Lyr Add: Candle in the Wind (Elton John)

Subject: Lyr Add: CANDLE IN THE WIND (from Elton John)
From: Squid
Date: 07 Sep 97 - 06:25 PM

They say they expect this to pass Bing Crosby's White Christmas to become the best-selling song of all time.

CANDLE IN THE WIND, as performed at Westminster Abbey by Elton John:

Goodbye, England's rose; may you ever grow in our hearts.
You were the grace that placed itself where lives were torn apart.
You called out to our country, and you whispered to those in pain.
Now you belong to heaven, and the stars spell out your name.

And it seems to me you lived your life like a candle in the wind:
Never fading with the sunset when the rain set in.
And your footsteps will always fall here, along England's greenest hills;
Your candle's burned out long before your legend ever will.

Loveliness we've lost; these empty days without your smile.
This torch we'll always carry for our nation's golden child.
Even though we try, the truth brings us to tears;
All our words cannot express the joy you brought us through the years.

And it seems to me you lived your life like a candle in the wind:
Never fading with the sunset when the rain set in.
And your footsteps will always fall here, along England's greenest hills;
Your candle's burned out long before your legend ever will.

Goodbye, England's rose; may you ever grow in our hearts.
You were the grace that placed itself where lives were torn apart.
Goodbye, England's rose, from a country lost without your soul,
Who'll miss the wings of your compassion more than you'll ever know.

And it seems to me you lived your life like a candle in the wind:
Never fading with the sunset when the rain set in.
And your footsteps will always fall here, along England's greenest hills;
Your candle's burned out long before your legend ever will.

HTML line breaks added. --JoeClone, 17-May-02.

Subject: RE: Goodbye, England's Rose
From:
Date: 07 Sep 97 - 06:48 PM

Now, if someone will only write a song about Mother Theresa.

Subject: RE: Goodbye, England's Rose
From: Shula
Date: 07 Sep 97 - 10:03 PM

Tim Jacques : Perhaps greater depth requires greater thought, not to say, time, in the composition of a suitable memorial.

As to Elton John's contribution, I know he hadn't much time, but I do wish he had started with better material. WHATEVER he sang was sure to have been huge. I'd have wished for something more specific about the princess in the lyrics.

Personally, I was put in mind of Ben Jonson's "Have You Seen But a White Lilly Grow?" from F. H. Potter"s "Reliquary of English Song." It embodies the fragility of innocence.

Shula

Subject: Lyr Add: A PRINCELY DITTY, IN PRAISE OF THE ...
From: Shula
Date: 07 Sep 97 - 10:20 PM

Just came on this while wandering around in the Sixteenth Century Ballads site,
http://pbm.com/~lindahl/ballads/ballads.html, thought it apropos:

A PRINCELY DITTY, IN PRAISE OF THE ENGLISH ROSE.
(Translated out of French.)

Among the Princely Paragons,
bedect with dainty Diamonds,
Within mine eye, none doth come nie,
the sweet red Rose of England,
The Lillies passe in brauery,
in Flanders, Spain, and Italy:
But yet the famous flower of France doth honour the Rose of England.

As I abroad was walking,
I heard the small birds talking:
And euery one did frame her Song
in praise of the Rose of England,
The Lillies, &c.

Cæsar may vant of Victories,
and Crœsus of his happinesse:
But he were blest, that might bear in his brest
the sweet red Rose of England,
The Lillies, &c.

The brauest Lute bring hither,
and let vs sing together:
While I do ring on euery string,
the praise of the Rose of England,
The Lillies, &c.

The sweet Perfumes and Spices,
the wise men brought to Iesus:
Did neuer smell a quarter so well
as doth the Rose of England,
The Lillies, &c.

Then faire and princely flower,
that ouer my heart doth tower,
None may be compared to thee,
which art the fair Rose of England.
The Lillies, &c.

Shula

Subject: RE: Goodbye, England's Rose
From: Shula
Date: 08 Sep 97 - 04:04 AM

Sorry to post three times running. Just wondered if anyone knew the words to the recessional ( sung to the tune of "Danny Boy") that was sung by the boy's choir at the funeral. Liked that better than the Elton John.

Thanks,

Shula

Subject: RE: Goodbye, England's Rose
From: Laoise
Date: 08 Sep 97 - 04:27 AM

I'm sorry to disagree here, Shula, but I think that Elton John's rewritten Candle in the Wind was very fitting for this tragic occasion. Like the late Diana, it has always been a favourite song of mine since childhood. It's frightening to think that it should be sung at her funeral but it contained all the right ingredients, nostalgia, tenderness and power. It was extremely well performed - how he didn't break down in the middle of it I will never know.

I'm still in tears when I read it.

Laoise.

Subject: RE: Goodbye, England's Rose
From: Shula
Date: 08 Sep 97 - 05:27 AM

Perhaps what bothers me most is the re-working of a song associated with Marilyn Monroe for the princess. Rather like a hand-me down frock. Even so, would have liked it, right enough, if MORE had been re-written, and LESS had been re-peated. I wanted a closer "fit," but from the response, others were better satisfied than I. Didn't hate it or think it out of place, though.

" The King Of Love My Shepherd Is," (my favorite hymn and hymn-tune, despite the fact that I am observantly Jewish), and the Verdi, had me weeping aforehand, and I like to fancy myself something of a cynic! No denying the authenticity of the sentiment, both from Mr. John and from his global audience. Wait a bit, though, and see if when they've done playing it to death, you don't long for a fresher verse or two. Hope I've not given offense.

Still badly want to know the words to that final choir piece. Any suggestions?

Shula

P.S. Dialects being a fascination of mine, always enjoy your postings, esp. the series that introduced, "Skundered" -- as Emily Dickenson would have said: Now, there's a word to lift your hat to!

Subject: RE: Goodbye, England's Rose
From: Laoise
Date: 08 Sep 97 - 07:34 AM

Gabh raibh maith agat Shula.

I didn't mean to criticise, its just that I like that song and thought that it had exactly the right sentiments. Any song overplayed, however, becomes a pain the the 'tuchus' and I'm sure we'll get sick of this as time goes on.

