Help: Calling all shanty experts!

Subject: Calling all shanty experts!
From: Kim C
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 12:01 PM

Greetings Y'all! Mister and I do a few shanties for our 19th century presentations but I am wondering how appropriate they are for 18th century use. Thanks!

Subject: RE: Help: Calling all shanty experts!
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 12:09 PM

Kim: I should think they would be appropriate provided they date from that period. I'm not familiar with 18th century music as I mainly concentrate on Civil WAr era music but i would think they sang them in the 18th century. Sails had to be raised and lowered. Chantey Ranger and Dave (The Ancient Mariner) should be able to help. Happy Thanksgiving and the Best to you and Mister. Neil AKA Irish Sergeant.

Subject: RE: Help: Calling all shanty experts!
From: GUEST,chanteyranger
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 12:27 PM

There is a very good recording of 18th Century chanteys released by folkways for Seaport '76, called Colonial and Revolutionary War Chanteys and Sea Songs (or something close to that). The singers are John Millar and Cliff Haslam. Folkways recordings are now released through the Smithsonian Institution.

-chanteyranger

Subject: RE: Help: Calling all shanty experts!
From: GUEST,chanteyranger
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 12:29 PM

One of the chanteys on that album, Sam's Gone Away, is in the digitrad.

Subject: RE: Help: Calling all shanty experts!
From: Kim C
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 12:55 PM

I think that recording is out of print - an unscientific search of the usual suspects did not reveal anything. Does anyone know where I can get it?

chanteyranger, what are some of the other songs on it? There's a good chance I have recordings of them somewhere in my collection. Thanks!!

KFC

Subject: RE: Help: Calling all shanty experts!
From: Abby Sale
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 03:01 PM

Whew! - I'd tread slowly here, depending how much of a stickler you reckon to be. I'm midling stickeley, myself, but some of these definitions are generally very loose.

OK. I'd seek careful documentation on the dates. While sails were, of course, hauled then & long before, packets and clippers is what gave rise to the chanteys. There was rarely much need for them before 1800. Or after, say, 1910. Only a bare handful of chanteys predate 1800

The cited record "Seaport 76 Colonial & Rev. Sea Songs" is from Folkways and, like all of their production is still available from smithsonian/Folkways. Camsco is trying to work out a deal to market them, I believe, but I don't think they have yet. You need to go to them direct. It is a very good record and you can't go wrong anyway - but there's the other thing...

I think nearly all the songs are very late 18th century (so will "qualify" for you there) I think only two are actual chanteys. The rest are forebitters (songs sailors sang for pleasure, not work songs) or else "sea songs" that deal with some sea matter ('my loves gone to be a sailor' - like stuff) but were maybe never actualy sung at sea or by sailors. I'll have to go look out its notes if "Sam's Gone Away" actually dates in chantey form from that long ago - just wondering.

There are endless books on sea songs and the chantey Bible, of course, is Hugill's Shanties of the Seven Seas. There are also a number of very good web sites with many chantey texts but for documentation, I'd definately head over to The Contemplator

Good luck. I'd like to hear your stuff some day.

Subject: RE: Help: Calling all shanty experts!
From: Kim C
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 03:29 PM

I went to the Smithsonian Folkways site and did not see that recording, nor did I see it on amazon.com, nor did a search of the singers' names yield any results.

Late 18th century is fine for the site we are working with - it's 1790. :)

Subject: RE: Help: Calling all shanty experts!
From: Roger in Sheffield
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 03:41 PM

Robin Garside is the only person I know that does shanties
Roger

Subject: RE: Help: Calling all shanty experts!
From: GUEST,Erik
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 03:50 PM

Kim: Excuse my grammar; I am Dutch and therefore not an expert on your language. But I am part of a Dutch group that sings shanty's and seasongs and therefore I know a little bit about it. Maybe you should tell us which shanty's you are planning to use, and what your presentation is about. That would make it easy to give comments and to help you. There might be a mixup on the centuries in this discussion: The 19th century is from 1800 untill 1900. The 18th century was from 1700 till 1800. Shanty's are worksongs from the sailingships. There are a few very old ones, but most shantys are indeed from the period 1850-1910. The problem is that age is hard to determine because words have changed over the times and there is no 'original' version. Every shantyman sang it different and adapted it as nessecary. And there are also a lot of songs of later origin which have never been sung at sailingships at all. So if you gave us a bit more information we might be able to help you.

