Songs and Legends of the Water-Horse

Subject: Songs and Legends of the Water-Horse
From:
Date: 08 Dec 96 - 01:04 PM

I am interested in ballads and legends of the mythical creature known as the water-horse (kelpie, eac suige, aughisky, nicker, nokke, neck, etc) It is supposed to have been a very common creature of European folklore and had many legends about various ones, but I've found any specific information on it lacking. Any help you can provide will be much appreciated.

Subject: RE: Songs and Legends of the Water-Horse
From:
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 01:37 PM

I don't know any ballads or legends about this kind of being, but I confirm that European present and past folk literatures are full of lore about nickers. I would dare to say that the hippokampoi and ketea of Greek mythology - i.e. the Nereids' water horses - belong to the same family of beings.
I would like to trace a map of these fantastic creatures - proven there already doesn't exist one.
Online and printed dictionaries seem not to be very helpful, as they give sheer definitions and very small hints.
Can anyone suggest me any reading in English or German where I can find something more about Nickers/kelpies/etc.?

Subject: RE: Songs and Legends of the Water-Horse
From: GUEST
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 03:07 PM

If a hippopotamus counts [= river horse] there is 'Mud, mud. glorious mud' - maybe not folk lore but nice for mudcats.

Subject: RE: Songs and Legends of the Water-Horse
From: Peace
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 10:14 PM

http://www.bellaonline.com/ArticlesP/art27771.asp

Subject: RE: Songs and Legends of the Water-Horse
From: Peace
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 10:23 PM

Kelpie, The
Is a Scottish water faerie. Although sometimes appearing in the guise of a hairy man, this is more often seen in the form of a young horse. The Kelpie haunts rivers and streams and, after letting unsuspecting humans mount him, will dash into the water and give them a dunking. Each Uisge (ech-ooshkya) or Aughisky (agh-iski) as he is known in Ireland, inhabits seas and lochs and is far more dangerous.

Nokke
This is a musical river sprite who is often heard but never seen.


Aughisky / Agh-iski
They are the Irish version of the Each Uisge.

Subject: RE: Songs and Legends of the Water-Horse
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 09 Apr 05 - 10:52 PM

There is some Gabriel Byrne film about a horse of this type. His sons get on its back and it carries them to the sea, almost drowning them. There's some mixed mythology in that film with the boys being Travelers and the horse being named Tir Na Nog, but a decent film.

My father used to tell me there were horses that lived out under the rough surf off of the shore at Rockaway Beach and I shouldn't go out there or they might carry me off to a land where I'd never see my parents again. Once, when I was 8 years old and walking along the shore in Atlantic City, I swore I could see those sinister horses calling to me as the waves broke. I ran back to my grandmother and told her. She did nothing to dissuade me from my belief in them.

I always wondered a bit about Bruce Springsteen's upbringing because of that song of his 'Cowboys of the Sea." His last name is Dutch and his mother is Italian, but folks from Freehold tell me his dad's family is really Irish. Marrying the images of horses with the ocean isn't a uniquely Celtic thing by any means but it isn't very American. I'm sure my father heard it from his Irish parents and Grandparents.

I just now mentioned this to my husband who assumed I was talking about the Seahorses that Aquaman rode. Bwahaha! NOT! My husband says he used to watch a cartoon when he was a kid called Marine Boy and Marine boy rode Seahorses too. So... there you have my very American Husband's take on horses and the ocean.


The Horses I used to imagine out there under the waves were usually white and terrifying. Right on up through my late 20's I was afraid to swim very far out into the OCean off various NY beaches. I assume our parents told us about those Horses in the ocean because they wanted us to stay close to shore and out of the undertow.

Subject: RE: Songs and Legends of the Water-Horse
From: Nerd
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 08:19 AM

The Kelpie is mentioned in Child's text of Annan Water. One of the reasons the man swims the river rather than trying to ford it on horseback is that the horse is spooked by hearing the "water-Kelpie":

The ride was stey, and the bottom deep,
Frae bank to brae the water pouring,
And the bonny grey mare did sweat for fear,
For she heard the water-kelpie roaring.

In general, it's not a common creature in English-language songs.

There is information on this creature in several volumes of the County Folklore Series. Sadly, my copies are packed away in boxes as I have just moved house. When I unpack them I'll try to remember to recommend specific volumes.

