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Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???

catspaw49 22 Nov 00 - 08:48 AM
Naemanson 22 Nov 00 - 08:55 AM
CarolC 22 Nov 00 - 09:01 AM
Jon Freeman 22 Nov 00 - 09:19 AM
catspaw49 22 Nov 00 - 09:28 AM
alison 22 Nov 00 - 09:31 AM
GUEST,Roger the skiffler 22 Nov 00 - 09:40 AM
SINSULL 22 Nov 00 - 09:51 AM
kendall 22 Nov 00 - 09:58 AM
catspaw49 22 Nov 00 - 10:05 AM
Jeri 22 Nov 00 - 10:12 AM
Jon Freeman 22 Nov 00 - 10:59 AM
GUEST,Big Mick 22 Nov 00 - 11:06 AM
Jon Freeman 22 Nov 00 - 11:18 AM
GUEST,Kernow Jon 22 Nov 00 - 11:20 AM
jeffp 22 Nov 00 - 11:22 AM
mousethief 22 Nov 00 - 11:23 AM
GUEST,Kernow Jon 22 Nov 00 - 11:23 AM
KathWestra 22 Nov 00 - 11:27 AM
Dave the Gnome 22 Nov 00 - 11:38 AM
GUEST,Bill in Alabama 22 Nov 00 - 11:38 AM
GUEST,Fibula Mattock 22 Nov 00 - 11:49 AM
mousethief 22 Nov 00 - 12:05 PM
katlaughing 22 Nov 00 - 12:09 PM
Morticia 22 Nov 00 - 12:14 PM
Max 22 Nov 00 - 12:27 PM
SINSULL 22 Nov 00 - 12:35 PM
GUEST,Sarah 22 Nov 00 - 12:56 PM
mousethief 22 Nov 00 - 12:58 PM
Clinton Hammond2 22 Nov 00 - 01:27 PM
Jon Freeman 22 Nov 00 - 01:42 PM
mousethief 22 Nov 00 - 01:47 PM
Clinton Hammond2 22 Nov 00 - 01:52 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Nov 00 - 02:01 PM
GUEST,Kernow Jon 22 Nov 00 - 02:15 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Nov 00 - 02:54 PM
GUEST,kernow Jon 22 Nov 00 - 03:50 PM
Hollowfox 22 Nov 00 - 04:44 PM
mousethief 22 Nov 00 - 05:07 PM
AllisonA(Animaterra) 22 Nov 00 - 05:08 PM
Song Dog 22 Nov 00 - 05:24 PM
Jon Freeman 22 Nov 00 - 05:27 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Nov 00 - 05:35 PM
Banjer 22 Nov 00 - 05:38 PM
okthen 22 Nov 00 - 06:19 PM
katlaughing 22 Nov 00 - 06:53 PM
Don Firth 22 Nov 00 - 07:18 PM
Alice 22 Nov 00 - 07:54 PM
katlaughing 22 Nov 00 - 08:33 PM
MMario 22 Nov 00 - 08:39 PM
Jeri 22 Nov 00 - 08:48 PM
McGrath of Harlow 22 Nov 00 - 08:49 PM
Alice 22 Nov 00 - 09:17 PM
RichM 22 Nov 00 - 11:01 PM
katlaughing 22 Nov 00 - 11:37 PM
Jon Freeman 23 Nov 00 - 08:05 AM
catspaw49 23 Nov 00 - 09:02 AM
Jeri 23 Nov 00 - 09:47 AM
jets 23 Nov 00 - 10:05 AM
Mooh 23 Nov 00 - 10:19 AM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Nov 00 - 02:06 PM
dick greenhaus 23 Nov 00 - 04:42 PM
George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca 23 Nov 00 - 05:12 PM
Peter K (Fionn) 23 Nov 00 - 05:15 PM
GUEST,Liam's Brother 23 Nov 00 - 05:24 PM
Lyrical Lady 23 Nov 00 - 05:34 PM
Long Firm Freddie 23 Nov 00 - 06:00 PM
hesperis 23 Nov 00 - 06:24 PM
GUEST 23 Nov 00 - 07:09 PM
GUEST,CarolC (at her parent's house in Wheaton) 23 Nov 00 - 09:06 PM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Nov 00 - 09:15 PM
katlaughing 23 Nov 00 - 09:51 PM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Nov 00 - 10:28 PM
Alice 24 Nov 00 - 12:08 AM
katlaughing 24 Nov 00 - 12:15 AM
Alice 24 Nov 00 - 12:26 AM
Song Dog 24 Nov 00 - 12:40 AM
Song Dog 24 Nov 00 - 12:47 AM
dwditty 28 Nov 00 - 07:00 AM
R! 28 Nov 00 - 09:33 PM
annamill 29 Nov 00 - 02:34 PM
NightWing 29 Nov 00 - 05:20 PM
Ferrara 30 Nov 00 - 01:08 PM
bbelle 30 Nov 00 - 01:45 PM
Ferrara 30 Nov 00 - 01:59 PM
Max 30 Nov 00 - 02:04 PM
MMario 30 Nov 00 - 02:09 PM
WyoWoman 30 Nov 00 - 10:19 PM
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Subject: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 08:48 AM

Since this discussion hasn't begun yet, let me fill you in for those of you who missed the Radio Show.

Max is in trouble here. We all know how much of his own time and money have gone into this site, and gawd knows we all appreciate it. But its time to look at something else, because the kid is about to go belly-up in his other business and there is no way to support the 'Cat if Onstage goes bankrupt.

Many of us have sent in contrributions over the years, but this is not a request for another fundraiser.

What we need here is a way to bring in at least $350.00 a month (Max's figure), but more like $700.00 a month (my figure). We can't keep having occasional fundraisers!!! We need a SOLID AND GUARANTEED MONTHLY INCOME to support this place.

Max is looking into option and much to his own disgust, because he hates them, he is HAVING to look into banner ads, which, because of the traffic here is a good possibility. There are some other things too, but unless WE DO SOMETHING FOR THE LONG TERM, we live with the very real possibility that the doors will close here. Period.

Got any ideas?

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: Naemanson
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 08:55 AM

Ouch! I guess the lottery tickets didn't pay off after all.

There comes a time when the medicine, no matter how unpalatable, has to be swallowed. Unless there is some other wealthy benefactor the banner ads may be the way to go.

I don't like it but I know of no other way.

Unless, of course we want to start the Mudcat Excort Service. Mudmen and Mudwomen selling their bodies for the cause.


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: CarolC
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 09:01 AM

If I and 69 other people sent in $10.00 a month, Max would have $700.00 a month. If 140 people sent in $5.00 a month, Max would have $700.00 a month.

