BS: A Day of Absence for Democracy

Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: GUEST,Bob S
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 07:56 PM

Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: DougR
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 06:24 PM

Are you implying Chicago Democrats are brighter than Florida Democrats are, Guest Bob S. :>)

DougR

Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: GUEST,Bob S.
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 05:57 PM

Hey, the Democrats didn.t have any problem with the butterfly in Chicago.

Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: Frankham
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 05:34 PM

I think that instead of penalizing employers by a day of absence from work, we might employ a device used in the Aristophanes comedy, Lysta Strata. How about a day of abstinence? :)

Frank

Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: Frankham
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 05:32 PM

There was a news report today that a box of ballots was stolen from a heavilly Democratic voting county. Now who would want to do a thing like that? :)

Florida is not known for it's lack of irregularities in voting procedures. It is however known for it's ties to corruption and has a history of criminal syndicate activity.

Rather than advance a conspiracy theory here, I would like to see how this might be exonerated by the attention given through the courts.

There is a possibility that the machines in the Palm Beach County area might have been faulty. If in case this is true, should the voters be penalized?

By the way, I saw that butterfly ballot in the newspaper and I think a solution would be for it to be redesigned so that Al Gore's name appears at the top and let's see how many Republicans can use it and get it right. Then we'll find out which block of voters are error prone.

JFK did not steal the election from Richard Nixon because the voting irregularities in Illinois did not account for the lead, however small, JFK had over Nixon. The analogy doesn't work.

The best scenario is to let it play out. The safety net is that if there is no president by Jan 20, the House of Representatives can legally pick one. In the meantime, instead of excusing what took place under Nixon and Kennedy, why don't we let the process go forward and get it right?

Frank

Frank

Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: Thyme2dream
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 03:53 PM

Sorry Fionn, the theory has a few holes in it...most of the people doin the Drive-bys are driving much better cars than I have...even had one a couple months back where the car was a Mercedes. Oh, and the people they are shooting? Poor folks.

Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 12:33 PM

Thyme, progress doesn't have to come complete with drive-by shootings. Most social problems are related to wide (in my view obscene) disparities between rich and poor. If a guy works his socks off, or even just as hard as GW Bush (ha ha) and finishes up in poverty, while his neighbours are stinking rich, he'll do something about that if he's got any sense. We only get one shot at this life.

If you want the rich to get richer and the poor to get poorer, which seems to be Dubbya's agenda, and seems to have been happening in Texas of late, build a wall round the rich or put the poor in jail.

Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: InOBU
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 12:27 PM

Hi Bob: If you recall how carefully you did all the new tasks in school as a child, they probubly also did not have the tention of a long line waiting to vote behind them, and more, Goofy won by only 3 votes and Daffy wants a recount!
Cheers!
Larry

Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: DougR
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 12:17 PM

BobS; Thyme2Dream: I couldn't agree with you more.

No problem Lonesome EJ.

DougR

Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: GUEST,Bob S.
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 12:06 PM

I'll try againn to paste this from another thread:

Just for the hell of it, I guess, some schoolperson gave 74 5th graders a "butterfly" ballot to vote for their favorite Disney characters. They had no problem with it.

The hand count in Palm Beach and 3 other counties is a big joke. It's not just a count but an intepretation by committee of the voters intent.

If I was checking ballots and was backing a particular candidate. I know damn well what the intent is. In fact I wouldn't even have to look.

Bob S. who will reset his cookie some day.

Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: GUEST,Bob S.
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 12:02 PM

Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: Thyme2dream
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 01:55 AM

Kat, Don't be too quick to get Wyoming into the 20th century...how many drive by shootings did the children in your neighboorhood have to dodge last week?

We thought we'd be "trendy" here in Kansas about 10 years ago and get some more liberal up to date legislation--make our state 'more attractive' and less 'old fashioned'...guess what? We made our state more attractive all right... to gang members from LA and New York, looking for an easy place to hide with nice liberal laws!

Whomever mentioned it: I'm having a real hard time believing that all of a sudden a whole bunch of democrats in one county weren't allowed new ballots after making a mistake...seems to me that a political party whose leader could look America straight in the eye and tell bold faced lies while the party defended and/or dismissed these actions as trivial, could certainly find some loyal partyliners to rile up a bunch of journalists with some half truths and exaggerations!

Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 01:53 AM

Doug,on further investigation I see that you are correct and apologize for my mistake.However,I think that the primary flaw in the system lies not in the method of elector selection,but in the failure of the system to reflect the selection of the majority of people.In actuality,the electors themselves are intended as mere figureheads.

Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: JamesJim
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 11:47 PM

Democracy is alive and well. What a great country we live it! There is no crisis, no matter how this thing unfolds. We can't let the Palm Beach folks vote again, when there are thousands all over the country who made the same mistake - voted for someone they didn't intend to vote for. Let the outstanding votes decide it and move on!

