Lyr Req: Whaur Gadie Rins

Subject: Whaur Gadie Rins
From: GUEST,Sarah
Date: 19 Nov 00 - 09:01 PM

I'm looking for the lyrics to the first verse of "Whaur Gadie Rins" as performed by the Old Blind Dogs on their "Live" CD. I've scoured the internet and come up with plenty of versions, but none of them are the same as I hear on the CD. By listening over and over, I've managed to discern most of the song, but the first verse eludes me...the braid Scots is a bit too braid for me there.

Thanks.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Whaur Gadie Rins
From: GUEST
Date: 19 Nov 00 - 09:57 PM

It's Gaudie, and in DT.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Whaur Gadie Rins
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Nov 00 - 08:04 AM

Actually, Sarah is right and the transcription in the DT is wrong; it's Gadie; a stream in Aberdeenshire which rises at the back of Bennachie Hill and flows into the Urie, a tributary of the Don. To expand just a little on Guest's comment: usually, finding a song round here isn't too hard once you're used to the idea that song titles vary a lot, and not just in the way they're spelled; often they will have a title quite different from what you might reasonably expect, so searching by keywords is often a better bet. (The "Digitrad and Forum Search" facility on the main Forum page is very good when it's working; unfortunately at present it's broken.) If you were to type gadie into the "Lyrics Search" box on this page, you would get Bennachie (2) which is a version of the song collected by Gavin Greig, with some useful background information. Logically, there must be a "Bennachie (1)"; if you now search for Bennachie you'll find the version you're looking for, though whoever transcribed it doesn't seem to have been terribly familiar with Scottish spelling. I know it seems a bit convoluted, but this is such a big site that a certain amount of lateral thinking can be a help when looking for things, particularly when the new search engine is off sick.

Malcolm

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Whaur Gadie Rins
From: GUEST,Dita
Date: 20 Nov 00 - 10:55 AM

Hamish Imlach recorded this on his first Xtra album (The White Album), the one with Black is the Colour and Cod Liver Oil.
I remember Hamish saying that "Gadie" had been written by a member of his family. (Great, great, grandfather or some such. Hamish was not one to make wild, unsubstantiated claims.
love, john.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Whaur Gadie Rins
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Nov 00 - 01:40 PM

There are 5 versions in 'The Greig-Duncan Folk Song Collection', VI, #1223. In the singer's title for their song it's 'Gadie' in two and 'Gaudie' in two (including the A version, the only one with a tune).

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Whaur Gadie Rins
From: GUEST,Sarah
Date: 20 Nov 00 - 09:49 PM

I went to Bennachie, as instructed, and am now doing a wild dance of joy. Thanks, Malcolm!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Whaur Gadie Rins
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 20 Nov 00 - 10:15 PM

Glad it worked.  This is not a good week, so far, to be searching for things!  A little more background:   So far as I know, the melody of "O If I were where Gadie Runs" (also known as "The Hessian's March") first appeared in print around 1820, though the tune is presumably considerably older, and the earliest set of words for it is traditionally ascribed to Arthur Johnston (born 1578).  A version of the song was put together by one John Imlah (1749-1846) of Aberdeen; presumably the putative ancestor Hamish Imlach spoke of.  A.L. Lloyd had this to say about the tune:  Probably the widest known version of the tune is the one commonly attached to the nursery rhyme: "If I had a donkey that wouldn't go, Would I beat him? Oh no, no".

(Information from "My Son David" and "O gin I were where Gadie Rins": A note on Tune Relationships and Local Song-Making"; David Porter, Folk Music Journal, vol.3 no.5, 1975).

Malcolm

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Whaur Gadie Rins
From: GUEST,CraigS
Date: 21 Nov 00 - 08:16 PM

While we're on the subject, I know what "lowrin'" is, but if anyone knows what the verse is about where "the king was killed at the lowrin'fair", please tell me. I know it baffled the aforesaid H Imlach, so I'm not alone!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Whaur Gadie Rins
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 12:19 AM

There isn't a king.  The line is generally "The tane (i.e. the one) was killed" or "There ane was killed", "The first was killed" or something similar.  Now that the Search facility is up and running again, I can refer you to this thread from last year:  Help! Old Blind Dogs lyrics: Bennachie.  Murray of Saltspring states there that "Lowrin or Lowren Fair... is "Lawrence Fair", the name of two fairs, one held in Rayne, Aberdeenshire ... and the other at Laurencekirk, Kincardineshire, in mid-August."  There are (Saint) Lawrence Fairs, usually on August 6th, in quite a lot of other places, too, not all in Scotland; including Kirkandrews (in Kirkcudbrightshire, where there is also a Lowran and a river Dee, as it happens), but the Aberdeenshire location does seem most likely in the circumstances.