If there aren't enough people using the Mudcat who would be willing to send in five or ten dollars a month to use this amazing place, then maybe banner ads are the way to go.

Carol


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 09:19 AM

I reckon that even I on unemployment benifit could afford $5 a month although I like many others have the added complication of sending money from outside the US.

I do have my doubts about a regular payment or subscription system though as I fear it would enievatibly create an "us and them" situation (paid members and others) and I can see the question "well I pay, do you?" cropping up when things get a little heated or when a comment is made about Mudcat.

Personally, much as I hate banner ads, I prefer that option to a situation where there wouldbe a hard core of regular contibuters or subscribers.

Jon


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 09:28 AM

And that is of course th problem as I see it to Jon. I'd be happy to send in 5 or 10 or something on a yearly, maych or half my internet bill maybe.......but I see a possible war as you do and nobody wants that.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: alison
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 09:31 AM

stick the ads on Max.. we see them everywhere else and ignore them... we can ignore them here too.....

slainte

alison


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: GUEST,Roger the skiffler
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 09:40 AM

Yes, banner ads, we can always ignore them, and people lie Elderly or Lark in the Morning should really benefit from being "In your face". ..and if it's Lexus or Cartier, we can always dream...
RtS


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: SINSULL
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 09:51 AM

I am amazed at Max's ability to create, build, and fund a place like the Mudcat without insisting on total control. I would have this place organized to distraction - and ruin it. For that reason I have real concerns about "Regular Donations" and the input they might imply.
I am Ok with the banners, sort of.
But doesn't anyone have access to a lawyer who can get us through the "Not For Profit" applications at a reasonable fee? And what if anything can be done to keep Onstage alive?


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: kendall
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 09:58 AM

The donation idea sounds good, but, I'm afraid it would be like NPR. Only a fraction of the listeners donate, thinking, I guess, that someone else will keep it going. I reluctantly vote for the banner ads. Alison is right.


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 10:05 AM

Also good questions Sins. I meant to include the need for an attorney on the C-Corp thing. And obviously any ideas too for Onstage would be great.

Larry Otway where are you? We need an attorney here! I have had C-Corp forms done by an accountant but I gather Max' doesn't do them. How about one of you Florida 'Catters grabbing a lawyer who's futzing around down there.(:<))

Keep the info coming folks. I'm leaving for the hospital soon, but I'll check back in tonight.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: Jeri
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 10:12 AM

I'm trying to rack my brains for ideas. Some of these are bound to be bad ones - I'm only brainstorming.

We're a little slow with the auction. High end items don't sell very well, because most of us don't have the money. It's my feeling the little things would add up, and people don't have a problem buying something for $10 - $20. Of course the problem with this is we'd have to continue putting stuff up.

Benefit concerts - more for fundraisers than continuing income.

Having donation jars at gigs, sessions, your favorite bar.

CD. We've talked about this before, but it seems like it's too difficult to get off the ground, and there's money required up front. A quality CD of 'Catters, perhaps singing songs from the DT. A CD of people singing Mudcat songs is fine, if you only want to sell the CD to hard-core Mudcatters.

Digital Tradition CD. It's quite likely Dick feels like he shouldn't charge more for this than it costs him to make, but most folks - even us poor ones - wouldn't have a problem with paying at least $15 - $20 for a copy. (Plus it's still down-loadable for free.)

I'm forgetful and lazy. If there were a way (and I will check on this) to have my bank automatically send $10 a month to Mudcat, I'd do it.

Mudcat Coffeehouse. Have it once a month, and don't pass around a can for donations - charge admission. $3 - $5.

The banner adds may be a necessity in the end, but Max can choose whose add(s) he puts up. Most sites seem to have sponsors of some sort, and I'll understand if he goes that route.

Naemanson - lottery?!?!? We could do that, if it were easier to physically get the money to Max. Nobody's going to want to write a check for $1. One idea is to have a drawing for something like a song or tunebook. Folks in various areas could publicise it and sell tickets. We collect the tickets and donations and send them to Max, he does the drawing and makes sure the winner gets the prize. Of course, this would require more work and responsibility on our parts than would be reasonable, sensible, or likely to happen.

I don't know that the problem is the willingness to donate rather than the difficulty in donating smaller sums of money. If there were an easy way for folks to drop a dollar or two on occasion, it would make things a lot easier, but I can't see one.


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 10:59 AM

Just thinking on some of what Jeri has said. I am not talking strictly in structure here as I don't know the situation but, IMO, the biggest asset within Mudcat is the DT database.

Mudcat songbooks of songs written by Mudcatters, etc. are of little interest outside Mudcat but could DT collections be published and turned into books? This is really one for Dick Greenhaus but I have a feeling that there would be a number of people willing to help provide notation etc. and that such collections, say for example "The DT book of bawdy songs" could prove marketable.

Just throwing an idea out that may prove to be stupid.

Jon


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: GUEST,Big Mick
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 11:06 AM

Survival is the paramount concern here. The Mudcat MUST survive. Max must do whatever it takes to make that the case. But in saying that, I am saying that we must be willing to be right there with him to do whatever it takes to get it done. If banner ads are the way, then that is how we will do it. I am with you Max.

Mick


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 11:18 AM

Hey Mick, why don't we change the above to "The Mudcat WILL survive?

Jon


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: GUEST,Kernow Jon
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 11:20 AM

Banner ads are OK by me and I would be more than happy to approach someone like Hobgoblin UK for sponsorship if Max requires it.
I for one can't wait for the next edition of the Mudcat Database to come out and would have no problem paying for it. I have willingly payed out over £20 for Kennedy's Folksongs of Britain and Ireland (360 songs)and the Catbase has to be at least as good a value. (<15 pints of the black stuff)
Whatever it takes Max!
KJ


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: jeffp
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 11:22 AM

If banner ads are what it takes to ensure that the Mudcat survives, then banner ads it will be. I can certainly live with it. If that is the way it goes, be sure to click on them occasionally to visit the sponsors' sites. That way they know their ads are having some effect and they are more likely to keep them here.

jeffp


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: mousethief
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 11:23 AM

Go for the banner ads. They're relatively harmless, and I have actually bought stuff through banner ads before, so they're at least marginally useful.

Alex


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: GUEST,Kernow Jon
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 11:23 AM

Payed! what's bloody payed mean forgive a Foriegner from Curnow mutilating the language.
KJ


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: KathWestra
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 11:27 AM

My vote is for Max to do whatever it takes to keep this community going. If that's banner ads, then so be it. They would surely be a more predictable source of income for Max than wondering if a given month's donations were going to be enough to keep the virtual doors open.

That said, it shouldn't stop those of us who care about the 'Cat from coughing up whatever we can afford whenever we can. I've done so in the past. This is a reminder that I need to do it again.