JJ

Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: DougR
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 11:03 PM

Lonesome E. J., I don't know about how it is handled in your state, but citizens of Arizona do vote for the folks that will cast the electorial vote. I just assumed it is handled that way in all the states, but perhaps not.

DougR

Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 09:56 PM

The States don't come into the equation at all- it is an election for the president and vice president of a single nation by the citizens of that nation. How is any state, as a state, involved in influencing the outcome if we adopt a one-person-one-vote popular system?
Best, Greg

Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 09:43 PM

The flaw in your argument,Jon,is that electoral college electors are NOT in fact elected by the people. They are appointed by the individual state legislatures.I'm wondering when was the last time you voted for an elector?

"If we were to go to a process where the presidency is determined by the popular vote, just think how much more influence the most populated states would have over those less populated. Elections would always be determined by New York, California, Texas, and the other heavily populated states." says Doug R

Doug,there is no tacit uniformity of political philosophy or rigid agenda for each state.The small business man in Wyoming has far more in common with his counterpart in New Jersey than he does with the factory worker next door.The country has changed since 1798,when whole states and regions were dedicated to institutions such as slavery that rigidly divided them from other states.You cannot proclaim representative government,and then appoint your Chief Executive Officer over the will of the majority of your country's voters.

I advocate changing the rules,but not retroactively.I don't buy the "misleading ballot/hijack the election" argument.If,when the absentee ballots are counted,Gore has lost the popular vote in Florida,he should concede.I see no evidence of fraud or wrong-doing here,only confusion and inaccuracy,and that is not enough to justify a re-vote,or to take the matter into the courts.

LEJ,Gore Voter

Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: GUEST,MarkS
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 08:12 PM

Does anybody know how the total number voters coming to the polls in Palm Beach compares with the total number of ballots cast?

If the number of voters is, say, 100,000, and the number of total ballots cast is between 100,000 and 119,000, then you can make the case that some people got new ballots and punched them out more than once.
MarkS

Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: InOBU
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 07:45 PM

Hi DougR
Thouse votes don't belong to the candadates to pledge one way or the other, they belong to the voters who cast them, and if they were taken away or if the voter is defrauded, it is the voter who has the cause of action to go to court and defend his or her right to choose the president.
In fact, Florida has a better record then I supposed when I wrote this, at overturning badly conducted elections, though, if some hoodwink keeps this out of the court or covers up the results of the will of the people, I stand by my belief that we have an obligation to defend democracy with non-violent resistance.
all the best,
Larry

Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: DougR
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 06:32 PM

Frank, I sincerely hope that it does not reach the courts. I know that some suits have been filed, but, according to reports I have heard, the like-li-hood of those cases being dismissed are pretty good.

I wish both candidates would pledge NOW, before the total count is official, that the final vote in Florida will determine the outcome of the election.

DougR

Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: Bert
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 04:36 PM

Doug,
a lot of these issues are raised locally but not picked up by the national media or by anyone official. That was what happened in the case I mentioned above, about people being turned away in Alabama. There was a big stink in the local paper and in the town where it happened, but nothing more was heard of it.

Bert.

Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: Frankham
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 04:32 PM

Doug, I think that revising the electoral process is a good one. Just don't expect Jeb Bush to advocate it for Florida.

As to 19,000 voters being stupid, they might have been hoodwinked.

Let's see how it plays out in court.

Frank

Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: DougR
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 04:30 PM

Bert: I'd really like to see some positive proof of that. If it really happened, it ain't good. I would think there would be ample witnesses to such an outrage if people were refused second ballots after screwing up the first one.

DougR

Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: Bert
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 04:25 PM

Doug, it was reported on ABCnews.com yesterday, that people had been refused new ballots, but as you say, that doesn't make it true.

Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: DougR
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 04:18 PM

Ivan B: I haven't seen anything on that either, or heard it on TV.

I certainly agree that people in line at the time the polls close, should be allowed to vote. That could easily be monitored.

I haven't actually seen anyone interviewed that said they were refused new ballots after he/she screwed up the first one. I've certainly heard it reported though, by the TV folks. That doesn't always make it true, though. Not saying it didn't happen, but I've seen no credible proof yet. Has anyone else? Could you direct me to it?