In a way, the two lives, that of Marilyn Monroe and Diana were similar. They were both subjected to huge media persecution and were both "used" by the respective establishments. Interestingly, over here there is speculation that MI5 could have been involved. What does that remind you of?

I am un-observantly Jewish living in Belfast. I always thought Yiddish was the best language for producing words which cannot be explained fully in English. Irish gaelic is the same. I'm not sure of the origins of the word 'Skundered' but it has those expressive qualities of Yiddish words. There are also some excellent phrases here "Catch yerself on" meaning wise up, "what about ye" shortened to "'bout ye" as introduced by Alison over in Aussieland means how are you doing. Another phrase I like describes miserly people - "he/she wouldn't give you the steam off her p**s" and for lazy people - "he/she wouldn't walk the length of him/herself".

Sorry, I never got that final choir piece as I never got to see the whole service (too busy playing trad). You've got me interested though.

Slan go foill

Laoise

Subject: RE: Goodbye, England's Rose
From: Peter T.
Date: 08 Sep 97 - 10:35 AM

I am with Shula on this one. The original song is quite lovely, and it was trashed by its own authors, who have been working with Disney too long. Not only does the rewrite make no sense -- what is the grammar of "never fading with the sunset when the rain set in"? -- but the new words (unlike the old) are terrible cliches. The worst part is the crummy borrowing from Blake's Jerusalem, footsteps falling on Englands greenest hills! Come on. I merely touch on the fact that Diana was a city person if there ever was one. Torch, wings of compassion, rose in our hearts. Yuucch. The only decent piece of poetry is the line about being placed where lives were torn apart. The rest is a mess. The music that interested me was the Taverner piece, that built towards the moment of silence. I am told he wrote it for a friend who died recently in an accident. I would certainly listen to that again.

Subject: RE: Goodbye, England's Rose
From: Shula
Date: 08 Sep 97 - 10:48 AM

Dear Laoise,

Much obliged for the charming examples of Irish slang!

Knew from "The Seder Nite Rap" thread that tha' wer'a "landsman." Like many in the colonies, I'm a mutt; religiously Jewish, ethnically a Euro-American crazy-quilt of French, Scots, English, Welsh, Irish, and German.

In fact, though my Maternal Grandfather died a British citizen, and "kvelled" all his life long, that his Scottish mother was DISTANTLY related to the Queen Mum, I know virtually nothing of Gaelic, except that, like Yiddish, Gaelic can be guttural and silken by turns, and that some dandy tunes have Gaelic lyrics. Every time you post a greeting, or sign off in Irish, I ache to know what you have said. Do, please, in future, give a translation for those of us who are linguistically challenged!

As we're on about the funeral, wouldn't have seen it all myself, as it was Shabbos here, but for a nifty little gadget called a VCR. Heard you have them in the "mitherland" as well; bet someone you know taped the whole "megillah" for a keepsake!

Shalom Aleichem,

Shula

Subject: RE: Goodbye, England's Rose
From: Shula
Date: 08 Sep 97 - 11:27 AM

Dear Peter T.,

If the Taverner piece was the one which preceded the moment of silence, was that what the choir was singing to "Danny Boy," or did it follow? Wish now that I hadn't copied over the tape.

It could be cogently argued that it takes a bit o' doin' to steal a cliché worthy o' the name from Wm. Blake! And him with all those juicy metaphors t' plunder!

Dear Peter T.,

If the Taverner piece was the one which preceded the moment of silence, was it that the choir was singing to "Danny Boy," or did it follow? Wish now that I hadn't copied over the tape.

While your analysis is a tad unkind, it is apt. (Though it could be cogently argued that it takes a bit o' doin' to steal a cliché worthy o' the name from Wm. Blake -- and him with all those juicy metaphors t' plunder!)

Oh, and while y're about catchin' clichés and reportin' scandalous grammatical lapses to The Yard, copper, best be mendin' yer own tenses. Stumbled on a wee subjunctive back a little ways, din't ya, boy-o?

Ta,

Shula

Subject: RE: Goodbye, England's Rose
From: Sheye
Date: 08 Sep 97 - 11:59 AM

Having had the misfortune of having to plan a funeral for a family member that died before his time, I see certain similarities: -both died in a vehicle accident -both were young and had children

There was no file in the back of the closet with instructions of how to do what, etc.

In their grieving, many people who didn't really know him that well suggested songs/speeches/poems that really meant more to them than the pieces had to the person who died.

The lesson I learned: Everyone handles death/tragedies in a different way and those differences must be respected and people offer what they have (the time line is very short!) with the best of intentions. Rather than critiquing the choices, I said thank you for sharing.

Offered with love,

Sheye

Subject: RE: Goodbye, England's Rose
From: Bert
Date: 08 Sep 97 - 12:13 PM

Laoise,

Don't make such speculations on the network, anyone can read it.

We don't want to lose you too.

Subject: RE: Goodbye, England's Rose
From: James
Date: 08 Sep 97 - 12:35 PM

Am I all alone in my shock and disbelief regarding the hype over Princess Diana¹s death? She seemed to be a fine person, but the bottom line is that she was little more than a jet-setting celebrity.

Subject: RE: Goodbye, England's Rose
From: Peter T.
Date: 08 Sep 97 - 01:21 PM

Dear Shula, I of course thought that in the new emotional order (NEO), the subjunctive was to be discarded along with other symbols of hierarchy, tradition, discipline and subordination. Yours, Peter

Subject: RE: Goodbye, England's Rose
From: Tim O'K
Date: 08 Sep 97 - 02:22 PM

Yes, James, the coverage was as ridiculous as it was undeserved, especially in the US. She seemed to me to be a perfectly nice person in a thankless position, but why the canonization? She was famous simply because she was well known.

Part of the problem is that there is usually no news at the end of August, and this August was especially slow. The entire Northern hemishere (including virtually every government) was on vacation, the world was relatively quiet, and news producers were in desperate need of content.

