Origin: Dumbarton's Drums

Subject: Dumbarton's Drums-History?
From:
Date: 30 Aug 97 - 05:28 PM

My daughter's high school history project requires her to find an 18th Century song and present it to the class, along with information on its "historical, cultural, and political significance". She would like to use Dumbarton's Drums, and would like any information about the song that you might have. (We have the words.)

Subject: RE: Dumbarton's Drums-History?
From: alison
Date: 01 Sep 97 - 12:13 AM

Hi

It is Scottish.

The only thing written about it in my "Songs of Scotland" book is that the text first appeared in 1724, in the first volume of Allan Ramsay's "Tea-table Miscellany,". In 1733 it appeared with text and tune in William Thompson's "Orpheus Caledonius."

Good luck with the project, hope this helps.

Slainte

Alison

Subject: RE: Dumbarton's Drums-History?
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Sep 97 - 11:44 AM

Yes, it had a low-key existance in Britain for a long time..it first surfaced in this country in the family of Bob Beers...I believe his grandfather George Sullivan knew it and passed it on...and of course, Bob & Evelyn Beers put it on record about 1962 or so...and it has been popular ever since..perhaps someone can fill in other facts...

Subject: RE: Dumbarton's Drums-History?
From: Bruce
Date: 01 Sep 97 - 12:42 PM

I know no more than Alison about early copies of the song. Tune for TTM copy is in A. Stuart's Music (for TTM), c 1726. Tune earlier appeared in the Skene MS as "I serve a worthy lad[d]y" and as 'A Scotch tune' in Apollo's Banquet, 1670.

Subject: RE: Dumbarton's Drums-History?
From: Bruce
Date: 01 Sep 97 - 01:00 PM

An Addendum. I do not have the TTM text, so don't know its precise title. It appears that the correct title is "Dumbarton Drums", not "Dumbarton's Drums" as in Orpheus Caledonius and many later texts. "Dumbarton Drums" is the title of the song in a Scots MS of the 1740's, NLS MS 6299, and the title of the tune in A. Stuart's Music (for TTM), c 1726.

Here is an example of a song of which the traditional version is a much better song than the 'original'.

Subject: RE: Dumbarton's Drums-History?
From: Murray
Date: 04 Sep 97 - 01:26 PM

A couple of my song-books give a bit of info--The song doesn't refer to the drums of the garrison of Dumbarton on the Clyde, but to a British regiment, which took its name from the officer who first commanded it, i.e. the Earl of Dumbarton. He was a cadet of the family of Douglas, who was commander of the Royal Forces in Scotland during the reigns of Charles II and James II; with the lost cause of the Stuarts, he left the country and died in exile in France in 1692. Further on this, I might as well summarise the entry in William Anderson's biographical book "The Scottish Nation" (1868), II.72: Title "earl of Dumbarton" conferred 1675 on Lord George Douglas, 3rd son the the first Marquis of Douglas. In his young days he was page of honour to Louis XIV of France, and became an officer in the French army (rose to be major-general). After the Treaty of Nimeguen (1673), recalled to England by Charles II, who created him Earl of Dumbarton by patent (9 March 1675). On the accession of James VII [= James II] was appointed commander-in-chief of the Scottish forces, and defeated the Earl of Argyll's invasion (1685). After the "Glorious Revolution" of 1688 he accompanied King James to France, and was appointed one of his lords of the bedchamber at St. Germains, where he died.

Subject: RE: Dumbarton's Drums-History?
From:
Date: 30 Jan 00 - 03:04 PM

Subject: RE: Dumbarton's Drums-History?
From:
Date: 30 Jan 00 - 03:08 PM

The song appeared in early printed collections, but disappeared from the oral tradition in Scotland.

It was found in Montana in 1961 by Jean Redpath, from the playing of Bob Beers.

"Music and Songs of Scotland", Greentrax, 1989

Please send any variations of the words you may find.

Regards, Christine Savage

Subject: RE: Dumbarton's Drums-History?
From: GUEST
Date: 30 Jan 00 - 04:04 PM

Beer's daughter Eveleen sang is on a phono record before Jean Redpath heard her version of it. I heard that the Beers family had a longer version that than on the phono records by Eveleen and Jean Redpath, but I've not seen or heard it.

