BS: Why not English tradition?

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: Gervase
Date: 04 Nov 00 - 06:33 AM

Mike Sutton summed up the problem far better than I can in the Musical Traditions website, here
Sadly there are no real solutions offered...

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 04 Nov 00 - 06:32 AM

On my couple of visits to Ireland I have noticed that some of the TV programs are are about heritage and culture, they are very intersting and often better than the mindless rubbish I am faced with. Another program was about an isolated school and how the children use the internet to 'see' beyond their isolation and keep in touch with other schools. At present I haven't been able to locate a likely looking website but came across another school instead. If you would like to have a look Coolderry
Roger

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Nov 00 - 06:20 AM

Things like the publuc reaction to Diana's death and the recent fuel protests, demonstrate that there is a need for something we can ALL feel and belong to.

It's just that whatever that may be, it is not the thing that those who carefully try to exclude all other musical influences from, refer to as English Traditional Music.

The link has been broken, the music has been stolen and it is not now possible to repair or to return it. It has compensations, in that The English are now free to encompass everyone elses music and traditions.

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 04 Nov 00 - 06:13 AM

One question, does this thread really deserve a BS label? I would have thought that it is very relevant to folk music.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 04 Nov 00 - 06:07 AM

I would guess that the lack of the guy burning on the bonfire is due to someone sowhere along the line coming up with the notion that it would give kids the idea of burning real people...

As for the other bits, I guess this is a price we pay for being more of a global community with people becoming more and more aware of what happens elsewhere and adopting traditions and ideas (it is not just tradition effected) from elsewhere although I have no idea why some are chosen in favour of others (I hate trick or treat for example).

Regarding the Irish music, I tend to prefer it to English music, largely because I find a lot of it more lively (although there are plenty of good English songs and tunes). I think a big factor here is marketing and the "celtic" label. The fact is that many of us, myself included, were not born into an English musical tradition and became aware of Irish music before much of our English tradition. Perhaps one could even argue that the Irish were better at adapting their traditions to a changing world than the English were...

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 04 Nov 00 - 05:59 AM

I love Sir John Fenwick's The Flower Amang Them All and Bonny at Morn, both of which seem to be Northumbrian tunes. some "Irish diddly diddlies" are wonderful tunes others to me seem bland, as can Morris tunes also. Which tunes do you like? I am always looking for new ones to try

I do agree that in England the people on mass seem to be embarrassed by our own traditions and songs and that is a great shame. This seems to be our problem though Mrs Duck it is the fault of English people if we scorn our own musical heritage. I believe in Ireland the same problem was foreseen and steps taken to encourage all things 'traditional', now rather than being seen as embarrassing or old fashioned 'Tradition' is a major source of employment and pride. Perhaps Chris Smith and the lottery commission should be made aware of these concerns?

Roger

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: pict
Date: 04 Nov 00 - 05:41 AM

Halloween is a Celtic tradition the English are not Celts.I'd hazard a guess that most people simply prefer Celtic traditional music to English traditional because it is musically more interesting also Morris dancing is very sedate and not visually as interesting as Irish dancing.I can't imagine a performance as spectacular as the riverdance being based on Morris dancing.

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: GUEST,Liam's Brother
Date: 04 Nov 00 - 04:36 AM

You lament the media's joking about Morris dancers and I agree with you. It is a real shame. But you then refer to another country's music as "Irish diddly diddlies." I presume your heart's in the right place, Mrs Duck, but that's quite insensitive and offensive. Don't you see that?

By the way, the observance of Halloween is an English custom. New England (the genesis of Halloween observance in the USA) was colonised by the English some 350 years ago. The mumming tradition in the USA comes from England. Halloween was an old Druid custom that got folded into Christianity when the Romans colonised England. In actuality, the Americans are giving you back your own very English custom.

I agree with mouldy above. I remember from 1960 that it was called Guy Fawkes Day but Bonfire Night.

All the best,
Dan

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: Long Firm Freddie
Date: 04 Nov 00 - 04:29 AM

Bonfire celebrations are still a big thing down on the South coast of England; barrels of flaming tar are manhandled through the streets, and ENORMOUS bonfires lit; it's very much an inter-town rivalry thing. Whose bonfire's biggest!

But Halloween. Yes, the local kids tend to favour it over penny for the Guy 'cos you can dress up and you have a captive audience when you ring someone's doorbell. The kids who called at my door the other night were dressed up really cute; it was only after I closed the door that I recalled that the innocent little girl in the witch's outfit had had 666 written on her forehead! Scary!

Yesterday there were some kids at the local railway station with their Guy; they could have done with one of mouldy's egg box carton masks; they'd had to make do with a halloween skeleton mask. Not the same...

LFF

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: roopoo
Date: 04 Nov 00 - 03:43 AM

As little Roman Catholic kids (now lapsed and gone C of E which is something of a reverse trend) we were never forbidden to celebrate Guy Fawkes night. But everyone called it bonfire night mainly, even 40 years ago, when this accursed imported begging called Trick or Treat was unheard of. (Don't get me started on the carol singers who didn't know any carols!) You don't see kids out much (at least round here) with the truly English form of begging known as "Penny for the Guy", and that seems to have dropped off in the last 10 years. It used to be fun to see which of 'em had the most brass-faced cheek in passing off a stuffed bin bag and a balloon as a guy! Gone are the days when we used to nag for dad's old jacket and trousers, and the shops sold masks made out of egg carton cardboard specifically for the purpose. The last one I made was life-sized and we were allowed to take him round the neighbours houses to beg pennies. And it WAS only pennies too!