Thanks, Pat, for raising hte issue. And (thread creeping just a little) I hope and pray that you, Karen, and your boys will be spending Thanksgiving Day together AT HOME. Fingers crossed and thinking loving thoughts. Kath


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 11:38 AM

Is there no organisation in the US like the UK's arts council? How about a grant if there is?

The criterea for funding are generaly on a "who benefits" basis and I can think of no better organisation than the Mudcat for helping everyone, regardless of colour, creed, sex, social status or financial standing.

Failing that banner adds are fine by me (I usualy switch off graphics if they start to annoy!)

Dave the Gnome


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: GUEST,Bill in Alabama
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 11:38 AM

Go for the Banner Ads


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: GUEST,Fibula Mattock
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 11:49 AM

Banner ads. Especially if they're relevant ones (which I supose they will be given the whole point of marketing to a target audience). One of the lovely things about the Mudcat is that it's free. There's nothing more off-putting than logging on somewhere, finding the information you need, and then having to fork out a certain amount before you can access it. As Dave the Gnome points out, grants would be good and such an important archive as the DT would certainly meet the criteria.


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: mousethief
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 12:05 PM

Kernow, my dictionary says "payed" is acceptable as past tense of "pay" if you're using the sense of paying out rope. And you did say "payed out" -- maybe you were thinking of paying out money as being similar to paying out a fishing line, or an anchor rope, or your trawling nets.

Or maybe you're just a nincompoop. I can't tell.

Alex


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 12:09 PM

Banner Ads would be fine, Max, esp. if they would guarantee a set income for you.

I bank online now and can set up a monthly payment to happen every month on the date I choose. If all of us who can do that would, even a small amount like $5-10, it would add up. It is an easy and painless way to give. I used to do so with NPR.

What is going on with Onstage? I missed the show because of an outdated RealPlayer.

kat


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: Morticia
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 12:14 PM

Well, I'd happily sell my body but at 50 cents a go,it would take a long time to raise much money.......I think banner ads would be more profitable.


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: Max
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 12:27 PM

Don't panic, Onstage is not dead yet, just limping, and I'm not giving up.

We've lost a lot of elves in 2000 that made it hard to keep current clients happy and reduced our general skill pool to do certain jobs... fewer services to offer. My personal problems didn't help the business in 2000 either.

I don't mean to worry anyone, but thinking about the future of Onstage got me thinking about the future of the Mudcat. I just want to make them independent of each other thereby taking at least one responsibility off of Onstage, therefor me. I may lose interest in Onstage, but I will never lose interest in the Mudcat. Onstage and Mudcat have been putting me in a hole that is close to 6ft. Creditors will give me no more, so I just need to prioritize my life to just stop losing money. Thus the part time job (maybe 2 classes next semester) and other evaluations and changes.

The Mudcat has always paid me with moral reward that certainly makes it all worth it. Unfortunately the real world doesn't aacept Karma Credit. I'm not sure about the future, I just think its smart to make some contingency plans just in case. Because anything is possible. For instance, what if I go mad? What will happen to the Mudcat then? Oh… never mind.


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: SINSULL
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 12:35 PM

Well, we will just tuck you away in a private room at the Neil Young Center until you are all better. And Cletus and Spaw will take care of things while you are gone.

Maybe this problem isn't just Max's. And maybe we need to come up with some ideas that will not require additional Maxtime. I had a minor panic attack thinking about life without a Mudcat. This four day weekend will give me some time to think.


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: GUEST,Sarah
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 12:56 PM

Hey, gently, mousethief; after all, KJ was correcting himself, as you'd see if you looked at his previous message. A well-constructed message is devoutly to be desired, but we all make errors in grammar and spelling, so let's get back to the issue and drop the snide comments.

I've only now found this wonderful place; I don't want to promptly lose it.

Banner ads from the likes of Green Linnet or Musician's Friend or such would probably be a good solution. I have, personally, nothing against finding advertising on a website, if it's pertinent to the site's visitors.

It would give the Mudcats time to come up with some other good ideas for continuing the income to keep this most excellent site rolling along.

Sarah


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: mousethief
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 12:58 PM

Um, that's why I used a stupid word like "nincompoop" rather than a harsh invective -- to show I was being silly.

Sense of humour NOT optional.

Alex


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Subject: ya gonna click 'em folks?
From: Clinton Hammond2
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 01:27 PM

ummm... didn't -I- suggest this about a year ago and get slapped all over the place?!?!?!?!

There's nothing at all wrong with banner adds, but you catters above who say "ya sure put 'em up and I'll just ignore 'em" are totally missing the point... Banner adds only generater $$ from hits... so to make Max $$ you have to be sure to click them and visit the sponsors sites... Now -I- have no problem wioth that at all, provided the sponsors sites interest me... Young Lathered Teens for instance! LOL!!!!!

The other option is to find a place like Fandom.com and join them... Fandom is a domain to support movies, comic books, insider news, harry potter and a bunch of other geek activities... And it's ticking over quite nicely thank you... I think Mudcat could do worse to join them... And we'd reap the benifits of all that Fandom has to offer...

or... evey catter could take a 'package' to thier local folk club and see if they'd be willing to throw their support toward mudcat in exchange for a little promotion or such like?

If i can think of any other ideas, I'll come back and suggest 'em...

:-)


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 01:42 PM

Mousethief, I am mystified as to why you even had to use the word nincompoop in a thread covering a subject that is of great concern to all of us.

I think that banner ads will prove to be best solution to provide Mudcat with a necessary regular income but there may be other solutions/ and/or "extras". Why not dazzle us with some relevant creative thought instead of "showing you are being sillly".

Jon


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: mousethief
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 01:47 PM

Sorry. I will never tell another joke again as long as I live.

Sheesh.


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: Clinton Hammond2
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 01:52 PM

You'd better MT!

You don't post anything else worth readin' but yer jokes!!!

LOL!

{-:


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 02:01 PM

If the only drawback to a voluntary subscription is that people might wheel it out in an argument - "I'm putting my money where my mouth is, are you?" - I think there should be ways of avoiding that kind of thing.

There should be a clear understanding, part of a formal agreement even, that anybody's status as a Mudcat subscriber or donor was a totally confidential matter, which they would promise not to disclose on the net; and there'd be a similar taboo against outing anybody else as being a paid-up subscribe, or as not being a paid-up subscriber.

Alright thing might occasionally slip - but you couldn't have anybody coming on as "I am a loyal paid up Mudcatter and you are not" when in so doing they were breaking a sacred and solemn promise they had made. "Broken the seal of the Mudcat!!"

If Max could manage on voluntary subscription pledges, and do without the banners, I'd be happier, though I know it's dependent on having a reliable and predictable trickle of dosh.

