Classical vs.steel string guitars

Subject: Classical vs.steel string guitars
From: Marion
Date: 16 Nov 00 - 12:45 PM

Hello all. As I've mentioned on a number of other threads, I'm in the process of replacing my classical guitar with a steel-string. This is because a number of people have told me that a steel string would be better suited to my purposes (strumming or fingerpicking chords to accompany my own voice and play with other musicians, no interest in classical guitar music), and because I never seem to see anybody else playing a classical and I figure that this consensus must count for something.

But I want to know what exactly are the differences between classicals and acoustics. Why would a steel string be better for me? I don't mean the anatomical differences - I think I understand those OK - but rather what kinds of playing/players the two kinds work best for.

I ask for two reasons:

1. I'm having difficulty explaining to my mother why the guitar the family chipped in and bought for me isn't good enough any more, when my decision right now is basically founded on peer pressure.

2. I actually sold the classical a couple of days ago (found someone who agreed to buy it a month and a half from now, actually)... and now when I play it I'm suddenly discovering what a soft, sweet instrument it is with action like butter and devastatingly beautiful appearance, and I'm suddenly developing ambitions to arrange gentle instrumental settings to folk melodies. So I need to have some logical reasons to switch before I let my emotions take over.

Thanks, Marion

Subject: RE: Classical vs.steel string guitars
From: mousethief
Date: 16 Nov 00 - 12:52 PM

Well, among other things, you can hear a steel string from more than 3' (1 m.) away. Further, I've never heard anyone successfully use a slide on a classical guitar, or bend the strings in a way that didn't sound silly.

I always felt that the classical guitar is the instrument of choice for playing ... classical guitar music. For nearly any other type of music, it sounds better (this is subjective, I know) on a steel-string.

That, and classical guitars remind me of my ex-wife.

O..O Alex
=o= "the Mousethief"

Subject: RE: Classical vs.steel string guitars
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 16 Nov 00 - 01:10 PM

Gotta disagree with you Mouse (or at least present the exceptions that prove the rule). What do you think of Guy Van Duser? There are probably quite a few others like him who use the classical guitar in Bluesey Ragtime ways. Now as far as slide goes....ya got me there, buddy!

Volume? A hell of a lot more classical guitarists played concerts sans microphones during the twenties and thirties than steel string players. Sound patterns change at about the ten foot mark. A classical guitar will be heard at the back of the hall where a steel string will dissipate more quickly.

'course I favour steel stringers!

Rick

Subject: RE: Classical vs.steel string guitars
From: mousethief
Date: 16 Nov 00 - 01:21 PM

Mostly it's the ex-wife, Rick.

O..O
=o= Alex

Subject: RE: Classical vs.steel string guitars
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 16 Nov 00 - 01:25 PM

Danger Marion!!!

You replace your current guitar when you decide that it cannot do what you want it to do.

Whether or not you see anybody else playing classical guitar is not really the point.

You trade your classical guitar for a steel string when you decide that you want to produce the kind of sound that a steel stringed guitar makes. To your parents you say, "I love the sound of my classical guitar, but I have decided that I love the sound of a steel string better." That should be the only justification needed in this kind of discussion. It's along the lines of "I've switched to Guinness because I like it better than Bud." The discussion is not about "good enough" it is about personal preferences.

When it comes to music ,your emotions ARE the most important factor. It is one of the few areas in life that SHOULD be ruled by your PASSIONS. What is the point of making music if you are not doing it for love?

Subject: RE: Classical vs.steel string guitars
From: MK
Date: 16 Nov 00 - 01:31 PM

I'm a steel string player, mostly fingerpicking. The only thing that has kept me away from a classical or nylon stringed guitar is that I find the necks just too damn wide. It is virtually impossible for me to formulate chord positions which involve the fretting of the 6th or 6th and 5th strings together with the thumb, and fretting the other strings, as in an F chord, or a Bb chord in the first position. But I do like the sound of them for classical and flamenco stylings...as well as anything Muriel Anderson performs.

