Amendment XII: How to Elect a President

Subject: Amendment XII: How to Elect a President
From: Kim C
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 11:20 AM

This is straight from the Constitution. See if you can decipher it.

Amendment XII(1804) The electors shall meet in their respective states and vote by ballot for President and Vice-President, one of whom, at least, shall not be an inhabitant of the same state with themselves; they shall name in their ballots the person voted for as President, and in distinct ballots the person voted for as Vice-President, and they shall make distinct lists of all persons voted for as President, and of all persons voted for as Vice-President, and of the number of votes for each, which lists they shall sign and certify, and transmit sealed to the seat of the government of the United States, directed to the President of the Senate;--The President of the Senate shall, in the presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the certificates and the votes shall then be counted;--the person having the greatest number of votes for President, shall be the President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of electors appointed; and if no person have such majority, then from the persons having the highest numbers not exceeding three on the list of those voted for as President, the House of Representatives shall choose immediately, by ballot, the President. But in choosing the President, the votes shall be taken by states, the representation from each state having one vote; a quorum for this purpose shall consist of a member or members from two-thirds of the states, and a majority of all the states shall be necessary to a choice. And if the House of Representatives shall not choose a President whenever the right of choice shall devolve upon them, before the fourth day of March next following, then the Vice-President shall act as President, as in the case of the death or other constitutional disability of the President. The person having the greatest number of votes as Vice-President, shall be the Vice-President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of electors appointed, and if no person have a majority, then from the two highest numbers on the list, the Senate shall choose the Vice-President; a quorum for the purpose shall consist of two-thirds of the whole number of Senators, and a majority of the whole number shall be necessary to a choice. But no person constitutionally ineligible to the office of President shall be eligible to that of Vice-President of the United States.

Now...... can anyone tell me if we actually DO this?

Subject: RE: Amendment XII: How to Elect a President
From: Kim C
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 01:19 PM

Hmmm.... I guess none of y'all can grasp it either. ;)

Subject: RE: Amendment XII: How to Elect a President
From: John Hardly
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 01:25 PM

...we have up until the wrong person may win this way. Now....?

Subject: RE: Amendment XII: How to Elect a President
From: Amos
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 01:33 PM

Whether or not the wrong person may win this way is debatable; if we exclude the additional confusion caused by wrongly cast votes and illegally disqualified voters in Florida, then it has worked sufficinetly well up to the present historical moment.

I had not realized that there was in fact a provision to cover if they couldn't place a President by the fourth of March following; but of course the votes for Vice President probably fall out the same way that the votes for President do, so that provision doesn't seem to have much meaning since we vote for pairs rather than singlets. I guess it makes more sense to think that the clause about the VP being the President refers to the House votes, not the popular or electoral votes. I do not think that part of the system has ever been tested in practice.

A

Subject: RE: Amendment XII: How to Elect a President
From: Kim C
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 02:09 PM

but do we actually do what it says in this amendment? Do the electors actually seal up their results and put them on an airplane to Washington where the President of the Senate opens them? And where is the part about winning all the electoral votes of the state if you win only the majority of them? Maybe it's there and I just don't understand 1804-speak.

Subject: RE: Amendment XII: How to Elect a President
From: Mrrzy
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 02:13 PM

Thomas Jefferson should have done away with the electoral votes as soon as they got him into office...

Isn't this being INTERESTING!

Subject: RE: Amendment XII: How to Elect a President
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 03:20 PM

Yes, we do it that way. The Electoral College never has a meeting.

Remember that when that Amendment was passed it was contemplated that Electors were free to vote their convictions, and might well vote (although I don't know that they did it) for a president/vice-president combination not the choice of the same party.

Since the days of pre-pledged electors there have been only a VERY few cases of electors not following their advance pledge. About half of the states prohibit electors voting for candidates for whom they were not pledged.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Amendment XII: How to Elect a President
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 05:01 PM

The important thing to notice in the above amendment is that it does NOT say how electors get to be electors. That is determined by STATE law.

