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BS: A Day of Absence for Democracy

InOBU 10 Nov 00 - 07:50 AM
katlaughing 10 Nov 00 - 10:06 AM
Kim C 10 Nov 00 - 10:11 AM
InOBU 10 Nov 00 - 10:12 AM
InOBU 10 Nov 00 - 10:15 AM
InOBU 10 Nov 00 - 10:16 AM
Kim C 10 Nov 00 - 10:19 AM
InOBU 10 Nov 00 - 10:23 AM
Frankham 10 Nov 00 - 10:26 AM
InOBU 10 Nov 00 - 10:28 AM
katlaughing 10 Nov 00 - 10:30 AM
Kim C 10 Nov 00 - 10:40 AM
GUEST,Mrrzy-sans-cookie 10 Nov 00 - 10:50 AM
InOBU 10 Nov 00 - 10:54 AM
DougR 10 Nov 00 - 11:08 AM
Bun 10 Nov 00 - 11:09 AM
Jon W. 10 Nov 00 - 11:23 AM
Kim C 10 Nov 00 - 11:26 AM
DougR 10 Nov 00 - 11:54 AM
GUEST,jlaughery@webtv.net 10 Nov 00 - 12:20 PM
Kim C 10 Nov 00 - 12:26 PM
DougR 10 Nov 00 - 12:33 PM
Bert 10 Nov 00 - 12:42 PM
Ringer 10 Nov 00 - 12:53 PM
mousethief 10 Nov 00 - 01:04 PM
Amos 10 Nov 00 - 01:13 PM
Kim C 10 Nov 00 - 01:23 PM
Greg F. 10 Nov 00 - 01:27 PM
DougR 10 Nov 00 - 01:27 PM
John Hardly 10 Nov 00 - 01:39 PM
Wesley S 10 Nov 00 - 01:52 PM
Bert 10 Nov 00 - 01:55 PM
The Shambles 10 Nov 00 - 02:16 PM
IvanB 10 Nov 00 - 02:17 PM
katlaughing 10 Nov 00 - 02:40 PM
Uncle_DaveO 10 Nov 00 - 03:08 PM
InOBU 10 Nov 00 - 03:42 PM
DougR 10 Nov 00 - 04:18 PM
Bert 10 Nov 00 - 04:25 PM
DougR 10 Nov 00 - 04:30 PM
Frankham 10 Nov 00 - 04:32 PM
Bert 10 Nov 00 - 04:36 PM
DougR 10 Nov 00 - 06:32 PM
InOBU 10 Nov 00 - 07:45 PM
GUEST,MarkS 10 Nov 00 - 08:12 PM
Lonesome EJ 10 Nov 00 - 09:43 PM
Greg F. 10 Nov 00 - 09:56 PM
DougR 10 Nov 00 - 11:03 PM
JamesJim 10 Nov 00 - 11:47 PM
Lonesome EJ 11 Nov 00 - 01:53 AM
Thyme2dream 11 Nov 00 - 01:55 AM
GUEST,Bob S. 11 Nov 00 - 12:02 PM
GUEST,Bob S. 11 Nov 00 - 12:06 PM
DougR 11 Nov 00 - 12:17 PM
InOBU 11 Nov 00 - 12:27 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 11 Nov 00 - 12:33 PM
Thyme2dream 11 Nov 00 - 03:53 PM
Frankham 11 Nov 00 - 05:32 PM
Frankham 11 Nov 00 - 05:34 PM
GUEST,Bob S. 11 Nov 00 - 05:57 PM
DougR 11 Nov 00 - 06:24 PM
GUEST,Bob S 11 Nov 00 - 07:56 PM
GUEST,Bob S 11 Nov 00 - 07:57 PM
campfire 12 Nov 00 - 12:41 AM
The Shambles 12 Nov 00 - 05:16 AM
GUEST,Bob S. 12 Nov 00 - 06:32 AM
The Shambles 12 Nov 00 - 07:29 AM
The Shambles 12 Nov 00 - 07:43 AM
Uncle_DaveO 12 Nov 00 - 10:00 AM
GUEST,Bob S. 12 Nov 00 - 10:40 AM
InOBU 12 Nov 00 - 10:44 AM
Peter K (Fionn) 12 Nov 00 - 10:54 AM
katlaughing 12 Nov 00 - 11:14 AM
GUEST,tenchu@iolfree.ie 12 Nov 00 - 11:31 AM
Susan from California 12 Nov 00 - 02:13 PM
DougR 12 Nov 00 - 03:15 PM
GUEST,Ken from Mendocino 12 Nov 00 - 04:16 PM
GUEST,frankham 12 Nov 00 - 05:34 PM
InOBU 12 Nov 00 - 05:50 PM
The Shambles 12 Nov 00 - 05:55 PM
DougR 12 Nov 00 - 06:16 PM
Susan from California 12 Nov 00 - 08:54 PM
InOBU 12 Nov 00 - 08:54 PM
Troll 12 Nov 00 - 10:23 PM
Troll 12 Nov 00 - 10:43 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 12 Nov 00 - 11:52 PM
Troll 13 Nov 00 - 12:11 AM
GUEST,truckerdave 13 Nov 00 - 12:49 AM
DougR 13 Nov 00 - 01:12 AM
The Shambles 13 Nov 00 - 01:58 AM
Thomas the Rhymer 13 Nov 00 - 02:58 AM
Troll 13 Nov 00 - 07:32 AM
DougR 13 Nov 00 - 11:57 AM
InOBU 13 Nov 00 - 11:19 PM
InOBU 13 Nov 00 - 11:19 PM
InOBU 13 Nov 00 - 11:21 PM
Thomas the Rhymer 14 Nov 00 - 02:00 AM
Troll 14 Nov 00 - 02:25 AM
The Shambles 14 Nov 00 - 02:30 AM
InOBU 14 Nov 00 - 07:32 AM
GUEST,Greg F.(remote location) 14 Nov 00 - 08:51 AM
rabbitrunning 14 Nov 00 - 08:57 AM
GUEST,Tiger 14 Nov 00 - 12:01 PM
GUEST,Bob S 14 Nov 00 - 01:43 PM
InOBU 14 Nov 00 - 04:56 PM
InOBU 14 Nov 00 - 04:56 PM
McGrath of Harlow 14 Nov 00 - 06:21 PM
GUEST,Bob S 14 Nov 00 - 07:59 PM
GUEST,Bob S. 14 Nov 00 - 08:05 PM
McGrath of Harlow 14 Nov 00 - 09:27 PM
InOBU 14 Nov 00 - 11:32 PM
McGrath of Harlow 15 Nov 00 - 09:30 PM