Subject: RE: Help: Calling all shanty experts!
From: wildlone
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 04:06 PM

Erik,My Mother sings a dutch song she learnt from some Free Dutch sailors in WW2 it goes {in english}
Everywhere, everywhere,
Where the girls are
There is a girl for me.
Do you know of it and do you have the words or know where I might find them
BTW she sings it in Dutch.
thanks dave

Subject: RE: Help: Calling all shanty experts!
From: Kim C
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 04:50 PM

Hi Erik (whose English is better than some native speakers, I must say) - my husband and I do living history, mostly American Civil War era (1860s) but we are doing some 19th century (1770s-1790s) and while several of the songs we do predate the Civil War anyway, when we have to leave out all the Civil War songs, it makes the set a little thin, so I'm just trying to get a feel for what we can throw in. I know a lot of shanties are appropriate for 1860s but didn't know if they would be okay for pre-1800.

I have the Stan Hugill bible at home so I'll take a look there.

Cheers --------- Kim

Subject: RE: Help: Calling all shanty experts!
From: Abby Sale
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 05:57 PM

Kim C: S/F can be "interesting' to navigate. I often start directly with the search page Clicky. You'll find it at the title or 'Haslem' but the catalog has the name wrong so you have to start at "Colonial." The entry reads Colonial and Revolutionary War Sea Songs and Shanties (1975) F-5275 (Cassette, $10.95; CD, $19.95)

Hmmm. Going back I see they're screwing around with the Folkways database again. None of the links I tried from the main Smithsonian page for it worked. Still, I did find the above. I think they're trying to push you into buying the Smithsonian (not S/F) re-released compilation stuff from the Folkways base. You're better off phoning them. Boy is this confused - they left the listing out of most places but it does come back in an artist search from the new front page Clicky. Ordering info & 800 number at Clicky. Well, it's still a good record.

Looking at the notes for "Sam's Gone Away" offer that it "may be an exception" to the rule and not only may be 18th century but actually a Royal Navy origin! (US & UK Chanteys are nearly 100% merchant - to 'undiciplined' for the navy) He does cite the West Indian source for his version. Probably from Abrahams' Tobago material. His tune is very similar to the Tobago singing.

Subject: RE: Help: Calling all shanty experts!
From: Abby Sale
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 06:00 PM

Erik: Yes, I know that the Dutch are taking over the chantey business - and doing a pretty good job of it, too. I caught (never mind the spelling) Kat-En-Seel at Mystic Seaport & was suitably impressed and have hears good clips from other groups.

Subject: RE: Help: Calling all shanty experts!
From: GUEST,chanteyranger
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 07:35 PM

The chanteys in Hugill would not be appropriate for an 18th Century program, since they are a collection of chanteys as we know them from their heyday - 1830's-1860's, and what survived into the early 20th Century. Sam's Gone Away is an example of a hauling chantey, used for raising sail, and is, as Abby said, a rare pre-19th Century chantey, rarer for its naval origins. Yes -the majority of the songs on the recording are forebitter and shore songs, which you can usually tell from a lack of a chorus, or too lengthy choruses.

Subject: RE: Help: Calling all shanty experts!
From: Dave (the ancient mariner)
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 08:11 PM

KimC. The following songs would suit you, but as stated by others Shanties were really 19th century work songs. Most sea songs prior to that were for entertainment more than anything and any religious or bawdy song of the day would do. However these meet your criteria. Yours, Aye. Dave
Admiral Benbow (1702)
Ye Mariners All (unknown but probably 1690's) John Dory (1687)
Sir Francis Drake (1612)
Spanish Ladies (unknown but probably 1690's)
To All You Ladies Now At Land (1664-5)
We Be Three Poor Mariners (1609)

Subject: RE: Help: Calling all shanty experts!
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 08:43 PM

The thing as I understand is that in the 19th century crews got smaller and the ships bigger, and shanties came in as a way of coping with the workload.