I believe that in ALL states, electors are first nominated by their political parties. Then MOST states require that ALL their electors must come from the same party whose presidential and vice-presidential candidates receive the most popular votes in that state. The exceptions are Maine and Nebraska, where one elector is chosen for each congressional district, and two more electors are chosen for the state as a whole.

I suppose then, that each party in each state has its own rules about how electors are chosen to represent the party. Generally, the public and the news media take no notice of this process. I don't recall ever seeing a list of the electors' names. We take it for granted that the parties nominate people who are guaranteed to vote for the candidate their party endorsed. As long as this is true, the electoral vote is entirely predictable once you know the popular vote for each state (except that in Maine and Nebraska, you need to know the vote in each congressional district). There have been a couple of instances of "faithless" electors who voted for somebody else, but since it wasn't enough to change the outcome of the election, hardly anybody paid attention.

There has been some speculation about special situations that might induce electors to change their votes. What if the winning candidate died after the general election but before the electors cast their ballots? It seems that then the electors would have a real choice to make.

What if Nader had won one state? The Green Party electors would have nothing to gain by casting their ballots for Nader, but they might have something to gain by striking a deal with one of the other parties.

Subject: RE: Amendment XII: How to Elect a President
From: DougR
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 07:23 PM

Yes, Kim, that's the way it's done.

DougR

Subject: RE: Amendment XII: How to Elect a President
From: Naemanson
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 09:46 PM

You should be careful in reading the laws of the land. The Government does not like to be caught not following its own laws.

Subject: RE: Amendment XII: How to Elect a President
From: JamesJim
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 11:52 PM

Ain't it great?

jj

Subject: RE: Amendment XII: How to Elect a President
From: GUEST,khandu
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 01:22 AM

Until the 1940's, the newly elected prez took office on March 4.Either after or during FDR's administration, it was changed to Jan.20. I do not know the reasoning behind this. I had heard that it was changed because 3-4 falls on a Sunday more often than 1-20. Perhaps, however, it sounded silly to me.

On March 4, 1849, Prez-elect Taylor failed to appear for his inauguration. By law, the presiding prez' term ended at noon on that day. Since Taylor was not sworn in at the proper time, the Speaker of the House became prez in his stead. David Rice Atchinson was President of the US for one day, until Taylor took over March 5.

I have heard two reasons as to why Taylor was late. Howbeit, neither may be correct. One was that 3-4-1849 was on a Sunday and Taylor refused for religious reasons. The other reason given was that Taylor was notified by snail-mail to late that he had been elected, and arrived a day late.

Also, as a side note, I have heard that Atchison was in bed with the flu during his whole "administration"!

So this is a thread creep, but I thought you may find it amusing. :)

khandu

Subject: RE: Amendment XII: How to Elect a President
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 01:39 AM

This was an amendment to the original process.Originally the electors were to vote for the two individuals they considered most qualified without saying whether they were nominating them for Pres or Vice Pres.The first place finisher became the Pres,2nd place was the VP.In 1800,Jefferson and Burr tied for electoral votes,and it went to the House of Representatives.There were 36 ballots taken before it was finally decided that Jefferson would be President,and his opponent,Burr,Vice President.This amendment in 1804 specified separate electoral votes for President and Vice-President.Jefferson,a Populist,continued to decry the Electoral College as "a gunpowder keg with a slow burning fuse".

In 1877,Samuel Tilden needed 1 electoral vote to become President after winning the popular vote,Hayes needed 22 .It was thrown to Congress and Congress was deadlocked about awarding the votes,so they created a special committee to settle it. The committee,composed of 8 Republicans and 7 Democrats,awarded 22 electoral votes to Republican Hayes by an 8 to 7 vote.In 1888,Grover Cleveland won the Popular vote by 100,000 votes,but lost the electoral college vote to Benjamin Harrison.