One reason is that I'd hate to feel that we couldn't be freely critical about advertisers - I know that not too far back someone was posting about Green Linnet being a bit less than satisfactory in the way it treats it's artists.(The other one mentioned, Hobgoblin I'd welcome - but that doesn't alter the principle.)

Or the reverse. Fears about some over the top stuff about an album maybe having something to do with keeping advertisers happy.

And with the Mudcat it wouldn't need Max deciding to do either of these things, it'd be enthusiastic Catters tryin to be helpful.

I never look at the auction myself, because I assume it's all American, and the cost and hassle of shipping anything would make it impractical. Maybe if there was some way of breaking it down geographically it could help. (Maybe there is - as I said, I never look at it because I've assumed that this doesn't exist.) Similar kinds of hassles, as Jon said, get in the way of making a standing order or whatever from overseas.

There are ways and means I imagine. Maybe someone who understands that stuff could let us know, and maybe there should be a teal thread about Money for the Mudcat.

One alternative to banners on the forum page from advertisers could be separate ads pages for music related companies, like record compnaies and instrument dealers etc, but with a Mudcat made banner linking to them on the forum page. This would be open to the same objection about fears of partiality, but it'd be less obtrusive, Max could control what it looked like - and it would be possible to get more advertisers included. And those advertising could include Mudcatters who have things to advertise that don't really belong in the auction, like instrument makers, music teachers etc.

Or how about a lottery or betting syndicate with an enforceable agreement to pay 50% of the winnings to the Mudcat when we hit it lucky? Those of us who buy lottery tickets could cycle outr money through the Mudcat, and still feel we were in with a chance. Just needs someone to draw up a legal framework through which we could do it (maybe separately in different countries, since the legal structure varies.)

Anyway, whatever happens the Mudcat will survive. I just hope it doesn't require robbing banks or getting into bed with capitalists. Especially the latter.


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: GUEST,Kernow Jon
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 02:15 PM

Alex
Keep on Joking, when we get news like this we need something to smile at.
I probably am whatever you said but I could never spell it!
As we say in Cornwall " Mudcat bys vycken"
KJ


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 02:54 PM

I hope that means what I think it means...


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: GUEST,kernow Jon
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 03:50 PM

Rest assured translates as:
Mudcat for Ever
KJ


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: Hollowfox
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 04:44 PM

One of the prime virtues of the 'Cat, besides the subject content, is its openness. Anybody can come into the forum, either as a guest or as a member, and put their foot into the stew at no cost. Let's be honest folks, at best we all have good thoughts and we all intend to send a bit to help with expenses, but it doesn't happen as often as it should. Subscriptions would lead to the in/out group problem. Having the place funded by a few well-heeled 'Catters and/or fanatics could bring the same result. I think that advertising in some form will probably be the fairest, least labor-intensive way to go. There is a problem with arts council funding; politics and censorship have been known to raise the prospect of pulled grants, and then we'd be in the same predicament as now, but we'd have gotten used to the funding.


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Subject: For crying out loud, lighten up!
From: mousethief
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 05:07 PM

Because, Jon, I don't take myself as seriously as some do. Yes, this is a serious subject. Will my being a little silly on this thread cause Mudcat to collapse? I doubt it very, very much. Will it make somebody smile? That is what I was hoping. Given the odds of each, I figured it was worth it.

It's a pretty conventional form of joke, actually. "No, you weren't wrong, you were correct, for these reasons. Blah blah blah (enumeration of reasons). Or maybe you're just a dummy." Gentle teasing, but neither vicious nor particularly unusual. It's not like I was breaking really new ground here in the history of humor. It's a folk joke, if you will.

Lighten up, people. This isn't the Florida Supreme Court, this is a public forum for discussion of music and related topics. Humor and laughter are very important for folk music and blues. And Mudcat.

But what do I know? I'm one of those twisted people who already knows how to spell "nincompoop."

Alex
O..O
=o=


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 05:08 PM

Banner ads are unsightly but as many have said they're also easy to block out. Max, do what ever you have to do and know that we all love you for hanging in with us for this long! Vive la Cat!


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: Song Dog
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 05:24 PM

Put simply "folks", It's time to put-up or shut-up. I know what i'm going to do. I just need an address, where to send it. How many will join me? If enough of us send in a few bucks each and every month, the ads won't be necessary. If they are necessary, that's ok by me too. What ever it takes to keep the MudCat afloat. Don't worry about arguments over "who contributes and who don't" I can't bring it up, because I won't know who does and who don't, and I don't care. I can only be responsible for myself and what I do. Let's just try to make it "regular" so Max can count on it more or less. Hey, I'm living on SS myself. Sooo, if I can manage $5 or $10 a month. I'm thinking maybe some of you can also. If not, I'll still love ya. Lets try our best. I love MudCat. Some one give me an address.


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 05:27 PM

Sorry Mousetheif, I guess that I am just a little up tight with this one and I do accept that I failed to see your humour which is a form I am not familiar with. Perhaps it is just me just being ignorant or perhaps it is a touch of US humour that is not often used in the UK (which one could argue is me being ignorant too...)

Anyway, back to the topic: any ideas on any other (most likely in addition to banner ads) sources of funding?

Jon


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 05:35 PM

If those Florida judges could manage to get through that case without cracking up with laughter and cracking terrible jokes, they must be even weirder than judges are supposed to be. Surely that's why they sit in private?

But that is strictly irrelevant thread drift. Other threads is where it belongs, if anywhere. (I say that not because I don't think jokes belong in here, but because I don't want blood and guts all over this thread.)

If Max does go down the advertising route though, I seriously suggest that the link to the Mudcat Trade Fair might have advantages over the banners on the page option. Aesthetic and financial advantages.

And since banners are so easy to block out I think that intelligent advertisers (and only intelligent advertisers would be interested in the Mudcat) might prefer the idea as well.

With banners, I suspect most people would block them out as a matter of routine. With a Trade Fair, I suspect most people would visit it every now and again. At folk festivals I never read the adverts in the programme. I always visit the Trade and Craft Fair.


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: Banjer
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 05:38 PM

Whadda ya mean, "This isn't the Florida Supreme Court"? We Floridians owe a lot to those guys, because now when we claim to be in "State of Confusion" folks don't know if we mean ourselves or where we live. You should have it so good.

AS for the banner ads, I would like to first explore a different solution. But if it comes right down to it, if it will save the 'Cat, lets do the banners.