But noone really knows, because people weren't collecting that kind of thing back in the 18th century, and shanties wouldn't have got prionted as broadsides etc.

I'd suspect that rowing shanties might be more likely to have survived unchanged, because the rowing technology for ship's boats didn't really change much. It still hasn't, I imagine. Here's a link to some fellas who might be able to advise

"The 19th century is from 1800 until 1900. The 18th century was from 1700 till 1800." Strictly speaking Erik, the 19th century was 1801 until 1900, and the 18th century 1701 until 1800.

Like the Twentieth Century is 1901 till 31st December 2000, in spite of what they try to tell you.(And if you check back you'll find that everyone was agreed on 31st December 1900 that they were celebrating the end of the 19th century and the birth of the Twentieth. Celebrating! Poor devils...)

Subject: RE: Help: Calling all shanty experts!
From: GUEST,Rev
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 09:06 PM

I think you could count "Haul on the Bowline" as a pre-19th century chantey. Hugill calls it "possibly the most ancient of the shanties." His reasoning is that the bowline was a line of great importance during the Middle Ages, but became less central once fore and aft sails were developed. Plus it's just a great song!

I think if you're doing naval living history, that chanteys weren't really used too much in the Navy. Probably just a "sing out" or a "cry" was all they used.

Where do you guys play? I'd like to hear you sometime.

Subject: RE: Help: Calling all shanty experts!
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 10:05 PM

Rev - Is that you, the Santa Barbara enthnomusicologist?

Subject: RE: Help: Calling all shanty experts!
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 10:51 PM

Erik -

Do you sing with the Frisian group "Lierelet"? I saw the group at Mystic this year. I have a good photo of the band on the Mystic Whaler, rehearsing. If that's your band, I'll be glad to send you the picture. If you join Mudcat, you can leave your address on a personal message which means only the people you send messages to will see them. You would be very welcome here! Same with you, Rev. Membership is free - just go to the membership link on the mudcat homepage.

-chanteyranger

Subject: RE: Help: Calling all shanty experts!
From: DonMeixner
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 11:04 PM

Kim,

Are you doing Foc'sile, Forecastle, Forbiters, Forebitters, (All them words mean the same thing, just covering the ground for traditionalists among us.) or are you doing working shantys? In any case let me reccomend "Across The Western Ocean" by John Roberts and Tony Barrand. Songs mostly from the days of the clippers.

Don

Subject: RE: Help: Calling all shanty experts!
From: Barry Finn
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 11:06 PM

There are a few that Hugill says might be that old but he can't know for sure, Haul On the Bowline, A-Rovin, Whiskey Johnny, Blood Red Roses. Whose gonna prove you right or wrong. Barry

Subject: RE: Help: Calling all shanty experts!
From: Wotcha
Date: 22 Nov 00 - 11:45 PM

Although not strictly chanteys, try the following:
"Warlike Seamen" (a fine Copper Family song which traces its origins to the 1600s).
"Captain Ward"
"The Press Gang"
"As We were A-Sailing"
And how can we forget "Heart of Oak" (Burl Ives' verses optional ... for this 1759 classic)?
Not sure, but the following might qualify as 1790s songs too (buy Mystic Seaport's "Link of Chain":
"Paul Jones"
"Captain Kidd."
You might as well just buy Topic Records "Round Cape Horn" for the notes on some of these songs ...
Cheers,
Brian

Subject: RE: Help: Calling all shanty experts!
From: Peter Kasin
Date: 23 Nov 00 - 12:50 AM

What, Barry, no "Guest" prefix? A bloody big welcome to memberland!

-chanteyranger

Subject: RE: Help: Calling all shanty experts!
From: GUEST,Rev
Date: 23 Nov 00 - 01:52 AM

Hey Chanteyranger,

Yes, it is I, the Santa Barbarian ethnomusicofolkloristicologist. I'll go to the member link right now and get myself officially registered. Hi to all the chantey singers in the SF Bay Area! Rev

Subject: RE: Help: Calling all shanty experts!
From: Gervase
Date: 23 Nov 00 - 06:57 AM

Shanties were frowned upon on Royal Navy ships, where a fiddler or fifer was used to provide the rhythm for work.