As for the song, well, the less said the better, but it won't outsell The Spice girls, let alone Bing. I'd read that one of her favorite songs was "Your Song" and that was what EJ was going to sing, but the Royals nixed it as undignified. Anybody else hear something like that?

Subject: RE: Goodbye, England's Rose
From: Peter T.
Date: 08 Sep 97 - 03:08 PM

He gave an interview along those lines in the middle of the drama (it was in the papers), but there was nothing about the Royals nixing it. If they were going to stand on dignity they would surely have dumped a song obliquely referring to a dead movie star and things crawling out of the woodwork! He said (if I recall) that he would always associate "Your Song" song with her "sweetest eyes". What his boyfriend of the time thinks of that we have not heard (yet). My own view is that the whole thing is the absolute apotheosis of the romance novel, and that its sordidness, tackiness, and actual true dignity should be wallowed in, and every detail savoured. It only gets better as time goes on. Island burials, Dodi Fayed's unpaid bills, and now the movement to rename Heathrow Airport. What can be next? Will the British dignity that survived Dunkirk be swallowed up in the simultaneous British tastelessness that produced the world's worst newspapers (The National Enquirer is like The Times in comparison) and The Costa Pinta in Spain? Read on! For true tackiness and a reminder that none of this is new, read about the kidnapping of the Lindbergh baby, or Valentino's funeral, or Evita, it goes on and on. The only surprise is that each generation thinks it has invented it. You might as well get your moneys worth out of it. Yours, Peter T.

Subject: RE: Goodbye, England's Rose
From: Sheye
Date: 08 Sep 97 - 04:50 PM

I understand and even agree with most comments here. Royalty on the whole is of no significance to me. Media smut: I choose not to participate.

What I see as being the real tragedy here is that two young boys lost the most important person in their lives long before nature intended. Whatever training they have to handle the roles life has given them, they are still kids, and she was still their Mum. Her unconditional love to her children, her guidance, smile, etc. will not be replaced and that hole is deep and painfully dark.

Whether Diana was the people's princess or your own sister, it hurts when people die in such a senseless way.

This became personal to me when my 5-year-old son, having heard of the tragedy through television, thought it was his Aunty Diana that had died, and it was only by over- hearing a conversation he was having with a friend that I discovered his misunderstanding.

Thanks for giving me the space to say my bit. Sheye

Subject: RE: Goodbye, England's Rose
From: Earl
Date: 08 Sep 97 - 04:56 PM

As an american, it's really none of my business but I have to agree with Shula. Elton John's song brought to mind the tabloid imagery that led to the tragedy in the first place. A little piece of tackiness in an otherwise dignified (if overblown) ceremony.

Subject: RE: Goodbye, England's Rose
From:
Date: 08 Sep 97 - 07:16 PM

I think the hymn sung to "O Danny Boy" ( is that the "Londonderry Air?") is in the Anglican hymn book.

They also have one sung to the tune of The Star of the County Down. I heard it in church once and was about to start singing the words to that folk song, quite puzzled as to what this had to do with an Anglican service, although I was pleased that they were playing something I knew other than "Jerusalem".

I didn't watch any of the funeral. I gave my television away some years ago after a fight with the cable company over the Nashville Network. Besides, I saw Churchill's funeral on the tube, and that was good enough pomp and ceremony for me.

Had it been my sister, I'd have had a private funeral in the little church and buried her in the crypt with the 20 generations of ancestors. This is what English aristocrats are supposed to do. I can already see the guided tours coming of this little island.

Subject: RE: Goodbye, England's Rose
From: Barry
Date: 08 Sep 97 - 09:08 PM

I would've rather have heard "The Flowers Of The Forest" sung by the Queen & then set foot on a boat to Charlie. She would have been the only human influence on the future King. Barry

Subject: RE: Goodbye, England's Rose
From: RS
Date: 08 Sep 97 - 09:28 PM

Well to express a very different point of view ...

People need celebrities, figureheads, hero(ine)s ... and this fascination with the famous, inspired both the constant media chase to which Diana was subjected, and the global communal mourning which followed her death.

Diana represents not just an individual, but a symbol, someone who (for good or ill) the whole world knows perhaps more intimately than anyone else has ever been known. In an age of instant global communication, of intensely personal videorecordings and photographs, voice recordings, public interviews, mass-distributed biographies - we watched her courtship, marriage, pregnancies, childrearing, marriage breakdown, divorce, and subsequent emotional recovery - with greater detail than most of us know our own families. Whether you feel this is good or bad, Diana represents many mythic figures - the "fairy tale princess" - the "perfect woman" - the "devoted mother" - the "betrayed and broken-hearted wife" - the "great humanitarian". Those who mourn Diana, mourn especially what she represents - a woman taken in the prime of her life, her future stolen, forever unable to fulfill her own potential.

This is why Mother Teresa's death, sad though it be, is not as tragic as Diana's: Mother Teresa was 87; Diana was 36.

As for Elton John's song, imagine trying to compose something to be performed for millions of people - in a matter of a very few days - when you are grief-stricken by the untimely, unexpected death of a close friend. I think he did remarkably well. And I find the analogies to Marilyn Monroe, not offensive but touching. Both were children from troubled homes, with insecure self-images, who were catapulted at an early age into a fame and stardom they were not prepared for; and who died before their time, of the consequences of their own fame. (Read Gloria Steinem's biography of Marilyn Monroe, for a very sympathetic analysis of a complex and troubled woman).

Yes I watched Diana's funeral, beginning to end. And while I can certainly understand those of you to whom it meant nothing - may I suggest that you at least consider the possibility - that there was something there, that you have missed.

Subject: RE: Goodbye, England's Rose
From: Shula
Date: 09 Sep 97 - 01:40 AM

Was afraid my quibble might go awry. Hoped to keep it to the music, but should've left well enough alone. Now look what a murky mess we've made! Sorry, Laoise, Sheye, and RS. Let's sort it out a bit.