DougR

Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: InOBU
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 03:42 PM

Fact is, a number of people DID ask for new ballots when they punched two holes, in panic realizing that they had voted for Buchanan in error. The reason there is to be a court battle is that in many cases they were not given new ballots. There is also the matter of road blocks in Black neighborhoods. It is begining to look more and more like the old south is begining to crawl off the dust bin of history. As to the vote from overseas, there is still a number of absentee votes from American jews from Florida who are presently in Isreal. According to Florida case law, which controls in this matter as a matter of federalizm, when the outcome of a vote can be changed because of an illegal and or confusing ballot, the outcome is thown out. When the diffrence is a few thousand, let alone 327 votes as here, Florida state law would direct a revote in the disputed districts. That's the law, not any disappointment on my part.
Cheersm'dears!,br> Larry

Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 03:08 PM

The United States is not a democracy. It never was and is not a democracy. It was not designed or intended as a democracy. It is a republic, wherein the government is carried on by elected representatives of the people. The particular function here, choosing the president and vice president, is no exception: The people elect the Electors, and the electors elect the president, just as the people elect legislators, who create or modify statutes. It would be IMPOSSIBLE to run a country of any size by a democracy, despite the fact that we tend to throw that word around loosely. A village, a town--MAYBE a county might be governed by a democracy, but not anything bigger. You just couldn't get the electorate to the meetings. q.e.d.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 02:40 PM

For the record, I am in the extreme minority of Wyoming. I would welcome a popular vote, esp. from the more populous states with liberal leanings, might actually bring Wyoming into the 20th century and stop it being like a third world country.

Some people were refused new ballots when they realised they'd made a mistake. That is against the law, as I heard it.

kat

Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: IvanB
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 02:17 PM

John, I must admit I haven't seen the explanation to which your refer and certainly can't find any reference to it anywhere on MSNBC's web site. Every reference I've seen to the 19,000 ballots is that they were ballots thrown out in the process of the ballot count, not that they were replaced at the request of the voter.

That said, I'm not sure of their relevance. It's a basic tenet of election law that, if I spoil my ballot, I can return it to an election official and ask that another be issued. That 19,000 people may have been unaware of this possibility should not, of itself, require any further action. But the reason for the ballots being spoiled in the first place must be taken into account. Were they so poorly designed that a voter could inadvertently spoil the ballot without being aware of it? If that's the case, some corrective action is in order.

As someone who was responsible for designing forms for much of my life, I fully believe that ballots should be designed by trained forms designers, not elected officials. This isn't to say those forms would be perfect, but I bet they'd be a vast improvement over what we deal with now.

And lastly, I fully agree with Bert's comments on poll closings above. In Michigan, the end of the polling line is sealed at 8:00 p.m. and all those in line at that time are allowed to vote. Makes sense to me, and why any state would do it differently is beyond me.

Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: The Shambles
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 02:16 PM

If in some African nation, the son of an ex-president is elected by 330 odd votes, in a state governed by his brother, this despite winning more votes than his rival, how would the outside world view it?

The world looks to the US to get it right. It is very important for all of us that it does.

Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: Bert
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 01:55 PM

I know in Alabama a few years ago people were turned away and weren't allowed to vote. I don't know if this happened anywhere this time but we should be aware that it is possible.

Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: Wesley S
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 01:52 PM

In any election I've ever heard of the polls don't close at 7, the polls close when everyone IN LINE at 7 have a chance to vote. But it wouldn't suprise me if some idiots walked away because of mistaken assumptions.

Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: John Hardly
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 01:39 PM

I suppose by now you heard the clarification from MSNBC last night that the 19,000 ballots did not represent 19,000 VOTES NOT CAST. They were a pile of ballots that WERE REPLACED WHEN PEOPLE REALIZED THEIR MISTAKE. The reason they were initially brought to the public's attention was to illustrate just how confusing the ballot was--NOT TO SAY THAT 19,000 VOTES WERE NOT CAST.

As to Democracy/Republic; The flaw with Democracy is best illustrated by the story of a certain two men and a woman. The one man turns to the other and says "I say we have sex with the woman here--let's put it to a vote".

John

Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: DougR
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 01:27 PM

I disagree, Mousethief. Neither candidate should concede until the absentee ballots are counted. I guess that will be known next Friday.

DougR

Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 01:27 PM

Amos-
The Electoral College has nothing to do with passing legislation. Only with presidential elections.

Doug-
States don't vote for president- individuals do; "undue state influence" is a straw man.

Best, Greg

Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: Kim C
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 01:23 PM

Maybe we should make Election Day a national holiday.

Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: Amos
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 01:13 PM

The buffering and dampening effect of the electoral college against power pushes and mass enthusiasms-du-jour is a workable part of a workable system. While it is not the "perfect" way to represent the best thinking of the citizenry, I would be careful as hell before I pulled that device out of the machinery. It could open the door to unimagined consequences of a seriously undesireable kind; one scenario that comes to mind is the ability of a company to capture the political influence of two large states, say California and New York, through highly focused advertising efforts, and resulting in self-serving legislation bought with marketing efforts and not dampened by the counterweight of the electoral college mechanism.