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Subject: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: InOBU
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 07:50 AM

A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
Please copy and pass along
The people of the United States have a sacred right as well as an obligation to protect the freedom which has been paid for by generations with their life's blood. In this nation, today, we teach in the schools that we should honor the life of Mr. Martin Luther King, Jr. Dr. King taught that nonviolent passive resistance is the strongest tool the people can use in the cause of freedom. Today, a political party has stolen the control of one of the branches of government, and in doing so, potentially controlling all three branches of government, and does so in clear violation of the will of the people of the United States. When, in the present case, where 19,000 votes are discarded, when it is clear that they reflect an intention to name Gore the next president, then it is our obligation to protect our heritage of democracy. I therefore urge every citizen of the United States to make every Tuesday a day of absence. If our government is stolen from us, by our absence from work, we must take back our government.
If any of my fellow citizens are afraid of this action, are worried about the potential personal danger, I urge you to take an evening to read the words of Thomas Jefferson and Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr., then, as they did, pledge to lay your fortunes upon the altar of freedom.
Your fellow citizen.
Lawrence Otway


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 10:06 AM

Larry, I agree with you and while I know many fmaily members and friends who would like to do ths, they would literally lose their jobs, not something they can risk, esp. in the wintertime and before the holidays.

I think there must be some alternatives to offer for protest, too, and specifically I am wondering about use of the Internet, such as www.moveon.org has done in the past. I am sure the People for the American Way has something on their website, too.

I know there needs to be a concerted and visible presence/protest, I just don't see every Tuesday away from work as viable for lots of folks. Personally, I think we need to have one huge protest day demanding the popular vote count be taken for what it really is and name Gore President-Elect.

Thanks,

kat


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: Kim C
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 10:11 AM

That political party "stole" control of Congress only because people voted for them, and they ARE chosen by popular vote.


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: InOBU
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 10:12 AM

Hi KL!
Funny I just recieved a similer reply to an e-mail, and my responce is, in the words of Joe Hill, ORGANIZE! Maybe we can be - even - the BOSS to stand up and be counted for liberty!
Cheers
Larry


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: InOBU
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 10:15 AM

Dear Kim:
Please read my post with greater care, they are attempting to steal the executive branch of government by discarding 19,000 votes to win my 327. I did not, nor do I say the stole the legislative branch. Mr. Block gave them that free. For more information on theft, look up SNL in the history books.
Larry


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: InOBU
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 10:16 AM

that should read to win BY 327 - don't throw out the post...


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: Kim C
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 10:19 AM

Will do.


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: InOBU
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 10:23 AM

Hi KimC - Sorry if I jumped on ya, we are living in nerve straining times. Let me direct your attention to the line in quesiton... "Today, a political party has stolen the control of one of the branches of government" Note the word one, from context I expected folks would understand that to mean the exective branch.
All the best, Larry


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: Frankham
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 10:26 AM

Larry,

I can't agree with you. This election snafu is one of the best things that's happened to the country in some time. It's gotten people interested in politics again and is exactly the process of democracy at work.

Some people are going to have heartburn over this but I think it's a wonderful thing. Let's examine the electoral college and voting fraud. I'm glad people are so engaged. Begins to sound like democracy to me.

Frank


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: InOBU
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 10:28 AM

Hi Frank!
Funny, here you are! My answer to this is in the previous post about American Politics being a joke.
All the best,
Larry


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 10:30 AM

That's true, Frank, but I see the kind of protest Larry is advocating as an intergral part of the democracy at work which you mention. It is wonderful to see so many people aware and actually engaged. It will be important for that grassroots groundswell to be sustained through whatever means seem right and effective.

kat


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: Kim C
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 10:40 AM

Personally I have never understood why we elect everyone BUT the President by popular vote. It's also my understanding that the Electors can even change their minds at the last minute! I do agree that while this is a Royal Pain in the Ass, it will get people to thinking and let's face it, there's a lot of people out there who haven't done any in quite a while. Because something like this has never happened before, it's easy to cry Foul because there's no precedent to indicate how we should react.

Until it can be proven that there was any wrongdoing, I am just going to consider it a Comedy of Errors. I don't know how elections are manned in other places, but here in Nashville it's all volunteers - and if any of you have ever worked with a crew of volunteers, you know that easily half of them probably don't know what they're doing at any given moment.

If we can be cool about this whole thing for a little bit instead of pointing fingers and making assumptions, it could help things progress more smoothly. My philosophy today is, I'm going to refrain from judgment, and whoever is declared the winner is the winner, and I'm going to move on, and that's that.

But I still think it would just be easier to settle it with a good old-fashioned fistfight, with the prize going to whoever's left standing after 15 rounds. ;)


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: GUEST,Mrrzy-sans-cookie
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 10:50 AM

Don't forget the fine distinction: If we lived in a democracy, Gore would be president. The basis of Democracy is One Person = One Vote. We live in a Republic, and this is how you know it.

I also think this is the greatest thing for world politics. Look at us, it's The Great American Way - and, so far, no riots! I'm impressed with us.


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: InOBU
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 10:54 AM

Even in a republic, theft is theft. - Larry


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: DougR
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 11:08 AM

Larry: I am sympathetic that you are disappointed, and it will come as no surprise to anyone here that I will not join in your effort to organize a protest. It is not because of my partisan leanings, I assure you.

There is no way in hell to guarantee that all 15,000 or 19,000 voters intended their vote for Gore. Those voters simply had their heads up their butt and punched the wrong places. They should know you cannot vote for two presidents. If they were confused, they should have asked for another ballot, or conferred with an election official. The argument that they didn't know isn't good enough.

Neither is the argument that another election should be held because the candidate of choice did not win.

Why not direct your efforts to changing the eleciton system next time around if you don't like the current system, instead of pushing efforts to keep the Country in turmoil?

In my opinion, when all Florida votes are counted, which supposedly will be by the end of the work day on November 17th, a winner should be declared. If it is Gore, so be it. If it is Bush, so be it.

DougR


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: Bun
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 11:09 AM

I believe in democracy - 1 person one vote Welcome President Gore.
Rich


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: Jon W.
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 11:23 AM

If ever there was a thread on Mudcat that should have the BS prefix on the title, this is it. This about the thickest I've ever seen it spread around here. DougR alone has said it right. I have to ask myself (and I wish some of the reporters would ask the "confused Florida voters") when was the last time they'd been inside a polling place? If they can't follow an arrow to a hole...(draw your own conclusion here). As for the abolition of the electoral college, look before you leap. Kat, if you want to be ruled by New York, Chicago, Los Angeles, Boston, and Houston, go ahead and abolish the electoral college. But if you want Casper, Wyoming to have even so much as a voice in the election of the president, you'd better fight to keep it. It was establised so that the smaller states could not be trampled with impunity by the larger states.

