Help: The Foggy Dew: 'Valera true'?

Subject: RE: Foggy Dew 1916
From: MartinRyan
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 10:58 AM

Just to tidy up a little: that's Cathal O'Boyle.

Regards

p.s.
I have seen the song attributed to "P.O'Neill" i.e. the nom-de-guerre often used by the IRA. It's as well to get these things right!

Subject: RE: Foggy Dew 1916
From: Gulliver
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 10:47 AM

Amos, yes, that's quite a seamless transition, isn't it? It says something about time...

Read more about Carl Hardebeck here

And I never cease to be amazed at what can be found on the WWW...

Don

Subject: RE: Foggy Dew 1916
From: Gulliver
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 10:37 AM

Yes, Guest, Jay, that's correct about 1949.

As regards the author, I found this on the web:
In Songs of the County Down, by Cathal O'Doyle, the author is given as Canon Charles O'Neill, a parish priest of Kilcoo and later Newcastle. "In 1919 he went to Dublin and attended a sitting of the first Dáil Éireann (Irish Parliament). He was moved by the number of members whose names were answered during roll call by "faoi ghlas ag na Gaill" (locked up by foreigners) and resolved to write a song in commemoration of the Easter Rebellion".

The music is from a manuscript that was in possession of Kathleen Dallat of Ballycastle. That manuscript gives Carl Hardebeck as the arranger. It was recorded in 1913 by John McCormack. (from www.cormacbreatnach.com/the_foggy_dew_2006.asp I presume the piece recorded by McCormack was the manuscript music)

We play it occasionally at sessions. I like the song (though both my grandfathers were in the British army at that time and several of their cousins were killed close to Suvla Bay).

Don

Subject: RE: Foggy Dew 1916
From: GUEST,jay
Date: 26 Feb 08 - 09:29 AM

Just a small point. Dev didn't lead Ireland out of the commonwealth -John A Costello did in 1949 . DeValera thought that if Ireland left the commonwealth unilaterally ,it would damage relations with northern unionists and stall Irish reunification. That is what did happen . After Costello made his announcement ,the British government passed a bill making unification subject to unionist consent.
I believe The Foggy Dew lyrics was written by a catholic priest . It certainly gets very mystical at some point , going on about seven tongues of flame shining over the lines of steel . There's an interesting thread about the English foggy foggy dew song elsewhere on mudcat . The tunes are different aren't they?

Subject: RE: Foggy Dew 1916
From: Gulliver
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 11:47 AM

Firstly, when De Valera gave up the fight against the Free State government and decided to enter constitutional politics (1926) he was abandoning his old Republican principles. He had to take the oath to the King of England and recognise Ireland's Dominion status with the British Empire (as against asserting that Ireland was an independent republic), among other things. When De Valera was successful at the polls and formed a government around 1931 the Republican hard-liners (his ex-comrades) continued their fight "for the Republic" in the form of Sinn Fein and the IRA--which declared their allegiance to the First Dáil (of 1919, I think).

The IRA was declared an illegal organisation, members were imprisoned during the 1930's and during and after WW2 they were interned for several years. Several IRA members were executed for various offences involving guns and bombs during this period.

Hard-line Republicans like Dominic Behan considered De Valera a traitor for giving up the fight back in the 20's, especially in the light of so many of his own ex-comrades having been executed, sometimes in a brutal manner, by the Free Staters, and then turning against his ex-comrades in the 30's and 40's. Dominic's brother Brendan was imprisoned twice (once in England and later in Dublin) for his Republican activities.   

Don

Subject: RE: Foggy Dew 1916
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 25 Feb 08 - 02:47 AM

I have no motive in asking but why did Dominic Behan castigate De Valera in his song ' The Patriot Game ' ie.
And Still De Valera is greatly to blame,
For shirking his part in the patriot game.

eric

Subject: RE: Foggy Dew 1916
From: Nerd
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 11:43 PM

Relevant, except that McGrath already contributed the same information 7 1/2 years ago...markh must've missed it!

Subject: RE: Foggy Dew 1916
From: Amos
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 09:55 PM

Amazing and wonderful -- eight years of silence on this important thread, and a sudden update, completely relevant if minor, out of the blue. You have to love it.


