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BS: To Santa or not to Santa?
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: GUEST,John Leeder Date: 29 Nov 00 - 05:13 PM Christmas is a vast and complex celebration. It's possible to get a great deal out of it even without participating in the overtly Christian component or the overtly commercial component. There are lots of very powerful myths connected with Christmas, and, as myths, they have power even if you don't believe they're literally true. As an non-commercial agnostic, I still find lots to enjoy at Christmas just by suspending disbelief for a bit. |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: Kim C Date: 29 Nov 00 - 03:32 PM splendid! I am going to go look for it. :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: GUEST,Fibula Mattock Date: 29 Nov 00 - 05:46 AM Kim C - "The Box of Delights" is a fantastic (in both senses of the word) children's book by John Masefield set at Christmas time, about a young boy called Kay Harker who meets a mysterious Punch and Judy man. He finds himself drawn into a wonderful and magical mystery when the Punch and Judy man gives Kay the Box of Delights which can conjure up all mystical things and whisk people back in time. It's a lovely and Chritsmassy book incorporating all kinds of myth and legend. Well worth a read. It's up there with "The Children of Green Knowe" and "the Wind in the Willows" as books I really loved as a child because they remind me of Christmas (I was probably given them for Christmas, which would explain the association...). |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: MiriamKilmer Date: 28 Nov 00 - 09:23 PM MMario wrote: "He was dressed all in fur, from his head to his foot, and his clothes were all tarnished with ashes and soot" - - Can't think of any animals I know with red fur... --- Foxes are red. Okay, not THAT red... One can dye fur, though. --- Naemanson wrote: > We can only raise our kids as we see fit and there is no one qualified to judge us on that score. And kids are pretty resilient. They can bounce back from anything we do "wrong". --- I've been bouncing for a great many years because of the things my parents did wrong. I can't say that I have bounced back. However, what they did wrong had nothing to do with Santa Claus, so I'll save it for another discussion if any. My family just had an email discussion on the subject of what to tell your kids about Santa Claus, and nearly came to blows. We made up, though. Merry Christmas. I still believe. By the way, if you're looking for a heart-warming Christmas story, the live-action "The Grinch" isn't it.
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: mousethief Date: 28 Nov 00 - 06:44 PM It's really just enlightened self-defense, Annamill. I knew a kid who was raised in a very religious home, went to Christian schools K-12, and then when he got to college and discovered that there were people in the world who didn't believe the way his family/church/school did, it totally freaked him out. Last I knew he was a rabid nihilist/existentialist atheist, and, alas, not very happy. I think being more open about the whole thing makes the kids not only more open minded about others (whatever they ultimately decide to believe for themselves), but also less likely to reject their birth-religion (so to speak) for stupid reasons. (Stupid reasons might be, to shock the parents, boredom, etc. The only good reason to change religions, IMHO, is because you think the new one is TRUER than the one you're leaving. Of course this is open to disagreement too; others might have a different set of "good" and "bad" reasons for changing one's religion!) I knew a man who was a Moslem, and moved to the USA, and his son (perhaps to shock dad, perhaps not) told him he had decided to become a Christian. The dad was (to my mind) a smart man. He said, "you may do so, but if you are going to become a Christian, you are going to become a REAL Christian, not somebody who pays his religion lip-service and only goes to church on Easter and Christmas." So maybe, by being a little more open and honest about the existence of other religions and worldviews, we're opening the door for the kids to bolt as soon as they get the chance. I don't know. But it seems better than the "brainwashing" method, at least in the areas of honesty and respect. Which is my bugaboo with Santa, of course, that honesty thing.