Jon W.


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: Kim C
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 11:26 AM

If they are waiting for military ballots, then Gore may be very disappointed. Many people in the armed forces are unhappy with the way the Clinton administration has handled military affairs and I doubt too many of them are voting Democrat.


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: DougR
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 11:54 AM

Jon W. and Kim C: I agree with you Jon. The less populated states will never, I believe, vote to ratify an amendment to the Constitution that would, in effect, emasculate them. Had Gore won outright (and he still may), we never would have heard this hue and cry for a change in the electorial process, in my opinion.

If the recount shows Gore the winner in the Electoral College, this whole debate about illegal ballots, and folks voting twice will evaporate in a New York minute.

Kim: I agree with you.

DougR


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: GUEST,jlaughery@webtv.net
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 12:20 PM

i believe in the constitution.


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: Kim C
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 12:26 PM

I understand the premise of the electoral college, but if states like California have 54 votes, and others only have 4, aren't the large states still trampling over the smaller ones? I don't get it.


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: DougR
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 12:33 PM

In a close election like this one, Kim, under the electoral college even the small states electoral votes are important. If we were to go to a process where the presidency is determined by the popular vote, just think how much more influence the most populated states would have over those less populated. Elections would always be determined by New York, California, Texas, and the other heavily populated states.

At least this is the way I view it.

DougR


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: Bert
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 12:42 PM

I kinda agree with Frank. It's the best thing that has happened. Whatever the outcome of this election, people are thinking and looking closely at the process which is a great thing. We're talking, and arguing, and pushing ideas around.

Another concern I have is that people who turned up to vote and who arrived before the polls closed, were turned away because the lines were too long and they couldn't get to vote before the polls closed. If you arrive before the polls close you should be able to vote.

That happened a few years ago in Alabama and I was concerned about it then. But I wasn't online then so I wasn't able to find out what could be done.

So!!! What can we do about it? As kat says, not to many people can afford to take off every Tuesday. There must be something constitutionally that we can do to resolve these problems.

Bert.


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: Ringer
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 12:53 PM

Click here for an opinion on the Electoral College.


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: mousethief
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 01:04 PM

Ballots get screwed up. People make mistakes. It's terribly unfortunate, but if there is no evidence of tampering or fraud or misaction by poll workers, then it's just "one of those things." Next time the ballot designers might think to test the thing for usability. Next time the voters might know better than to punch two holes. The Republic will survive.

Time for Gore to concede, methinks. And I voted for him.

Alex
O..O
=o=


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: Amos
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 01:13 PM

The buffering and dampening effect of the electoral college against power pushes and mass enthusiasms-du-jour is a workable part of a workable system. While it is not the "perfect" way to represent the best thinking of the citizenry, I would be careful as hell before I pulled that device out of the machinery. It could open the door to unimagined consequences of a seriously undesireable kind; one scenario that comes to mind is the ability of a company to capture the political influence of two large states, say California and New York, through highly focused advertising efforts, and resulting in self-serving legislation bought with marketing efforts and not dampened by the counterweight of the electoral college mechanism.

Perhaps the mechanism can be improved; but let us think long on the requirements, before changing the design, and think long on the design before changing the actual product.

A


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: Kim C
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 01:23 PM

Maybe we should make Election Day a national holiday.


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 01:27 PM

Amos-
The Electoral College has nothing to do with passing legislation. Only with presidential elections.

Doug-
States don't vote for president- individuals do; "undue state influence" is a straw man.

Best, Greg


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: DougR
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 01:27 PM

I disagree, Mousethief. Neither candidate should concede until the absentee ballots are counted. I guess that will be known next Friday.

DougR


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: John Hardly
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 01:39 PM

I suppose by now you heard the clarification from MSNBC last night that the 19,000 ballots did not represent 19,000 VOTES NOT CAST. They were a pile of ballots that WERE REPLACED WHEN PEOPLE REALIZED THEIR MISTAKE. The reason they were initially brought to the public's attention was to illustrate just how confusing the ballot was--NOT TO SAY THAT 19,000 VOTES WERE NOT CAST.

As to Democracy/Republic; The flaw with Democracy is best illustrated by the story of a certain two men and a woman. The one man turns to the other and says "I say we have sex with the woman here--let's put it to a vote".

John


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: Wesley S
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 01:52 PM

In any election I've ever heard of the polls don't close at 7, the polls close when everyone IN LINE at 7 have a chance to vote. But it wouldn't suprise me if some idiots walked away because of mistaken assumptions.


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: Bert
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 01:55 PM

I know in Alabama a few years ago people were turned away and weren't allowed to vote. I don't know if this happened anywhere this time but we should be aware that it is possible.


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: The Shambles
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 02:16 PM

If in some African nation, the son of an ex-president is elected by 330 odd votes, in a state governed by his brother, this despite winning more votes than his rival, how would the outside world view it?

The world looks to the US to get it right. It is very important for all of us that it does.


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: IvanB
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 02:17 PM

John, I must admit I haven't seen the explanation to which your refer and certainly can't find any reference to it anywhere on MSNBC's web site. Every reference I've seen to the 19,000 ballots is that they were ballots thrown out in the process of the ballot count, not that they were replaced at the request of the voter.

That said, I'm not sure of their relevance. It's a basic tenet of election law that, if I spoil my ballot, I can return it to an election official and ask that another be issued. That 19,000 people may have been unaware of this possibility should not, of itself, require any further action. But the reason for the ballots being spoiled in the first place must be taken into account. Were they so poorly designed that a voter could inadvertently spoil the ballot without being aware of it? If that's the case, some corrective action is in order.

As someone who was responsible for designing forms for much of my life, I fully believe that ballots should be designed by trained forms designers, not elected officials. This isn't to say those forms would be perfect, but I bet they'd be a vast improvement over what we deal with now.

And lastly, I fully agree with Bert's comments on poll closings above. In Michigan, the end of the polling line is sealed at 8:00 p.m. and all those in line at that time are allowed to vote. Makes sense to me, and why any state would do it differently is beyond me.


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: katlaughing
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 02:40 PM

For the record, I am in the extreme minority of Wyoming. I would welcome a popular vote, esp. from the more populous states with liberal leanings, might actually bring Wyoming into the 20th century and stop it being like a third world country.