A

Subject: RE: Foggy Dew 1916
From: GUEST,markh
Date: 24 Feb 08 - 09:27 PM

Pronunciation: Cathal - you leave out the T, and the a's make more a short "oh" sound, I have it from someone with that name.

Subject: RE: Help: Additional Information on 'Foggy Dew'
From: GUEST,Fretless
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 04:50 PM

Master, You don't say when the paper is due. If you have time for some fiction that is set in the years of the Easter uprising and incorporates that event as a central episode of the story, read Roddy Doyle's A Star Called Henry. A very different evocation from the one provided by the song.

Subject: RE: Help: Additional Information on 'Foggy Dew'
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 28 Mar 01 - 01:42 PM

Master, I've read many of the links, but would love to see a concise summary of the historical facts. One that tied the song lyrics in would be even better. I'll watch for your essay here.

Subject: RE: Help: Additional Information on 'Foggy Dew'
From: GUEST,The Celtic Bard
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 07:59 PM

Ced2, thank you for including that missing verse. The version of the song that I have on CD includes that one but I could never finding it. Even listening closely to the lyrics of the song, I still couldn't understand some of the words. Again, thank you.

Rebecca <><

Subject: RE: Help: Additional Information on 'Foggy Dew'
From: Amergin
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 05:21 PM

Tim Pat Coogan has written a wonderful book on this subject.....though for the life of me I cannot seem to remember the name......

Subject: RE: Help: Additional Information on 'Foggy Dew'
From: gnu
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 05:15 PM

I could go on about the Easter Rebellion... oh yeah, have you searched for "The Easter Rebellion" ?.... but I don't type very fast or accuately, so it would take quite a bit of time and I am sure I might repeat much of the material you already have. Soooooo, is your essay lengthy at present ? IE, would it take up too much space to submit it here so that we can add to it ? It's difficult to know what's not necessary.

gnu

Subject: RE: Help: Additional Information on 'Foggy Dew'
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 03:29 PM

Hi Master, you might find this info at Lesley Nelson's site helpful, especially the historical links she lists. The Foggy Dew [http://www.contemplator.com/folk4/fogydew.html]

I see you found the Mudcat discussions on the song and lyrics, but did you see all the hits when you put "foggy dew" (without the quotes) in the search box?

I'm also interested in hearing more. One of our members sings for us on PalTalk and says her father used to sing that one. I would love to hear her sing it because she has a gorgeous voice trained in the Irish folk style of singing. (Noreen!) This song is so hauntingly beautiful!

Subject: RE: Help: Additional Information on 'Foggy Dew'
From: GUEST,ced2
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 03:27 PM

As I suspected it is the cleaned up version that is in the database. Verse 3 is missing. That goes as follows:-

"The night gell black and the rifle's crack made perfidious albion reel, Midst the lead and hail seven tongues of flame shone out o're their lines of steel, By shining blade a prayer was said that to Ireland her sons would be true, And when morning broke sure the war flag shook out its folds o're the foggy dew."

Also in the penultimate verse there is a reference to Velera, this should be de Velera. An alternative given his complicity (as some would argue, and not without some reason) with the British in the years after partition was to sing of those who fought with Cathel Brew.

The refence to "long range guns" was to do with the British use of gun boats (destroyer?) to assist in quelling the uprising.

England's difficulty is Ireland's opportunity

Subject: RE: Help: Additional Information on 'Foggy Dew'
From: gnu
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 03:10 PM

Reference is made to Suvla and Sud el Bar. The following links will take you to some decriptions of WWI battles which may be of interest. Also, you may wish to check the lyrics of "And the Band Played Waltzing Matilda" for the Suvla Bay reference.

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWchronology.htm

http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/FWWgallipoli.htm

Subject: Additional Information on 'Foggy Dew'
From: GUEST,Master of Desaster
Date: 27 Mar 01 - 02:38 PM

Hello!

