WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!

Subject: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Gary T
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 11:21 AM

Ballot designers come up with a ballot that's confusing and ILLEGAL.

Party officials approve said ballot.

Voters can't follow arrows directly to proper punch hole.

Voters punch two holes, don't think to ask for replacement ballot.

Okay, I'm being testy, but how STUPID do you have to be?

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Kim C
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 11:29 AM

Why is the ballot illegal? I have heard this a couple of times but no one has given any specifics. It's my understanding that such a ballot is used regularly in other states and has been used in Florida before, and was approved by whoever approves that stuff down there.

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: DougR
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 11:34 AM

Kim C: I think the poster is only repeating what the TV pundits have been touting. The ballot is legal. If it were not, there would be no controversy over holding another election in that county.

Arizona used a ballot like that for years, and I would venture a guess that the county in question has too. The only change in the ballot that I have heard about on TV, is the print was larger because so many older people live in that county. That should not make it illegal.

DougR

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: MiriamKilmer
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 11:36 AM

Why is the ballot illegal? The story is in The Washington Post this morning. The place where you mark your vote must be on the RIGHT side of name of each candidate.

Some people did ask for a replacement ballot and were refused. That, too, was illegal.

In Virginia, you can't make that mistake; you vote by machine, and pushing a second button where only one vote is allowed cancels the first one. Thank you, Virginia! Otherwise I would have had to ask for a replacement ballot. I'm a (former) card-carying member of Mensa. I do make mistakes, and I am quite happy to admit when I have done so. Some people have been conditioned not to admit when they have made mistakes. There seems to be a lot of that going around (sigh).

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Gary T
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 11:36 AM

What I heard is that Florida law specifies that the place to mark or punch is to be to the right of the candidates name. On the ballot in question, said places were in the center or hinge area of the booklet, and some candidates were listed on the right-hand page, thus the place to mark for them was to the left of their names.

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: MiriamKilmer
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 11:43 AM

Right. Well stated. The printed ballot looked fine until you took it to where you punch the holes. All the hole-punching places were in the middle, between the two columns of candidate's names. This I got from my sister, who voted in palm Beach County and studied the ballot VERY CAREFULLY before voting. She's a Mensan. You should not have to be a Mensan to vote in this country.

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Kim C
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 11:46 AM

On a butterfly-style ballot, ALL the punch holes are in the middle, with the names to the left and right of said holes. Please forgive this unfrozen caveman - I don't understand about the ways of the paper ballot since my district always uses a machine.

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 11:48 AM

Yep, it's a colossal mess all right. I guess the "easily confused" should have the right to vote for their candidate of choice, but the rest of the stuff is totally predictable.

Bush Camp (seemingly the winner) realizing that the best defence is a good offence, start naming their Cabinet,

Gore Camp let their supporters do the screaming and then will claim that the "American People" want them to fight to the bitter end.

Ted Turner (CNN) will get huge ratings for months to come.

They needed a new "OJ ratings grab issue" and they've got it.

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Gary T
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 11:53 AM

On a side note, Kansas City uses butterfly ballots. I don't know if there is a regulation like in Florida that specifies whether the place to mark must be on the right, but every right-hand page says only "Turn page for the next selection" or some such--nothing to vote on is listed on those pages. More pages to turn, but it eliminates the type of problem Palm Beach County had.

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Jon W.
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 12:03 PM

While the ballot technically did not comply with the Florida statelaw, I believe it was designed with good intentions in mind to aid the elderly voters with poorer than average eyesight. It was designed by a Democrat, approved by all parties before the elections, and in fact is the type of ballot commonly used in many if not most areas of the country. I still think there must have been a lot of voters who hadn't been in a polling booth for years, and those are the ones who were most easily confused. This makes another good argument for each citizen voting in every election. You know, we have one every year, and two elections in most states every other year. Even if it is just for the city council or school board member, get out there and vote so at least you'll know how it's done. And let's take some steps to replace the 30-year-old punched card technology (if that's part of the problem) and to better train the polling place officials. The fact that a recount can produce such a big change (and a net increase in total votes) needs some explanation.