Some people were refused new ballots when they realised they'd made a mistake. That is against the law, as I heard it.

kat


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 03:08 PM

The United States is not a democracy. It never was and is not a democracy. It was not designed or intended as a democracy. It is a republic, wherein the government is carried on by elected representatives of the people. The particular function here, choosing the president and vice president, is no exception: The people elect the Electors, and the electors elect the president, just as the people elect legislators, who create or modify statutes. It would be IMPOSSIBLE to run a country of any size by a democracy, despite the fact that we tend to throw that word around loosely. A village, a town--MAYBE a county might be governed by a democracy, but not anything bigger. You just couldn't get the electorate to the meetings. q.e.d.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: InOBU
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 03:42 PM

Fact is, a number of people DID ask for new ballots when they punched two holes, in panic realizing that they had voted for Buchanan in error. The reason there is to be a court battle is that in many cases they were not given new ballots. There is also the matter of road blocks in Black neighborhoods. It is begining to look more and more like the old south is begining to crawl off the dust bin of history. As to the vote from overseas, there is still a number of absentee votes from American jews from Florida who are presently in Isreal. According to Florida case law, which controls in this matter as a matter of federalizm, when the outcome of a vote can be changed because of an illegal and or confusing ballot, the outcome is thown out. When the diffrence is a few thousand, let alone 327 votes as here, Florida state law would direct a revote in the disputed districts. That's the law, not any disappointment on my part.
Cheersm'dears!,br> Larry


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: DougR
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 04:18 PM

Ivan B: I haven't seen anything on that either, or heard it on TV.

I certainly agree that people in line at the time the polls close, should be allowed to vote. That could easily be monitored.

I haven't actually seen anyone interviewed that said they were refused new ballots after he/she screwed up the first one. I've certainly heard it reported though, by the TV folks. That doesn't always make it true, though. Not saying it didn't happen, but I've seen no credible proof yet. Has anyone else? Could you direct me to it?

DougR


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: Bert
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 04:25 PM

Doug, it was reported on ABCnews.com yesterday, that people had been refused new ballots, but as you say, that doesn't make it true.


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: DougR
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 04:30 PM

Bert: I'd really like to see some positive proof of that. If it really happened, it ain't good. I would think there would be ample witnesses to such an outrage if people were refused second ballots after screwing up the first one.

DougR


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: Frankham
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 04:32 PM

Doug, I think that revising the electoral process is a good one. Just don't expect Jeb Bush to advocate it for Florida.

As to 19,000 voters being stupid, they might have been hoodwinked.

Let's see how it plays out in court.

Frank


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: Bert
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 04:36 PM

Doug,
a lot of these issues are raised locally but not picked up by the national media or by anyone official. That was what happened in the case I mentioned above, about people being turned away in Alabama. There was a big stink in the local paper and in the town where it happened, but nothing more was heard of it.

Bert.


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: DougR
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 06:32 PM

Frank, I sincerely hope that it does not reach the courts. I know that some suits have been filed, but, according to reports I have heard, the like-li-hood of those cases being dismissed are pretty good.

I wish both candidates would pledge NOW, before the total count is official, that the final vote in Florida will determine the outcome of the election.

DougR


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: InOBU
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 07:45 PM

Hi DougR
Thouse votes don't belong to the candadates to pledge one way or the other, they belong to the voters who cast them, and if they were taken away or if the voter is defrauded, it is the voter who has the cause of action to go to court and defend his or her right to choose the president.
In fact, Florida has a better record then I supposed when I wrote this, at overturning badly conducted elections, though, if some hoodwink keeps this out of the court or covers up the results of the will of the people, I stand by my belief that we have an obligation to defend democracy with non-violent resistance.
all the best,
Larry


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: GUEST,MarkS
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 08:12 PM

Does anybody know how the total number voters coming to the polls in Palm Beach compares with the total number of ballots cast?

If the number of voters is, say, 100,000, and the number of total ballots cast is between 100,000 and 119,000, then you can make the case that some people got new ballots and punched them out more than once.
MarkS


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 09:43 PM

The flaw in your argument,Jon,is that electoral college electors are NOT in fact elected by the people. They are appointed by the individual state legislatures.I'm wondering when was the last time you voted for an elector?

"If we were to go to a process where the presidency is determined by the popular vote, just think how much more influence the most populated states would have over those less populated. Elections would always be determined by New York, California, Texas, and the other heavily populated states." says Doug R

Doug,there is no tacit uniformity of political philosophy or rigid agenda for each state.The small business man in Wyoming has far more in common with his counterpart in New Jersey than he does with the factory worker next door.The country has changed since 1798,when whole states and regions were dedicated to institutions such as slavery that rigidly divided them from other states.You cannot proclaim representative government,and then appoint your Chief Executive Officer over the will of the majority of your country's voters.

I advocate changing the rules,but not retroactively.I don't buy the "misleading ballot/hijack the election" argument.If,when the absentee ballots are counted,Gore has lost the popular vote in Florida,he should concede.I see no evidence of fraud or wrong-doing here,only confusion and inaccuracy,and that is not enough to justify a re-vote,or to take the matter into the courts.

LEJ,Gore Voter


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: Greg F.
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 09:56 PM

The States don't come into the equation at all- it is an election for the president and vice president of a single nation by the citizens of that nation. How is any state, as a state, involved in influencing the outcome if we adopt a one-person-one-vote popular system?
Best, Greg


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: DougR
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 11:03 PM

Lonesome E. J., I don't know about how it is handled in your state, but citizens of Arizona do vote for the folks that will cast the electorial vote. I just assumed it is handled that way in all the states, but perhaps not.

DougR


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: JamesJim
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 11:47 PM

Democracy is alive and well. What a great country we live it! There is no crisis, no matter how this thing unfolds. We can't let the Palm Beach folks vote again, when there are thousands all over the country who made the same mistake - voted for someone they didn't intend to vote for. Let the outstanding votes decide it and move on!

JJ


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 01:53 AM

Doug,on further investigation I see that you are correct and apologize for my mistake.However,I think that the primary flaw in the system lies not in the method of elector selection,but in the failure of the system to reflect the selection of the majority of people.In actuality,the electors themselves are intended as mere figureheads.


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: Thyme2dream
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 01:55 AM

Kat, Don't be too quick to get Wyoming into the 20th century...how many drive by shootings did the children in your neighboorhood have to dodge last week?

We thought we'd be "trendy" here in Kansas about 10 years ago and get some more liberal up to date legislation--make our state 'more attractive' and less 'old fashioned'...guess what? We made our state more attractive all right... to gang members from LA and New York, looking for an easy place to hide with nice liberal laws!