Appear to have two basic, and NOT NECESSARILY, though apparently, contradictory approaches:

A. Lovely girl, lousy breaks, dreadful death, wretched laddies, inarticulable, near-universal grief.

B. Lovely (original) song, lousy revisions, dreadful poetry, wretched folkies, articulable idiosyncratic criticism.

It comes to this: Cheap shots at details come easy when one is at something of a remove from the emotions involved. Plead thoroughly guilty, myself. Don't read tabloids, too stuck-up. Like formalities -- (Vive le subjonctif!). Only recently came to think about the princess as worthy of notice because of her personal involvement with humanitarian causes. Realised I was sad, both for her motherless boys and for those whose plight she brought to public attention.

Therefore, while I have no doubt of the song's mediocrity, it appears to have been lovingly and sincerely intended, so I was glad for all those whose feelings, however unoriginally, it expressed.

Therefore, to all the cold-hearted fellows who professed to add their voices to mine: Yes, as a composition it royally sucked -- so what, it HELPED. Guess I'd hoped for a more æsthetically pleasing song, knowing it will be aired, ad nauseam, to raise funds for "Tzadakah," (Jewish for "justice/wisdom," used where speakers of English use "charity").

Now feeling I've encouraged expressions of bad form. A little more kindness, in the circumstances, is warranted here, eh, chums? I apologise to anyone offended by my negative remarks on the subject.

Tim Jaques: Thank you. I must know someone who has an Anglican Hymnal; perhaps you could spare the title of the piece in question, if the whole song is too much fuss?

Peter T.: Now you have me intrigued. Can you share the location of the piece by Taverner? (Too old to start giving th' time o' day to the NEO, but can always make time for good music.)

Avec chagrin,

Shula

Subject: RE: Goodbye, England's Rose
From: alison
Date: 09 Sep 97 - 03:07 AM

Hi

Haven't actually seen the whoale funeral yet, (videoed it while I was out), and if my Hubby hasn't taped Friends over it I'll see if I know what the hymn is.

There is a hymn to the tune of "the Londonderry air", the first line of which goes "Oh Brother man, fold to thy heart thy brother,

Where pity dwells, the peace of God is there:....."

Does this sound like the one? I'm off to try and find the video.

Doesn't "Thaxted", (or Jupiter by Holst), sung as "I vow to thee my country", sound great belted out in a cathedral.( Needed some timps and cymbals though).

Here's another good Ulster word for you......"Guldered" It means to yell eg. "I guldered at the kids".

Slainte

Alison

Subject: RE: Goodbye, England's Rose
From: Shula
Date: 09 Sep 97 - 03:29 AM

Turns out, the whole text of the funeral was easily obtained from: http://www.abcnews.com/sections/world/diana_funeral_program/index.html. Sorry to put others to trouble.

For those interested, the hymns included:

I Vow To Thee My Country,
Lyrics by Cecil Spring-Rice (1859-1918)
Music by Gustav Holst (1874-1934).

The King of Love My Shepherd Is,
Dominus regit me.
J. B. Dykes (1823-76),
H. W. Baker (1821-77),
Psalm 23.

Make Me A Channel of Thy Peace,
Sebastian Temple,
St Francis of Assisi,
translated by Sebastian Temple.

Guide Me, O Thou Great Redeemer,
Cwm Rhondda.
John Hughes (1873-1932),
W. Williams (1717-91) translated by P. Williams.

These are the lyrics I was seeking, sung to the Air from County Derry, (Danny Boy, to the Irishly ignorant like me):

(No title given.)

I would be true, for there are those that trust me.
I would be pure, for there are those that care.
I would be strong, for there is much to suffer.
I would be brave, for there is much to dare.
I would be friend of all, the foe, the friendless.
I would be giving, and forget the gift,
I would be humble, for I know my weakness,
I would look up, laugh, love and live.

Air from County Derry,
in G Petrie: The Ancient Music of Ireland (1853),
Howard Arnold Walter.

(Still like it, sounded lovely.)

For Peter T., this is John Taverner's work:

ALLELUIA. May flights of angels sing thee to thy rest.
Remember me O lord, when you come into your kingdom.
Give rest O Lord to your handmaid, who has fallen asleep.
The choir of saints have found the well-spring of life, and door of paradise.
Life: a shadow and a dream.
Weeping at the grave creates the song:
Alleluia. Come, enjoy rewards and crowns I have prepared for you.

John Tavener (b 1944),
extracts from William Shakespeare: Hamlet,
and the Orthodox Funeral Service.

Shula

Subject: RE: Goodbye, England's Rose
From: Laoise
Date: 09 Sep 97 - 06:35 AM

Shula, thank you for the lyrics to the Derry Air. They were appropriate, and I have to agree on reflection, far more appropriate than the EJ rework. I think it was the sentimentality that the EJ song provoked in me which I was referring to. Thanks also for your lucid and articulate posts and threads. Definitely one of the intellectuals amongst us.

Peter T. I disagree. I like the use of the Blake "Jerusalem" reference because I think its a nice way to remember her, not that she was a particularly country type person (this is where Camilla comes in). I suppose this is a typical English stereotype but what the "chelm". Kitch isn's always a bad thing.

As a traditional musician, and occasional Jazz/rock singer, the meanings of lyrics are not always of prime importance to me. I love to hear well thought out, strong lyrics, but as you know, many Jazz songs have corny lyrics but great tunes. I'm afraid if the tune is great I'm there and besides I see the voice as a kind of instrument in these types of music and the words produce different sounds to compliment the music. Where folk songs are concerned, however, lyrics are as important as the tune. Why else would I be here?

Bert, nice to know you care. What happened to free speech I wonder?

Alison, thanks for "Guldered" - good word.

Tcifidh me thu (pronounced Cheefy may hoo, meaning see you later)

Slan go foill (bye for now, pronounced as it looks.)

Laoise.

Subject: RE: Goodbye, England's Rose
From: alison
Date: 09 Sep 97 - 08:09 AM

Well you'll be glad to hear my hubby didn't tape over the funeral, so I transcribed what I thought they were singing. (It wasn't easy!!!) so I'm gald you managed to find the proper words

P.S. Does anyone know what that choral one was they carried the coffin out to? Is that the Taverner one?