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Charlie Baum
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 12:12 PM

An additional ballot illegality:
Florida law is clear about the order of candidates on the ballot.
The party of the governor is at the top.
The next major party is below that.
Minor parties are to follow the major parties (each party in order of the number of votes received in the previous election for governor).

On the Palm Beach County ballot, the top punch hole was for Republicans (Bush-Cheney). The second punch hole was for the Reform Party (Buchanan-Foster). The third hole down was for Democrats (Gore-Lieberman). Democrats are required to have the second hole--the one for Buchanan and the (stolen) Reform party.

Combine that with the confusing design of the "butterfly ballot" and you have a recipe for disaster.

How stupid do you have to be? As stupid as George W. "Social Security isn't a Federal program" Bush.

--Charlie Baum

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: RWilhelm
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 12:22 PM

The biggest problem with all of this is, regardless of who is finally elected, 49% of the country will feel the election was stolen. A victory by technicality or by legal decision will not be accepted by the losing side. The period between the election and inauguration is usually a period of healing with bi-partisan endorsement of the president-elect. The new president will not even have that little "honeymoon." The partisan politics that both sides wanted to end will be magnified beyond belief.

The time has come for reasonable, patriotic people from both parties to sit down and work out a solution, for the good of the nation, where most of the losing voters can say "we lost but it was a fair fight." The problem is there are no reasonable, patriotic people among the Republicans and Democrats.

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: MiriamKilmer
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 12:29 PM

I resemble that remark.

Actually I just joined the Virginia Greens, so I guess I can be reasonable and patriotic. Right?

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 12:43 PM

Earl said: "A victory by technicality or by legal decision will not be accepted by the losing side."

An election is a technical process. If there is illegality in that process, the process of our government MAY involve a decision by the courts. It's just the way things are designed to work. A party (meaning either an individual or perhaps, in this case, a political party) who feels aggrieved by what is seen as a violation of the law (election law or some other law) is entitled to take the dispute to the courts. That is what they are there for: The court is meant to resolve controversies in accordance with the law as it stands. That's technical, all right, but no more so than an uncontested election, and no more unacceptable.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Bert
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 12:46 PM

Virginia Greens? They anything like Brussels Sprouts?

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: mousethief
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 12:57 PM

I've heard of greasy greens from a Pink Anderson CD. Perhaps they are from Virginia?

I think it's time for Gore to admit defeat. Every day he holds on from now on, he'll look like more and more of a jerk. And I voted for the man, so this is not some sort of crowing by the winning side.

The great thing about this election, at least in our family, is how much the kids are learning about the political process. They tacked the big Rand McNally map of the USA up on the wall, and marked off the states with dry-erase markers when they were decided for one candidate or the other.

But about the incompetence of people who couldn't figure out the ballot: it's easy for people who have no visual-spacial problems to look at the ballot and say it's easy to figure out. People like my wife, who is VERY smart, yet who needs separate driving directions for the trip there and the trip back, have a much harder time with visual-spacial stuff. She looked at the ballot and said, "this is horrible -- why didn't they usability test this?" Maybe this election will be the election in which usability testing of ballots is born -- which would not be a bad thing.

Meanwhile, give it up, Al.

Hillary and Tipper in 2004. Rah.

-Alex
O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: MiriamKilmer
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 12:57 PM

NO, more like "Poke Sallet." We had a Poke Sallet thread on the [e-mail] mailing list a while ago. Let me know if I should elaborate. (That list is no longer archived.)

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: GUEST,Stackley
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 01:06 PM

"Kim C: I think the poster is only repeating what the TV pundits have been touting. The ballot is legal. ... The only change in the ballot that I have heard about on TV, is the print was larger because so many older people live in that county. That should not make it illegal.

DougR"

That's right, Rodney- the TV Punditocracy you disagree with are spouting bullsh*t. The TV Punditocracy you agree with are fountains of truth. Please. Give it a rest.
Cheers.