Subject: RE: Songs and Legends of the Water-Horse
From: Severn
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 08:56 AM

Do you tell a haggard water horse that they look like the've been "rode hard and put up dry"?

Subject: RE: Songs and Legends of the Water-Horse
From:
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 01:20 PM

Most of the stories about Kelpies, (Water-horse) that I have heard about come out of the Gaelic, Irish and Scottish. I would assume that Welsh, Cornish, Breton and Manx would have similar songs and stories, since they are all part of the same tradition. Try and concentrate on those language/cultures.

Subject: RE: Songs and Legends of the Water-Horse
From: Severn
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 04:12 PM

If one leads a water horse to land, what IS it that you can't make it DO?

Subject: RE: Songs and Legends of the Water-Horse
From: Peace
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 04:24 PM

You can't make it drink. This time with good reason.

Subject: RE: Songs and Legends of the Water-Horse
From: Severn
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 04:50 PM

Are water horse songs best played on a "gilled" guitar?

Do the mares sleep in Silkie nightgowns?

I'm SO confused!

Subject: RE: Songs and Legends of the Water-Horse
From: Bearheart
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 05:12 PM

I can't add much to this except that I too am interested in the subject, and first heard the song from Frank Harte in the 80's. Have loved it since then.
I've sent this thread to a friend in Ireland who was born and bred on the Isle of Man and who collects lore of this kind to see what he might know. hopefully he'll have something useful to add.

Bekki

Subject: RE: Songs and Legends of the Water-Horse
From: Bearheart
Date: 10 Apr 05 - 06:49 PM

Just heard from my friend, he had this to say:

the manx version is cabbal ushty    or water horse.. said to take young men or women upon its back and to then run into water and drown them..    there is also a tarroo ushty water bull..


Bekki

Subject: Lyr Add: COWBOYS OF THE SEA (Bruce Springsteen)
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 09:53 AM

Here are the lyrics to that Springsteen song I mentioned earlier. It was probably written before 1974, but that's the date on the first recordings made of the song. It's not about Kelpies, but the images are nice. It's not often you get songs about Horses in the ocean and therefore is possibly worthy of being included here.

Cowboys Of The Sea lyrics
Bruce Springsteen
(never officially released, can be found on various bootlegs)

They ride beneath the waves at 20,000 leagues
On stallions stitched to seaweed strands
So smiling, so smiling
They herd the fishes of the deep
They ride for you and me
They ranch the rich and the sunken soil
At the bottom of the sea

In the dead of night, alive in sleep
I hear them calling me
Them deep sea desperadoes
Them midnight maelstrom freaks
The cowboy of the sea

So on wings of sleep i pierce the deep
And ride like a hurricane
At midnight still i paid my bill
And turned my back on the land
With the help of old paint, that seaweed nag
It's just jesse james and me
We ride the depths and rob the banks
At the bottom of the sea

With a seaman's grip on navigation
And some fired, hired hands
We set forth to confront the nation
And lend a cowboy's hand

We do the dolphins' dance duet
My mermaid babe and me
Then i ride of into the blue sunset
At the bottom of the sea

And with the seaman's grip on submarining
And some aqualung outlaws
Our guns are made of solid dreamin'
And bullets from a broken cause
And with hand held high to touch the sky
A good texas ranger i'll be
but sometimes i feel like a lone stranger
'midst the cowboys of the sea

Oh and men above he cannot make love
He's got to rape his mother the sea
And because of his greed
We're a vanishing breed
We cowboys of the sea

Subject: Lyr Add: KELPIE (Ian Anderson/Jethro Tull)
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 10:05 AM

Some actual songs:


Kelpie by John Duncan
Kelpie – Jethro Tull

There was a warm wind with the high tide on the south of the hill.
When a young girl went a-walking and I followed with a will.
"Good day to you, my fine young lady, with your lips so sweetly full.
May I help you comb your long hair, sweep it from that brow so cool?''

Chorus:
Up, ride with the kelpie.
I'll steal your soul to the deep.
If you don't ride with me while the devil's free
I'll ride with somebody else.

Well I'm a man when I'm feeling the urge to step ashore.
So I may charm you not alarm you. Tell you all fine things, and more.

[chorus]

Say goodbye to all your dear kin for they hate to see you go
in your young prime, to this place of mine in the still loch far below.

[chorus x 2]



and...