"What a shabby state we're in." Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: annamill Date: 28 Nov 00 - 06:31 PM I'm not a believer, but I never forced that concept on my kids. I let them know how I felt, but made it clear that this was something they must decide for themselves. I never approched the idea of religion with contempt when it was being discussed and my children know I respect other's beliefs. As a result, I have one strong believer and one non-believer. (never mind which) I do get upset, though, when religious people do not give their children the same option. MT, I appreciate your open-mindedness with your children. Thank you for letting them think for themselves and showing them the alternatives. Love, annamill |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: Naemanson Date: 28 Nov 00 - 03:53 PM Oh no, Alex, I would never try to second guess a parent in this kind of question. We can only raise our kids as we see fit and there is no one qualified to judge us on that score. And kids are pretty resilient. They can bounce back from anything we do "wrong". |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: mousethief Date: 28 Nov 00 - 03:05 PM Fair enough. I was raised in an overtly non-religious home, and am now an Eastern Orthodox Christian. I was responding to what I perceived (maybe I'm just touchy, as Terry K so rudely suggests) as a disparagement of my handling of religion with my kids, and wanted to make it clear that we are not "brainwashing" them to think the whole world thinks the way we do. Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: Naemanson Date: 28 Nov 00 - 02:22 PM You're right MT, it looks like Rick got us started on God. But he used a lower case spelling. What are you trying to say, Rick? *bg* And my comments were meant to show that there are different ways to approach God and religion with our kids. In our family we were taught that such things existed in other peoples' lives and were left to find our own way. Of my four siblings one is now a Catholic. The rest are still undeclared. |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: mousethief Date: 28 Nov 00 - 01:25 PM Naemanson, I'm not sure what your comments about the differences in opinions about God are meant to show. They certainly don't come as news to me. But the question was asked how I deal with it when the kids ask if there's a God, vis-a-vis my opinions about what to tell them about Santa. I tell them Santa is not real because I don't belive Santa is real. I tell them God is real because I do believe God is real. I guess I fail to see what your comments bring to this distinction. Sure there are people who don't believe in God, and when their children ask if there's a God, I figure they'll tell them No. That's their right as parents, and may it never be that the government takes away our right to teach our children our own beliefs (again -- it did happen in Alaska immediately after the purchase, when native children were torn away from their parents and brought up in boarding schools and force-fed Presbyterianism, which was NOT the faith of their fathers/mothers). We talk a lot in our family about people of differing beliefs, and what different people think about God, and my wife and I try to present as well as we can what people in other religions/belief systems/etc. believe about God. We encourage the kids when they want to visit their friends' churches, and keep books in the house about different religions so they can read about them if they are interested. So it's not like we're teaching the kids there is no other way to believe, and no other "slant" on the God thing than our own. I don't mean to drag this thread off into a different direction, to hijack my own thread so to speak, but then again I wasn't the one who brought up God. I am trying to respond to what others have said.
Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: Whistle Stop Date: 28 Nov 00 - 01:04 PM Thanks, John; I thought you articulated it just fine. -- Whistle Stop (lurking) |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: GUEST,John Leeder Date: 28 Nov 00 - 12:54 PM I wrote that before I saw Whistle stop's post -- he said the same thing, only more articulately... |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: GUEST,John Leeder Date: 28 Nov 00 - 12:51 PM We always treated Santa Claus as a sort of game played between the adults and the children. When the children became old enough to suspect that it *was* a game, they went along with it for a while because it was fun (and also because they wanted to keep getting presents...). At a certain point they would be co-opted to play for the adult side ("Don't spoil it for your little brother."), which made them feel grown-up about it. Even the youngest has younger cousins (and possibly soon nieces or nephews), so it has been possible to bring him in on the adult side. I feel confident that my kids will keep the game going when they have children of their