Malcolm

Subject: Lyr Add: GIN I WERE WHAUR THE GAUDIE RINS
From: GUEST,eezer
Date: 30 Dec 03 - 06:25 PM

i live about 5 miles from Bennachie, and can tell you it's definately spelt "Gaudie", but pronounced "Gaddy" (like daddy).

The O.B.D version is very different to that in Ord's Bothy Ballads, and, if it'll help, i'll transcript it here.

As sung (doric version):

Gin i were whaur the gaudie rins, the gaudie rins, the gaudie rins
Gin i were whaur the gaudie rins, oot the back O'Bennachie

i niver had but twa richt lads, twa richt lads, twa richt lads
i niver had but twa richt lads, that dearly courted me

an' ane was killed at the laurin' fair, the laurin' fair, the laurin' fair
O' ane was killed at the laurin' fair, the ither was droont in the Dee

an' i gaed tae him the haunin' fine, the haunin' fine, the haunin' fine
i gaed tae him the haunin' fine, this mornin' dressed tae be

well he gaed tae me the linin fine, the linen fine, the linen fine
gaed tae me the linen fine, big windin' sheet it be

Gin i were whaur the gaudie rins, wi the bonny broom an' the yellow whims
Gin i were whaur the gaudie rins, oot the back O' Bennachie

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Whaur Gadie Rins
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 30 Dec 03 - 07:25 PM

It's good to hear that they've settled on a standard spelling. The majority of printed versions of the song (including John Imlah's) insist on the alternative "Gadie". I don't suppose OBD mentioned where they got that particular set, did they? Thanks for dealing with the long-unanswered question in the thread I linked to in the previous post; three years ago, now. How time flies...

Subject: Lyr Add: THE GAUDIE (from Hamish Imlach)
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 01 Jan 04 - 07:58 PM

Just in order to make clear the extent of Hamish Imlach's claims, here are the sleevenotes from his 'Scottish Sabbath' LP (1976):

"Die Melodie dieses Liedes stammt aus Hessen. Hessische Söldner in der britischen Armee hatten sie mitgebracht. In Schottland wurde es eine bekannte Dudelsack- und Geigenmelodie. Mein Urgroßvater, der Reverend John Imlach, machte einen Text dazu. (Ja, ich habe einen presbyterianischen Pastor als Vorfahren!)"
(The tune is originally from Hessia, brought over by Hessian mercenaries in the British army. In Scotland it became a popular tune for the fiddle and the pipes. My great-grandfather wrote a set of lyrics for it. (Yes, among my ancestors there is a Presbyterian pastor!))

I suppose that these are the lyrics Hamish used to sing. They go:

THE GAUDIE (translated as 'the salmon')

Chorus:
Oh gin I were where the Gaudie rins
Where the Gaudie rins, Gaudie rins
Gin I were where the Gaudie rins
At the foot o' Bennachie

I never had but twa richt lads
Dearly loved me
The tane was killed at the Lowrin' Fair
T' other was drooned in the Dee

Had they geen my love e'en man for man
Or yet a man tae three
But they crooded in so thick on him
He couldnae fecht or flee

He gie'd tae me the Holland fine
Our wedding dress tae be
I gie'd tae him the linen fine
His winding sheet tae be

The collection 'Songs of Scotland I' also states, "Written by John Imlah from Aberdeenshire, for some years tuner and traveller for Messrs. Broadwood & Sons. Published two volumes of poems and songs." I found this 19th-century (I believe) collection in the German Folk Song Archive at Freiburg some years ago. Unfortunately, due to a major refurbishment at the time I was thrown out before I could note down author and year, and compare the lyrics. I've been planning to go back ever since ...