Subject: RE: Dumbarton's Drums-History?
From: GUEST,Boab
Date: 05 Feb 02 - 01:54 AM

Subject: RE: Dumbarton's Drums-History?
From: musicmick
Date: 05 Feb 02 - 03:02 AM

Eveline was not Bob Beers' daughter, she was his wife. His daughter, who was a fine singer, was Martha, who we called Marty. When Bob sang GREEN GRAVEL, he added a verse about "Miss Martha". Bob, who was called "Fiddler" Beers, usually accompanied DUMBARTON'S DRUMS on psaltry or fiddlesticks.

Subject: RE: Dumbarton's Drums-History?
From: GUEST,Sammy Rich
Date: 07 Dec 05 - 05:22 PM

In the 18th edition of Tea Table Miscellany it is clearly stated.

Dunbarton's Drums and not Dunbarton Drums.

Subject: RE: Dumbarton's Drums-History?
From: GUEST
Date: 07 Dec 05 - 05:24 PM

It is equally clear that is Dum and not Dun. Sorry

Subject: RE: Dumbarton's Drums-History?
From: GUEST,MC Fat
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 06:50 AM

As a 'Son of the Rock' (i.e. someone who was born in Dumbarton) I can tell you it is Dumbarton for the town Dunbarton for the County

Subject: RE: Dumbarton's Drums-History?
From: Dave Hanson
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 09:13 AM

I lived there for a while, it's Dumbarton, I still love it.

I was carried up Dumbarton Rock whe I was five years old.

eric

Subject: RE: Dumbarton's Drums-History?
From: Pied Piper
Date: 08 Dec 05 - 09:40 AM

DUMBARTON'S DRUMS. AKA and see "Scotch Tune." Scottish, Scottish Measure and Air. F Major/D Minor. Standard. AABB. Emmerson (1972) characterizes this (and other Scottish Measure tunes) as a "slightly different style of Scottish double hornpipe air." The melody was first published in England as a generically-titled "Scotch Tune" in John Playford's Apollo's Banquet (Sixth Ed., 1690). In its native Scotland the song and tune proved durable and popular; it earliest appears in the Skene Manuscript from the early seventeenth century (c. 1615-1630) and subsequently was published in over 20 sources before 1793. The Gow's printed it in their Repository, Part Second, 1802. Robert Burns referred to it as a "West Highland" air in his manuscript notes. It appears in O'Farrell's Vol. III (1810/20) pg. 55.
***
"Dumbarton's Drums" is the oldest tune played for a march-past in the British army, i.e. when a regiment passed in review in front of an inspecting officer on formal occasions. In 1881 all the British army infantry regiments were ordered to submit for appraisal by the Horse Guards (the headquarters of the army) all the tunes used for such occasions. The Royal Scots Regiment (who used "Dumbarton's Drums") did not obey, and to this day the march, which continues to be used, has never been officially approved.
***
It was the Celtic population of Scotland that gave the name Dun Breattan (now Dumbarton), 'the fort of the Britons', to the stronghold of that people on the Clyde (Matthews, 1972). In more modern times Dumbarton has long been a county town on the north side of the Forth of Clyde, about fifteen miles from Glasgow, and is the principle town of the county of Dunbartonshire. It featurs a castle on the drumlin known locally as Dumbarton Rock. See note for "Dumbarton Castle" for more information on Dumbarton.
***
An early version of the song begins:
***
Dumbarton's drums beat bonnie, O
When they mind me of my dear Johnie, O;
How happie am I
When my soldier is by,
While he kisses and blesses his Annie, O!
'Tis a soldier alone can delight me, O,
For his graceful looks do invite me, O;
While guarded in his arms,
I'll fear no war's alarms,
Neither danger nor death shall e'er fright me, O.
***
Emmerson (Rantin' Pipe and Tremblin' String), 1971; No. 19, pg. 125

PP

Subject: RE: Origin: Dumbarton's Drums
From: GUEST,Royal Scot soldier
Date: 07 Mar 11 - 08:43 PM

Just come across this old thread, the tune is indeed the regimental march of THe Royal Scots, The Royal Regiment, raised by Sir John Hepburn in 1633under royal warrant, it is the oldest recorded piece of military music, Samuel Pepys wrote of it and is accredited to be the music of the Royal Scots. there is more evidence to this.

Subject: RE: Origin: Dumbarton's Drums
From: Jack Campin
Date: 07 Mar 11 - 09:05 PM

The tune of the modern song isn't the 17th century one Pepys knew.

There are quite a few older military tunes, the Agincourt Carol and the war march of Mehmet the Conqueror for starters.