The 4th Welwyn Garden City Brownie Pack Song
This song is sung to the tune of John Browns Body

We're the 4th Pack Brownies and we like to lend a hand,
We're the 4th Pack Brownies and we like to lend a hand,
We're the 4th Pack Brownies and we like to lend a hand,
With Badger and Brown Owl.

Work on Footpath, Road and Highway,
Work on Footpath, Road and Highway,
Work on Footpath, Road and Highway,
With Badger and Brown Owl.

We've made our Brownie Promise to serve our God and Queen,
We've made our Brownie Promise to serve our God and Queen,
We've made our Brownie Promise to serve our God and Queen,
And always do our best.

Work on Footpath, Road and Highway,
Work on Footpath, Road and Highway,
Work on Footpath, Road and Highway,
And always do our best.

We try to keep the Brownie Law and think of others first,
We try to keep the Brownie Law and think of others first,
We try to keep the Brownie Law and think of others first,
And do good turns each day.

Work on Footpath, Road and Highway,
Work on Footpath, Road and Highway,
Work on Footpath, Road and Highway,
And do good turns each day.

Imps, and Pixies, Gnomes and Kelpies all join in the fun,
Imps, and Pixies, Gnomes and Kelpies all join in the fun,
Imps, and Pixies, Gnomes and Kelpies all join in the fun,
As 4th Pack Brownie Guides.

Work on Footpath, Road and Highway,
Work on Footpath, Road and Highway,
Work on Footpath, Road and Highway,
As 4th Pack Brownie Guides.


For more versions of this scouting song and the page it came from.. go HERE:
The Brownies Page


Not bad for some quick searching if I do say so myself.

Subject: RE: Songs and Legends of the Water-Horse
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 02:50 PM

See thread Water Kelpie/Oran Tlaidh an Eich-Uisge. Relates mostly to water-horse songs from Skye, but mentions also the Manx tune, making the point that Arrane Ghelby may well refer not to a Kelpie at all, but to Dalby, the place where the melody was heard. Certainly, the story told with the tune was of an old old man in a boat, and later attempts by folklorists to identify him as a kelpie in human form strike me as rather contrived.

On the whole, folk-beliefs of this sort don't turn up much in traditional song (the Annan Water example has the air of literary intervention). I don't know why, but it may in part be because such beliefs tend to be local, and in order to spread more widely songs need a general appeal. The surviving songs which do mention the water-horse (or which appear to) are usually lullabyes, found only locally.

There may perhaps be a better stock of material to be found in the Scandinavian countries.

Subject: RE: Songs and Legends of the Water-Horse
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 12 Apr 05 - 10:43 PM

Water Horses and Other Fairy Steeds.. By: Aisling Bronach
Published in Traditions Magazine, Volume 1 – Winter 2004

Another reference on the subject:
Water faeries


And a final reference on the subject:
Merrows and Selkies

The top blue Clicky leads you to a very good discussion on the matter. The other two are okay. The Aisling Bronach article is very complete and a good starting point.

Subject: RE: Songs and Legends of the Water-Horse
From: Bearheart
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 11:45 AM

Dave's wife-- thanks for these sites, particularly the first. I really enjoyed it.

Bekki

Subject: RE: Songs and Legends of the Water-Horse
From: Dave'sWife
Date: 13 Apr 05 - 02:44 PM

That first link was to an article publish in Traditions magazine, which is relatively new. It looks very interesting. Here's what they say about themselves:

>>Traditions is a journal of folklore and traditions. The magazine made its first debut release this October 2004. Our mission is to provide innovative and well-researched information to our readers. We offer an opportunity to explore folk traditions using both scholarship and experience.

We are an independent magazine centered on folklore, cultural traditions, history, and the occult. Our articles feature such topics as archaeology, cosmology, customs, folklore, hagiography, herbalism, history, magic, mythology, and superstitions. We do not publish fiction.<<

They are selling subscriptions. It is published 4 times a year.
If interest, you can find out more by clicking HERE



In reading that article, I learned that the white water horses that scared the beejeezus out me as a kid are not selkies or Pookas but more likely a throwback to a much older tradition. As mentioned earlier in this thread, enchanted water horse traditions are highly local phenomena with a great deal of variation from place to place. That first article is a great overview of them all and a good place to start. I'm sure with a little more time, I can dig up some more songs but most will probbaly be modern attempts to co-opt Gaelic folklore.