Slainte

Alison

Subject: RE: Goodbye, England's Rose
From: Shula
Date: 09 Sep 97 - 08:18 AM

Laoise, check your messages.

Allison: Here's the last part of the service, complete with stage directions:

Standing before the Catafalque the dean said:
THE COMMENDATION

LET us commend our sister Diana to the mercy of God, our maker and redeemer.

DIANA, our companion in faith and sister in Christ, we entrust you to God.
Go forth from this world in the love of the Father, who created you;
In the mercy of Jesus Christ, who died for you;
In the power of the Holy Spirit, who strengthens you.
At one with all the faithful, living and departed,
may you rest in peace and rise in glory,
where grief and misery are banished
and light and joy evermore abide. Amen.

All remained standing as the cortege left the church, during which the choir sang:

ALLELUIA. May flights of angels sing thee to thy rest.
Remember me O lord, when you come into your kingdom.
Give rest O Lord to your handmaid, who has fallen asleep.
The choir of saints have found the well-spring of life, and door of paradise.
Life: a shadow and a dream.
Weeping at the grave creates the song:
Alleluia. Come, enjoy rewards and crowns I have prepared for you.

John Tavener (b 1944)
extracts from William Shakespeare: Hamlet
and the Orthodox Funeral Service.

At the west end of the church the cortege halted for the minute's silence, observed by the nation.

The half-muffled bells of the abbey church were rung.

All remained standing as the processions moved to the west end of the church.

Music after the service:
Prelude in C minor BWV 546 Johann Sebastian Bach
Maestoso, from Symphonie No. 3 Camille Saint-Saens (1835-1921)

Members of the congregation were requested to remain in their places until invited by the stewards to move.

They catalogued the whole bloomin' thing.

Sorry you were put to trouble on my account. I'll owe y' one.

Shula

HTML line breaks added. --JoeClone, 17-May-02.

Subject: RE: Goodbye, England's Rose
From: Peter T.
Date: 09 Sep 97 - 11:53 AM

Re: the Taverner piece, I recall that he wrote it for a friend (female) who was killed in a cycling accident. Part of its interest is that it has some Greek Orthodox chant roots in it. The chilling part is the low continuous bass over which the higher voices move, and then there is the crescendo, very like the Beatles "A Day in the Life" (speaking of famous accidents). But I have no further reference to it. I wonder if it is a standalone piece, or part of a mass or requiem. I think the date is 1994. Re: the saga. I am with RS about the Diana part, anyway. The only additional point I would make is that the eerie part, the tragic part has to do with the fact that she had this strange relationship to the public space that killed her. She fled into the public space as a kind of shelter from the "bad" private life of the House of Windsor, and then discovered that it too was a kind of prison, and maybe even more inescapable. It is that sort of "flight onto the moors" (like in King Lear) that separates her from your usual celebrity use of public space. You can see her trying to find some new private space towards the end, and then being destroyed by the demons she had partly helped bring to life, and partly just found awaiting her in the perverse world of contemporary society. It is that that separates her from the simple (and sad) fact of a mother killed at an early age: there is something more terrible at work, sordid, funny, dark, dark.

Yours, Peter

Subject: RE: Goodbye, England's Rose
From: Shula
Date: 09 Sep 97 - 12:58 PM

Peter T.,

Appreciate the reminder of the music. Disturbing, that lowering ancient, subterranean chant. Couldn't recall why I hadn't been put off by Taverner's rather awkward use of Shakespeare. Have it now. The disjointed literary and liturgical echoes are intentionally un-beautiful, jarring, -- forced, with their attendant images, into the subconscious, on the wave of the dark, ironically orderly bass.

Are we, (the insatiably voyeuristic public, that is), then supposed to come to terms with our collective guilt through awareness that, in demanding Diana's authentic human presence in her public life, we have overtaken, overwhelmed, and ultimately consumed her, much as the musical crescendo swallows the words and their ambiguous potential meanings? A doer summation, indeed.

(The royals have learned, one must suppose, to arm themselves with the very masks for which the press and citizenry excoriate them.) And just as you say, it is all, from this perspective, viciously, deliciously, chaotically funny. Freud, et al, would feast on this like medieval "sin-eaters"! (Have I got it?)

Doesn't change my preference for the more uplifting view. Comprehension and acknowledgment of ineradicable darkness and inexplicable evil only makes the reassertion of faith and hope the more urgently incumbent upon us, say I.

Enough pontification. Can't abide myself in this mood. Easier to break the glass under the chuppah, than to bring comfort into the house of mourning.

L'Chaim

Shula

Subject: RE: Goodbye, England's Rose
From: Peter T.
Date: 09 Sep 97 - 02:16 PM

Dear Shula, don't detect any pontification on your part. But upon what (he said reaching for the Book of Job) is this reassertion of faith and hope to be based, given the rest? Of one thing you are right -- the mood is too dour (spelling?) and unhealthy to be sustained. Yours, Peter P.S. I am reminded of a great Peanuts cartoon where Linus is reading and he says to his sister Lucy, "It is better to light one candle than to curse the darkness". She looks at him. The next panel you see her outside in the darkness yelling: "You Stupid Darkness!"

Subject: RE: Goodbye, England's Rose
From: Frank in the swamps
Date: 09 Sep 97 - 04:29 PM

Here's a good word from Fife, "codswollop." It means what it sounds like and it sums up my attitude toward the whole social fiction of monarchy and National Mourning. Still, it's been a good year for Elton, front cover of the newspapers crying over Versace, topped off by taking center stage at the fairy tale funeral. Am I a bit harsh? You bet, the people sending flowers and crying about the wicked papparazi are the same dolts who were buying the tabloids. Cursing the darkness, Lucy.

Subject: RE: Goodbye, England's Rose
From: Joe Offer
Date: 09 Sep 97 - 05:25 PM

I'm sure the Tavener lyrics also have a tie to the dismissal prayer used in Roman Catholic funerals. It's set nicely to Gregorian chant, and the text is probably medieval in origin:

May the angels lead you into paradise; May the martyrs come to welcome you on your way, and lead you into the holy city, Jerusalem.
May the choir of angels welcome you, and with Lazarus, who once was poor, may you have everlasting rest.