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: okthen
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 06:19 PM

Whatever is the lesser of an infinite number of evils,

I am guilty of inertia, I promise to do something about this

cheers

bill


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 06:53 PM

Song Dog and anyone else who is wondering:

please click on the

Mudcat Logo of the fish jumping out of the banjo
where it says "Help Support the Mudcat"


and follow that to about the middle of the page. There is a link for a secure servier to make donations and/or an addy to mail checks to, BUT this has never worked in the past. I am not saying that this time will be no different, but Max needs something that is absolutely reliable and so far, we haven't been. Just the facts, ma'ams and sirs.:-)

kat


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: Don Firth
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 07:18 PM

Mudcat and Digital Tradition are resources of inestimable value to me. I could easily lapse into silly fantasies about what I could have done if I'd had resources like this when I first became interested in folk music. Information gleaned from the forum, plus links that people have put on have led me to realms heretofore unknown. I am eternally grateful.

Unfortunately, I am also eternally fundless.

Considering my more or less daily surfing habits, I hit Mudcat almost every time I go on line. Then, at least a couple times a week, I'll browse Elderly Instruments, Lark in the Morning, Folk-Legacy, and a few other on-line dealers, surf over to the classic guitar world and check in to see what's happening, and hit a few other places. I often check references to things Mudcatters have put on line (e.g., I had never heard of Seagull guitars until I ran across the Mudcat forum).

What this is leading to is -- banner ads are usually an irritant to be ignored. But -- the right kind of banner adds could actually be a service. Sumpin' to think about, maybe. . . .

Don Firth


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: Alice
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 07:54 PM

Banner ads. But we can't ignore them, we have to click on them for Mudcat to get anything from the advertiser. I also suggest that all who can, do as much gift shopping from the links that already exist on the Mudcat (CDNow, Barnes& Noble, etc.). Every purchase made through Mudcat also brings in a little bit of support. HELP Support The Mudcat - click here

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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 08:33 PM

Good points, Alice and thanks for the link.

Max, I would suggest a PermThread which is entitled "How You Can Help Support the Mudcat" with all of the information in it that you have on the support page. I am talking about the written info, i.e. addresses, secure server link, etc. and a link to the support page Alice referred to, where those ad-links could stay. I cannot count the number of times people have asked me where the addys and phone numbers are.

When I went to Hober Radio today, I noticed they had an upfront, top of the page, BUT not in huge letters suggestion which said something to the effect of "Please make an online donation today to keep Hober Radio on the air." Wouldn't hurt at all to have that in a PermaThread or AS a Permathread, imo.

thanks,

kat


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: MMario
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 08:39 PM

heck - if max can make money for the cat with a banner ad, I could force myself to go click each of them once a day or so. what the heck; talk about painless giving. I don't have to READ the bloody things.


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: Jeri
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 08:48 PM

Like Don Firth said, maybe Max could find some sponsors (and banner ads) from companies we'd LIKE to visit. (Elderly Instruments, 12th Fret, sellers of folk stuff, festivals, folk organizations, Ben & Jerry's, any place that sells chocolate...)


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 08:49 PM

I do that what Mmario suggests every day with The HungerSite amd its four btenants (the Rainforest, Kid's Aids, Childrens' Survival and Breast Cancer Sites). Got it down to a fine art, doesn't take more than 30 seconds to do them all, unless you stop and read the ads, which I don't as a rule.


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: Alice
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 09:17 PM

Kat, there already is a permanent link to that page - the logo fish in the banjo that says, Support the Mudcat.


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: RichM
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 11:01 PM

Go for the banner ads, Max. It's the most consistent way to make money. I don't mind clicking the banners to keep Mudcat going, and to make things easier for you.

Rich


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 11:37 PM

I know, Alice, I had mentioned it earlier, but a lot of people don't realise it is a link, that is why I suggested a PermaThread. From what people have told me, they see the fish jumping out a banjo as a cute logo, but never realise they can click on it for more info.

Just a thought, anyway. Thanks,

kat


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 23 Nov 00 - 08:05 AM

Killing the Threads makes 450 posts and this only 55?

Come on folks, even if there are no new ideas,or people unable to offer financial support. let's see some more support for Max who I believe works his balls off for this place in financial and time terms.

Jon


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: catspaw49
Date: 23 Nov 00 - 09:02 AM

I agree Jon........We need to let Max know. Banner ads and whatever is needed, but we all love this place and the friendships we've made here.

On a lighter note, maybe we ought to look into THIS IDEA.

Jon, if we used the likes of you and I, I'm afraid it wouldn't sell well though!!!!

Keep the thoughts and ideas coming here and let's try to support Max and ourselves for the future.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: Jeri
Date: 23 Nov 00 - 09:47 AM

I would like to hear some other people's ideas, too. Individual donations aren't what Max needs, I think. Fund drives are fine now and then, but what Max needs is guaranteed income. Otherwise, every month will become a fund drive, with some folks feeling satisfied because of the amount they can give, and others feeling guilty because they don't have much.

I'd like to see people try to come up with more ideas. (Of course, I'd also like to have won the lottery or find out a rich aunt has died and left me a couple mil.)

I don't want us to end up welcoming new members and saying "Welcome to Mudcat, a fine, friendly, folky forum where social status doesn't matter - only our love of music. Now please click the fish and give us some money."

So far Max's funding has mostly come from Onstage, which is also in trouble. On the radio, he joked about how much money he would need to run Mudcat from his apartment if Onstage went belly up. It's not funny that the situation has become this scary without us knowing there was a problem.

Max, if you need any long-distance part-time elves for OnStage with only moderate HTML skills, I volunteer. I'm afraid I won't make the board meetings, though.

Ideas - how Max can have a guaranteed monthly income:
Individuals giving him money. People must have money and must be willing to give it.
Grants. Somebody has to write them. I would guess Max puts in a 16 hour day at work already,
Businesses giving him money.
--Maybe hit up folkie organiziations and business. Won't be a lot of money, because even the organizations don't have it.
--Bigger business. Maybe they'll donate money for a link. Maybe they'll want banner ads.
Do something that will generate montyly income - this is where the possibilities lie, but is also where there's work involved.
--Sell something. Requires donated (at least partially) items.
--Provide a service. There are things we could volunteer for. We have an amazing pool of talent here. We can write web pages, create databases, paint, draw, sculpt, pot, cook, transcribe music, play, sing, make jewelery, write...etc.

I don't know how to make those things translate to money. The auction hasn't been too good for this - people sell the things they create rather than their skills.

Ideas?


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: jets
Date: 23 Nov 00 - 10:05 AM

I think the adds would be fine as long as they were music related.


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: Mooh
Date: 23 Nov 00 - 10:19 AM

It's hard to write this without sounding more self-righteous than usual.

I have no moral objection to banner ads here. I don't even think we have to worry about getting the right advertisers, they'll be there if we want them. By that I mean, no Nike types. Social conscience in place we'll get music merchants, environmental stuff and so on...this is not my area of expertise obviously...But if one looks at all the advertisers in the music press (Dirty Linen to Acoustic Guitar, there's scores of them), some must be interested in a billboard on the outskirts of Mudcatville.