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Whaur Gadie Rins
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 01 Jan 04 - 08:02 PM

Sorry, I forgot to say that I left out the repetitions in the above lyrics, so each verse is represented by two lines only. Should have split them up!

Subject: Lyr Add: OH, GIN I WERE WHERE GADIE RINS (J Imlah)
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 01 Jan 04 - 08:25 PM

John Imlah's text is in Songs of Scotland II, edited by Myles B. Foster (Boosey, n.d., pp. 112-113). Vol. I, edited by J. Pittman and Colin Brown, with notes by Dr Charles MacKay, is dated 1877. Imlah's text is rather different from the usual one (of which we have several variants here, now, some more reliable than others) but the tune is the same.


OH, GIN I WERE WHERE GADIE RINS

(John Imlah, 1749-1846)

Oh gin I were where Gadie rins,
Where Gadie rins, where Gadie rins,
Oh gin I were where Gadie rins,
By the foot o' Bennachie!

I've roamed by Tweed, I've roamed by Tay,
By border Nith and Highland Spey,
But dearer far to me than they,
The braes o' Bennachie!
Oh gin I were where Gadie rins...

When summer cleads the varied scene—
Wi' licht o' gowd and leaves o' green,
I fain wad be where aft I've been—
At the foot o' Bennachie!
Oh gin I were where Gadie rins...

When winter winds blaw sharp and shrill.
O'er icy burn and sheeted hill,
The ingle neuk is gleesome still
At the foot o' Bennachie!
Oh gin I were where Gadie rins...

Though few to welcome me remain;
Though a' I loved are dead and gane;
I'll back, though I should live alane,
To the foot o' Bennachie!
Oh gin I were where Gadie rins...

Subject: Lyr Add: OH! GIN I WERE WHERE GADIE RINS
From: masato sakurai
Date: 02 Jan 04 - 01:27 AM

The version in The Scottish Minstrel: The Songs of Scotland Subsequent to Burns, by Rev. Charles Rogers William P. Nimmo, 1872 ed., p. 271; lyrics only) and Maver's Collection of Genuine Scottish Melodies, edited by George Alexander (Robert Maver, n.d.[18??], p. 235; with music) is longer. The following text is from the former (differences from the latter are given in square brackets). John Imlah was born in North Street, Aberdeen, on the 15th November 1779.

OH![O!] GIN I WERE WHERE GADIE RINS

    Oh![O!] gin I were where Gadie rins,
    Where Gadie rins, where Gadie rins--
    Oh,[O!] gin I were where Gadie rins
       By the foot o' Bennachie!

I've roam'd by Tweed, I've roam'd by Tay,
By Border Nith, and Highland Spey,
But dearer far to me than they
    The braes o' Bennachie.

When blade and blossoms sprout in spring,
And bid the burdies[birdies] wag the wing,
They blythely bob, and soar, and sing
    By the foot o' Bennachie.

When simmer cleeds the varied scene
Wi' licht o' gow'd[gowd] and leaves o' green,
I fain woud[wad] be where aft I've been
    At the foot o' Bennachie.

When autumn's yellow sheaf is shorn,
And barn-yards stored wi' stooks o' corn,
'Tis blythe to toom the clyack horn
    At the foot o' Bennachie.

When winter winds blaw sharp and shrill
O'er icy burn and sheeted hill,
The ingle neuk is gleesome still
    At the foot o' Bennachie.

Though few to welcome me remain,
Though a' I loved[lov'd] be dead and gane,
I'll back, though, I should live alane,
    To the foot o' Bennachie.

   Oh,[O!] gin I were where Gadie rins,
   Where Gadie rins, where Gadie rins--
   Oh,[O!] gin I were where Gadie rins
       By the foot o' Bennachie.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Whaur Gadie Rins
From: masato sakurai
Date: 02 Jan 04 - 01:42 AM

"O Gin I Were Gadie Rins" is also in John Greig's Scots Minstrelsie, vol. I (1893).

p. 114
p. 115
p. 116
p. viii (notes)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Whaur Gadie Rins
From: masato sakurai
Date: 02 Jan 04 - 01:47 AM

Correction: Imlah was born in 1799.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Whaur Gadie Rins
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 02 Jan 04 - 07:12 PM

Thanks, Malcolm and Masato. Conclusion: Hamish is right in his claim that an ancestor wrote lyrics to the tune - but not the ones he sings! I've yet to check Hamish's other (earlier) recording I have. If that is closer to John Imlah's text I'll report back here.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Whaur Gadie Rins
From: Kenny B (inactive)
Date: 03 Jan 04 - 04:04 PM

I have this "version" Sung by/ Written by ?