In paradisum deducant te angeli; in tuo adventu suscipiant te martyres, et perducant te in civitatem sanctam Jerusalem. Chorus angelorum te suscipiat, et cum Lazaro quondam paupere aeternam habeas requiem.

Since the prayer is pre-Reformation in origin, it's likely that it is shared by Anglicans and Roman Catholics.

Sebastian Temple's rendition of the Prayer of St. Francis, "Make Me A Channel of Your Peace," is also shared by Anglicans and Romans. I think it was originally copyrighted in 1967 by Franciscan Communications - which made me assume Temple is/was a Franciscan. The song has to be one of the Top Ten Folk Mass Hits of All Time. Heck, it even made it into "Rise Up Singing." (you RUS haters, please forgive me for adding that)
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Goodbye, England's Rose
From: Earl
Date: 09 Sep 97 - 06:13 PM

I agree with Frank from the Swamps about the sincerity of the mourning masses. Maybe its just a public display of guilt.

I don't question Elton John's sorrow or sincerity in this case but he does have a way of feeding off tragedy. I think "Candle in the Wind" is a good example. At one point in the song he self righteously condemns the press for reporting that Marilyn was found naked. Why is it better for him to sing it? Not being obsessed with Marilyn, I had never heard that part of the story before Elton John. He uses this holier-than-thou device often, eg: "Spanish Harlem is not just pretty words to sing", he sings prettily.

Subject: RE: Goodbye, England's Rose
From:
Date: 09 Sep 97 - 06:42 PM

The lyrics posted here sung to the Londonderry Air are not the ones in the Anglican hymn book, I am quite sure.

I shall ask my brother-in-law which it is. However he will have the Canadian hymnal and the numbering may be different than in the UK and USA.

Who chose the music, anyway?

Subject: RE: Goodbye, England's Rose
From:
Date: 09 Sep 97 - 11:01 PM

Just to clear Peter's name, I believe his use of indicative (rather than subjunctive) verbs was entirely correct. I'll happily explain why by e-mail, but not here. And to clear Elton John's name (or the reverse), remember that he didn't rewrite the lyrics. The rewriter was the original writer, the lyricist for (almost?) all of E. J.'s songs: Bernie Taupin. The picture of Taupin racing the clock to adapt the lyrics and fax them to John is not the least absurd part of this whole thing.

Subject: RE: Goodbye, England's Rose
From: Joe Offer
Date: 10 Sep 97 - 03:16 AM

Here's the URL for a page posted by Westminster Abbey, with complete lyrics:

http://www.westminster-abbey.org/funeral_of_diana.htm

-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: Goodbye, England's Rose
From: Shula
Date: 10 Sep 97 - 07:55 AM

Peter T.: Deeply, deeply disturbed: let my spell-check do my thinking for me. Am dreadful with doubled consonants, but "dour" is a favorite of mine, don't ordinarily screw't up. Mea Maxima Culpa. (Must, in fairness admit to a pang for the first Mrs. Job and the kiddies, suspect Himself would stop at nothing to make a point.)

Yesterday's postings now cackle back at me like the banshee, rife as they are with muddy logic, garbled syntax, and, (Horrors!) AK-CHEW-UL ERRrrr-ORS. See to what a blighted pass may fall an old teacher of English, when she's too long off the pillow, and too deep in caffeine! (Hey, that last bit scans pretty neatly -- a parody lyric a-bornin'?! No, no, Shula, me lass, get aholt a yersel,' och! Smeck, smeck!) So, to lighten this dreary exchange a tad, have a laugh on me.

Nothing amiss in the use of indicatives, as Jerry properly asserts. My error; 'twas the conditional lacking in the phrase, "if there ever was one," which in my pre-NEO, schooldays would have been rendered, "if ever there WERE one." (I'm told that, as a child, Diana did, indeed, roam and play quite a good deal on the vast green hills of the Spencer family estate.) Why, you politely enquire, should tense matter in the least? Only because the conditional makes manifest the delicate distinction between ephemera and fact.

In the diabolical mis-quote and so-glad-you-asked departments, the "haimish" (homespun) old Yiddish expression should have been translated: " Easier to MEND THE GLASS BROKEN under the Chuppah (wedding canopy), than to bring comfort to those in the house of mourning." (The glass is symbolic of the doubly-destroyed ancient Temple of Solomon, and hence, to mend it would require an end to the Diaspora, the advent of the Messiah and the resurrection of the dead, not merely a bit of glue. The implication is that those who mourn, but have FAITH, may expect to suffer in this world, but have surcease of that suffering, and be reunited with lost loved ones, in "Olam Habah," (The World To Come). We must, therefore, ardently HOPE that this is true, and endeavor to conduct our lives AS IF IT WERE, eh Peter? Another old Yiddish saying admonishes us to look out after the "tests" of others in this world, and our own "tests" in The World To Come, the import of which is that we should look with compassion upon the faults of others but with rigor upon our own.) Guess THAT ought to qualify me in the pontification sweepstakes, what!

For the absurdists among us, (ye knaw who ye be, 'nd WE knaw who ye be): Heard some wag in the crowd "gundered" just before the "national moment of silence," "And now a word from Our Sponsor!" for the which he took a nasty wallop to the kidney.

James, Tim O'K, Frank I.T.S. & Co.: Don't know about titled royalty, but the nice thing about Titled Discussion Threads is thatcha c'n see 'em comin' quite a ways off, and step aside if y' don't fancy tippin' y'r cap.

Tim Jaques: Obviously, -- though, I assure you, these are the lyrics they did, in fact, sing. Is there a difference between "the Londonderry Air" and "The Derry Air," (sparing the puns, s'il vous plait, cher). If you come upon those Anglican lyrics, I'm still interested in them. Always loved the tune, could reach the high notes in my musically misspent youth, but "Danny Boy" is too lugubrious for most occasions. Much obliged for your pains.