Subject: RE: Help: Calling all shanty experts!
From: Ship'scat
Date: 23 Nov 00 - 09:39 AM

One of the rare exceptions to Royal Navy shanty frowning was the ancient (pre-1800) Spanish Ladies which it turns of was used as a homeward bound shanty in both the military and merchant services. Perhaps the Naval dispensation stemmed from the inclusion of useful piloting instructions in the verses.

Another 18th century song with strong nautical (and possibly) shanty ties is the sailor's alphabet - or the good folks at Oxford.

KC

Subject: RE: Help: Calling all shanty experts!
From: GUEST,Marc
Date: 23 Nov 00 - 10:07 AM

No one has mentioned Maids of Amsterdam. I thought Stan always said that was one of the few work songs to survive from the 18th century.

As for Barrys welcome, I've joined 4 times now ,and after a few weeks I'm a guest. Why is this?

Marc Bernier

Subject: RE: Help: Calling all shanty experts!
From: MMario
Date: 23 Nov 00 - 11:18 AM

marc - cookies can get lost - see the GAQ thread for how to reset your cookie

Subject: RE: Help: Calling all shanty experts!
From: GUEST,Erik
Date: 23 Nov 00 - 03:23 PM

Hello everybody,

A few answers:

Wildlone: Yes this is a familiar song in the Netherlands, especially with party's or football (not a shanty at all). It goes: "Overal, overal, waar de meisjes zijn, waar de meisjes zijn, Overal, overal, waar de meisjes zijn, daar is het bal." Your translation is good, but I don't know where it originates from. If you want to know I can try to find it out for you.

Kim C.: Thanks for the info. I don't think I can be of any help with your specific question. Hugill is a good source although a bit English(U.K.)-minded. I get the feeling you are looking for specific American material. Maybe you should try Mystic Seaport or American singers like Geoff Kaufman, Bob Webb or Jon Pfaff.

McGrath of Harlow: You are right of course!

Chantyranger/Abby Sale: No, unfortunately I am not a part of "Liereliet" or "Kat in't Seil". Although both formations are based on the same singers they are very good. Last weekend Nanne and Ankie have performed at our own shantyfestival and again I was impressed. Personally I am one of the leadsingers in a shantychoir "De Compagniezangers" from Medemblik in The Netherlands. We enjoy singing shanty's and seasongs on all kinds of maritime occasions. Some of our best friends are from other countries; Shanty Jack, Ken Stephens, Johnny Collins and Greame Knights from the U.K., Bob Webb from Maine, and Jean Paul Ferrec from Brittany in France. They were all here in Medemblik for our festival last week. I will take your advice and try to join the Mudcat.

Greetings, Erik.

Subject: RE: Help: Calling all shanty experts!
From: Shantysinger
Date: 23 Nov 00 - 04:05 PM

Chantyranger: I followed your advise and signed in on "Mudcat" under the name of "Shantysinger". This method of communication is very unfamiliar to me, but I hope to learn a lot from everybody that is interested in shanty's and seasongs.

Hope to hear from you, Erik.

Subject: RE: Help: Calling all shanty experts!
From: Shantysinger
Date: 23 Nov 00 - 04:25 PM

McGrath of Harlow: Thanks for the link, I missed it earlier. Alan and Dave (the singers from 'Bitter End' are great guys and they also have one of the few websites with a lot of links to shanty-related pages (in Europe that is). Unfortunately our group is not on their links-page yet, but that's only a matter of time. Europe is always a little bit behind in these things.

Hopefully we'll catch up,

Greetings Erik.