own. |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: Kim C Date: 28 Nov 00 - 12:49 PM What's The Box of Delights? I've never heard of that. |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: GUEST,Fibula Mattock Date: 28 Nov 00 - 12:47 PM I like Christmas. I like the tradition of it all. And I was quite happily believing in Father Christmas until I was about 9 years old and my primary school teacher informed me that he didn't exist. I remember crying a bit about it to my mum but it confirmed my sneaking suspicions. Of course, I had to pretend for the sake of my wee sister, and so at the age of 24 I am going to go home safe in the knowledge that Father Christmas will leave a present out for me on Christmas morning, even though my 22 year old non-Santa-believing sister will be across the ocean in Boston. Somehow our family just kept doing all the Christmas traditions, although my daddy stopped writing the shakily-printed letters from Father Christmas, and chewing on Rudolph's carrots to make them look gnawed. Cynical atheist I may be, but I'll still light the candle in the window to guide the Christchild home, I'll still listen to carols on Christmas Eve, I'll still waken my parents on Christmas morning for our present opening ceremony (not just tradition - I have no patience), and I'll still sit beside the fire and read "The Box of Delights" for about the 17th time. Bliss! |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: Kim C Date: 28 Nov 00 - 11:49 AM Yeah. It is fun to pretend to believe. :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: Whistle Stop Date: 27 Nov 00 - 01:05 PM First, thanks for this thread, Alex. While there was a little nastiness along the way, I think most of the discussion has been positive and enlightening. Like others who have posted, I think that when kids ask you a direct question, they deserve a direct answer. My youngest (of three) is still a "believer," but is fast approaching the time when he'll start to question the myth. He'll let me know when he's ready. Until he's ready, I won't tell him, but I also won't go to any elaborate measures to prop up the myth. When it's time, this pleasant little story will die. I don't think I'd be doing my child any favors by trying to keep the myth alive once its time has come. With my two oldest, I tried to cushion the blow by bringing them in on the game, appealing to their better natures not to spoil things for their younger siblings and friends. They responded well; they recognized that they had crossed a threshold of sorts, and now had a responsibility to maintain the magic for the younger ones. A few conspiratorial winks were exchanged, and the magic went on, for all of us. Now as far as God is concerned, I consider that to be dependent upon one's definition. When my kids ask me that one, I talk about the various definitions of God, and explain that each of us gets to make up his own mind about that. As long as the vocabulary is age-appropriate, the kids seem to understand this concept just fine -- they're always smarter than we expect them to be. |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: annamill Date: 27 Nov 00 - 12:53 PM Gee, this was not a problem for me at all, but, then, I had always told my children the truth when asked. When they were little we pretended there was a Santa and many of their gifts were from Santa. This, incidently, annoyed me because I always thought that credit should be given where credit was due, and it wasn't Santa that had been out there shopping and wrapping those gifts, but he got all the credit. Well, we marked some from Mom and Dad. Well, anyway, when my little ones came to me with the "question", I guess they were about 6 yrs. old at the time. (eight years apart, so this was done at two different times) I took them aside in a whisper and told them that he wasn't a real person, but we pretended he was real because it was so much fun for everyone to pretend to believe. Now, this brought them into an exclusive club of the adults and they both maintained the facade for quite awhile and helped to perpetuate the fantasy for those who were younger then themselves. They still get gifts marked 'From Santa". For us, it was the perfect solution. Love, annamill |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: MMario Date: 27 Nov 00 - 12:52 PM I find it fascinating that Clement Moore's "Saint Nicholas" - (which is how he refers to him) is described. He's not the nifty neat clean sanatized "Santa" - He is dressed (as I qouted above) ALL in fur, from head to foot, much as there are illustrations of Father Christmas who I have frequently seen portrayed in fur. Not just fur trim, fur clothing.AND he's covered with soot. Logical, of course, given that he spends all night climbing up and down chimneys. But how many Santa's do you see with scuffmarks on their boots, let alone soot stains? on the other hand "a right jolly old elf" and "his eyes how they twinkled, his dimples how merry" makes him sound more like Shirley Temple!