Joe Offer: Grateful for the Latin. I have it: we'll do Ave Verum for the (resurrected) FFC; and explicate the gory verse in English, whilst holding forth on the redemptive qualities of exquisite music. Then, if we're not yet buried in rotten fruit, we can sing Panis Angelicus and mean every lovely word of it. (When I saw Pavarotti enter the Abbey, I dared to hope he would be singing PA, but I suppose Mssrs. Taupin and John were the popular preference, and every dog must have his day.) Forgive me father, for I digress. Reared HC Episcopalian until age fifteen, when I choked on the Nicene while reading in the choir loft, and discovered, subsequently, though quite happenstantially, that I am a Jew. Can't ever entirely disperse the ghostly echoes of childhood, so I resolve my personal conundrum by imagining that, come The Messiah, we'll be in such a dither getting up a proper reception on short notice, that we'll be obliged to borrow liberally from the world's extant melodies, leaving only the lyrics to be "updated." Here's to more felicitous results than those of the aforementioned Mssrs, Taupin and John!

T' codswollop by th' blinkin' bucketful! Dead horses all 'round! Ball's over, morn's broke... Begin t' bore e'en m'sel.'

To another time and a better,

Shula

Subject: RE: Goodbye, England's Rose
From: Earl
Date: 10 Sep 97 - 10:06 AM

Shula, what kind of coffee do you drink?

Subject: RE: Goodbye, England's Rose
From: Peter T.
Date: 10 Sep 97 - 10:10 AM

Ah, Shula, Shula, Would that it were so....Yours, Peter

Subject: RE: Goodbye, England's Rose
From: Speed-1
Date: 10 Sep 97 - 01:58 PM

As a close personal friend of Shula's I can attest to her caffeine-driven excesses, but must tell all her mates that Pepsi is her drug of choice. As a newcomer to the discussion I have a few thoughts:

Reworked lyrics - the parallels between the lives of Marilyn Monroe and Diana are too erie, but the lyrics and the song were good for their use in the funeral. But should it or will it be the finest musical offering to the live and death of Diana? I hope not.

Did anyone read Liz Smith's column which appeared on 09-09-97? She wrote of the hounding of Greta Garbo which occured back in the 30's. Sounded like Jackie in the 60's, Diana in the 90's, etc. Public figures should be able to have some level of privacy. Diana gave many, many photo ops. But there is always one more photographer wanting one more picture.

Has anyone noticed that the tabloid TV people (and I'm including Peter Jennings in this) are now trying to ascribe to Charles far more stuffiness than he ever had? Every clip I've seen of him with the boys - with or without Diana - shows a man who clearly enjoys his children's company. And they are clearly happy to be around him.

Speed

Subject: RE: Goodbye, England's Rose
From: Earl
Date: 10 Sep 97 - 02:06 PM

Speed, Amen to calling Peter Jennings and other TV personalities "tabloid." They need to assign good guys and bad guys to every situation.

Subject: RE: Goodbye, England's Rose
From: Peter T.
Date: 10 Sep 97 - 03:44 PM

Dear Speed-1, Some of the most interesting discussion on the media can be found in this week's Guardian Weekly. George Will (I agree with him seldom) points out that one of Diana's problems was that, like a lot of celebrities, she wanted publicity when she wanted it -- and she was very manipulative -- and wanted it to go away when she wanted it. Garbo (whom he mentions) fled it forever. Diana got away with it in part because of the notion that she was now using her fame for good causes. But I think (as I mentioned earlier) that her relationship to the public space was far more complex than that, half seducer, half seduced. Her brother (who was once a television reporter!) wasn't exactly being honest about that part. The most interesting piece in the paper was from Decca Aikenhead who argues that the vast crowds were as much about people wanting to be part of history and to be inarguably part of something noble and good collectively, than about mourning. She thinks that with the loss of the communal spirit, people felt that a space had opened up for sharing, and people made the most of it. All interesting.

Subject: RE: Goodbye, England's Rose
From: Speed-1
Date: 10 Sep 97 - 06:02 PM

I think the difference between Diana and celebs such as Madonna, etc., is that Diana did not financially gain - as far as I know - from her celebrity status. She was selling the charity of the moment, in an effort to raise funds for that charity. I don't believe she was ever compensated for her appearances. Celebs who are looking to stay in the public eye for fianacial gain are selling themselves - it how they make their living. Diana was reported to be worth about $77 million at her death which I had read was expected to go to her younger son Harry, since under England's inheritance laws William will inherit the duchy of Cornwall from his father which is massive. She would benefit if the charity paid her transportation, hotel bill, etc., does anybody know if she received any kind of honorarium for her appearances? If not, I think that is a very important distinction between "Charity Promoting" personages and other celebs.

Subject: RE: Goodbye, England's Rose
From: LaMarca
Date: 10 Sep 97 - 07:40 PM

I'm from the US, and therefore rather distant from the implications and effects of a monarchy, but I was startled and saddened when I first heard the news about Diana. I don't participate much in popular culture; I usually have my nose in a book rather than watch TV, so a lot of my reactions to the event and the subsequent panoply and theatrics feel more like an anthropologist examining a foreign culture.

It seems that all through history, the powers-that-be have appeased "the masses" by offering them bread and circuses involving the public execution or torture of animals or people, from the gladiators of the Roman Empire, through the delights of bear-baitings, public hangings and auto-da-fés. These days our public immolations tend to involve on-the-air humiliation and exposure, either with the consent of the victims on the TV and radio confessional/call-in shows, or by the violent abuses of the tabloids, papparazzi and TV shows featuring attack journalism. Today I heard a radio ad for a new television show featuring "A REAL judge with REAL Court cases, with REAL people!" Here in the US, we are even turning our pathetic excuse for a justice system into a form of public entertainment, although we haven't taken the final step back to the display of public executions - yet. The lines between "celebrity", entertainment, gossip and the more vicious trends I'm describing are becoming very blurred.