Subject: RE: Help: Calling all shanty experts!
From: Barry Finn
Date: 23 Nov 00 - 10:32 PM

Hi Marc, nice to see you're on board here. Probably should say weclome at this point & as one of Mystic Seaport's shantymen say that your contributions will be a great asset to all. As to the guest question go to the help section or ask one of the more knowledgable folks here (I couldn't sign up for Computers for Dummies 101).
Hi Chanteyranger, thanks for the weclome, after close to 4 yrs here & the last one being a guest it's a nice to not be a guest anymore, I owe Joe Offer for making a house call.
There seems to be a thread drift here. Kim C, you had asked about shanties to begin with, is this still the case with such a short & shaky supply of them or are you casting your net to take in sea songs in general? Barry

Subject: RE: Help: Calling all shanty experts!
From: GUEST,nomadman
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 12:56 PM

Here is the track list from "Colonial & Revolutionary War Sea Songs & Chanteys" - that's the actual title - by Cliff Haslam & John Millar, taken from the notes to the vinyl edition (FH 5275).

Boston Harbour (c. 1765)
Sam's Gone Away (18th C.)
Johnny Todd (18th C.)
Pleasant & Delightful (1756)
My Son John (18th C.)
Polly on the Shore (18th C.)
Anti-Gallican Privateer (1781)
Fathom the Bowl(18th C.)
The Pressgang (18th C.)
All the Things Were Quite Silent (18th C.)
Here Comes Captain John Paul Jones (1779)
Fare Thee Well My Dearest Nancy (18th C.)
Adieu Sweet Lovely Nancy (18th C.)
Pretty Nancy of Yarmouth (18th C.)
Yankee Privateer (c. 1780)
An American Frigate (1779)
Stately American (1778)
Yankee Man of War (1778)
Sir Peter Parker (1776)

Of all these selections, only two - Boston Harbor and Sam's Gone Away - are identified as chanteys. The rest are , presumably forebitters or simply songs about the war and the sea.

For what it's worth, there's an address and telephone number of Seaport '76, the organization that had a hand in producing this recording. These are 25-year-old entries, so I would not be surprised if they are not still valid.
Seaport '76
60 Church Street
Newport, RI 02840
[phone]

Cliff Haslam is still active in performing here in Connecticut - mostly around Essex, near where he lives. I don't have contact info right at hand, but it shouldn't be too hard to dig up, if needed.

Regards,
John

Subject: RE: Help: Calling all shanty experts!
From: wildlone
Date: 24 Nov 00 - 03:53 PM

Eric, Thank you I would love a copy of the words, Also any more Dutch folk song sites as the re-enactment group I belong to,[the alliance] has a Dutch group and it would be nice to join in with the singing.
BTW because of the style of singing and the words sounding germanic certain british members think that the Dutch songs are neo nazi and get upset.
more fool them.
dave

Subject: RE: Help: Calling all shanty experts!
From: Kim C
Date: 27 Nov 00 - 04:46 PM

Thanks everyone! Great information from all of you. I should have been more specific ---- I am a nut for all kinds of sea songs, whether they be work songs or no. We have been doing Adieu Sweet Lovely Nancy for a LONG time and I never, ever tire of singing it.

Now for a little shameless self-promotion - we'll be appearing at Mansker's Station in Goodlettsville, TN, this Saturday, all day long, in 18th century dress. Sunday night we will be at the Carter House in Franklin, TN, where it will be Christmas, 1862. Saturday, December 16 we're at Belle Meade Plantation in Nashville, for a Battle of Nashville commemoration, and Sunday, December 17, at Travellers Rest in Nashville, for their Christmas festivities. (butnoneofyalllivenearmetocomeseeus :( )

Subject: RE: Help: Calling all shanty experts!
From: mousethief
Date: 27 Nov 00 - 04:53 PM

KimC said " I should have been more specific ---- I am a nut for all kinds of sea songs, whether they be work songs or no"

Ah. Then you should have been LESS specific, no?

(ducking and running)
Alex

Subject: RE: Help: Calling all shanty experts!
From: MMario
Date: 27 Nov 00 - 05:03 PM

heck, nashvilles only about 18 hours away....

Subject: RE: Help: Calling all shanty experts!
From: Kim C
Date: 27 Nov 00 - 05:36 PM

well, it still worked, didn't it?!!? ;)

Come on down, MMario. Nashville's lovely this time of year.