I have a big problem: I have to write an essay on the Folk Song "The Foggy Dew" (Version: 'twas down the glen one easter morn.....) and I'm searching for additional information on it. What I have to do exactly is to write an interpretation on this song, for example about the historical background of the song, variations of the lyrics etc. I already read this discussion on mudcat cafe:

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=3275

and

http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=27029

but the information is not as much as I do need! If anyone feels that he can give me support or already has an essay about this topic, I would appreciate if he will help me!

Regards, Master of Desaster

For direct contact e-mail: [e-mail]

Subject: RE: Foggy Dew 1916
From: Fiolar
Date: 02 Nov 00 - 01:13 PM

By the way the Irish group "The Wolfe Tones" made a recording of "Michael Collins." Worth listening to.Also Brendan O'Reilly made a recording called the "The Ballad of Michael Collins." A great song and worth tracking down. It contains the line "And Ireland lost her laughing boy, at the age of 32." I can post the words if any one is interested. M

repetitive posts/disclaimer deleted by JoeClone

Subject: RE: Foggy Dew 1916
From: Jimmy C
Date: 02 Nov 00 - 11:15 AM

Big Mick,

You're welcome, check out the thread "Michael" by Johnny Mc Evoy, you'll enjoy it.

slan.

Subject: RE: Foggy Dew 1916
From: Big Mick
Date: 01 Nov 00 - 08:20 PM

That quote from Collins exactly describes the feelings I was trying to describe with the Elder in the Vietnam songs thread. Thanks for sharing it.

Mick

Subject: RE: Foggy Dew 1916
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 01 Nov 00 - 06:09 PM

Or you have to be into folk music. Traditional folk music...

Subject: RE: Foggy Dew 1916
From: Jimmy C
Date: 31 Oct 00 - 10:39 PM

McGrath, You are right of course, both Mick and Dev would have been in and out of favour a few times I would imagine. Just look what happened to Churchill, the english dumped him in one election. It may have been even more so in Ireland, as you know - "with two Irishmen you have three opinions"

I believe the quote from Collins was something like

" I am much more at ease in the company of old people in the dark than I am with young people in the light"

In the video "Hang out your brightest colours" Grifiths said that you may have to be a Celt to understand that quote.

Subject: RE: Foggy Dew 1916
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Oct 00 - 04:56 PM

If Mick Collins hadn't been shot, and Dev had, maybe today they'd be reviling Mick and praising Dev to the heights.

?

Both men did what they felt was right. And that's more than you can say of a lot of others.

But there's a great quote from Michael Collins in Kenneth Griffiths' documentary about how he preferred to sit in the dark with old man telling stories than out in the sunlight with other youing men. If anyonme has the words right, let's have them here. I feel they might be very apposite here sometimes

Subject: RE: Foggy Dew 1916
From: Amergin
Date: 31 Oct 00 - 10:32 AM

Sorry, you're right.....had just got home from work....and was exhausted....damn headupmyass disease again....

Subject: RE: Foggy Dew 1916
From: balladeer
Date: 31 Oct 00 - 06:58 AM

Kara: Thanks for the suggestion. Amergin: Turn Turn Turn is quite a different melody from The Foggy Dew, but thanks for taking the time to comment.

Subject: RE: Foggy Dew 1916
From: Amergin
Date: 31 Oct 00 - 04:32 AM

Balladeer, the song is called "Turn, Turn, Turn". It is based on the Book of Ecclesiast (sp?)....The rock group the Byrds made it "famous"...

Amergin

Subject: RE: Foggy Dew 1916
From: balladeer
Date: 30 Oct 00 - 11:36 PM

Rick: I don't know the Seeger song. I'll look forward to hearing you sing it.

Subject: RE: Foggy Dew 1916
From: Kara
Date: 30 Oct 00 - 05:00 PM

I gave up singing all politicallt incorrect songs for a while, but life got rather uninteresting, I sing "fought with valour true"
Kara

Subject: RE: Foggy Dew 1916
From: Jimmy C
Date: 30 Oct 00 - 03:29 PM

You said it all !