I've watched most of the televised Toronto Maple Leaf games this year and I can't think of a single advertiser on the boards. It must be subliminal. Though I might have noticed an ad for snow shovels. And that's my point, we'll notice relevant ads and dismiss ads for things which don't interest us.

Many of us are living pretty close to the poverty line these days and are still willing to send money. I personally would like to see some of the big business we support through purchases return the favour.

Peace. Mooh.


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Nov 00 - 02:06 PM

Do they have the technology yet for a button you could push and make a donation there and then when you felt like it?

I remember reading about something like that for small transactions on the net - you'd set up a credit account somewhere, and that's where the money would come from.

I'm sure that quite a lot of us would do that, if it was that simple and you could do it on impulse.

The same technology if it exists, could also be used for entering into a draw. After all, pretty well every folk club that-ever-there-was has that as part of the evening.


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: dick greenhaus
Date: 23 Nov 00 - 04:42 PM

I'm going to yell:

BANNER ADS DON'T DO A DAMN THING UNLESS PEOPLE BUY THE PRODUCTS THAT ARE ADVERTISED. FROM WHAT I'VE SEEN, MUDCATTERS DON'T RESPOND TO THE ADS THAT ARE IN PLACE.

I, personally have found (and I suspect that Sandy at Folk-Legacy concurs)that Mudcatters are eager to suggest outside sources for recordings, although they're no cheaper and certainly don't do nearly as much for Mudcat.

THere are enough regular Mudcatters so that an annual income of a buck or so from each of them would support Mudcat and Digitrad just fine: sadly, there's no way at present to handle small transactions electronically. A cyber-turnstile would be great, but it doesn't exist.


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: George Seto - af221@chebucto.ns.ca
Date: 23 Nov 00 - 05:12 PM

1 - I can put up with the banner ads, if that is what it will take.

2 - Mousethief, it may be a common sort of joke where you come from, but where I was brought up, calling someone a nincompoop, is likely to get a set of knuckles in the face.

3 - I wouldn't mind sending in $10 a month. However, many of us are not in the states. To send a sum like that to the states, it requires either a bank or postal money order or certified cheque. This will add about another $5.00 to the cost, besides exchange. In Canadian sums, $10USx1.7+$5.00Cdn = $22.00 each month. Would quarterly be acceptable to reduce that $5.00 fixed cost?


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: Peter K (Fionn)
Date: 23 Nov 00 - 05:15 PM

Was that someone complaining that things shouldn't have got to this state without us knowing? I didn't think we had rights in this place, and as long as Max is running the show, that suits me fine. Anyway, he sounds pretty relaxed.

I do hope you turn Onstage around Max, but I'd say go for the banner ads on Mudcat anyway - no reason why you shouldn't be getting that income to offset costs.

Some of us will even buy some of the stuff advertised - not as many of us ignore advertising as we like to think. Ads or no ads, I'll keep calling by, if only for the penetrating, in-depth critiques we get of even Mousethief's more tongue-in-cheek efforts.


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: GUEST,Liam's Brother
Date: 23 Nov 00 - 05:24 PM

I fully agree with Dick.

I receive a great deal of entertainment and knowledge from Mudcat/DT. I'm quite happy to write a check as a donation if that's what's needed. I would expect that others who spend a lot of time here would do the same. I think a reasonable donation benchmark should be established with individuals giving more or less as their means allow and their interest dictates.

Those who've not worked in sales and marketing should understand that supposedly "for profit" companies don't just take out banner ads with no expectations. Increasingly, they have means of monitoring the ad response and they make hard decisions about whether their $$$ are well spent. I don't like banner ads. I certainly wouldn't stop coming here because of them. They will be, however, only a solution for Max if they generate a stream of business for the advertizer.

All the best,
Dan


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: Lyrical Lady
Date: 23 Nov 00 - 05:34 PM

Jon ... don't be crankin about the number of posting this thread has gotten!!... I have a FUNDRAISING IDEA thread going as we speak here and I've gotten a stinkin 7 posts! The thing that scares people off is the thought of having to raise funds ... guess that's why I'm the only Mom at the school running the Hot lunch program! ...LL


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: Long Firm Freddie
Date: 23 Nov 00 - 06:00 PM

I see Max has a click through thingy for Amazon.com - how about one for Amazon.co.uk for those of us this side of the pond? (No dear, I'm not simply spending all our hard earned money on more CDs, I'm helping to preserve something rather special...)

LFF


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: hesperis
Date: 23 Nov 00 - 06:24 PM

NO BANNER ADS PLEASE!!!

*-Phew!-*

Now that that's out of the way, there are a lot of good options that have been suggested here already. I did like the idea of a Trade Fair page, with links to musical sites. People could use that, especially if it is linked through a permathread.

(Banner ads scattered all over would definitely be somewhat repulsive. Besides, they only pay a little bit for clicks, a bit more for click-throughs, and a bit more for actual purchases through the link. It's not as much as you'd think. And sometimes you can't ignore them. I've gotten headaches from the flicker of certain ads in my "free" email. Please keep Mudcat really free, not "free".)

Also, we could try the voluntary subscription and see how it works. Certain people would be able to give, and certain others wouldn't. You still have to fundraise constantly if you do it at all, because some people drop out, and other people might not know there is a need for them to give.

Performers who use DT songs could pass around a jar after the specific song, and send that money to the Mudcat.

The idea of making songbooks of specific categories from the DT looks like a good one. "Bawdy Songs" "Badman Ballads" ... This could be good.

You could ask certain of your friends and family (you know, the ones who always give you a piece of (more) pretty junk that you don't need instead of a REAL present that you would use,) to give a donation in your name to the Mudcat instead of a present on holidays and birthdays.

My $0.02,
~*sirepseh*~


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Nov 00 - 07:09 PM

Talk and great ideas, are cheap. This is a place where many members have overcome all kinds of adversities in life, and have shared their trials and tribulations, and healing msgs, warm thoughts, and general goodwill and caring to their fellow members. Positive thoughts and good will are not going to solve the financial problems of the main benefactor of this forum, without who's past generosity none of you would be here or have many of the relationships you hold dear.

How many of you on this forum, who wish to see it remain, are going out this weekend? Perhaps for a nice dinner or a movie with your significant other, or shopping for Christmas presents, or hitting a local pub with the boys? What do you figure a night out this weekend will cost you? 10, 20, 30, 50 or more dollars? Forgo it, and instead get out your checkbooks now, and send THAT money into Max. Not much of a sacrifice at all, when you look at the sacrifices he's made on all of our behalves.