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: RWilhelm
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 01:10 PM

I understand that an election is a legal, technical thing. I also realize that this thing could be in the courts for months. In the meantine there is already talk of recounting Iowa, Wisconson and New Mexico. This is the way the system works, it is also the road to long-term bitterness.

I don't really care who wins. I just wonder if the country is best served by both sides digging in their heels at this point.

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: DougR
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 01:30 PM

Guest Stackely: I addressed your personal remarks about me in another thread.

But I do thank you for those posted above. I'm sure they make you feel better.

DougR

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Kim C
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 01:47 PM

Isn't the deal that if the Electoral College can't decide, then the House has to vote?

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: John Hardly
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 02:01 PM

Stackley,

We can hear you--you don't need to shout.

Thanks,

John

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 02:48 PM

That's right: If the Electoral College is evenly divided, the outgoing House (not the new House) decides.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 02:51 PM

Not that there seems to be much danger of the Electoral College being divided equally this time.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Gary T
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 02:58 PM

John--I interpreted Stackley's italics as setting apart the quotations from others. I've always heard that all caps are construed to be shouting.

Kim--That's my understanding, too--the House takes over the process if the Electoral College can't reach a decision.

Alex--Though I too would rather have Gore than Bush, I agree that it might be wiser for him to concede. I wouldn't be surprised if there are irregularities in many, perhaps most, states. If Bush wanted to be a jerk about it, he could petition for recounts in some of them. How picky do we want to get about the vote tallies in every precinct? Gore could start to look unduly picky and ungracious if he pushes too hard here.

I hope my original comments were not offensive to you or your wife, or to anyone for that matter. I was being a bit extreme in making a point. It does seem to me that it would have been very easy to construct a ballot that would not lend itself to this type of confusion.

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Grab
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 03:17 PM

I'm just curious - what's with this ballot? In the UK we simply have a sheet of paper with the names on it. Mark a cross next to the name, and drop it in the box. Total technology required: 1 biro, 1 sheet of paper, 1 box, 1 padlock. What's this machine business - just a fancy way of replacing the biro?

Grab.

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: mousethief
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 03:21 PM

Perhaps not easy to construct a punch-hole ballot. Maybe (as was said somewhere either on this thread or another) it's time to retire the punch-hole ballot. They interviewed an election official last night who said when you run a stack of punch-hole ballots through the counting machine 10 times, you are likely to get 7 different counts. This is how we elect our officials in this country? Frightening.

I wasn't offended. But I would like people who are physically and mentally typical or normal (you "perfect" people) to think about the handicapped, learning-disabled, etc. before pronouncing that something is "easy" or that only a "moron" or "incompetent" could screw up.

But what do I know? I like folk music.

Alex
O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 03:33 PM

Grab:

Remember that on each ballot there are many--maybe I should say many, many--elections going on at the same time. Here in Indianapolis, there was, of course, the presidential/vice-presidential vote; United States Senator (one of two for the State of Indiana, the other one to be elected three years from now); a vote for Representative to the House (one such to each district,so a single choice for a voter); Governor of Indiana; Lt. Governor; Attorney General of the State of Indiana; a multiple choice, vote for 17 out of 23 candidates for judgeships; two special voter referenda; various representaties to the State Legislature; and I forget what else, especially on the state level.

Doing all this by paper ballot is just begging for confusion and/or fraud, as well as being an extremely slow and expensive process.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: harpmolly
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 03:42 PM

Talk about confusing...here in Oregon we had TWO ballots, one for candidates and one for measures (the petition-solicitors were busy this year!). Luckily, the individual design was more or less straightforward filling in of an oval. Sheesh...I thought I was done with the SATs ten years ago...

Moll

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Frankham
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 04:25 PM

What makes it iffy as a legal device is that in some cases the holes didn't line up properly.

There is a box ballots missing. (252) Is this legal?

Haitians were turned away from the voting boothes. Is this legal?