GADIE RINS aka The BACK o' BENNACHIE

Chorus
There's meal and ale where the Gaddie rins,
Wi' the yellow broom and the bonnie whins,
There's meal and ale where the Gaddie rins,
At the back o' Bennachie

As I cam' 'roon fae Bennachie
A bonny lassie I did see,
I gaed her a wink and she smiled at me ,
At the back o' Bennachie, .... Chorus

Oh I took the lassie oan ma knee,
Her kilt was short abune her knee,
I says ma lassie will ye come wi' me,
Tae the back o' Bennachie, .... Chorus

I says tae her "Pit oan yer kilt,
Yer awfy braw an' gey well built,
Ye can wear yer plaidie alang wi' yer kilt,
At the back o' Bennachie, .... Chorus

Oh when her mither comes tae ken,
We hiv tae run noo frae oor hame,
And sleep in the heather up in the glen,
At the back o' Bennachie, .... Chorus

Oh here's tae the lassie o' Bennachie,
I'll never gang back there for tae see,
I'll bide wi' ma mither until ah dee,
At the back o' Bennachie, .... Chorus

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Whaur Gadie Rins
From: Susanne (skw)
Date: 03 Jan 04 - 04:59 PM

No idea, Kenny! Looks like a sort of parody, to prove it's not just the girls who suffer ...

Subject: Lyr Add: O! GIN I WERE WHARE GADIE ROWES (J Imlah)
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 08:27 AM

This may be the original, from "May Flowers. Poems and Songs: Some in the Scottish Dialect" By John Imlah, 1827.

O! GIN I WERE WHARE GADIE ROWES.

CHORUS: O! Gin I were whare Gadie rowes
Thro' rashie haughs and whinnie howes:
O! gin I were whare Gadie rowes,
By the fit o' Bennochie!

Whare partial nature loves to strew
The wildest flow'rs o' fairest hue
That sip the siller draps o' dew,
By the fit o' Bennochie.
O! gin I were, &c.

Whare wing the blithest o' the brood,
That charm the welkin an' the wood,
To lilt their notes in merriest mood, .
By the fit o' Bennochie!
O! gin I were, &c.

When Gadie glances back the beam
O' morning's shine—their smilings seem
On meeting lover's looks to gleam,
By the fit o' Bennochie!
O! gin I were &c.

There smiled the morning o' my life,
But syne I've been my Willie's wife
My day has dreed war's stormy strife,
Far, far, frae Bennochie.
O! gin I were &c.

Tho' kith an' kin hae closed on me
Their doors an' hearts that I should be
A sodger's wife—still lat me see
The fit o' Bennochie.
O! gin I were &c.

Then soon—oh! soon may bludeshed cease,
An' faes meet frien's to part in peace!
Then bliss will wi' our years increase,
By the fit o' Bennochie.
O! gin I were &c.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Whaur Gadie Rins
From: Scotus
Date: 12 Nov 07 - 10:34 AM

The version that Kenny B posted back in 04 seems very close to the great one that I remember being sung by Lizzie Higgins. Does anyone else remember her version?

Jack

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Whaur Gadie Rins
From: GUEST
Date: 01 May 09 - 02:27 AM

The best version of Gin I were where the Gaudie runs is by Robin Hall and Jimmy MacGregor. No wonder they wrote a song about that area as I was recently near bennachie and it's beautiful. Nicer than anywhere near Glasgow where I live with the exception of Loch Lomond :-) and the Ben. Aye yer right, I cant find the wordds tae this song anywhere

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Whaur Gadie Rins
From: BobKnight
Date: 01 May 09 - 07:30 AM

"Guest" Eezer (Dec '03)gave the lyrics:
"bonnie broom and the yellow whims" That should read "whins" which is gorse - a thorny bush with yellow blossom which grows prolifically on Scottish hillsides and moors.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: haunin ??
From: GUEST
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 11:08 AM

Cameron

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Whaur Gadie Rins
From: GUEST,Charles Macfarlane
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 12:35 PM

There was a band called Iolair of some twenty or thirty years back that did a nice version of 'Gadie Rins'.

