitment.

5. Because you deserve personal attention for a personal matter. If it results in things you find appropriate to share in a forum settingm, of course that is your choice.

6. Because we are professionals who conduct ourselves within certain ethical realities and in a preofessional manner.

7. Because we know what we are doing, and because if you want our participation in this kind of assistance that's the way it has to be. There are whole layers, to resonding to this need, that go far beyond any kind of forum relationship. I am inviting you to that relationship.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 08:56 PM

Praise, that is exactly what I did say at the time - i.e. I would come back when ready. I am just coming back to one of my "wound up with God spells" (sometimes I handle it, sometimes I don't but the fact remains that nothing has changed and it is just a case of handle it, handle it, handle it... The only other fact is things got worse in 13 years I prayed to Christ and I thought I would voice it here and would love to hear public opinions of why this should be from Christians- come on why and what do I do to change it.

If the stuff works, why should it take private emails to answer?

Jon


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: bbelle
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 08:03 PM

Hey, Jon, you've got some serious conversation going on here. Keep it up if it's cathartic for you and don't be embarrassed to get down and dirty with your emotions. There are some wonderful ears trained your way ...'spaw, kat, praise, jeri, flattop, sean, and I hope I've learned from them enough to be a good listener to. And, BTW, Jon, I can say this from experience.

So, babble ~:} on my friend ...

jenny


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 06:57 PM

Jon, I did not say what you seem to think I did.

Hardi and I have always been here to help you explore all of what you have raised, and more. We stopped hearing from you. You indicated you would be in touch when ready. We did not stop caring, praying, or thinking about you.

As you know, we have experience in the areas you are struggling with. We are still available.

~Susan

motormice@hotmail.com


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: flattop
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 06:23 PM

Jon,

Did you at least, like the priest in Bergman's movie, find a deep understanding of the bit in the bible about, 'My God, why has thou forsaken me?'

You raised a lot of issues in your message - too many to deal with at one time. You seem to be postulating that praying to God is harmful. If you are leaning towards scientific proof, your personal anecdotal evidence doesn't count. God knows, your life might have been worse if you hadn't prayed.

To prove scientifically that prayer is ineffectual, you would have to set up blind tests. You could have one group of two hundred people praying for six months. Another group could take harmless kat worm capsules as a placebo. Still another group could sing only John Prine's Late John Garfield Blues for the whole six months. Then you could look at whose life was most improved or most devastated. I wonder which group would come out ahead.

Did you go away to a school for boys at 7 or 8? George Orwell did and he started wetting the bed. Perhaps it's a British boys' school tradition. You might be in good company on that one. Churchill wouldn't have boasted about it, of course, but Orwell was an honest enough writer to mention it. Even if it was just you and Orwell, you can be proud of being in good company.

And yes, sometimes we have to work ourselves up into a paranoid frenzy to talk to women. At other times they seem almost human. Could it be us and not them? Then they convince us that we have cardboard brains. Ah, just crank up the stereo and let Christie McVie sing the prettiest Songbird, let Christina Smith and Jean Hewson sing so lonesome that we all could cry.

david


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 06:10 PM

Jon, focusing on the good things in your life, as Kat was mentioning can really help.
I tend to only focus on the good and I have a feeling this has been my saving grace.
If I were to internalize all the horrible things that have happened to me in my life time, I would probably feel forgotten by God.
But I don't feel forgotten. I feel God within every pore of my being. That is because I appreciate what I have and the loving kindness all around me.
I also give thanks for all the lessons I find within everything I experince.
That to me is living with God.

Bonnie


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 06:10 PM

Jon, I meant to say, but forgot, a lot of what I posted about positive thinking etc. I learned from Unity School of Christianity.

The giving thanks in advance bit I learned more from First Nations medicine people. There are different types of Christianity. If you are interested in learning more about Unity, which is worldwide, please PM me and I will get you some info. My sister is a minister of one of their churches and also was a telephone prayer room worker at "Silent Unity," which is completely free and without obligation, receives millions of calls from all over the world every year.

Good luck in sorting it out.


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 06:03 PM

Jo, I personally don't care what you believe or don't, just so its workin' for you. What I believe is that you're a helluva' good guy and I'm glad I know you. I guess I tend to believe in people.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 05:34 PM

Cheers Jeri and kat, I will think on it but I doubt if I will end up moving from Christainity even though I hate what it has done to me - I wish I could but it seems to one of lifes traps and one I wish I was out of.

As well of thinking about your words, I will think of the one who we (Christians) are all remined of who apparently got his time of suffering over in a couple of days, and went through in it agreement that it was going to happen and in certain knowledge that he would rise again. Sorry to preach here but I for one, would have rather had the tr ial and the time on the cross than years of torment... Sorry cancer victims, etc, your suffering was never as great as his.

Jon


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: Jeri
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 05:18 PM

Re #2, perhaps faith is a better word than belief. As in walking on water. (Actually the first and second things should have been in the same paragraph. I didn't intend to separate them like that.) On a non-religious level, the power of suggestion is a very strong force. If I'm afraid I'm going to forget the lyrics of a song, I'll do it. I don't have to make a decision to do the thing that frightens me - all I have to do is think about it.