Subject: RE: Classical vs.steel string guitars
From: Lonesome Gillette
Date: 16 Nov 00 - 01:48 PM

Marion, I second what Russ said.
Nylon Strings:
Nylon string guitars are not good only for classical! My friend, leader of the western swing band The Steam Donkies plays a nylon string. And what about Willie Nelson? Have you ever heard a Flamenco player live, I assure you that you can hear them from beyond 3'. Also Segovia never amplified his nylon string and played in big sold out halls.
Nylon and steel strings have a very different sound, and if you can it's good to play with both to see which feels better for your music.
I have a steel string and nylon string banjo and they each have their own voice, I like them both. One thing I've always liked about nylon strings is the soft/loose/flappy feel they have for agressive bare-fingerstyle (styles like Flamenco Guitar or Clawhammer Banjo)
One more thing, I think the tension of a set of steel strings is much higher than a set of nylon strings, Classical guitar tops are built differently and might not like all the extra tension of steel strings.
Eric

Subject: RE: Classical vs.steel string guitars
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 16 Nov 00 - 01:49 PM

I play both. They sound different. There's very little you can do with either that you can't with the other.

Suit your own ear.

Subject: RE: Classical vs.steel string guitars
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 16 Nov 00 - 02:00 PM

Willie Nelson is one guy who has made use of a gut string guitar in folk/pop context. It is a different sound and distinctive for him.

My suggestion is to hold on to what you have until you find something you like better (sometime even after, but more on that later). If you have some good music stores with a large selection of guitars, set aside some time to try on some new guitars. A good music store will let you sit and play for hours without bugging you to buy or move along. Play a lot of different types. Listen to the subtle differences between them. When you fall in love with one is the time to buy.

If you can get the new one without selling the old one, do that. You rarely get enough in exchange for a good instrument. And, boy do you end up kicking yourself when you realize that it was just a case of the grass being greener. . .

Good luck with whatever choice you make. There are a lot of possibilities and with nice guitars, they're all good.
Bart

Subject: RE: Classical vs.steel string guitars
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 16 Nov 00 - 02:01 PM

Willie Nelson is one guy who has made use of a gut string guitar in folk/pop context. It is a different sound and distinctive for him.

My suggestion is to hold on to what you have until you find something you like better (sometime even after, but more on that later). If you have some good music stores with a large selection of guitars, set aside some time to try on some new guitars. A good music store will let you sit and play for hours without bugging you to buy or move along. Play a lot of different types. Listen to the subtle differences between them. When you fall in love with one is the time to buy.

If you can get the new one without selling the old one, do that. You rarely get enough in exchange for a good instrument. And, boy do you end up kicking yourself when you realize that it was just a case of the grass being greener. . .

Good luck with whatever choice you make. There are a lot of possibilities and with nice guitars, they're all good.
Bart

Subject: RE: Classical vs.steel string guitars
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 16 Nov 00 - 02:01 PM

Willie Nelson is one guy who has made use of a gut string guitar in folk/pop context. It is a different sound and distinctive for him.

My suggestion is to hold on to what you have until you find something you like better (sometime even after, but more on that later). If you have some good music stores with a large selection of guitars, set aside some time to try on some new guitars. A good music store will let you sit and play for hours without bugging you to buy or move along. Play a lot of different types. Listen to the subtle differences between them. When you fall in love with one is the time to buy.

If you can get the new one without selling the old one, do that. You rarely get enough in exchange for a good instrument. And, boy do you end up kicking yourself when you realize that it was just a case of the grass being greener. . .

Good luck with whatever choice you make. There are a lot of possibilities and with nice guitars, they're all good.
Bart

Subject: RE: Classical vs.steel string guitars
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 16 Nov 00 - 02:04 PM

First it wouldn't let me post, then it posted three times. Sorry for the duplicates; hopefully Max can delete them.

Subject: RE: Classical vs.steel string guitars
From: catspaw49
Date: 16 Nov 00 - 02:20 PM

Thank you Bart!

Marion, they are different instruments. They sound differently. Although you can mold each around whatever you decide to play, there are certain types of things associated with each instrument. Forget about who does what with which and when and all that........Just think for yourself about your vouce and the songs you like to sing. I bet you can think of some that you would NOT sing with a steel string. I bet you can think of some that just don't sound right on a classical.

Save your money and buy a good steel string and keep the classical.

Spaw

Subject: RE: Classical vs.steel string guitars
From: kendall
Date: 16 Nov 00 - 02:41 PM

Gordon Bok plays both, and believe me, you can hear them.

Subject: RE: Classical vs.steel string guitars
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 16 Nov 00 - 03:03 PM

Sounds like an emerging consensus (as long as we leave Alex's ex-wife out of this). I play both, too, and am happy to do so. In addition to Guy van Duser and Willie Nelson, I would also direct you to Duck Baker and Ralph Towner. There's a lot you can do with a classical guitar that isn't strictly classical.