Whomever mentioned it: I'm having a real hard time believing that all of a sudden a whole bunch of democrats in one county weren't allowed new ballots after making a mistake...seems to me that a political party whose leader could look America straight in the eye and tell bold faced lies while the party defended and/or dismissed these actions as trivial, could certainly find some loyal partyliners to rile up a bunch of journalists with some half truths and exaggerations!


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: GUEST,Bob S.
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 12:02 PM


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: GUEST,Bob S.
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 12:06 PM

I'll try againn to paste this from another thread:

Just for the hell of it, I guess, some schoolperson gave 74 5th graders a "butterfly" ballot to vote for their favorite Disney characters. They had no problem with it.

The hand count in Palm Beach and 3 other counties is a big joke. It's not just a count but an intepretation by committee of the voters intent.

If I was checking ballots and was backing a particular candidate. I know damn well what the intent is. In fact I wouldn't even have to look.

Bob S. who will reset his cookie some day.


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: DougR
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 12:17 PM

BobS; Thyme2Dream: I couldn't agree with you more.

No problem Lonesome EJ.

DougR


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: InOBU
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 12:27 PM

Hi Bob: If you recall how carefully you did all the new tasks in school as a child, they probubly also did not have the tention of a long line waiting to vote behind them, and more, Goofy won by only 3 votes and Daffy wants a recount!
Cheers!
Larry


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 12:33 PM

Thyme, progress doesn't have to come complete with drive-by shootings. Most social problems are related to wide (in my view obscene) disparities between rich and poor. If a guy works his socks off, or even just as hard as GW Bush (ha ha) and finishes up in poverty, while his neighbours are stinking rich, he'll do something about that if he's got any sense. We only get one shot at this life.

If you want the rich to get richer and the poor to get poorer, which seems to be Dubbya's agenda, and seems to have been happening in Texas of late, build a wall round the rich or put the poor in jail.


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: Thyme2dream
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 03:53 PM

Sorry Fionn, the theory has a few holes in it...most of the people doin the Drive-bys are driving much better cars than I have...even had one a couple months back where the car was a Mercedes. Oh, and the people they are shooting? Poor folks.


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: Frankham
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 05:32 PM

There was a news report today that a box of ballots was stolen from a heavilly Democratic voting county. Now who would want to do a thing like that? :)

Florida is not known for it's lack of irregularities in voting procedures. It is however known for it's ties to corruption and has a history of criminal syndicate activity.

Rather than advance a conspiracy theory here, I would like to see how this might be exonerated by the attention given through the courts.

There is a possibility that the machines in the Palm Beach County area might have been faulty. If in case this is true, should the voters be penalized?

By the way, I saw that butterfly ballot in the newspaper and I think a solution would be for it to be redesigned so that Al Gore's name appears at the top and let's see how many Republicans can use it and get it right. Then we'll find out which block of voters are error prone.

JFK did not steal the election from Richard Nixon because the voting irregularities in Illinois did not account for the lead, however small, JFK had over Nixon. The analogy doesn't work.

The best scenario is to let it play out. The safety net is that if there is no president by Jan 20, the House of Representatives can legally pick one. In the meantime, instead of excusing what took place under Nixon and Kennedy, why don't we let the process go forward and get it right?

Frank

Frank


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: Frankham
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 05:34 PM

I think that instead of penalizing employers by a day of absence from work, we might employ a device used in the Aristophanes comedy, Lysta Strata. How about a day of abstinence? :)

Frank


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: GUEST,Bob S.
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 05:57 PM

Hey, the Democrats didn.t have any problem with the butterfly in Chicago.


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: DougR
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 06:24 PM

Are you implying Chicago Democrats are brighter than Florida Democrats are, Guest Bob S. :>)

DougR


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: GUEST,Bob S
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 07:56 PM


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: GUEST,Bob S
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 07:57 PM

Damn ENTER key.

The Chicago Dems would have had this solved way before the election.


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: campfire
Date: 12 Nov 00 - 12:41 AM

I just find it ironic that Bush is fighting the recount in Florida, but considering asking for one here in Wisconsin. Of course, if he wins Florida, he probably won't.

campfire


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 Nov 00 - 05:16 AM

Why is Bush going to the courts to try and prevent a hand recount in Floria?


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: GUEST,Bob S.
Date: 12 Nov 00 - 06:32 AM

A hand recount is a determination by committee of what a voter was thinking. It is not just a count.

The "counter" can look at a ballot, see no mark for any candadate and say "This person was confused; one for candidate A". In a heavily democrat area would you trust the committee?

Also, after a few hours of this the human tendency is to say "the hell with it, let's go get a beer"

Bob S.


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 Nov 00 - 07:29 AM

In a State run by the opponents brother, would you trust the State?

Thanks for the explanation. It explains a lot but does not make the situation much better. Seems a little ironic that it is Bush taking to the courts first though.

Here we just painstakingly count each one by hand anyway.


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 Nov 00 - 07:43 AM

Where the hell is Floria anyway?

"the hell with it, let's go get a beer"


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 12 Nov 00 - 10:00 AM

Guest Bob S said:
"The "counter" can look at a ballot, see no mark for any candadate and say "This person was confused; one for candidate A"."

Not so. Under the current situation, there's A LOT of people looking over shoulders, and the process has to go on objective criteria.

Now, there is a problem of interpretation that came to my attention this morning: "What about pregnant chads?"

A chad, you need to be advised, is the little piece of paper punched out of the vote-hole. What if it's only partially detached? What if it's only been pushed by the stylus and dented (pregnant chad)? These might be matters of opinion, but if (as I assume there are) there are rules set up in advance on how to treat such instances, it's objective.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: GUEST,Bob S.
Date: 12 Nov 00 - 10:40 AM

Almost true. There are three in a group. In PB there are 6 groups of three right now. Three is not a lot.

Heard this AM that the Dems found a friendly judge in Missouri to keep the polls open for a extra 2 hours. The Reps short cicuited it to 45 minutes.

Also, note that except for a little hollering & yelling things are pretty quiet. No looting. No fire bombings.

Bob S.


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: InOBU
Date: 12 Nov 00 - 10:44 AM

Well, there is talk about a hand count overturning a Gore victory in the sauth west. Unfortuantely, I believe they will find that both sides have cronnies, and when all the hand counts are complete in every state, Gore will have won by 327 votes. Hummmmmmmm


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 12 Nov 00 - 10:54 AM

I take that point Thyme, and it's a puzzle. Because it's a still a fact (with no exceptions that I could quote - others may know some) that as the gap between rich and poor widens, crime rates rise.

We saw it in the UK in the Thatcher and post-Thatcher years, when the gap widened faster than in any developed nation on earth except New Zealand (crime went up even faster in NZ). That still leaves us well short of the gap in the US, by the way.