It's not a matter of just being stupid. It's a matter of questionable procedures. Don't take my word for it. Wait until it turns up in a court of law.

I don't think Americans need to be in a hurry to administer justice in electing a president.

Frank

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: mousethief
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 04:48 PM

Golly, I couldn't find anything online on the news services (MSNBC, CNN, ABC, YAHOO, -- any others I should check?) about people not being given a ballot after they ruined theirs. But ALL of the sites I looked at seem to think the 19,120 ballots thrown out were actual ballots, not mistakes that were later replaced. Not sure where this other idea came from but I can't verify it online. Sure looks like 19k+ voters had their ballots tossed. (see this clicky) (Not saying if they should or shouldn't, or if it was their fault or someone else's if they goofed up.)

Alex
O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Quincy
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 05:39 PM

Well I'm not surprised some poor people had problems with the ballot paper?! Sure I would have done too if I was faced with this!! ;)

Florida Ballot

best wishes, Yvonne

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: DougR
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 06:27 PM

Mousethief, I don't believe anyone is challenging whether or not around 19,000 ballots were invalidated because two votes were recorded for a president. I think that did happen. As I understand it, in any state, the procedure for dealing with ballots like that is they are not counted and are destroyed.

I certainly have not heard or seen anything that would indicate that that number was replaced though.

DougR

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: mousethief
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 08:38 PM

Doug, somebody in another thread said (or at least seemed to me to have said) that the ballots in question were not elmininated in the count, but rather were ballots that people screwed up and then asked for another. In other words, these were the first ballots of people who got 2, and thus weren't eligible to be counted at all. That's how I read what was said, anyway. WHich is 100% false.

I can't believe they'd be destroyed (before any and all other ballots from this election), however, because even though they voted for 2 presidential candidates and thus voided THAT vote, the ballots are still valid for the other various races the people voted on. Don't you think?

Of course you're right Gore can't throw in the towel until all the absentee ballots are counted as well -- which makes me whish James "Let's mow down the forests cos Jesus is coming soon so it doesn't matter anyway" Baker would shut up and stop calling for Gore to concede.

As to the vote thing in Palm Beach, I think Gore should back way off, and let the people there handle the problem one way or the other. If they feel they have been disenfranchised, it's their call to sue or not to sue; Gore should stay completely out of it, both because it's really none of his business (it's between the state of Florida and the people in question), and to avoid unseemly appearances.

That's what I think right now, anyway, about these various issues.

And thanks everybody who has wished me a broken leg in my "wish me luck" thread! You guys are the greatest.

Alex
O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: MarkS
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 08:50 PM

How come the ballots were confusing only in Palm Beach? Was some other system used elsewhere in the State or were the rednecks in the panhandle smarter than the sophisticates in Palm Beach?
MarkS

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: DonMeixner
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 09:29 PM

Re: Ballots and their design.

I understand that a ballot and the the choice of how the ballot will be taken is left up to the counties in which the the ballots will be used. Some counties use machines others use papre and boxes. There is no apparent national standard as to design and method of voting. Except that privacy will be insured to discourage tampering.

The Palm Spa ballot design was to be A vertical row of names top to bttom, names on the left, punchouts or holes to the right. This ballot had names on both sides and holes in the center. Also the candidates where to be listed in order of national importance. Altho how it was decided wether Republicans or democrats were to be on I don't know. I have heard, not seen, that Buchannan was second and Gore was third in line.

The design was probably illegal based on the criteria I had read. But thats a small price to pay for this amazing entertainment.

Don

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: DougR
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 11:07 PM

Alex, of course you are right. I shouldn't have assumed that the disallowed ballots were destroyed. I have no idea what happens to them. I do think that those who voted twice were not allowed to vote again, and I think that is appropriate.

DougR

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: MiriamKilmer
Date: 10 Nov 00 - 11:22 PM

Those who double-punched their ballots and then realized their mistake were *supposed* to request another ballot, and *hand in* the ruined ballot. Thus they would only be voting once. That's the law, and there were signs up in at least some of the polling places to that effect. However, people don't always read signs.