Slan

Subject: RE: Foggy Dew 1916
From: Fiolar
Date: 30 Oct 00 - 01:23 PM

To JimmyC - thanks for the words. To others I grew up in Ireland and I often wonder if Michael Collins had lived how different life might have been. One thing for sure I nor the hundreds of thousands like me would never had to cross the sea to "Sean Bui." The dead hand of Dev was too long and too often on the tiller of Irish affairs. I can do no better than quote from Michael Collins' own words about his vision of a free Ireland. "The Irish people have a large amount of capital invested abroad. With scope for our energies, with restoration of confidence, the inevitable tendancy will be towards the return of this capital to Ireland. It will then flow in its proper channel. It will be for opening new and promising fields in this country. Ireland will provide splendid opportunities for the investment of Irish capital, and it is for the people of Irelandto take advantage of these opportunities."

I sometimes feel that Michael should have left Dev to languish in Lincoln Prison instead of rescuing him. Imagine that Ireland might have been the "Celtic Tiger" of the 1920s and 30s instead of waiting nearly 75 years. M.

Subject: RE: Foggy Dew 1916
From: Jimmy C
Date: 30 Oct 00 - 08:35 AM

JTT -

Thanks for the info on Dalton. It left a bad taste in my mouth when I read it in " On The Arm of Time". The Irish Freedom movement throughout the years always fell prey to informers and traitors, I would hate to think that Mick Collins was a victim of one as well.

Slan

Subject: RE: Foggy Dew 1916
From: JTT
Date: 30 Oct 00 - 05:28 AM

The cruel libel on Emmet Dalton has been disproved since last year, when a documentary on Irish TV interviewed members of the original Republican flying column that ambushed the Collins car. They definitely said that they had shot Michael Collins.

For anyone who's interested, here's a link to the debate on the Treaty in the Dail; it may be noted that many of the anti-Treaty speakers died in the Civil War.

www.ucc.ie/celt/online/E900003.001

Eamon de Valera is regarded with mixed feelings in Ireland; he led Ireland for many years, and led it from Commonwealth subject to Free State to Republic by devious and cunning politicking; on the other hand he presided over a regime of summary executions of many of his ex-comrades.

Subject: RE: Foggy Dew 1916
From: Jimmy C
Date: 29 Oct 00 - 11:31 PM

Fiolar,

The words of "The Foggy Dew" are below, they are also in the D.T. It is noted there that it is Irish but I recall something that happened to me that makes me think it is in fact an English song. One night years ago at a St Patrick's Night gig in a very posh exclusive club we were asked to sing "The Foggy Dew". of course we sang the Irish Revolutionary song, Some of the audience got a little upset and told us the song they wanted was different and one of them (a man in his eighties) sang it for us. That was the first time I ever heard of another Foggy Dew. He said it was popular years ago in the British Army ?. Later on I did read somewhere that it was an old English folksong. Gotta know your audience with these types of songs. It helps to know the group also ?

The Foggy Dew

Over the hills I went one day,
a lovely maid I spied
With her coal black hair and her mantle so green.
An image to perceive.
Said I, "My Dear, will you be my bride
And she raised her eyes of blue
She smiled and said, "Young man I'm to wed
I'm to meet him in the foggy dew."

Over the hills I went one morn,
a-singing I did go.
And I met this maid with her coal-black hair,
And she answered soft and low
"Young man" she said "I'll be your bride",
If I know that you'll be true
. And in my arms, all of her charms
Were casted in the foggy dew.

Subject: RE: Foggy Dew 1916
From: Amergin
Date: 29 Oct 00 - 09:27 PM

I agree that Tim Pat Coogan is a very good historian...I have read 3 of his books now....both the Collins and DeValera books and his history of the IRA, but if I remember correctly about his description of Collins' assassination, those who attacked didn't know until later that it was Collins who died.

Amergin

P.S. Re: Coogan's objectivity:

It seemed to me that he deeply admires Collins, while Eamonn DeValera doesn't seem to hold that high in his esteem...

Subject: RE: Foggy Dew 1916
From: Jimmy C
Date: 29 Oct 00 - 09:22 PM

Fiolar,

The Foggy Foggy Dew" and "The Foggy Dew" are 2 different songs. I know of both of them. The Foggy Foggy Dew starts " I am a bachelor and I live all alone" and I work at the weavers trade" the second one "The Foggy Dew" is indeed English, I don't have the the begining in my head at the moment but the last line goes " And I left her in the Foggy Dew" It is the same air as the one about 1916, but usually played a little slower. I will resurrect it and post the words. Thanks for listing the other books , I will be on the trail of them tomorrow,

Balladeer - When I do sing the song I sing " Fought with Valera True" not too. These are the words my father sang and I am sure they are pretty accurate.