However, there are some things that only a steel-string will work on, practically speaking. Bluegrass is one; it would be tough to play those Lester Flatt rhythms or Tony Rice leads on nylon strings. I'm nying you can't play bluegrass on nylon strings, 'cause every time someone says "can't" in a musical context, someone else comes along to prove them wrong. But you would be in uncharted waters, and would have to work out your own adaptations of technique to make it work.

So my short answer is the same as everyone else's -- do what you want, when you want to do it. And I agree with Spaw, if you can work out a way to have both, it's worth it. Good luck.

Subject: RE: Classical vs.steel string guitars
From: mousethief
Date: 16 Nov 00 - 03:11 PM

By all means, let's leave my ex-wife out of it.

Alex

Subject: RE: Classical vs.steel string guitars
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 16 Nov 00 - 03:48 PM

Willie IS HIS OWN STYLE...virtually uncopyable. Plus I understand he has the FINEST dope.

Mouse, to hell with this, tell us about your ex-wife.

Rick

Subject: RE: Classical vs.steel string guitars
From: Wesley S
Date: 16 Nov 00 - 04:13 PM

I agree with Spaw - keep the nylon and buy a steel string too. One of the things I always liked about Peter Paul and Mary was the way they blended one of each style of guitar. Something else I've noticed is that every time I get a new instrument I'm able to discover wonderful qualitys about the instrument I already own that I had forgotten about. Have your cake - and eat it too. Good Luck

Subject: RE: Classical vs.steel string guitars
From: mousethief
Date: 16 Nov 00 - 04:22 PM

NEVER! NEVER! You'll have to pry the details out of my cold, dead keyboard!

Not much to say, really. She had a nylon-string guitar before we were married, but for some reason it got sold or given away or something. She belly-ached about this at some point and I bought her a new one. But she never played it. While we were divorcing she made some quip about how she always resented the fact that I was considered the guitar player of the family and her musical needs were put on the back burner, yada yada yada. Not that she ever took the damned thing out and played it or anything.

But I'm not bitter.

Alex
O..O
=o=

Subject: RE: Classical vs.steel string guitars
From: Don Firth
Date: 16 Nov 00 - 05:55 PM

I also vote with Spaw.

Before you give up the classic, follow the advice given above and spend a lot of time playing different steel-string guitars. Being used to the feel of nylon strings, two things you probably won't like about steel are: 1) it takes 2 to 2 1/2 times the pressure to press the strings down on the frets; and 2) the naked trebles have a sort of cheese-cutter effect on your fingertips. But calluses develop and you'll soon get used to it.

I would say that a major factor in your decision should be the type of music you play. I started out in the early 1950s and played steel-string for about two years because that's what everybody else was playing. I was what some used to call a "Greensleeveser" -- I sang (and still sing) a lot of British Isles and Anglo-American songs and ballads (I currently steal outrageously from Gordon Bok's records). Listening to recordings of Richard Dyer-Bennet and Ed McCurdy, I decided I liked the sound of a classic guitar, so I switched to a classic, and even took some lessons from a local classic guitar teacher (he taught me to keep my thumb behind the neck and use bar chords for the 5th and 6th strings in chords like F and Bb in first position and elsewhere -- classical technique is very efficient, whether you play classical or not). I was delighted at how much friendlier it was to my fingertips, and I found it easier to play accompaniments that range from very simple to fairly elaborate (lute-style). I've used classics in concerts, in fairly large concert halls without mikes or other amplification, and they project very well -- better than unamplified steel, actually. The classic guitar suits me nicely. I don't sing blues (I'm no good at it), I don't do bottleneck, I rarely use special tunings, and I don't do bluegrass, not because I don't like it, but it just isn't my thing. Yet I can jam along with anybody on almost anything with my classic and nobody seems to object.

But -- there's a fellow who comes to most of the local songfests who is a world-class fingerpicker. It isn't exactly Travis-picking, nor is it Chet Atkins style, it's an alternating bass style all his own. His technique is almost classical. He does use special tunings, and he plays blues quite a bit. He plays a steel-string -- a Taylor. And, Lord, he sounds good! I can fingerpick pretty well, but not like that. Every time I hear him, I'm tempted to get a steel-string guitar. But no. I know my strengths and I know my limitations.