You know, if the kids wanted to get up to no good, they only had to wait for (I think it's tonight, Nov 4th) Mischief Night (aka Mickey night, Punkie night, etc) which IS English and IS old and gives them just as much licence to lob eggs at doors and the like, but without the scrounging! The fact that, given some of the choice spirits that lived round here, we used to keep our heads well down, is neither here nor there. I have a sneaky suspicion that fireworks may prove more interesting to the young'uns this year. The village has been quiet the last few years. Perhaps this new breed have NEVER HEARD of it!

Andrea

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: GUEST,Kernow Jon
Date: 03 Nov 00 - 06:46 PM

Not so sure about the majority of melodeon players, don't know them all. In our band we have 3 people who can play melodeon, none of us is capable of playing from sheet music and we'll give any tune you like a fair crack!
I love the morris tunes and learn't most of mine on the road and found that if I sat in the corner of a bar and quietly played you soon got an audience that tapped along and bought you a pint.
Mrs. Duck I think you are right about the ridicule from the press and media (unless they want to shoot a quaint holiday video). They don't get a lot of problem down here from the public though and we have two local established local sides and a third just starting. Iv'e got 12 kids interested the head's permission and the parents think it's great and I'm just trying to persuade a dancer or 2 come along and teach and we're away. Wish me Luck!
KJ

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: Burke
Date: 03 Nov 00 - 05:36 PM

Isn't Guy Fawkes day awfully anti-Roman Catholic? Are you sure you want to keep burning in effigy alive? Halloween & All Saints day are closely related to Samhain & not something invented west of the Atlantic.

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 03 Nov 00 - 04:22 PM

That's a silent 'P' as in bath!!!and I know I've put the n's and l's the wrong way round but ...........

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 03 Nov 00 - 04:19 PM

God forbid Shambles that line dancing become the new tradition!!! I do not blame anything on the Yanks, Jack nor do I consult my book of English grammar when typing a mudcat message!!Please note the capital!!!!PPersonnaly I think Guy Fawkes did know better and was quite justified in his actions but that is not really my point.

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Nov 00 - 04:11 PM

What is it with the English?.

This spawned three versions and contained a lot of good stuff. Not too sure there were many answers though.

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 03 Nov 00 - 04:09 PM

Not English wildlone it's 'British that has ended up with the racial overtones. I am no more on the side of this current government than you are and don't see where they fit in with the word socialist but I have always been a bit unhappy about the term British whereas English is what I am!!

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: Bert
Date: 03 Nov 00 - 04:06 PM

Yer right there Mrs D. I still can't find anyone who remembers the rules of 'Gobs'. Kinda sad ain't it.

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: GUEST,Jack
Date: 03 Nov 00 - 04:06 PM

This is my first time here. English is a language, language is a virus...those who feel English tradition is lost ought to go back and read the notes they have written......Guy Fawkes would have known better.........in any case have a good fire...then get out the english grammar book. I hate to be odd, but don"t blame the yanks....I have seen the enemy...it is us.

Jack

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: wildlone
Date: 03 Nov 00 - 03:56 PM

But to be English is racist according to our great socialist leaders.
Sorry Mrs Duck I meant to say according to those spin doctor lead spineless things in westminster that were elected to run this country of ours, They could not run for a bus.
dave who still knows what the 23rd April means.
"click" .

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Nov 00 - 03:50 PM

The English tradition was/is victim of the class system. The peoples music and dance was stolen from the people and 'tarted' up.

The songs and music were printed, transcrbed and arranged to be played on pianoforte in Victorian parlours.

The majority of English melodeon players learn their tunes from the printed page and are largley terrified of attempting to play anything with 'balls'.

There is no living link between the English tradition and the people. It does free them however to take the music and traditions of other countries and do a passable job of samba, salsa and line-dancing.

Not to sure I will miss burning folk in effigy.

Subject: RE: BS: Why not English tradition?
From: Cobble
Date: 03 Nov 00 - 03:44 PM

Quiet right Mrs Duck, they call it bonfire night not Guy Fawkes night anymore. I think its like everything else now Commercialism rears its ugly head, profits rule and the reasons for the tradition disappear in smoke so to say.

Cobble.

Subject: Why not English tradition?
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 03 Nov 00 - 03:34 PM

Having just spent a day telling my class of six year olds about Guy Fawkes I discovered that very few of them had ever seen a guy on a bonfire let alone know why we celebrate Guy Fawkes day. It made me think of how many other English traditions are being lost because people either don't bother or worse make fun of anything which could be called traditional. Our childrn have started following the American traditions of Halloween and trick or treat but because they have never been part of our culture it's all a bit half hearted but they ignore anything that is. Those of us who are Morris dancers will be used to the jibes of passers-by and the very poor press given by the media where it is always a joke item and yet these things are OUR traditions. Even in the folk world so many people play Irish diddly diddlies but turn their noses up at English songs and tunes. Why??