Perhaps the mechanism can be improved; but let us think long on the requirements, before changing the design, and think long on the design before changing the actual product.

A

Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: mousethief
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 01:04 PM

Ballots get screwed up. People make mistakes. It's terribly unfortunate, but if there is no evidence of tampering or fraud or misaction by poll workers, then it's just "one of those things." Next time the ballot designers might think to test the thing for usability. Next time the voters might know better than to punch two holes. The Republic will survive.

Time for Gore to concede, methinks. And I voted for him.

Alex
O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: Ringer
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 12:53 PM

Click here for an opinion on the Electoral College.

Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: Bert
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 12:42 PM

I kinda agree with Frank. It's the best thing that has happened. Whatever the outcome of this election, people are thinking and looking closely at the process which is a great thing. We're talking, and arguing, and pushing ideas around.

Another concern I have is that people who turned up to vote and who arrived before the polls closed, were turned away because the lines were too long and they couldn't get to vote before the polls closed. If you arrive before the polls close you should be able to vote.

That happened a few years ago in Alabama and I was concerned about it then. But I wasn't online then so I wasn't able to find out what could be done.

So!!! What can we do about it? As kat says, not to many people can afford to take off every Tuesday. There must be something constitutionally that we can do to resolve these problems.

Bert.

Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: DougR
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 12:33 PM

In a close election like this one, Kim, under the electoral college even the small states electoral votes are important. If we were to go to a process where the presidency is determined by the popular vote, just think how much more influence the most populated states would have over those less populated. Elections would always be determined by New York, California, Texas, and the other heavily populated states.

At least this is the way I view it.

DougR

Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: Kim C
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 12:26 PM

I understand the premise of the electoral college, but if states like California have 54 votes, and others only have 4, aren't the large states still trampling over the smaller ones? I don't get it.

Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From:
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 12:20 PM

i believe in the constitution.

Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: DougR
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 11:54 AM

Jon W. and Kim C: I agree with you Jon. The less populated states will never, I believe, vote to ratify an amendment to the Constitution that would, in effect, emasculate them. Had Gore won outright (and he still may), we never would have heard this hue and cry for a change in the electorial process, in my opinion.

If the recount shows Gore the winner in the Electoral College, this whole debate about illegal ballots, and folks voting twice will evaporate in a New York minute.

Kim: I agree with you.

DougR

Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: Kim C
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 11:26 AM

If they are waiting for military ballots, then Gore may be very disappointed. Many people in the armed forces are unhappy with the way the Clinton administration has handled military affairs and I doubt too many of them are voting Democrat.

Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: Jon W.
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 11:23 AM

If ever there was a thread on Mudcat that should have the BS prefix on the title, this is it. This about the thickest I've ever seen it spread around here. DougR alone has said it right. I have to ask myself (and I wish some of the reporters would ask the "confused Florida voters") when was the last time they'd been inside a polling place? If they can't follow an arrow to a hole...(draw your own conclusion here). As for the abolition of the electoral college, look before you leap. Kat, if you want to be ruled by New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, Boston, and Houston, go ahead and abolish the electoral college. But if you want Casper, Wyoming to have even so much as a voice in the election of the president, you'd better fight to keep it. It was establised so that the smaller states could not be trampled with impunity by the larger states.

Jon W.

Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: Bun
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 11:09 AM

I believe in democracy - 1 person one vote Welcome President Gore.
Rich

Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: DougR
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 11:08 AM

Larry: I am sympathetic that you are disappointed, and it will come as no surprise to anyone here that I will not join in your effort to organize a protest. It is not because of my partisan leanings, I assure you.

There is no way in hell to guarantee that all 15,000 or 19,000 voters intended their vote for Gore. Those voters simply had their heads up their butt and punched the wrong places. They should know you cannot vote for two presidents. If they were confused, they should have asked for another ballot, or conferred with an election official. The argument that they didn't know isn't good enough.

Neither is the argument that another election should be held because the candidate of choice did not win.

Why not direct your efforts to changing the eleciton system next time around if you don't like the current system, instead of pushing efforts to keep the Country in turmoil?

In my opinion, when all Florida votes are counted, which supposedly will be by the end of the work day on November 17th, a winner should be declared. If it is Gore, so be it. If it is Bush, so be it.

DougR

Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: InOBU
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 10:54 AM

Even in a republic, theft is theft. - Larry

Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: GUEST,Mrrzy-sans-cookie
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 10:50 AM

Don't forget the fine distinction: If we lived in a democracy, Gore would be president. The basis of Democracy is One Person = One Vote. We live in a Republic, and this is how you know it.

I also think this is the greatest thing for world politics. Look at us, it's The Great American Way - and, so far, no riots! I'm impressed with us.