Needlss to say, the prison population rose under Thatcher, but taking your point again, it was by no means always the poorest who were doing the crime.


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: katlaughing
Date: 12 Nov 00 - 11:14 AM

Doug, I heard it with my own ears, on NPR radio and will go look that program up, if you'd like; the young woman called in, no reporters quoted her, she said herself that she was refused a new ballot. I don't care if one is Dem. GOP, or from the Purple People Eater's Party, that is wrong and should be taken into account.

kat


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: GUEST,tenchu@iolfree.ie
Date: 12 Nov 00 - 11:31 AM

American political leaders are constantly telling the rest of the world that they must engage in democratic government.The tables have been rather turned now that American democracy has been shown to be a sham.I watched George.W.Bush on TV yesterday and he's scarier than Saddam and Milosevic put together.


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: Susan from California
Date: 12 Nov 00 - 02:13 PM

If Bush truly trusts people, not gov't, than he should be all for a hand count where the will of the people can be determined. If the ballot was faulty, do not disenfranchise the voters. If I ever gave a scantron (computer graded) test to my students (which I don't, my tests are all short answer and essay,much to my students chagrin) and the machine kicked out a test as unreadable, I would then grade the test by hand. I wouldn't assign the student a zero, I wouldn't ask all of the students to take the test again.

Hey DougR I have an idea :-) how 'bout splitting Florida's electoral vote? 12.5 each...whadaya think? Should we call both campaigns?


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: DougR
Date: 12 Nov 00 - 03:15 PM

Kat, Susan, no problem. Not to worry. Gore is going to win this election if he has to steal it (and that's what I think his is going to do). They are gonna keep counting till they get a number they like.

Oh well, on to 2004.

DougR


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: GUEST,Ken from Mendocino
Date: 12 Nov 00 - 04:16 PM

it looks like the American election is going to turn out to be the greatest food fight in the history of our nation. The 2 major partys, between which there is hardly a hair's breadth of difference on most issues, will show themselves to be the shallow fools that they are and we Nader supporters will stand aside and laugh.


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: GUEST,frankham
Date: 12 Nov 00 - 05:34 PM

Democracy is not a sham. It's working now.

In spite of the high blown rhetoric about what's good for the country, I think it's important to remember what this is all about. It's a political issue. All the spinning in the world about what's noble and right means little. All the name calling in the world such as suggesting that Democrats are stealing the election, Republicans are being arrogant, etc. etc. is silly. It comes down to this, do we the people want Bush or Gore?

The election isn't over until the fat lady sings.

BTW, Ralph Nader is another politician now. He's thrown his hat into the ring and he is part of the system. He may lose his creditability as a powerful consumer advocate as a result. He will have inadvertently helped Bush to win. Would he make a good president? Some think so and that it their political decision.

As President Clinton so aptly put it, "The people have spoken and it will take time to find out what they mean."

Anger, name calling, high-flown spinning rhetoric...it's all part of the rough world of politics. It's democracy and I love every moment of it because it works.

Nobody said it was going to be easy.

Politics has gotten a bad name now and it's ludicrous for politicians to accuse other politicians of politicizing issues as if they themselves are somehow exempt from the process. I hope the election plays out because I am so happy that people have suddenly woke up from their deep political sleep and are finally engaged.

Isn't this what we want to show the rest of the world, that we care about our political process? Isn't this what our forefathers gave their lives for?

Frank


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: InOBU
Date: 12 Nov 00 - 05:50 PM

Gee DougR:
If Gore really wants to steal anything, I think he needs the Bush bros as advisers, all he has to do is call em up and ask them how the pulled off the old SNL job. How is it stealing an election to make sure those who voted for you don't have their ballots tossed away? What it boils down to... no pun intended, well yes, pun intended... is that Bush is worried that the more accurate the count the less votes he has. - Larry


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: The Shambles
Date: 12 Nov 00 - 05:55 PM

Good stuff......Well yes but is not the root of the problem that the people do not really want either Bush or Gore? But that was the only real choice they were given.

That was the feeling before the election and now I cannot see either of them being accepted by the nation, as used to happen. Will things now ever be as they were? Where now?


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: DougR
Date: 12 Nov 00 - 06:16 PM

Well, Larry, you have a right to your opinion, of course.

Bush won the Florida vote and when the count was done again by machine, he won again. I suppose after this election, the democrats are going to insist that the whole elections process return to hand counting ballots. That seems to be the only way they will recognize an accurate count.

I suppose there is no point in asking if those of you, who are so in favor of Gore's position, think it is fair to check only those votes in the counties where the largest number of democratic voters live. I'm sure you think it is. You probably also think it is fair to have the counters "guess" what the intent of the voter was when questionable ballots are found.

Gore will win, but it's going to be a shabby win. Not a win to be proud of at any rate.

DougR


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: Susan from California
Date: 12 Nov 00 - 08:54 PM

I don't know, even a begining bookkeeper keeps running the numbers until they come out the same twice. I still think the exit polls had it right, when the people were asked who they voted for, they answered. When the machines have been asked, they aren't sure what to say :-)


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: InOBU
Date: 12 Nov 00 - 08:54 PM

Hi Doug: So far there have been numerous instances of first hand accounts of irregularities in Florida directed at potential democratic voters. I have heard of one case where a Republican was turned away from the poles in - I believe it was Michigan. I believe that in a case where the outcome is likely to be changed by investigation of fraud or other unfair voting practices, or missleading ballots - intentional or otherwise - resulting in an election which does not represent the will of the people, then there should be, and in the case of Florida, case law dictates, that appropriate remidies be taken. If that can be applied in states where Gore took the electorial votes, so be it, especialy in a close election. This is not a football game, this is the gravest right we as Americans exersize, the right to choose our leaders. Bush should realize the votes aren't his or Gore's they belong to the American people - and should be treated with reverence and care.
Larry


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: Troll
Date: 12 Nov 00 - 10:23 PM

Doug. There is one consolation. If Gore does win, it will keep Hillary from running in 2004. If he doesn't, her campaign will start the minute the announcment is made.
Yes, I know she said she will serve her six-year term. And I'm an astronaut and on the weekends I sub for the energizer bunny.

troll


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: Troll
Date: 12 Nov 00 - 10:43 PM

I saw a great bumper sticker in S.C. yesterday:
If the Gods had wanted us to vote.
They would have given us candidates.

troll


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 12 Nov 00 - 11:52 PM

My goodness, but you are a scrapper, Doug!!!!

My thoughts:

Florida's Bush, If I remember right, was a biggy in the S&L fraud.