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Banjer
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 06:43 AM

To solve once and for all this confusing maze of mixed up madness I offer the following suggestion. Since the outcome won't make much of a difference, no promises made will be kept anyway, there is not much sense in going thru all the wasted time and additional expense of re-elections or recounts. Two words....BOXING GLOVES....may the winner of the bout enjoy his four years of glory in the White House!

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Naemanson
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 07:57 AM

Grab, you asked about voting machines. Well, this is America. It doesn't have any validity unless it's done by machine. Give someone a pencil and a piece of paper and you will get a blank look. (Written by someone who voted with a felt tip pen and a piece of paper in a small town in Maine!)

Frank and several others have mentioned rumors of missing ballot boxes and people turned away from voting. I would like to see the official sources of these stories. Were they recounted in newspapers, magazines and/or TV reports?

Lets keep our heads people! It was a typical election in the good old USA. There were millions of ballots cast in hundreds of thousands of ballot boxes. Typically some people get turned away from voting because of problems with registry or citizenship all the time. With all those boxes to keep track of one or two may actually disappear for whatever reason.

These rumors surface after every election. In this tense atmosphere surrounding a close election it only takes one missing box or one person turned away from the polls. Rumor will blow that up into a missed tie breaker.

Face it! The American people have spoken and the message was a clear and definite "Maybe!".

(Actually the funniest thing to come out of this election follows:

----- Florida dumped from Union

WASHINGTON D.C. - Following an emergency meeting Wednesday morning, Congress unanimously voted to excise Florida from the United States of America.

The move was a reaction to the confusion and irregularities in the state's voting numbers that have totally disrupted the 2000 Presidential election.

"This is the last straw," said Utah senator Orin Hatch. "First Elian Gonzales, now this."

Several congressmen told reporters the decision has been a long time in coming.

"We're all pretty much sick of Florida," said representative Barney Frank. "They've been a constant embarrassment for too long now."

Added Frank, "They had Dan Marino for a while, but what have they done lately? Oh that's right, screw up our entire democracy. I forgot"

In a speech on the Senate floor, Massachusetts senator Ted Kennedy commented that the loss of Florida's sizable elderly population will free up billions of dollars in social security funds.

"These are valuable funds which can now be redirected toward national defense. We can finally rebuild our demoralized, weakened military," said the Senator to roaring applause.

From her New York campaign headquarters, freshly elected senator Hilary Clinton echoes the sentiments of her future colleagues on Capitol Hill, calling Florida "a hurricane-addled hellhole full of scheming Cuban immigrants."

"Learn English already, you banana boat bums," Clinton added.

As a result of the Florida screw-up, the House and Senate decreed a new election will take place in early December. This time, ballots in each state will be tabulated by robots.

"It is clear that our human vote-counting system is too inherently flawed," said Speaker of the House Dennis Hastert. "The presence of these new, superior robot mast- err, I mean - tabulators will ensure 100% accuracy."

"Remember," said Hastert, "every vote counts, especially if it's counted by robots."

Dynamiting will begin in Florida next Wednesday, after which the state will be completely geographically separated from the United States.

"After that, they're on their own," said Hastert. "I hope they sink.")

Apologies to our Florida brothers and sisters.

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: GUEST,(Edgar A.)--Art Thieme
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 11:08 AM

Stupidity, as well as brilliance, is the prerogative of the human animal. Watching the interaction between the two is part of the fun of it.

As Lee Hayes once said, "This too shall pass. I've had gas, and I know."

Art Thieme

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: GUEST,Bob S.
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 11:10 AM

Just for the hell of it, I guess, some schoolperson gave 74 5th graders a "butterfly" ballot to vote for their favorite Disney characters. They had no problem with it.

The hand count in Palm Beach and 3 other counties is a big joke. It's not just a count but an intepretation by committee of the voters intent.

If I was checking ballots and was backing a particular candidate. I know damn well what the intent is. In fact I wouldn't even have to look.

Bob S. who will reset his cookie some day.