Subject: RE: Origin: Dumbarton's Drums
From: Jim McLean
Date: 14 Feb 20 - 05:20 AM

For clarity's sake it should be pointed out that there are two songs which are entireley different, both in melody and text but they share only the title Dumbarton's Drums.
Th e first is the Scottish traditional song, copied exactly by Burns from Thompson's Orpheus Caledonia and published in Johnson's Scots Musical Museum.
The Royal Scots March is taken from this melody.

The second Dumbarton's Drums came through an American Traditional Folk family led by Robert 'Fiddler' Beers and they were active from the 1950s to the 70s.
Kenneth S Goldstein covers their association with this tune in his study 'Two penny Ballads and four dollar whiskies.' He says the song was recorded on a tape in 1963 and subsequently issued on an LP Introducing the Beers Family, Columbia 1965.
This is the song recorded by Jean Redpath in 1995 on an LP called 'Summer of MY Dreams'. Jean Redpath knew the Beers in the 1960s and coincidentally her early records were produced by Kenneth Goldstein. It's possible she introduced the song into Scotland as she was a lecturer in the University of Stirling in 1979. of course the Beers Family album of 1965 could have been heard in the UK. This is the version that the Corries et al now sing except the Corries swap the gender of the two main characters but I emphasise, the song only shares its title with the Scottish trad song collected/copied by Burns, two different songs, not versions, with the same title.

Subject: RE: Origin: Dumbarton's Drums
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 14 Feb 20 - 08:08 AM

Thanks for sending me the recording of the older tune, Jim: it was lovely!

Subject: RE: Origin: Dumbarton's Drums
From: Elmore
Date: 14 Feb 20 - 10:42 AM

About half way through this thread someone referred to Evelyn Beers as Bob beers' daughter. She was Bob's wife. Her name was Evelyne.{not Evelyn} His daughter's name is Martha, aka Marty, and Marty's last name now is Meshberg.

Subject: RE: Origin: Dumbarton's Drums
From: Bill D
Date: 14 Feb 20 - 12:40 PM

Well... in the post by Pied Piper in Dec. 2005, lines are quoted from "an early version" which are certainly similar to the Beers family version. It would take a longer explication to clarify exactly how they are related. The same goes for the name Dumbarton itself..... family, town...

Subject: RE: Origin: Dumbarton's Drums
From: Jim McLean
Date: 14 Feb 20 - 01:56 PM

I tried to make it clear that there are two DIFFERENT songs with only the titles in common.
The " earlier version" is from the song Burns copied from the Orpheus Caledonius.
Only the genre is similar, soldier and girl, but the words are different and the tune is entirely different.

Subject: RE: Origin: Dumbarton's Drums
From: Jim McLean
Date: 14 Feb 20 - 02:10 PM

The Burns' Family came from Ireland originally, around 1830 and it suggested their great,grandmother may have picked the song up from guests in her boarding house in Pennsylvania. The fact that both titles are the same suggests a connection with Scotland way back but their song cannot be called a 'version' as it is too far away melodically. I can hear the Butcher's Boy tune family which would suggest someone remembered the story but made up a new song.

Subject: RE: Origin: Dumbarton's Drums
From: Jack Campin
Date: 14 Feb 20 - 03:47 PM

The modern tune has a faint similarity to "Bandiera Rossa".

Subject: RE: Origin: Dumbarton's Drums
From: Jim McLean
Date: 14 Feb 20 - 04:41 PM

If hear the tune family 'Barbara Allen"

Subject: RE: Origin: Dumbarton's Drums
From: GUEST,Tony Bird, Northridge, California
Date: 08 Oct 20 - 10:23 AM

Interesting discussion of one of my favorite songs.

This is the first I've heard of the "2" version up there, and I'd like to know which is which. I've only known the first version. They're obviously related thematically, but the melodies are very different.

I think switching gender is unpardonable--this is so much the song of a young woman in love, and vulnerably so, since she's in love with a soldier who lives a perilous life.

Subject: RE: Origin: Dumbarton's Drums
From: leeneia
Date: 08 Oct 20 - 11:45 AM

If you go to YouTube and enter "Dumbarton's Drums" in the lower search box, you can hear the Corries sing the song with the pretty melody, and then in a different video you can hear "The Regimental March of the Royal Scots - Dumbarton's Drums."

That oughta help.

Subject: RE: Origin: Dumbarton's Drums
From: GUEST
Date: 10 Feb 24 - 02:49 PM

I think The Corries managed the 'Gender change' quite well.