You never said you actually did anything. All you said was "...even agreement in my own mind that I would be better off praying to the devil, did put an end..." You just thought about it.

Having friends may not help you solve anything, but it's something that's gone right in your life, eh? Even if you didn't specifically ask or pray for it?


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 04:48 PM

Jon, first I want to thank you for sharing so much with us. I know it must be painful. I can hear the pain in your words.

In my beliefs, in metaphysics, we do believe there is a Higher Power/God/Goddess/Cosmic, whatever one wants to call it. We also believe, just as most Christians do, that the Entity gave us free will. I am NOT saying you or any of your famiy consciously chose any of the horrendous things you told us about. I am just trying to let you see that we cannot place all responsibility and blame on "God's" shoulders.

I have been through some terrible things including rape, spousal abuse, living with an alcoholic, major health problems, etc. I wasn't very happy about them when they happened, but I knew deep down that there were lessons to be learned. I felt that if I could learn even one thing from an experience it was worth going through.

I hear my brother blame the "Cosmic" for everything. He prays, meditates, etc. He is loved by many, understood by few. He is stuck in a spot of feeling he is the victim and not moving on to what I believe the Universe is just waiting to help him with. I do not believe you are like him, at all, Jon, just using him as an example.

I do not believe the Universe can help us or *give* us anything until we are ready. If we want to bring something into our life, we have to be ready for all of the responsibilities it entails. Sometimes, we even have to make room for it. A simple illustration is giving away clothing we no longer need or use and giving thanks that we are guided to or receive new outfits.

One more thing, and then I will quit: if we pray for things, it focusses on our lack of them. If we give thanks for what we already have and for receiving "this or something better, for the highest good of all concerned," then we are accepting that we already are supplied with what we desire or may need. This also sets up our subconscious, which is like a computer (it believes everything it takes in, in a literal way), to believe that we deserve our Good, that we are receiving our Good, in short, it begins to focus on the positives which can bring about great changes as our perception of our world has changed in a profound manner.

Louise Hay has some really good books out on this, Jon. Before she gets out of bed, she starts giving thanks, for her bed, for the day, for the sunshine, her pets, etc.

Jeri is right, there are a bunch of us on here who are proud to call you friend and care deeply about you. Please Jon, if you can, try to release the past hurts from your life. Let us, and the music you are so brilliant in, fill up those empty spaces which come about from such release.

With respect and love,

kat


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 04:37 PM

Answer to #1, I am not aware that it was a belief of mine, just a reccuring "you've should be praying to the devil" thought at the time. I can come up with 2 viewpoints at this stage, maybe I should have taken the "pray to the devil line". Perhaps everyhing was all the wierd events that happend were caused by my mind. Assuming my mind could do that and I was unaware of its own power and the condition of praying to the devil was something my mind created, I most definately should have prayed to the devil. The other one was sticking to the no, the power is outside and I must stick with God... I wonder why I bothered. The trouble I have with the other possibilites is the sets of coincidences and precise timeimgs I would have to accept (and can provide witness from others too - getting out of touch with reality becomes hard to reason with in those circumstances).

I don't understand your #2/

I know #3 but although I apreciate friends and know I have them, it doesn't really help me solve anything.

Jon


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: Jeri
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 04:18 PM

What are the chances that your belief that such a thing would help actually caused it to help?

Even (perhaps especially) people who are devoutly religious know the power of belief.

Whatever you believe, Jon, believe that people care about you and that you're worthy of it.


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 03:00 PM

Jeri, point of fact, even agreement in my own mind that I would be better off praying to the devil, did put an end to the bed problem, at least for a while (until I decided I was not going that or his way).

Jon


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 02:56 PM

Praise, good for you but:

Why should praying make things worse for me? I had a life before.

What about demonic opression, does it exist or not?

Just to pick on my favourite example why was it that the only time I decided to expose some of the beyond control aspects in my life and used the lack of a female relationship, that one came within less than a week and the 2 I had did not come until I was 36/37 - don't think I'm that bad I guy - more like I was deprived until I got near to fall into exposing what science would call paranoia - why did I not get one before or since?

This whole explosion and has been building up with me for some time and started with the unexplained threads which I managed to stay out of but how about:

Family life went one way until I was around 7 possibly 8. Things turned wierd then.

I grew to hate my father that I loved until then
The family who was a church going family suddenly stopped going
I developed a bed wetting problem and Tim developed some wiered unexplained epelespy that went as strangely as it came
On the odd occasions that my father used to go to communion he couldn't
The "ghost" of my grandmother was seen walking through the house although not by me but all us kids became (independently - we didn't find out the fears of others until we left this house a few years later)
My father ceased being loyal to my mother and started having affairs

All this and more can be timed to within a 1 year spell.

This will sound even dafter but my dad's stroke was preceded by me in a fit of drunkeness accusing him of killing this grandmother. I honestly could not control what I said which was along the lines of he overdosed her with heart tablets that she took (she had glandular fever as a kid and had a weak heart valve) and that caused her a stroke, my dad's was a suspected heart attack which was not - the clot buster did it to him and near kiiled him - not bad 2 days after.