However, spanner in works alert!

I have a version here photocopied from an old book in some UK public library or other*. All I can tell now is that the particular photocopy is of p100/101.

The version I have is headed ...

O Gin I Were Where The Gadie Rins
Words by Dr John Park
Arranged by T M Mudie

... and the lyrics are ...

O gin I were where Gadie rins,
Where Gadie rins,
Where Gadie rins,
O gin I were where Gadie rins,
At the back o' Bennachie.

Ance mair to hear the wild bird's sang
To wander birks and braes amang,
Wi' frien's and fav'rites left sae lang
At the back o' Bennachie.

Oh mony a day in the blythe springtime,
Oh mony a day in the simmer's prime,
I've wiled awa' my careless time,
At the back o' Bennachie.

O gin I were where Gadie rins,
'Mang fragrant heath and yellow whins,
Or brawling down the bosky linns,
At the back o' Bennachie.

O gin I were where Gadie rins,
Where Gadie rins,
Where Gadie rins,
O gin I were where Gadie rins,
At the back o' Bennachie.

Oh! There with Jean on ilka nicht,
When baith our hearts were young and licht,
We've wandered by the cool moonlicht
At the back o' Bennachie.

But fortune's flow'rs wi' thorns are rife,
And wealth is won by toil and strife,
Ae day gi' me o' youthfu' life
At the back o' Bennachie.

Ance mair, ance mair, where Gadie rins,
Where Gadie rins, where Gadie rins,
Oh micht I dee where Gadie rins,
At the back o' Bennachie.

* I did a lot of this at one time, but as I was just looking for the words and music for songs I knew I liked rather than researching, I never wrote down in which books I found the music, so, as here, I usually have no idea which book a particular photocopy came from, or exactly how old the book was. Recently I scanned all my loose sheet music, and cleaned the results up by removing the usual photocopying toner blemishes, etc. So if it's any help I can put it up on my site.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Whaur Gadie Rins
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 02:13 PM

Re [belatedly] words posted by Susanne on 1 Jan 2004 ~~
which have it that one of narrator's "richt lads" was killed "at the Lowrin' Fair" --

I recall that Robin Hall, whose version with Jimmy MacGregor is mentioned above, used to express this as "killed in lower [or lour?] unfair", which he glossed as "in unfair battle" ~~ which fits better with Susanne's later verse about how he was not allowed to fight one-to-one, but was outnumbered.

I cannot however find anywhere a gloss of 'lower/lour' to mean a battle or a fight. Does it exist in any dialect. As I say, it would make good sense in the context.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Whaur Gadie Rins
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 02:15 PM

We always had it as Lowren's Fair which I always took to be a place...

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Whaur Gadie Rins
From: Megan L
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 02:33 PM

Old Rayne in Aberdeenshire still has a Lourin fair.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Whaur Gadie Rins
From: Megan L
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 02:36 PM

drat senior moment i meant to post this Lourin fair

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Whaur Gadie Rins
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 03:23 PM

Cheers, Megan - that tidies that up. I got it off my old oppo Clive Powell who got it off Jane Turriff so it's a wee bit different here and there.

Oh I wish I was where the Gadie rins
Through the brawlin' wheat an' the yellow whins
Aye an' loupin o'er the bogie lins
At the fit o' Bennachie

Weenst a had twa braw lads,
twa braw lads, twa bra lads,
Weenst a had twa braw lads,
But noo I havna naen

One was killed at the Lourin Fair,
Lourin Fair, Lowrin Fair,
One was killed at the Lourin Fair,
The ithery ane was drowned in the deep (sea or Dee?)

They crowded in sae thick on him,
sae thick on him, sae thick on him,
They crowded in sae thick on him,
He couldna fight not flee

Oh I wish I was where the Gadie rins
Through the brawlin' wheat an' the yellow whins
Aye an' loupin o'er the bogie lins
At the fit o' Bennachie.