BTW - guest Colwyn Dane is correct - it was Costello - my mistake.

Subject: RE: Foggy Dew 1916
From: paddymac
Date: 29 Oct 00 - 09:08 PM

Balladeer - be sure to watch the Griffith video on Collins. It includes interviews with several mane who fought in the Rising and the Civil War. They were well on in years when the interviews were made, but their memories are powerful and emotive stuff. If you really want to know how they felt, methinks you'll find no better source.

Subject: RE: Foggy Dew 1916
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 29 Oct 00 - 08:54 PM

Got your joke Don. Good 'un.

Baladeer, ever here Pete Seeger's words to that gorgeous tune? Quite lovely.

Rick

Subject: RE: Foggy Dew 1916
From: balladeer
Date: 29 Oct 00 - 06:56 PM

I'm very grateful to all of you who took the trouble to volunteer so much thought, information, and feeling on a painful and complex series of events.

To Boggy: I am neither young nor overly naive about the world in general, but I surely do not know much about the workings of the Mudcat Cafe. I am under the impression that this forum was created to handle such questions as mine. Whether that's true or not, I'm glad I asked.

I have sung The Foggy Dew all my adult life. I sing it because the tune is beautiful and the words poetic. I sing it because it is a powerful eulogy to a brave group of soldiers. I sing it because just reading it makes me cry. Now that I'm thinking about recording it, I want to be sure I have grasped the facts. That includes getting some sense of how people who are alive now view those facts. Thanks so much for helping me with that.

Subject: RE: Foggy Dew 1916
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Oct 00 - 06:37 PM

Anyway, if you sing it as "fought with Devalera too" there's no reason for anyone to get offended. Noone can deny that he was a commander in 1916, and a fierce fighter.

(Anyway, for those of a pedantic and legalistic mind, "fighting with" someone includes fighting against them, so you could argue it's ambiguous. Well, you could...)

Subject: RE: Foggy Dew 1916
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Oct 00 - 03:36 PM

Pronunciation: Cathal - you leave out the T, and make the a's short, that's more or less right - and Brugha is pronounced the same way as the English name, Brewer.

It's all very complicated with Dev. My father, who was in a flying column at the time, on the Republican side, admired both Devalera and Michael Collins. He used to say Collins was shot because he was coming over to the Republican side. The relevance of that isn't whether it was true or not, it's in the fact that that was how a young Irregular at the time fighting against the Staters in South Tipperary saw it.

Whatever Dev did that can be criticised, he wasn't a traitor any more than any other rebel who in face of realities has had to accept less than what they'd have hoped for. "For everything there is a Time..."

And now is the time for making peace.

Subject: RE: Foggy Dew 1916
From: DonMeixner
Date: 29 Oct 00 - 01:44 PM

See Balladeer, All this great history and discussion and we avoided a Cathal Brugha Ha Ha.

Don

Subject: RE: Foggy Dew 1916
From: GUEST,Colwyn Dane
Date: 29 Oct 00 - 01:23 PM

G'day,

Re De Valera:

It was John A Costello who, as Taoiseach (1948-51), implemented the Republic of Ireland Act (1948),in April 1949.
De Valera was leader of the opposition then.

Good reading about the 'Welsh Wizard' and the Treaty negotiations is to be found in the diaries of T. Jones, the Cabinet Secretary, and like Lloyd George a Welsh speaker.

Bcnu.

Subject: RE: Foggy Dew 1916
From: The-Siren-Poet
Date: 29 Oct 00 - 12:43 PM

Subject: RE: Foggy Dew 1916
From: balladeer
Date: 29 Oct 00 - 12:39 PM

Hi, everyone: Sorry about the other thread. It took a while for this one to show up. I assumed I had not "done it right" and started another. How do you pronounce Cathal Brugha?