On FOX TV, in a pannel discussion, one of the participants mentioned soulfully that "many people are wondering why this is happening in GW's brother's state..." and was interrupted, fillibustered, cut off and and ignored, until he could 'clarify' his 'agreement with some vague point he had in common with the republican MC.

Florida is synonymous with corruption in politics.

I do not believe, as so many have been saying, that Gore should admit defeat, ie. conceed. If corruption is suspected, we need to set a precedence for ZERO tollerance, not just turn a deaf ear towards it. Those of us that vote feel SOME affection for our system of government, and every effort should be made to get their votes right.

Bush is attempting a 'Coup de'tat', plain and simple.

My inner-most feeling is: He is trying to rush this through, and he is willing to use intimidation, a little because he might lose BUT MOSTLY he is afraid that he might get caught.

IMHO, republicans are trying to wrest the outcome from the hands of due process, and they are showing absolutely no grace, consideration, or HONORABILITY

This little close-up of Bush's "CHARACTER" is sending our fine nation to hell in a handbasket. I pray that he might come to his senses before we find ourselves "over the hill"

All the best from a Nader supporter, ttr


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: Troll
Date: 13 Nov 00 - 12:11 AM

Yes, by all means let us have four more years of the honorable and dignified actions that were so typical of the Clinton administration.With luck, we could have eight years of Gore and then eight of Hillary!
I absolutely agree that "zero tolerance" on corruption is the way to go. So we'll indict Clinton for selling missle technology to the Chinese and Gore for the deal HE made with the Russians to allow them to sell arms to Iran,and...
Oh.
You just want zero tolerance where the Republicans are concerned.
Sorry.

troll


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: GUEST,truckerdave
Date: 13 Nov 00 - 12:49 AM

Well, this may turn out so close after the final count that whatever happens no one can ever say again that thier vote doesn't count. And Mr. Chip Brubaker of Seabreeze Drive, West Palm Beach, Florida your write-in vote for Felix the Cat cost George W. Bush the presidency.


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: DougR
Date: 13 Nov 00 - 01:12 AM

Thomas the Rymer: Perhaps you haven't heard this, but on Meet the Press today, James Carville said that he will not utter the name of your candidate for the next four years! If he comes up to address him, Carville will turn away. If he walks in the room, Carville will leave the room. I suspect Nader is quaking in his boots! He upset James Carville.

DougR


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: The Shambles
Date: 13 Nov 00 - 01:58 AM

"Yes, by all means let us have four more years of the honorable and dignified actions that were so typical of the Clinton administration."

The games that the two parties were playing with the people during that time, are just continuing at the moment. The truth in politics has been accepted as what you can get away with.

No one came out of that with credit. The resulting disenchantment with all of this, is what the people think about it and has produced this result.

A choice between 'the devil and the deep blue sea'.


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 13 Nov 00 - 02:58 AM

IMHO, Clinton has got what it takes to be a great president. He understands more complex issues at the same time than anyone I've seen...

I don't give a rat's ass what his sex life is like.

Those last eight years were all that the popular business party could have asked for... MOST OF THE PEOPLE WERE PROSPEROUS MOST OF THE TIME...

In fact, my guess is that we have become so sedated by our massive consumption patterns, that we have forgotten the awesome CREDABILITY Clinton has in matters of international business incentives, and political science.

Trash him as you may, he has done a fantastic job in the white house, and I for one consider the partison quibbling to be reminiscent of 'chicken little'...

Do any of us honestly believe that "TRICKLE DOWN" was not bankrupting this country for the sake of runnaway imperialism?

But given the choice between Clinton and Nader, I would take Nader's honest assessment of the fallacy behind the assertion that "WHAT IS GOOD FOR BIG BUSINESS IS GOOD FOR THE WORLD'S PEOPLE"

In the words of Nader; "I am not taking votes from Gore, Gore is taking votes from Gore. He is barely holding his own against the most bumbling and incompetent man the republicans have chosen in decades!"

I guess that includes Quayle...ttr


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: Troll
Date: 13 Nov 00 - 07:32 AM

Thomas, it's NOT about his sex life. It's about things like NAFTA and GATT and selling missle technology to the Chinese and NOT sending aid to Rwanda and bombing aspirin factories when he was about to be indicted and a host of other things.
If you think he was a great President, that is your right. I don't think much of your choice, but I expect you knew that.
I agree with Nader that the Republicans could have picked a better candidate. Almost anyone could have beaten Gore except Bush.
What were they thinking of.

troll


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: DougR
Date: 13 Nov 00 - 11:57 AM

It will come as no surprise that I think people are rushing to judgement about Bush. He is described as being incompetent, a bumbler, and if you want other adjectives check out the thread on the bandaid on his face. There is no question but that of the two, Gore comes across as the more polished, better speaker, who verbally transmits his ideas better than Bush does. That does not make Bush an idiot, however, as so many of you believe.

He was elected governor twice by the people of Texas. Does that mean then, that the majority of Texans are idiots also? (I'm sure some of you will have fun with that question).

If he is elected president, and I have already stated that I do not believe he will be, I think he will be a far better president than many people believe at the moment.

DougR


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: InOBU
Date: 13 Nov 00 - 11:19 PM

The people of Texas are idiots? Well... this is the state that took the question to the Supreme Court, "Is it unconstitutional to exicute an innocent man?" Saddly the Supreme Court said "No, it does not offend the constitution to fry him..." So, unfortunately this is not the first time Texas has lowered the national IQ by leaps and bounds. So, In the words of the old Phil Ochs song... Here's to the land you've torn out the heart of ... Texas find yourself another country to be part of... Larry


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: InOBU
Date: 13 Nov 00 - 11:19 PM

The people of Texas are idiots? Well... this is the state that took the question to the Supreme Court, "Is it unconstitutional to exicute an innocent man?" Saddly the Supreme Court said "No, it does not offend the constitution to fry him..." So, unfortunately this is not the first time Texas has lowered the national IQ by leaps and bounds. So, In the words of the old Phil Ochs song... Here's to the land you've torn out the heart of ... Texas find yourself another country to be part of... Larry


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: InOBU
Date: 13 Nov 00 - 11:21 PM

WHoops! Sorry for the accidental double post - feel free to axe the second if you're there Joe :-0


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: Thomas the Rhymer
Date: 14 Nov 00 - 02:00 AM

I didn't mean to imply that I would take personal any political jab at Clinton,... He is not perfect. But when you line him up with the other presidents, and revue what their adgendas were, Clinton shines. Is there ANY republican candidate out there that listens to the world murmer? Policy is generally better when backed by research, is presented carefully, and has some concensus appeal. The republicans of this country seem to have a hard time with these, and generally behave in partisan fashion... closed mindedly... with one eye on buisness leaders, and one hand in corpoation pockets...