Most of it I can account for, though not bogie lins, though that's how Jane gave it to Clive, or least how Clive gave it to me. Suggestions?

But - gosh. It's weird reading a post and seeing Malcolm's name. Now there was a richt braw lad if ever there was one. Much missed.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Whaur Gadie Rins
From: Megan L
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 04:03 PM

been thinking about that line Blandiver the best i can come up with that would make any sense is "loupin oe'r the boggy linn" a linn being an old word for a waterfall or pond usually found at the bottom of a waterfall. I dont remember the locallity well enough to remember if it would fit but a waterfall on a scottish hill need not be of niagra proportions or even the grey mares tail It could be where it rummles ower rocks with no great hiegt involved.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Whaur Gadie Rins
From: Jim McLean
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 04:42 PM

the tame was killed at the Louren Fair (unsure spelling) but a definite event, MtheGM, and sung thus by McGregor and Hall. Lour is a Scottish word meaning 'threaten' as in Scots wha hae .... see the front o' battle lour.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Whaur Gadie Rins
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 04:43 PM

Perfect! And such a fine image. Like. Like. Like!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Whaur Gadie Rins
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 05:16 PM

So what does 'Louren Fair' mean? If it is a fair, why is anyone killed at it, outnumbered? Whereas, if 'lour', in the sense of threaten or look loweringly [Chambers], did have the specialist meaning of battle, and it were unfair [as he was outnumbered and could 'neither fight nor flee'], would that not make some sense?

I repeat, that was how Robin Hall, who was a friend of mine from old Princess Louise days when he first came to London, always glossed that line before singing the song.

So, Jim McLean, yours as repro'd 2 posts above, where you say 'as sung by ... Hall', does not represent what he thought he was singing. Did you know him, or ever talk to him about it?

~M~

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Whaur Gadie Rins
From: Megan L
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 05:30 PM

jings MtheGM the modern equivelent in Orkney would be the county show believe me as the section leader for the first aid team for many years we had a fair number of bust heads to mend. fights at fairs are nothing new.

Blandiver it is probably Dee as in the river Dee i am trying to remember a verse i learned as a child about a conversation between the two rivers the Don and the dee where the slower flowing river says to to the other words along the lines of "Where you drown one i'll drown three"

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Whaur Gadie Rins
From: Jim McLean
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 05:35 PM

MtheGM, I not only knew Robin but produced a couple of LPs with him and Jimmie, plusI solo recordings of Robin.
Robin, like Jimmie, was a Glasgow man and in those days, the songs were sung without any meaningful research. Robin was one of the finest singers I knew and you can take it from me I spent many a night with them both discussing Scottish songs. Robin's knowledge about Scottish literature then was lacking in any depth. Dominic Behan once chased him down the road, hitting him over the head with a copy of Burns's poetry, so incensed was Dominic at Robin's ignorance.
My degree in Scottish ethnology from Edinburgh University is a testament to the time and research I devoted to this subject.
I think you're reading too much into this song. One of the girl's boyfriends was killed at the fair and the other was drowned in the river.
You won't find any meaning of 'lour' to mean a fight but as it has nothing to do with the song it's irrelevant.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Whaur Gadie Rins
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 06:24 PM

I agree that Robin was a hard man to tell things to ~~ he tended to want to know best. But I too had much conversation with him. He often sang at the Troubadour which was close to where I lived; and on nights he couldn't be fashed to make his way home to his distant suburb, or had missed the last bus or tube, he would come & crash out on my bedroom floor: so you can imagine that many a crack we would have had. I merely reiterate that what he thought he was singing was "lour unfair", which he thought meant "unfair battle". And as he was a Scot and I wasn't...

& it still seems to me that a fair is an odd place to be killed at. I bow to your etymological knowledge; but can make nor head nor tail as to why a man who had gone to a fair should be killed by enemies who outnumbered him so much that he couldna fight or flee. What 'historical event', as you call it above, is referred to here? As Megan says, rumbles and busted heads might occur on such occasions: but fatalities wherein
"They crowded in sae thick on him,
sae thick on him, sae thick on him,
They crowded in sae thick on him,
He couldna fight not flee" ~~

Why, whatever could the polis have been doing?