Subject: RE: Amendment XII: How to Elect a President
From: Banjer
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 06:14 AM

I often wonder what happened to 'Government of, for and by the people' If the popular vote, aka. 'the will of the people' can be overidden by the electoral college what good is the will of the people? Does it make sense for more to vote for candidate A, but candidate B winning the election? Not that it really matters anymore, one crook is as bad as the next, and no matter what they promised during the campaign they won't be able to do it once they take office anyway...

Subject: RE: Amendment XII: How to Elect a President
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 10:42 AM

Here's an article from CompuServe called Electors Could Swing Election and a website devoted to the U.S. Electoral College.

Subject: RE: Amendment XII: How to Elect a President
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 10:55 AM

Woops! Looks like that first link doesn't work. I haven't figured out why. Anyway, here's the National Archives and Records Administration's page about the U. S. Electoral College.

Subject: RE: Amendment XII: How to Elect a President
From: Frankham
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 05:47 PM

Looks like the Amendment XII didn't cover voter fraud or irregularities. This is a new wrinkle.

There has been speculation that eliminating the Electoral College would enhance the possiblity of irregularites and fraud. So what are we dealing with now?

Frank

Subject: RE: Amendment XII: How to Elect a President
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 06:22 PM

The change from March to January for swearing in of the new president was to avoid most of the long delay with a holdover president still in charge but unable to really do anything because of his ruptured-duck status.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: Amendment XII: How to Elect a President
From: Charlie Baum
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 09:39 PM

See also

Amendment XX

Section 1. The terms of the President and Vice President shall end at noon on the 20th day of January, and the terms of Senators and Representatives at noon on the 3d day of January, of the years in which such terms would have ended if this article had not been ratified; and the terms of their successors shall then begin.

Section 2. The Congress shall assemble at least once in every year, and such meeting shall begin at noon on the 3d day of January, unless they shall by law appoint a different day.

Section 3. If, at the time fixed for the beginning of the term of the President, the President elect shall have died, the Vice President elect shall become President. If a President shall not have been chosen before the time fixed for the beginning of his term, or if the President elect shall have failed to qualify, then the Vice President elect shall act as President until a President shall have qualified; and the Congress may by law provide for the case wherein neither a President elect nor a Vice President elect shall have qualified, declaring who shall then act as President, or the manner in which one who is to act shall be selected, and such person shall act accordingly until a President or Vice President shall have qualified.

Section 4. The Congress may by law provide for the case of the death of any of the persons from whom the House of Representatives may choose a President whenever the right of choice shall have devolved upon them, and for the case of the death of any of the persons from whom the Senate may choose a Vice President whenever the right of choice shall have devolved upon them.

Section 5. Sections 1 and 2 shall take effect on the 15th day of October following the ratification of this article.

Section 6. This article shall be inoperative unless it shall have been ratified as an amendment to the Constitution by the legislatures of three-fourths of the several states within seven years from the date of its submission.

and

Amendment XXV

Section 1. In case of the removal of the President from office or of his death or resignation, the Vice President shall become President.

Section 2. Whenever there is a vacancy in the office of the Vice President, the President shall nominate a Vice President who shall take office upon confirmation by a majority vote of both Houses of Congress.

Section 3. Whenever the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that he is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, and until he transmits to them a written declaration to the contrary, such powers and duties shall be discharged by the Vice President as Acting President.

Section 4. Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.

Thereafter, when the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that no inability exists, he shall resume the powers and duties of his office unless the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive department or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit within four days to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office. Thereupon Congress shall decide the issue, assembling within forty-eight hours for that purpose if not in session. If the Congress, within twenty-one days after receipt of the latter written declaration, or, if Congress is not in session, within twenty-one days after Congress is required to assemble, determines by two-thirds vote of both Houses that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall continue to discharge the same as Acting President; otherwise, the President shall resume the powers and duties of his office.

for relevant updates to the U.S. Constitution.