How about my mother announcing a vision of a fight and flashing lights, only turned out to be the day that I fisrt met Jayne's Mike from prison and he beat her...

I can carry on but the frightening fact is that I can provide witnesses to all of the above and more so it can not be put down to my imagination or mental ilness (and I can list more and more co-incidences if anyone wishes them) and that my life has been something like a horror story since 1987.

What I really want is some Christian to come up with a solution but in all this time of me trying, this has not occured. My searches have extended to local priests, Elle Grange, monasteries (although I have difficulties with some of the RC beliefs - maybe some blame myself there), letters to people like Roger Carswell (leading evangelical's in the UK) and web searches talking to people worldwide.

No one has managed to deny that what I has said is untrue and overall, the suggestion has been that there is a Christain answer. The best I have had is "God knows what he is doing and it is OK". I am 13 years on from my first brush with Christ (although I had prayed for somethings earilier) and have already written off some of my desires such as kids.

I feel truely shit on by Christ and I want a why from some Christain that actually explains matters than either the "Oh well.." or "the what an evil person I must be" and gives the real whys and solutions.

I can take no more of it.

Jon


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: Jeri
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 02:33 PM

Jon, I'm butting in here, but what the...
I think most Christians would tell you prayers for things you want would probably not do much. Praying for the strength to get yourself those things would be better. A lot of what happens after that is up to you. (And yep, it's also up to other people, the way the world works and chance.)

I think there are some things I can affect and some I can't - I have to know what I'm capable of and try to do it. We all screw up - we're human. It's what we do with the failures that counts.

From this non-religious person's point of view, (another side heard from) praying to the devil wouldn't have got you any further, but could have resulted in you being in a worse position. It may look like it would have been better, but that's just because it's unknown - the grass is always greener on the path not taken. You'd have given in to thinking evil had power, justifying it, and feeling guilty. You wouldn't have the friends you have now, you wouldn't try to help people or even care about them, and you wouldn't be the kind and humor-filled person I know. Are the things you wanted and didn't get more important than who you are?


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 02:21 PM

Sean, I honestly believe that what looks like nastiness is really just an accumulated frustration over the difficulty of making words wrap around things far too big for words. Frustrating to try to say, and frustrating to try to hear. On top of harms done in the name of something good.

The day I think that isn't so, well OK the weeklong struggle when I conclude that ain't so-- I'm outta here.

I am not an optimist. I persist against discouragement but I am not optimistic.

And I guess that I try to hear good news in what is said, as much as I try to be a sayer of it myself. We do have that choice, although it can be hard work sometimes. But if I look, I can see good news in every post here. Maybe I'm just tired of translating it into terms others can hear, today.

But-- I am here, and where I am, is also prayer and care.

~Susan


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: Sean Belt
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 01:49 PM

Geez Louise!!!

If I were a first timer reading this thread, I'm not sure I'd ever come back! The level of intolerance of others' viewpoints and the sheer nastiness of some of the responses is shameful. I've read this whole thread up to this point and am sickened by most of what I see.

Some of the regulars ('Spaw, Kat, Moonjen, and particularly Praise) seem to have a clue here about civility and friendship. But some of the rest of you are waaaay out of line.

I'm not asking for a universal love fest or anything, but puh-lease! Let's all keep in mind that we kinda like each other and that our religions or lack thereof are what makes us the people we all like. Or something like that.

I'm really hoping that this streak of nastiness that's been surfacing in the Mudcat for the last little while is the exception and not the rule, but I'm beginning to have my doubts.

No flames, please, but feel free to PM me if you've a burning desire to discuss this further.

- Sean


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 01:21 PM

Well, pesronally, I am sick of Christianity. When I first started praying for help over one thing, I had a job and some form of life. The prayers to Christ were rewarded by thoughts like "Well if you want a girlfriend you must pray to the devil" (not Jayne who I mentioned, this was in about 1987, a subsequent trip to a mental hospital and the label schizophrenia, then no job, then alcholosim, then got knows what including going through exorcisms as it was felt strongly that there was Demonic oppression going on (which I still suspect is the truth).

I watch myself go further and further down hill and continue to ask for help and get denyied by Christ. I honestly am at the point where I believe I should have prayed to the devil all those years ago.

I do believe there is a God and that Christ was his son but since me making the effort to try to find him and pray for help I have been shit on by them.

Take my advice, find a decent God - not this one! Jon


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: GospelPicker (inactive)
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 01:00 PM

NO, MOONJEN, i DO NOT THINK THAT FREE SPEECH IS NONSENSE... I simply meant that in the struggle to keep free speech alive, we have to deal with the dreck who hide behind "free speech" in an attempt to push hatred and smut on decent people.

GP


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 12:40 PM

Sorry, paste did not work, above.

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=26400&messages=24


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Subject: RE: BS: I ABSOLUTELY GIVE A D***
From: wysiwyg
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 11:59 AM

This thread is current now, and I think related. It also has links to others related, including the one referenced above.

~Susan


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