In what way am I "reading too much into the song"? Are you a Dickens reader? One of my things, I fear, is that like Arthur Clennam in Little Dorrit, I am one who "wants to know, you know". Sorry if it's a bore.

~M~

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Whaur Gadie Rins
From: Jim McLean
Date: 25 Jul 12 - 06:50 PM

MtheGM, read Megan L's post above and I'm sure your query about the polis was tongue in cheek. There's nothing boring about wanting to know ... a disease I have suffered from for a long time. You are welcome, of course, to continue your research into this song but I think the answers have already been given. Sleep well.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Whaur Gadie Rins
From: Megan L
Date: 26 Jul 12 - 04:13 AM

This has been fun getting me back to my books and dredging up memories.

The trades holiday in Glasgow is still caled the Glasgow Fair the last vestige of the hiring fair which started it was still to be seen in the funfair which came to Glasgow Green at that time. I remember one year seing a bucket filled with knives and other small weapons that had fallen out of pockets or been hurrildly dropped through the boards of the rides when the polis unexpectedly turned up.

The night watch was set up in Aberdeen City in if I remember rightly 1816 although there had been Toun Gaurds since the middle of the 16th century. That was in the city, way out in the country law was less formal and situations could arise between feuding families. An example of that led to a murder in the street in Kirkwall in 1726 when Sir James Stewart and his brother Alexander murdered Captain James Moodie in the open street in front of witnesses yet were never aprehended or brought to trial.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Whaur Gadie Rins
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 26 Jul 12 - 04:26 AM

Where you drown one i'll drown three

I'll go with Dee. Your mention of the rhyme has me reaching for my trusty facsimile of Denham Tracts - a Few Pictures of Olden Time in connexion with The North of England (collected in an edition of 50 by M.A.Denham in 1858 & republished by Frank Graham in an edition of 700 in 1974) on page 92 of which we find this:

Tweed said to Till
'What makes ye run so still?'
Till said to Tweed,
'Tho' ye run wi' speed,
And I run slaw,
Yet where ye drown ae man,
I drown twa.'

He gives a couple of variorum readings including:

Till said to Tweed,
What makes ye rin sae reed?
Tweed said to Till,
What makes ye rin sae still?
Till said to Tweed,
Though fast ye rin,
And still I gaun,
Yet I drown twae men
Where ye drown yen.

There's also this:

Says the Pont to the Blyth,
'Where thou drowns yan, I drown five!'
Says the Blyth to the Pont,
'The mair sham on't!'

I'm sure such Rival River Lore isn't unique to Scotland & Northumberland. Maybe it deserves a separate thread??

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Whaur Gadie Rins
From: Megan L
Date: 26 Jul 12 - 04:32 AM

Thanks Blandiver such rhymes probably arose wherever two rivers ran close.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Whaur Gadie Rins
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 26 Jul 12 - 10:39 AM

MtheGM: I'm with you. Here we see all these versions about the river Gadie and the mountain Bennachie. The songs are nostalgic, praising the natural beauties of home. Then somebody sticks in a verse about some poor guy getting beaten to death.

In the movies, they call that 'gratuitous violence.' Maybe some printer thought he could sell a few more copies of this old song if he stuck in some violence.

I say, put it in the Great Garbage Can in the Sky.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Whaur Gadie Rins
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 26 Jul 12 - 11:26 AM

If we removed all the violence from folk song - what's left? People get beaten to death all the time - there's always a reason (but never an excuse) which is what this song is hinting at by way of simple reportage.

Violence is a fact of human life; it's impact is massive, especially when it results in a death, or worse (rape & mental disability). By singing such songs, we deal with it in the abstract, so we might better deal with it in the real world where random persecutions daily result in the most horrific consequences. However exceptional these might be statistically, the gutter press will always use them to keep the population terrified of what is no more common a feature of life now than it ever was. Maybe the Broadsheet Sellers had a gentler approach to such catharthis, however sensationalised - or maybe sensation is part and parcel of the experience?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Whaur Gadie Rins
From: MGM·Lion
Date: 26 Jul 12 - 12:08 PM

Indeed, Sean Thank you leneeia; but I was not precisely objecting to the presence of violence in the song, but querying the precise meaning to be attributed to some of the words in which it is narrated.