Subject: RE: Foggy Dew 1916
From: Fiolar
Date: 29 Oct 00 - 05:53 AM

The video by Kenneth Griffith dealing with Michael Collins was entitled "Hang out your Brightest Colours" which was apparently taken from a quote by George Bernard Shaw in a letter to Michael's sister after his death. Shaw was trying to comfort the grieving relatives by saying that Michael died a hero's death and how much better that was than if he had died wheezing in bed an old worn out man. Yes - the programme was finally shown some 25 years after it was made. Griffith is still a powerful voice in television and his most recent programme was one about the Boer War. He has also done a programme about another grear Nationalist - Roger Casement.

In regard to the question about The Foggy Dew" having an English origin, it hasn't. The English song is called "The Foggy, Foggy Dew" and has a different theme and air.

You will be spoilt for choice about works on Michael Collins both in books and video. Try and get hold of a video called "The Treaty" which deals in detail with the negotiations. One of the best features of it is that the producers did their best to get actors who were near as dammit the images of the main people. Brendan Gleeson who plays Michael Collins is more like the real Collins than Liam Neeson. Film fans will recognise the name as the actor who played the real life villian Martin Cahill in "The General." Try also and get the book entitled "Michael Collins - The Man who Won the War" by T.Ryle Dwyer. ISBN 0-85342-931-6. Good luck M

Subject: RE: Foggy Dew 1916
From: Big Mick
Date: 29 Oct 00 - 01:45 AM

See what I mean, Balladeer. Nothing to be afraid of. I will be in the hunt for this book and the videos on Monday. Thanks, Jimmy, for setting me straight. And to you, PaddyMac, for the video data. I can always count on you for great insight in these areas. I am itchy with excitement at new reading material on the Big Fella.

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: The Foggy Dew -- 1916 version
From: GUEST,Mickey191
Date: 29 Oct 00 - 01:21 AM

Michael Collins & Cathal Brugha organized the Irish REpublican Army which set in motion the 1916 rebellion.

Subject: The Foggy Dew -- 1916 version
From: balladeer
Date: 29 Oct 00 - 12:58 AM

I know that many people get upset with the phrase "fought with Valera true" because they consider him a traitor. I have read that alternatively, "fought with cathal brougha" can be used, but I have no idea what it means or how it sounds or why it's better. Can anyone help?

Subject: RE: Foggy Dew 1916
From: Jimmy C
Date: 29 Oct 00 - 12:30 AM

Paddymac, I believe the videos were by Kenneth Griffiths,? are they the ones you are referring to ?. He is a welshman (an actor I believe), he co-authored " A Curious Journey", and his works were supressed by British Television for a while. I don't know if they have ever been shown over there. I did see one of his, here in Canada on the life of Collins but can't recall the title because I only caught the last 60% of the Program.I will try the nearest video store, now that I have some idea of the title, as you say maybe they will have them catalogued and may be able to order them. Thanks

Subject: RE: Foggy Dew 1916
From: paddymac
Date: 29 Oct 00 - 12:05 AM

The "Welsh Wizard" (or lizard as I've heard some say) was an experienced politician with a pocket-full of aces. The partition issue was effectively "settled" from the British perspective quite some time before the negotiations started. De Valera is thought to have been well aware of that fact, but hard evidence seems to be in short supply. When the "plenipotentiaries" got to London, one of Lloyd George's first "tricks" was to get Arthur Griffith aside privately and persuade him to buy into the idea of a "temporary partition", and keep it a secret from the others. Griffith is conidered by many to have been an honest and well-meaning negotiator, but simply gullible and not up to the task of dealing with the "Welsh Wizard". There are two videoa available wich deal with the treaty tale and Collin's death. Both were made by a Welshman (whose name escapes me at the moment) and were supressed by the British Govt. for 25 years. The one about Collins is called "Hang out your brightest and best", or something very close to that. Any competent video store can find that one in the industry catalogue, and from that, the other one about the treaty. They are very well done and well worth acquiring for your personal collection if you are truly interested in the subject area.