It is sad that so many people feel their own lives are so meaningless that they create a market for living vicariously through the lives of "Celebrities". These "public" figures are created by a combination of the avarice of the media which feature them and the people who want them to embody all their fantasies about wealth, lust, power and all the other underlying symbols of a traditional fairy tale.

As long as people with very little money and no power are kept amused by the illusions of things they can never grasp, they won't pose a danger to the people who have them; except for the few of the upper echelon who are ritually sacrificed to appease the hungers of the hoi-polloi. The fact that this phenomenon is nothing new is more depressing than comforting to me. The frenzied publicity surrounding Diana's life and death seems to illustrate just how bankrupt our sense of "entertainment" really is. Sorry to be so depressing, but I can't really can't feel any inspirational lift from an internationally shared experience which seemed carefully crafted to appeal to a need for communal wallowing in a mixture of guilt and delight in the rich theatrics of a royal funeral.

Subject: RE: Goodbye, England's Rose
From: Martin Ryan
Date: 11 Sep 97 - 05:52 AM

LaMarca

Hear, hear!

Regards

Subject: RE: Goodbye, England's Rose
From: alison
Date: 12 Sep 97 - 03:47 AM

HI

In answer to Shula's question. The Londonderry Air, and the Derry Air are one and the same. Depending on your political slant the city is either referred to as Londonderry, or Derry. This leads to confusion with the media who have been heard to report, "Earlier today in Derry stroke Londonderry." with the result that others have started to call it "Stroke City." Now there's Irish logic for you.

Slainte

Alison

Subject: RE: Goodbye, England's Rose
From: Shula
Date: 12 Sep 97 - 04:04 AM

Love it, the sheer delicious absurdity of it!

Shula

Subject: RE: Goodbye, England's Rose
From: Laoise
Date: 12 Sep 97 - 07:36 AM

I was going to post something similar to Alison but decided not to as I my earlier post proved a tad controversial.

I was very surprised to see the program notes giving it the Derry title. Living over here you find that you can tell a person's religious and/or political beliefs, simply by whether they use the D or the L word. Being Jewish, I once had a laugh as someone asked me If I was a Catholic or a Protestant Jew! I replied, "no but I am a devout Atheist." Talk about Irish absurdity!

Shalom and Slainte,

Laoise.

Subject: RE: Goodbye, England's Rose
From: Bert.
Date: 12 Sep 97 - 08:40 AM

Laoise,

That reminds me of an Indian couple I once knew. I asked them what their religion was and he replied

"I'm a Catholic Hindu and She's a Methodist Hindu."

Evidently many Indian schools are sponsored by different missionay groups.

Subject: RE: Goodbye, England's Rose
From: Peter T.
Date: 12 Sep 97 - 01:20 PM

Just a note that there is some taste out there. Sony has today announced that they are unable to keep up with requests for John Taverner's "Goodbye to Athene", which was only recorded once. "It's not exactly Candle in the Wind," a spokesman said, "but this is crazy for a classical record". They are going back for multiple new pressings. Yours, Peter

Subject: RE: Goodbye, England's Rose
From: Peter T.
Date: 16 Sep 97 - 11:34 AM

Just to tidy up a loose end. Contemporary composer's name is John Tavener (not Taverner, the Renaissance composer). Yours, Peter

Subject: RE: Goodbye, England's Rose
From: PattyG
Date: 16 Sep 97 - 07:00 PM

You guys had quite a discussion while I was absent!! I *think* I've read all the posts about Princess Diana and EJ's "Candle" rendition. Am I dreaming or didn't EJ sing this same song for Ryan White's funeral? Can't remember if special lyrics were composed or if he used those intended to eulogize Marilyn. Is my memory failing me? Please be kind!

Subject: RE: Goodbye, England's Rose
From: Alice
Date: 19 Sep 97 - 01:28 AM

Laoise and Bert, your messages remind me of a joke told by the Jesuit priest from India, father Anthony de Mello. He said, "Paddy was walking down the steet one night when he felt a gun stuck in his back, and a voice asked, "Are you Catholic or Protestant?" In a moment he replied, "I'm a Jew!" and the voice cried out, "I'm the luckiest Arab in all of Belfast!!"

Alice in Montana

Subject: RE: Goodbye, England's Rose
From: Suibhan
Date: 26 Sep 97 - 01:26 PM

First, I ask forgiveness for resurrecting this old and somewhat controversial thread. It inspired me to watch my videotape of the funeral, which I had not seen, and my appreciation of the music was greatly enhanced. The Tavener piece is brilliant.

I think this is a good opportunity to comment on the quality of the people who frequent this beloved site - I have never seen such a civilized discussion of any subject, much less an emotional and controversial one, anywhere else. Thanks to all of you.

Subject: Lyr Add: HAVE YOU SEEN BUT A WHITE LILY GROW
From: Shula
Date: 26 Sep 97 - 02:34 PM

Dear Suibhan,

Was glad th' fever had run its course, and baby put to bed, but since y've reawakened 'er, propose t' put 'er back down gently with the song I mentioned early on, but failed to post:

HAVE YOU SEEN BUT A WHITE LILY GROW
(words by Ben Jonson)

Have you seen but a white lily grow,
Before rude hands have touched it?
Have you marked but the fall of the snow,
Before the earth hath smucht it?

Have you felt the wool of beavor?
Or swan's down ever?
Or have smelt of the bud of the briar?
Or the nard of the fire?

Or have tasted the bag of the bee?
O so white, O so soft,
O so sweet is she,
O so sweet is she;

O so white, O so soft,
O so sweet, so sweet,
So sweet is she;

Puts me in mind of the young Diana, when first we knew her. Prefer to dwell on this image. May she rest in sweet peace (more Jonson).
Shula

Subject: RE: Goodbye, England's Rose
From: http://www.druid.net/~rodney/
Date: 26 Sep 97 - 08:42 PM

I myself don't think "Goodbye, England's Rose" should be discussed in the same thread as "The Londonderry Air."

Subject: RE: Goodbye, England's Rose
From: Peter T.
Date: 27 Sep 97 - 10:03 AM

Oh rare Ben Jonson. Yours, Peter