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: GUEST,CarolC (at her parent's house in Wheaton)
Date: 23 Nov 00 - 09:06 PM

I can't speak for anyone else. I can only tell you what I experience myself.

I live on a very small disability income. I don't even have enough money to own a car. The mudcat is important to me. I send money to Max when I pay my bills each month. It's not much, but I try to send in five or ten dollars every month. I'm not saying this so be self-riteous. I'm saying it so people with very little money can know that it can be done.

I used to belong to a food co-op. For a long time the co-op was supported almost entirely by the efforts of a small handful of people. When that small handful of people burned out, the co-op folded. It can happen, folks. If we want something to happen, we have to make sure we each do our part. Some of us can't do as much as others, but we should all try to do something.

The people in the U.K. could agree on one person that they could send a check or money to, and a little extra to cover the cost of the money order or cashiers check, or whatever. That person could take care of converting all of the donations they recieve into a form that could be sent overseas, and they could send that to Max.

Or not...


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Nov 00 - 09:15 PM

You can get to Amazon.uk via the Amazon.com page that the logo gets you to. Whether this still brings any advantage to Mudcat I don't know - when I asked noone was able to tell, but I go via Mudcat, anytime I want to go to Amazon.co.uk, in the hope it does.

A more direct link would be a good idea, for UK and other places. Is a logo link let you click on countries practical? I'd have thought it's the sort of free program that is lying around somewhere to be picked up and inserted.

But given the evident geographical distribution of Mudcatters, the real support at present has to come primarily from the Americans, I suppose, where giving voluntary money is more sraightforward.

Nobody's mentioned covenants and so forth yet I think. I don't know how that works in the States, or what they are called. What's needed is for an adequate number of people to pledge a small annual sum in a way that guarantees the money, rather than as and when they feel like it, to give a bit of stability for the Cat. (As and when is great for extras.) (But as I said there has to be a confidentiality guarantee if this isn't to be damaging. "Let not your left hand know what your right hand does", as the New Testament puts it.

Getting officially registered as a not for profit organisation: From what people say that must be a lot more difficult in the States than I had assumed. In fact I'd always assumed Mudcat had that status already. I've been involved with organisations getting charitable status in England, and it's never been particulaly difficult. I'd assumed that in the States it'd be even less complicated, what with constitutional rights and all that kind of stuff.

If the Mudcat was based in England I'd be suggesting various organisations, national or regional or local, who could supply a do-it-yourself guide to getting charitable status which they'd send by return of post, (or quicker in these days of faxes and email) - though getting it all signed sealed and delivered might take a bit longer. And there wouldn't be any signifucant cost involved.

That's not particularly useful. But is it really that difficult in the States? Would it have significant advantages? Would it in any way limit the Mudcat? Isn't there anyone out there is USAland who can rattle out reliable answers to those questions at the drop of a hat and for free?


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: katlaughing
Date: 23 Nov 00 - 09:51 PM

One more time:

It is my understanding that NO MATTER where you live, if you have a credit card you can make an online donation of any amount going to the link which Alice provided.

Am I wrong in this understanding?

Also, someone asked about a program which lets you set up an account and pay out when you wnat to. PayPal does that. I've not yet hooked into on my eBay account, but it sounds quite easy to do. Please take a look at it by clicking here.

Also, banking online works. My belief system says I should give/tithe to where I receive my most help. I have set up our bank acct. to send a monthly payment to the Mudcat Cafe. It is automatic, easy to do, and painless. There ARE enough of us who could do this, even as CarolC has done; remember the Bible story about the "widow's mite", well it adds up people! I cannot count the times we've talked about it and obviously not done it, at least not enough. It is up to us to help out Max and make sure the Mudcat does continue.

Also Dick is right AND, Dick, I'd love to see PermaLinks to Camsco and Folk Legacy on the main threads page. IF you are going to buy a CD and it is at all possible (ask, they will tell you) BUY it from Dick at Camsco or Sandy at Folk Legacy. Dick IS the DigiTrad and he and Sandy, along with Susan and Caroline are some of the biggest supporters of and contributors to the Mudcat. They deserve our business much more than any banner advertisers which may come on here.

Please, just DO IT NOW and do it consistently!

Thanks,

kat


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Nov 00 - 10:28 PM

That PayPal link of kat's seem to indicate that the techniology is available that would make it possible to give instant small donations (or buy raffle tickets). But the procedure's a bit complicated as it stands. And I hate giving my creditcard number out over the net.

What I want is a purse full of change which I can spend without giving any theoretical hacker access to my account. I believe that is on its way.

I've just been looking at the Support the Mudcat link - I've never scrolled down it before, just used it to get to Amazon. Essentially it's got the makings of that Mudcat Trade Fair I suggested.

At present, for geographical reasons, it hasn't got the links to people I would be likely to buy things from, like Hobgoblin Music or The Music Room or Pub Prop - but I think it could be expanded in a way that would be useful to us all, as well as a fund raiser. And it needs to be signposted more clearly - to make it clear that this is a source to useful stuff we might want for ourselves, and help the Mudcat in the process.

Are there maybe any helpful elves out there who could be able and ready to help work this up if Max and Co ask them to?

We don't have Thanksgiving as such here - but it strikes me that Thangsgiving is a very appropriate time to be thinking about ways of helping the Mudcat be more secure and less of a strain on the key people who keep it in existence.


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: Alice
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 12:08 AM

I was going to suggest using Pay Pal, but kat beat me to it. I have a Pay Pal button on my website for people who want to use some of my art. It is easy to set up a PayPal account and a button link.

Alice


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 12:15 AM

What do you think of it, Alice? I've been wondering about it. Our newspaper had a big article on it and its founders recently that was very interesting and I've noticed a lot of people have it available on eBay now. Seems like a good way to go. Thanks,

kat


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: Alice
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 12:26 AM

Well, in the few months since I added the PayPal button, I've only had one person actually contact me to pay for use of an illustration. It is easy for anyone to copy a jpeg and never contact me. That particular honest person eventually said they would just send me a check, since the PayPal site was having problems that day and they kept having trouble trying to use it. I discovered PayPal by reading ebay's website about how to transfer money over the internet, and PayPal was recommended. It seems to have worked well for alot of people. Basically, you can transfer any amount you want to from your credit card and/or from a bank account. It may simplify members sending a few dollars on a regular basis to Mudcat.