~Michael~

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Whaur Gadie Rins
From: Northerner
Date: 27 Jul 12 - 05:37 AM

I have a recording on tape about 1973 of Janice Clark of Aberdeen singing this (she went on to be in Iolair). I also have a CD of Stanley Robertson called "The College Boy" and he sings this on the CD; words are provided. There are probably several versions so you sing the one you like. I used to live in Aberdeen. I keep adding to my repertoire and with its chorus and lovely melody this is one for me to add.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Whaur Gadie Rins
From: Scabby Douglas
Date: 27 Jul 12 - 07:22 AM

Regarding songs about natural beauty and in praise of the landscape, versus dramatic events, violence and death.

Have a quick browse through traditional songs, and those that have a narrative structure heavily feature what might be considered lurid, or "gratuitous" violence.

It's not in any way unusual. What is unusual in the oldest traditional songs is any notion that the natural world is beautiful, or worthy of praise. From perhaps the 18th century onward, the modern poetic viewpoint emerges, and it's from then that we get lots of idyllic "isn't Nature lovely?" songs and poems.

So I think it highly likely that the versions of "Gadie" which go on about the fragrant heath, yellow whins and bosky linns, etc, are later "improvements" on the old song about drowning, murder, and burial...

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Whaur Gadie Rins
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 27 Jul 12 - 09:13 AM

See the 1893 version linked above. The links are still good. It's a typical song of nostalgia and remembrance.

I was intrigued by the phrase 'back of Bennachie.' What exactly would be the back of a mountain? Wikipedia has a nice article about Bennachie, which is actually a range of mountains, not a single mountain. There are photos and a description. Just google 'Bennachie.'

I suppose the 'back of Bennachie' is merely the side of the range which is less inhabited.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Whaur Gadie Rins
From: Scabby Douglas
Date: 27 Jul 12 - 09:41 AM

Sorry, I should have been more clear - around these parts a song from 1893 is not "really old".

Well, ok, maybe it's "really old".

Just not "really, really old"

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Whaur Gadie Rins
From: GUEST,Ewan McVicar
Date: 27 Jul 12 - 02:27 PM

Jim I think will know better than I do about the following, but Aberdeen singer Danny Couper recently quoted the 'There's meal and ale' verse above to me, said it was from the singing of Maggie Stewart, and I should seek her out as a very fine singer. The latest 3 CD Topic compilation of ballads just came in the post, and I see her name on a couple of tracks, [not including the Gaudie / Gadie song].
Just last month I was writing new songs out of old ones with small schools around Huntly. The Gadie Burn ran by one of the schools, and also down at the foot of the brae where I was staying overnights.
Ewan McViar

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Whaur Gadie Rins
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 27 Jul 12 - 07:56 PM

The Back o' Bennachie is on the northern side of the ridge, and probably is the more rugged side. The Gadie runs there near the village of Oyne,There are 4 car parks around the foot of the hills, one of which is then Back o' Bennachie car park. There's a suitable reminder to remember which car park you left your car in and to return to same!
Have heard both versions of the chorus, the "meal and ale" one also from Geordie Murieson, and it does seem to be the more popular one with current North-East Scotland singers.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Whaur Gadie Rins
From: GUEST,Blandiver
Date: 02 Aug 12 - 12:07 PM

Just heard from my mate Clive who sends me this:

Aa whist I was where the Gadie rins
Mang the braalin wheat and the yella whins
And lowpin o'er the bogie linns at the fit o Bennachie

Eenst I had twa braw lads, twa braw lads, twa braw lads
Aye eenst I had twa braw lads
But noo I havenae neen

Een was killed in Lowrins fair, Lowrins Fair, Lowrins Fair
Een was killed in Lowrins fair and the itherin was drooned in the Dee

They crowded in sae thick on him, sae thick on him, sae thick on him
Sae thick on him he couldnae fecht or flee

- Learnt by Clive Powell from Lizzie Higgins (not Jane Turrif as I thought) - a piping version her father Donald Higgins sang.