In 1954, I was the only one in my particular circle in Seattle who used a classic. By 1958, about half the folksingers in town did. So don' t sweat what other people do and give in to peer pressure. If you can afford it, get a steel-string guitar, but KEEP the classic (Caution: don't EVER put steel strings on a classic guitar!). You'll probably find after a while that you play one a lot more than the other. But there's no law that says you can't do both.

Good luck, and have fun,

Don Firth

Subject: RE: Classical vs.steel string guitars
From: Mooh
Date: 16 Nov 00 - 10:35 PM

My usual complaint about guitarists (myself included) is we make everything sound too much alike. Having two (or more) different guitars will only vary our potential sounds, inspire us, educate us, occupy us, and give us more excuses to play more.

Keep both. Mooh.

Subject: RE: Classical vs.steel string guitars
From: Matt_R
Date: 16 Nov 00 - 10:49 PM

Classical guitar player hear. Don't give it up! There are things you can go on a classical that you just can't on a steel string. Actually, nylon strings are a lot easier on the fingers than those evil bronze monsters. Wide neck is not hard at all once you get used to it. It was what I was introduced to guitar on, so I find no problem with it...if fact sometimes I find the sttel-string neck too narrow. And if you thing I have big hands or something---I don't. I have very small hands and it is quite easy with practice to play F's and B's. Believe me, if you REALLY play classical guitar music, a full-barre F is a piece o cake. Test out some Villa-Lobos preludes. I played no.4 and it's a killer! But sounds so great!

--Matt

Subject: RE: Classical vs.steel string guitars
From:
Date: 17 Nov 00 - 05:38 AM

I would keep the classical until I ran into something I couldn't play with it. They have plenty of volume and projection. The bass strings sound much richer becasuse there are less high harmonics.

Although you can't get your thumb around a 2" neck, it is much easier to make barre chords with nylon strings.

You can play a lot of Mississippi John Hurt pieces with a classical. You can play a lot of Mance Lipscomb; but you will run into trouble when you try a Rev. Gary Davis piece in C. He often keeps the treble E string open and often does a hammer on on the third string. I can't see how to do that with a barre chord.

A number of country and western players use(d) classical guitars (with pickups). I think Chet Atkins did at one time.

As Don hinted. A number of 60s folk singers used classical guitar. You can certainly go through Happy Traum's "Pattern Picking" course with a classical guitar and having done that you can make effective accompanyment to a large selection of folk songs.

I peronally have one of each. I like to use open tuning and the nylon strings don't permit that. You can use dropped D on a classical and that D really sounds rich. Actually, I now have a third guitar. A LaPatrie. This is essentially a classical guitar; but it has a lower profile and slightly narrower neck. I can just get my thumb around to finger the bass E string and so play things a number of blues pieces, including Gary Davis pieces. For a while my classical and steel string sat in a corner while I played the LaPatrie exclusively. Eventually I got to miss open tuning and the steel string gets used again. So does the classical for classical music.

Murray

Subject: RE: Classical vs.steel string guitars
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 17 Nov 00 - 05:53 AM

I suspect that many of the volume differences with similar quality instruments are related to a steel strung often being played with either a flat pick or finger picks which do tend to produce more volume than plain finger nails.

I find the 2 instruments very different and as I am flat pick orientated (and too stupid to play with fingers), tend to prefer steel strung more suitable for me - I'm no good as a player but I find higher tension strings easier for what I try to do.

I'll probably get corrected by one of the (many) more knowledgable guitar players than me here but that is the way I see it. I also see comparing a (good) classical to a (good) steel strung comparable to comparing a Rolls Royce to a Ferrari - both great but built for very different uses.

Jon

Subject: RE: Classical vs.steel string guitars
From: Grab
Date: 17 Nov 00 - 07:35 AM

If you like your classical, keep it! Go to a guitar shop, have a play on some steel-strings, and see (a) whether you like the sound at all, and (b) whether you like any in your price-range. And to increase the volume and attack of your notes, make sure you get your fingernails in on the act - the typical soft-guitar-playing problem is with just using the pads of your fingers to pick instead of the nails as well.

On the blues-on-classical-guitar front, I submit Davey Graham.

Slide-wise, I'm currently practising on an old 3/4 classical until I can afford a Dobro. It's not great (the action's way too low), but it's good enough for home use.

Grab.