Subject: RE: Foggy Dew 1916
From: Jimmy C
Date: 28 Oct 00 - 11:51 PM

Mick, I have nothing against Coogan at all, sorry If I gave that impression, I like to read different opinions to try and get a clearer picture. I am still undecided after reading many books on Collins, who I consider one of the greatest Irishmen of all time but The truth of what happened that day at Bealnablath has never been fully disclosed. With the passing of time more and more records are being made available for study and this is where many researchers are going to get details of this period. I was surprised and upset to say the least when (according to O'Cuinneagain) that it may have been Emmet Dalton who fired the shot that killed Collins. Dalton was in the front seat with Collins on the trip through Cork and was the first to reach him after he was shot, he also implies that Dalton may have been in the employ of the British from the start. The loyalty of Kevin Higgins and Tim Healy also comes under close scrutiny in the book. I dont believe this mystery will ever be solved, maybe as more and more records are made public, the truth may shine through. Believe me, I have the greatest rspect for Coogan.

By the way - the book was first published by the author in August 1992 and printed by Ronan Press.

Published by Michael O' Cuinneagain - Tanatallon, Donegal Town. Ireland.

Slan

Subject: RE: Foggy Dew 1916
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Oct 00 - 10:58 PM

JimmyC, what is it about Coogan's work that you find less than objective? I am not asking for any reason other than curiosity and you need not fear any kind of big brouhagh from me. I have always found him to be a pretty fair observer, and always a far above average researcher. And I am going to look for the O'Cuinneagain book on Monday. Thanks for pointing me towards it.

Mick

Subject: RE: Foggy Dew 1916
From: Jimmy C
Date: 28 Oct 00 - 10:48 PM

I agree with Rick regarding singing songs of this ilk, be sure of your wherabouts, if in doubt sing something else. I once played in a group caled " The Foggy Dew" but we did not sing this song or any other like it for fear of causing grief, there are hundreds of great songs around, better to stay clear of political ones unless your are sure of the audience. BTW, the original Foggy Dew is an English love song ?.

Also if you do get to read the books by Tim Pat Coogan as suggested by Big Mike and Fiolar, try also to get your hands on one by Michael o Cuinneagain titled " On The Arm Of Time" for a more balanced look at this period in Irish history. There is lots of evidence to show that De Valera and Collins were always very good friends even to the last, There is also evidence that Collins may have been blackmailed by Llyod George and Churchill to accept the terms of the treaty for fear of blackmail, as it was rumoured that Collins had an affair with an English socialite and may have fathered a son by her. There is also evidence that both Collins and De Valera may have been having meetings with British agents believing all the time that they were republicans and also that it may have been one of Collins's closest friends, (who in reality was a Secret British Agent) that fired the shot that killed him, This evidence is cicumstantial but O'Cuinneagain goes into such detail, and quotes so many sources that it raises genuine questions about the historical facts of that time. Again don;t be afraid to ask, someone will always answer.

Good luck

Subject: RE: Foggy Dew 1916
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 28 Oct 00 - 04:03 PM

Hey, our buddy Balladeer ain't no beginner, but she may well be unaware that "sparks can fly" when the background stories for these songs get debated. Back in my green youth I sung a couple of songs in "the wrong time and place". I use a little more discretion now, but sometimes you can step in quicksand and get a little wet.

Rick

Subject: RE: Foggy Dew 1916
From: GUEST,joe
Date: 28 Oct 00 - 02:12 PM

whew! you guys are over my head! but more good history please. (& thanx)