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: DougR
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 12:23 PM

That's funny Naemanson! You might give a second thought to that Florida vacation, though.

DougR

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Gary T
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 02:40 PM

Or at least get a passport first.

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Little Hawk
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 03:29 PM

Ha! Ha! Ha! I'm in Canada. I laugh. It's bad here too, but NOT THAT BAD. Hee! Hee! (evil grin)

- LH

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Frankham
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 05:54 PM

I saw the butterfly ballot in the newspaper. I think that a good solution would be to redesign the ballot for another election in Florida where Al Gore's name would be printed on top near the first hole. Put Bush's name third and lets see how many Republicans get it right. This would be fair.

Speaking of fair, it's not mentioned in the Constitution but in state elections, run-offs are common. Why not a run-off election for the Pres.? It's a little taxpayer money involved but not as expensive as Bush's ABM misille system that he is advocating.

Frank

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 06:28 PM

Runoff might be fine, but at least as of now we don't have a tie. It is to be presumed that one or the other will win the count, so no runoff is justified.

The court option (if required) will be to decide if the counted results give an accuate and legal picture of the electorate's will, so a court decree would not be frustrating the public will but enabling it.

Dave Oesterreich

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: rube1
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 08:31 PM

All this scrutiny is embarrassing to Floridians who had no problem following directions and/or arrows on the ballot, but the logical end of this recount process is not likely to end in Florida. The disgraceful innuendoes about Bush's brother Jeb fixing the election notwithstanding, (originating, as I understand it, directly from Gore's comment to Bush in the second phone call, "This is not something your brother can fix.") the truth is that there are always problems and errors in any election, and the harder you look for errors, the more you are likely to find. I do not believe the stories of people, Haitians or others being turned away and not allowed to vote. That is bullshit. All precincts are not set up to register new voters on election day. If they were trying to register in the crush of an election crowd, maybe then they were turned away and that's just too bad for them, if that happened, but if they were registered, no way were they turned away. If every other state where the voting was close had to endure this kind of scrutiny, I believe we would see some wildly fluctuating numbers. If it comes to that, at some point the arbitration must pass from the state to the federal, and then, what institution will provide the final arbitration? Janet Reno's justice department? A baffling civics question. I don't have any answers but I really resent comedians and commentators impugning the honor of the governor of my state with absolutely no justification. He doesn't deserve it and Gore can go pound sand.

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: Mark Cohen
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 09:08 PM

Little Hawk, you must not live in B.C.!
Earl, I think you're right, with one important correction. You said, 49% of the country will think the election was stolen. Sadly, what you mean is 49% or so of the 50% (more or less) of eligible voters who actually voted. Maybe it's time to make election day a national holiday, so we have a fighting chance of a participatory democracy. Then again, maybe it's time for some non-Bozos to run. But I've always maintained that anyone who is smart enough to make a good President is too smart to run.

Aloha,
Mark

Subject: RE: WHAT a bunch of INCOMPETENTS!
From: catspaw49
Date: 11 Nov 00 - 09:31 PM

I've read a lot of the threads on this shinola and I've had a lot of time the past few days to listen to all the many news types and other talking heads and this has only been lightly touched on, so.....................

Whatever happens this time, one thing seems kinda' obvious to me and it may be the thing that looks a bit ridiculous to the world. This is a Federal Republic and the "process" has basically worked except for this stupid ballot glitch. It strikes me that we are arguably the most technologically advanced country in the world and yet we are dickin' around with this 50's and earlier technology of punch cards in an awful lot of the country....not just Florida.

Couldn't we cancel the order on half a dozen new tanks that are pretty much wasted on a battlefield anyway (helicopters) and invest in supplying a standardized, reliable, NEW, voting machines to every precinct in the country? I've seen several late model designs that are being used and I don't think it would be asking too much to INVEST in the process and avoid this kinda' dumbass thing next time. No more crossword ballots.....the entire country would be the same. Am I the only one who thinks this might solve a few problems down the road?

Spaw