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: Song Dog
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 12:40 AM

Come on "folkies". I can hardly believe what I'm reading here. Sure, it's easy to find a reason NOT to give. That's mostly what I'm hearing here. We all seem to be looking for a way for someone else to pay the way. Ads and such. Thats fine for later,cause that TAKES time. Right now all you have to do is visit your bank and arrange an automatic payment to MudCat, or arrange the same with your credit card company. Arent most of you now paying your ISP with an automatic credit card account? Just do the same for MudCat. Stop worrying about hackers and such if the MudCat says it's server is secure, have a little faith and tell them to take a little each month. Now, come on folks, if we will try as hard to find a way to do this as we are trying to find a way not to, we WILL succeed. **** MudCat Now and Forever.****


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: Song Dog
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 12:47 AM

Kat/Katlaughing; I'm with YOU. Let's dot this **** NOW****


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: dwditty
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 07:00 AM

Just noticed this thread. Bottom line is we need to do lots of things to insure a steady stream of funds to support what we love. Banner ads would be fine - but they will only work if Mudcatters make them profitable for the advertisers. My opinion is that this proposition would be iffy at best. After a few months, advertisers who saw no revenue would discontinue their ads. Hope I am wrong. If banner ads are the way to go, and I have no problem with them, there are plenty of companies who would love to target a demographic like that found here. (BTW, Max, Stan Jay at Mandolin Bros. is a Penn State alum, so he make take an even keener interest in your efforts.) It would still require us to make it worth their while for advertisers to place ads here.

I like the idea of having a facility to hold benefit concerts with an admission on a periodic basis. Credit card payment, pay pal, or whatever, available at the door. We have some real live recording artists on this site who may be willing to "donate" their time on an occasional but regular basis.

Try this. Estimate your average monthly hours on the mudcat. In my case, the few cents per hour to get to a reasonable monthly donation sure seems like a bargain to me. It would be very helpful to have a facility to transfer funds automatically on the xxth of every month - thereby creating a steady stream. I understand the reservation about creating a situation where there are some that give and others that do not. If one were to throw out the fact that they are "putting up," they would demonstarte such small behavior that they could easily be ignored. I have spent the last 3 years on the finance committe at our church. There are tons of folks who "could" give more but don't. They are still welcomed.

In the meantime, it sounds like Max could use some help right now. If you are in a position to, I would suggest going directly to the "Help Support" icon above and send MAx a donation. If you choose not to, I have no problem with that either. In any event, please keep thinking about how we are going to make sure we keep Mudcat alive. As weird as it may be to feel this way about a little piece of cyberspace, I love the mudcat - which is, of course, all of you.

dw


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: R!
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 09:33 PM

Like McGrath, I'd never clicked the Support Mudcat pic. I've read through this thread and agree that banner ads seem to be the solution. In the meantime, I detect a sense of urgency so I will be mailing a cheque tomorrow. I've only been here a short time but I'd hate to see the Mudcat disappear.

Stay well, Rowana


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: annamill
Date: 29 Nov 00 - 02:34 PM

I just read an article that said that online buying is 25% down from what it was last year. Not good for Onstage, not good for Mudcat. The reason stated is that people are getting bored surfing the web. I don't know.

I use Paypal for my e-bay purchases and I'm very happy with it. It's easy and fast. Only you have to give them your bank account number, etc. You could open a bank account to be used only by Paypal though and make monthly deposits. It doesn't cost anything to belong to Paypal either. Maybe they charge the receiver or the website. I don't know that either. I like it though, not a bad setup.

I wouldn't mind banners. Maybe they'll have something I would like to buy.

Love, annamill


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: NightWing
Date: 29 Nov 00 - 05:20 PM

I don't mind banner ads either ... because I ignore them too (rather pointedly, in fact). And, as several people pointed out, that makes them worthless to the web site. So, Max, my check is on the way.

In fact, since I use PayMyBills.com, I have set up a monthly automatic check for the next 12 months. I know that PayMyBills *can* send e-payment, but I do not know how a "payee" can set that up. Perhaps they'll send Max the info along with the check.

Like PayPal (which I've never used), you have to give your bank account info to them. They do direct withdrawals from your checking account when you tell them to and for the amount you tell them to. They maintain records of your bill paying and you can download everything to your computer in several different formats (MS Excel and Quicken, for two).

I use PayMyBills for all my bills (except for my car insurance, strangely; just haven't got them set up with it yet) and haven't written a check for a bill (see above) in nearly a year.

It's worth a try. *shrug*

BB,
NightWing

P.S. If all the people who say they are going to send donations actually do, I might suggest that he could raise all the money he needs by announcing every six months or so that he's going to have to start putting up banner ads to pay for the 'Cat. ;>


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: Ferrara
Date: 30 Nov 00 - 01:08 PM

Thanks, guys. We are trying to send a kid to college on an income that's about $6,000 a year less than our outgo, so have been stingy about contributing to Mudcat. But it sure means a lot to us. If we can afford an ISP, we can afford to contribute to Mudcat.


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: bbelle
Date: 30 Nov 00 - 01:45 PM

Banner ads ... I ignore them. I do, however, purchase ALL my guitar gear online through marsmusic.com, musiciansfriend.com, elderly.com, fqms.com (First Quality Music Supplies), or FGM.com (Flatpick Guitar Magazine Mercantile.com). It would be nice to have a direct link.

Jenny


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: Ferrara
Date: 30 Nov 00 - 01:59 PM

If we could get banner ads for the companies we deal with anyway, it could help the Mudcat.

If we remember to get to those companies via the Mudcat every single time.

I'm no help. I just don't buy on line. Though I may give in and order some zither strings from Lark in the Morning.


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: Max
Date: 30 Nov 00 - 02:04 PM

Hey, more good news. Our ability to accept credit cards will shortly be suspended because Visa and Mastercard changed the industry standard for internet security reasons. The software we have been using for years in now illegal to use. But not to worry, because the upgrade is only $712.25 and all I have to do is cancel 2 merchant accounts and open another because the new software only works with 2 banks/processors in the whole wide world. Not to mention that I have no idea how this new software works or whether it works with our Web Servers or Cold Fusion or if I am going to have to buy new. Plus I will have to learn how to integrate the code that makes the mudcat commerce work with the new software....

So to sum up, we're talking about at very least $712.25, the 3 hours I've already blown, about 8 hours of research to come, several hours of programming, being on hold for 2 hours to cancel 2 merchant accounts, another hour opening a 3rd merchant account, a call to my bank to set up the direct deposit from the new merchant account... oh, and 10 minutes complaining in this message I just wrote.


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: MMario
Date: 30 Nov 00 - 02:09 PM

sorry max! good luck. hope the "fix" is easy and does indeed work with your programs.


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Subject: RE: Help: BANNER ADS FOR MUDCAT???$$$$$$???
From: WyoWoman
Date: 30 Nov 00 - 10:19 PM

Banner ads don't make me twitch. Thinking of Max losing sleep because he's losing money does.

Jameson's Irish Whisky and Guinness Stout would be two naturals for the likes of us ... and, of course, music-related stuff like, uh, uhn ...

ww


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