Subject: RE: Classical vs.steel string guitars
From:
Date: 18 Nov 00 - 02:25 AM

I played some slide with a classical. The action on most full-sized classical guitars is pretty high and I tuned to open E which puts more tension on the strings than normal tuning. As a result, it sounded good using a light-weight Dunlop glass slide. (I usually use a very heavy brass one with my steel string.)

Murray

Subject: RE: Classical vs.steel string guitars
From: GUEST,Marion
Date: 19 Nov 00 - 06:56 PM

Thank you for the input everybody.

Here's a thread I found with a similar question:

Advice please on types of guitar

Marion

Subject: RE: Classical vs.steel string guitars
From: Turtle
Date: 20 Nov 00 - 11:29 AM

Marion, you know, I don't play guitar and I don't know a heck of a lot about different types of guitars. But having read this whole thread, I think folks are right--if you can hang onto your classical guitar that you love, it would be a good thing.

As another beginning fiddler, I always enjoy reading your fiddle threads, too. I hope you'll let us know what you decide about the guitar.

Turtle

Subject: RE: Classical vs.steel string guitars
From: GUEST,J. Custer McCarthy
Date: 21 Nov 00 - 11:52 AM

Marion, et al: I just discovered these threads, and have enjoyed all of your views. Not many places to converse with fellow acoustic guitarists. I've played for over 35 years, fingerpicked for most of them, and almost always have kept both a steel and a nylon string guitar handy. I have a Gibson Blue Ridge for steel and a vintage Ovation Classic for nylon. I do a couple of half-assed classical numbers, and believe me, you sometimes need the extra neck width to make it through some passages. I love the mellow sound of the one, and the sharper tones of the other. If volume (without flatpicks) is an issue for you, check out an Ovation Classic. Yes, I was more of a traditionalist, and I think I can hear some noises about 'plastic guitars', but look before you heap! My Ovation puts out more decibels without a pick than most steel strings with one! Really! And the quality of tone is excellent. (I don't happen to like the Ovation steel sound, so don't judge by that.) Agreed, there are string-bangin' songs that I wouldn't submit my nylon strings to, and for many effects and styles there is only steel (or phosphor bronze to be exact.) But as an acoustician, having experienced the joys of both, I will never limit myself to just one or the other. I do have to say, though, that if you don't fingerpick... if you only play using a flatpick, you won't appreciate the subtleties of nylon. By the way, I use extra high tension Savarez strings, which provide the G and B (2nd & 3rd) strings nylon wound on nylon, which is a clearer ring and handles a bit more like steel strings. More expensive, but nylon strings last about four times as long as steel. There is a new American set with nylon wound strings now if you look for them, a little cheaper. Bottom line: Marion, get your classic back and suppliment it with a steel guitar!

Subject: RE: Classical vs.steel string guitars
From: GUEST,Brian
Date: 21 Nov 00 - 01:21 PM

If you love your classical that much, then don't sell it. You'll regret it when it's gone. If you want to buy a steel strung guitar, then save up and buy one. It's not a matter of one being better than the other, they're different. Feel different, sound different, suit different songs, and damn it, are just nice to have around.

The missus and I are shoe-horned into a tiny cottage, along with the kids, the dogs, and a whole heap of instruments - including classical and steel strung accoustics, and solid electrics too. Wouldn't part with one of them, despite the lack of room! We're looking for a bigger house instead. In the mean time, anyone want to buy some kids?

Seriously though, don't sell because other people think you should. Only if YOU want to.

That's my 2p's worth. Anybody got any change?

Cheers

Brian

Subject: RE: Classical vs.steel string guitars
From: GUEST,CraigS
Date: 21 Nov 00 - 08:08 PM

Both types of guitar have something going for them. The narrow neck of the steel-strung guitar allows the thumb to take a greater part in the left-hand fingering, as remarked above about Gary Davis, and also Leo Kottke. If you want to use a lot of different tunings, steel strings respond more rapidly and are more amenable to re-tuning. But the sound difference is in the harmonic response; steel strings generate twice as many harmonics agasinst nylon strings. This results in a "fuller sound" in contrast to nylon, making it harder to play some pieces where, with a nylon string guitar, the notes are distinct when picked. My advice is that, if you've got rid of the classic, get a Martin 0-16NY, which is designed for nylon strings but can be played with light steel or silk'n'steel strings; that way, if you regret the decision, you've got something that you can play either way.