...and seldom, if ever, have they considered ANY alternatives to big buisness gluttony. It is like the post WWII celebration never ended... Viagra anyone?ttr


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: Troll
Date: 14 Nov 00 - 02:25 AM

Clinton shines? So does a rotten mackerel in the moonlight.

troll


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: The Shambles
Date: 14 Nov 00 - 02:30 AM

Heard of the BBC this morning. The Republican responsible for the overseas vote here. Sorry didn't catch his name.

Talking about voters and recounts, he said words to effect of, we (the Republicans), have our simpletons too, why shouldn't their vote count as well?


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: InOBU
Date: 14 Nov 00 - 07:32 AM

Dear Troll:
Shines like the longest period of ecconomic growth in the history of this republic. Now, I remember a certain elifantine political party saying that they will not be held responcible for the consiqences of Clinton's ecconomic plans - so don't start with the "we controlled congress" stuff, it was Clinton's direction that led to this boom ecconomy... - All the best, Larry


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: GUEST,Greg F.(remote location)
Date: 14 Nov 00 - 08:51 AM

Well, Troll, Clinton may be no Henry Clay, but you're no John Randolf either. Interesting you should bring up this quote, relating to the "corrupt bargain" between Adams and Clay in the election of 1824- which election was not decided until Feb. 1825 by a vote in the House of Representatives.

Best, Greg


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: rabbitrunning
Date: 14 Nov 00 - 08:57 AM

The paper ran the text of the law that GWB signed in Texas that prefers manual recounts to electronic recounts. It's quite clear.

Now, either GWB doesn't read the laws he signs, or he's willing to cast aspersions on the accuracy of manual recounts for no more reason than that he's afraid to lose the election -- and thereby undermine public confidence in the electoral process and thus WHOEVER wins the election.

Or he's just trying to delay things until the deadline which is being enforced by one of his own.

Either way, he's playing a game of "heads I win, tails you lose," and that's not something that I can respect.

Bring on the courts! At least judges ATTEMPT to be impartial!


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: GUEST,Tiger
Date: 14 Nov 00 - 12:01 PM

WARNING: OT and BS

Fresh off the wire:

Plans for the "neutralization" of our two presidents-elect have been uncovered. Apparently a motley group of high-powered magnates for soap operas and television series, as well as the owners of several football and baseball teams, conspired to assasinate Democratic candidate Gore and Republican candidate Bush, who they argue, in a statement posted on the Internet this morning, "...have maliciously contributed to the hardship of countless families by distracting from the truly American traditions of ingesting at least 6 hours per day of a healthy combination of soaps, sporting events, and other necessary ocular nutrients." Operatives for the group, which calls itself the Media Liberation Front were apprehended by the FBI and the Texas Rangers. The plot was foiled in part by agents of the above mentioned agencies, who have been actively investigating and infiltrating interests which are possibly damaged by the ongoing debate between the candidates.....

Cheers!

Tiger


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: GUEST,Bob S
Date: 14 Nov 00 - 01:43 PM

If they want to hand count ballots they should hand count the whole state, not just Gore's hand picked areas. There were 26,000 ballots tossed in Duval county which is heavily Republican. We need to have those counted also.

As for Clinton directing the economy: No way. The economy directed itself. Supply and demand have stayed in good balance. When they get out of sync the economy will tank. the only person who really has had an affect is Alan Greenspan.

Bob S.


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: InOBU
Date: 14 Nov 00 - 04:56 PM

Ecconomies don't just happen... even a hands off policy takes ajustment and control, contrary to Lazie fairests, the ecconomy is not a force of nature. - Larry


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: InOBU
Date: 14 Nov 00 - 04:56 PM

Ecconomies don't just happen... even a hands off policy takes ajustment and control, contrary to Lazie fairests, the ecconomy is not a force of nature. - Larry


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Nov 00 - 06:21 PM

"If I was checking ballots and was backing a particular candidate. I know damn well what the intent is. In fact I wouldn't even have to look." (BobS)

"I couldn't agree with you more. (DougR)

If I was counting ballots I'd do it honestly. I'd count them trying to respect the rights of the person whose vote it was. I've been present at counts, and have no doubt whatsoever that that is exactly the way that the overwhelming majority ofbthe people doing the counting (by hand of course, there's no other sensible way of doing it)have seen it.

What BobS just said there, and DougR said he agreed with, was equivalent to someone saying "If I was on a jury and someone whom I knew belonged to a party I disagreed with was on trial, I know damn well I'd vote to find them guilty."

I don't actually believe that is what you would do.


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: GUEST,Bob S
Date: 14 Nov 00 - 07:59 PM

That's why they have challenges so potentially biased jurors or kept off the panel. No such chace in PBC

Hell yeah I'm biased. The last jury duty I was called for involved someone suing deep pockets for a mint. I think these mega awards are bull so no jury duty for me.

Before that I was called for a trial and asked if I was an NRA member. I wasn't at the time, but told Mr. lawyer that I once was a member. He wanted no part of me. So us biased people can be kept off juries.

But not hand counts.

Bob S.


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: GUEST,Bob S.
Date: 14 Nov 00 - 08:05 PM

To InOBU:

If you go back and look at economic indicators it can be shown that present "Boom" began in 1982 or so. Using other data it can be shown to begin as far back as the early 1940's.(Does WWII ring a bell)

Nowhere does it appear to be coordinated with Clinton.

Bob S.


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Nov 00 - 09:27 PM

Keeping liars and cheats out of a vote count isn't any harder than keeping them out of a jury. And in case any slip through, you make sure there are are representatives of the candidates keeping an eye on things, and on each other.

Clean elections take place all over the world, and I gather in most parts of the USA. If a state can't guarantee to find honest enough people to count the votes fairly, I'd question the wisdom of allowing it to decide who is going to be president.


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: InOBU
Date: 14 Nov 00 - 11:32 PM

Hmmmmm, well compaired to 1776, we are going steadly forward, and the Bush years, as well as the Great Depression where just a blip on the horizon, and well, ask yourself at the next election, are you doing better than in neolithic times? That's one way to look at it, point to you Bob S.


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Subject: RE: A DAY OF ABSENCE FOR DEMOCRACY
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 15 Nov 00 - 09:30 PM

Neolithic times had their good side, and included some pretty impressive cultures. I think it was Paul Goodman who used to describe himself as a Neolithic Conservative, It might have been Noam Chomsky.

Words like Neolithic are pretty approximate, but America's First Nations before the invaders came in would fall into the category.


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