Subject: RE: Foggy Dew 1916
From: Big Mick
Date: 28 Oct 00 - 01:57 PM

Balladeer, despite Boggy's comments, do not be afraid to ask these comments here. Discussion of these matters, while spirited, have led to some marvelous conversations. Never be afraid of controversy. This particular area of controversy has spawned some marvelous music in both the Orange/Unionist and the Green/Republican traditions. The version of Foggy Dew that you refer to is a wonderful rendition and a very powerful song. De Valera is a very controversial figure, especially in the fullness of time. He was a man with a tremendous ego, and it has suggested that he couldn't deal with anything that dealt his self image as the founder of the Irish Republic a negative blow. It has further been suggested in the debate with regard to him and Michael Collins, that he had been negotiating with Downing Street in secret. When he realized in those secret negotiations that he couldn't achieve getting all 32 counties, he sent Michael Collins in, in effect setting Collins up for failure and disgrace. It has also been postulated that Collins realized the trap, and tried to negotiate more of the Northern counties into partition in order to create a Catholic and Republican majority and hence achieve unification through the political means. When this didn't work, and the best he could do was the current situation, Collins pushed hard for the 26 counties as a starting point for the Irish Republic. He felt strongly that ultimate unification would come from this and the opportunity for this starting point must not be missed. De Valera left and the Irish Civil War was on. Some years later, when Dev took the same position that he criticized Collins for taking, he was seen as hypocritical in some circles and as a sellout in some others. I hope this helps you a little. There are many others here better versed in this than I and they can assist more or clear up any factual errors I may have made. But Don Meixners point above is a very important one. De Valera was a very important figure in the Irish struggles for independence and the establishment of the Irish Republic. I would add a strong second to the recommendation that you read Tim Pat Coogan's books on the Big Fella (Collins) and the Long Fella (De Valera).

All the best,

Mick

Subject: RE: Foggy Dew 1916
From: DonMeixner
Date: 28 Oct 00 - 12:37 PM

Hi Balladeer

I have sung in a Irish band for some 15 years now and this is an area of Irish history that I know so little of. Was DeValera a hero or a villian? I can't say. I do know he was elected president of the republic for 40 years +/-. Something villians are rarely elected too in a free democracy. One friend said to me that DeValera's luck in not being excecuted with the rest of the leaders has something to due with the acrimony we hear from time to time. His main luck was that he was an American citizen by birth and the Brits didn't want to get us too mad.

Good luck in your search of truth and history. When you learn the truth, tell it. The truth has a way of making some uneasy but it never harmed anyone.

Don

Subject: RE: Foggy Dew 1916
From: GUEST,Boggy
Date: 28 Oct 00 - 11:46 AM

Balladeer you must be very young or extremely naive to ask this question. The political situation in Ireland has resulted in countless acrimonious threads here at Mudcat. Even a cursory knowledge of Irish history should show you that finding this easily available information on the net is preferable to once again opening not so old wounds here. I'm sorry to sound unkind, as you probably are quite young and have just discovered a powerful song, but some here have used openings like this in a very negative way.

Subject: RE: Foggy Dew 1916
From: Fiolar
Date: 28 Oct 00 - 09:38 AM

It's not simple. De Valera as President of the declared Irish Republic sent Michael Collins to London to negotiate with the British Government the conditions of the Treaty. On return to Dublin, De Valera caused a split in the ranks of the Irish deputies by voting against the terms of the treaty. This in turn lead to the Irish Civil War in which Michael Collins was killed. One of the saddest days in the long history of Ireland. The bitterness of the conflict still has echoes in Ireland today. A full explanation can be found in the books by Tim Pat Coogan on both Michael Collins and De Valera. Both are well worth the effort. M

Subject: RE: Foggy Dew 1916
From: Jimmy C
Date: 28 Oct 00 - 08:55 AM

When the song was written, Eamon De Valera was one of the top leaders of the Republian Movement in Ireland, in later years he outlawed the I.R.A. and jailed it's members, for doing exactly what he had done in earlier years. This lead some people to consider him a bit of a traitor, not all thought that way. Some people sing " Or fought with Cathal Brugha" instead. Cathal Brugha (Charles Burgess in English) was a die hard republican who refused to compromise in any way with the English. When Brugha died in a gun fight he had 42 bullet holes in him. In 1949 De Valera declared the 26 counties a republic. Most republicans held the idea that Ireland would never be a true republic unless the whole island (all 32 counties) were independent, this did not help endear Dev to a lot of the people either. No matter how you feel his contribution to the republican movement cannot be minimized or overlooked.

Subject: Foggy Dew 1916
From: balladeer
Date: 28 Oct 00 - 08:11 AM

This revolutionary song contains the phrase "fought with Valera true." I know those are words that make many people angry. Why is that? And, so as to avoid rubbing salt in open wounds, what is usually sung instead (and why)? I know Valera is considered by some to be a traitor. I'm looking for more detail.