Help: Who was Lord Gregory?

Subject: Who was Lord Gregory?
From: GUEST,Bolla
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 08:50 PM

Anyone know the history of the man, the song? I'm most interested in the Irish derivatives though any info is great thanks.

Subject: RE: Help: Who was Lord Gregory?
From: Abby Sale
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 09:36 PM

This is Child Ballad #76 (The Lass of Roch Royal). It was first published by Herd in 1776. I've never seen any historical references but would be interested myself. There be doesn't seem to be any 'Roch Royal' but it's been suggested that it may relate to a Rough Castle near Falkirk and a Loch Ryan in south-west Scotland. Another common placename in other versions is 'Capoquin.'

Sorry - that's about it. If you learn any more please post back here. It's a very good song.

Subject: RE: Help: Who was Lord Gregory?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 10:02 PM

As Abby says, the earliest printed copy of this ballad (Child's No. #76) appeared in Herd's Scottish Songs in 1776, entitled "The Bonny Lass of Lochroyan, or Lochroyen".  There was, however, a manuscript copy from earlier in the 18th century ("Fair Isabell of Rochroyall") which Child gives as version A in The English and Scottish Popular Ballads (part IV, 1886).  The Irish versions are later.  In the 11 versions Child quotes, the man is named as "Love Gregory" (in five) "Lord Gregory"(in three) "Love Gregor" (one) "Lord Gregorie" (one) and plain "Gregory" (one; the only Irish variant Child had).  So far as history goes; there is, to the best of my knowledge, no historical basis at all for this song.  Others, of course, may know differently.

See also:

At  The Traditional Ballad Index,  The Lass of Roch Royal

At  Bodleian Library Broadside Ballads,  The lass of Ocram  Broadside printed between 1819 and 1844 by J. Pitts of 6, Great Saint Andrew Street, Seven Dials, London.

If you use the "Digitrad and Forum Search" box on the main Forum page to look for lord gregory, you'll find 3 versions in the database and several past discussions on the subject.

Malcolm

Subject: RE: Help: Who was Lord Gregory?
From: GUEST,CraigS
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 10:13 PM

Just to add to the confusion - in Border ballads of this kind/period almost anyone who had a keep to live in was referred to in song as a lord - a sort of "courtesy title". There are still properties in the British Isles, ownership of which entitles the owner to be called Lord of Whatever the name of the house is, etc. The point is that in many cases only careful research of the history of a ballad will produce the right answers.

Subject: RE: Help: Who was Lord Gregory?
From: GUEST,Phil Cooper
Date: 17 Oct 00 - 10:20 PM

From a psychological aspect, as opposed to historic, Lord Gregory's mother was a piece of work. She seemed to have an ability to zero in on a bad situation and say the one thing that could make it worse.

Subject: RE: Help: Who was Lord Gregory?
From: GUEST,Bolla
Date: 18 Oct 00 - 06:29 PM

Thanks to everyone for their help so far. I checked all previous mudcat discussions on the topic but they concentrate more on the song than the man. It's a song that Bess Cronin used to sing and one version has references to Cappoquin, which is the mame of a town in Co. Waterford, Ireland. Interestingly, it is well known in the area. I am going to research further. Thanks again to all, Bolla

Subject: RE: Help: Who was Lord Gregory?
From: GUEST,Annraoi
Date: 19 Oct 00 - 04:07 PM

I learned a version of this from Séamas Ennis many many years ago. I never heard anyone else sing it and gradually over the years I forgot all but a couple of verses. The version Bess Cronin sings on the lately published CD set is the very one I got from S.E. I wonder did S.E. learn it from Bess Cronin? If John Moulden is lurking out there, he may have something to add.
Annraoi

Subject: RE: Help: Who was Lord Gregory?
From: GUEST,Barry Finn
Date: 19 Oct 00 - 04:16 PM

Joe Heaney used to do a lovely version of this, I think Dan Milner has his version from Joe, maybe Dan will do it during his workshop at the Getaway? I wouldn't mind hearing Dan do it, Dan are you listening? Barry

Subject: RE: Help: Who was Lord Gregory?
From: GUEST,bolla
Date: 19 Oct 00 - 06:05 PM

Annraoí, It would not surprise me in the slightest if Seamus Ennis did learn the song from Bess Cronin, such was the amount of material he collected from her. She was held in highest of regard by him and was, and still is, very associated with the song. le dea ghuí, BOLLA

Subject: RE: Help: Who was Lord Gregory?
From:
Date: 20 Oct 00 - 05:41 AM

At the risk of being branded a non-folkie, I really like the version Judy Collins did accompanied by a 'cello in the 60s.

Murray

Subject: RE: Help: Who was Lord Gregory?
From: Abby Sale
Date: 20 Oct 00 - 06:12 PM

Had a look in Greig~Duncan just to see as this is certainly the "latest word" of the great British ballad collections. It does not hint at any historical connection either. I tthink that can be taken as definitive.

Subject: RE: Help: Who was Lord Gregory?
From: Abby Sale
Date: 20 Oct 00 - 06:12 PM

Had a look in Greig~Duncan just to see as this is certainly the "latest word" of the great British ballad collections. It does not hint at any historical connection either. I tthink that can be taken as definitive.

Subject: RE: Help: Who was Lord Gregory?
From: JTT
Date: 20 Oct 00 - 06:24 PM

Nora Ni Ghriallais has a brilliant version on her eponymous album.