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: Kim C Date: 27 Nov 00 - 12:45 PM Thanks MMario. I couldn't remember if it was the poem itself, or the illustrations that usually accompany it! So what we are actually dealing with here is the Old-World Mountain Man Santy Claus.... I have a couple of books of Victorian scrap (you know, to cut out and paste on things!) and those Santys are wearing just about every color you can imagine... red, green, blue, brown, white... I don't think any of them are wearing fur except for trimmings. |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: MMario Date: 27 Nov 00 - 12:08 PM "He was dressed all in fur, from his head to his foot, and his clothes were all tarnished with ashes and soot" - - Can't think of any animals I know with red fur... |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: Kim C Date: 27 Nov 00 - 12:00 PM Oh, Naemanson, I am so sorry about the dogs. I have two that I love very, very much and one is now getting old nad having trouble getting up and down the stairs. It breaks my heart but I know she can't stay forever. I think you did the very best thing you could. Mrs. Duck - I think Clement Moore's Santa wore a red suit too. But shame on me, I don't remember off the top of my head. Now, y'all be sweet. There's room for everyone, whether they love Santy or not. Merry Christmas. |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: Homeless Date: 27 Nov 00 - 09:59 AM Naemanson - I salute you. |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: Terry K Date: 25 Nov 00 - 06:22 PM I'm a little concerned that Mousethief may be badly needing some attention. He suggests that he has been subject to abuse in this thread and accuses we participants of being "nasty and mean-spirited". I'm blowed if I can find either nastiness, abuse, or evidence of meanness of spirit. What I have found is a reasonably light, though serious, sensitive and mainly humorous discussion on the original point and some of its digressions - in other words, a typical Mudcat thread. Is there something I'm missing? Terry |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: catspaw49 Date: 25 Nov 00 - 02:16 PM Sorry, that's not an answer, but its a wonderful story and everything you did I would believe of myself....or at least want to. Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: catspaw49 Date: 25 Nov 00 - 02:13 PM Ya' done good ......... Spaw |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: Naemanson Date: 25 Nov 00 - 02:05 PM And this is our Thanksgiving tragedy. You must understand the farm is heaven for kids and dogs. The buildings stand up on a hill well back from the road and are surrounded by overgrown fields. The farm hasn't been a producing farm since before my family bought it in 1967. About a half mile back over open fields and second growth woods is Hannigan Pond. At home for the holiday were my oldest sister and her two kids and their dog. Also there were my youngest sister and her daughter and their dog. Living at the farm are my parents and their three cats and three dogs. So we had 9 people, three cats and five dogs. On Thursday morning the dogs went out as usual. Emma, a small black and white lab and shepherd mix, and Annie, a lovely Irish Setter, played together in the yard. After a while, as kids prepared to go out for a walk they were missed. Search parties fanned out. It was my nephew that found them. They had made their way down to the pond and broke through the ice about 30 feet out from the bank. He and my oldest sister manhandled a canoe 200 hundred yards through the woods to the spot closest and broke through ice to rescue them. Annie was already gone and Emma had just given up the struggle and was no longer swimming. They rushed her back to the farm house and began the revival. My sister changed into some dry clothes and she and I went back for Annie. We knew it was too late but we had to try. My other sister was distraught and my niece was inconsolable. Annie was indeed gone. We got her out of the water but she was dead. By the time we reached shore my nephew was back with my daughter and they helped us haul her up through the woods to the trucks in the clearing. It was a sad day and this is the point of my story. What do you tell a 6 year old kid who has just lost her dog? Fortunately the ground was not yet frozen. We dug a nice deep grave for her in a corner of the garden. Little Addie and her grandfather made a headstone that said "Beloved Dog, Annie" on it. Addie also drew a heart with a picture of a dog. Then my daughter and I went down to the clearing with a blanket and brought Annie home. My daughter combed her hair and made her look as pretty as she could and then we led Addie over to say goodbye to Annie. She was very solemn and petted her. Then we covered Annie with the blanket and lowered her gently to her rest. My sister spoke of what a good dog Annie was and how much she would be missed. We told Addie that Annie was resting now and would become part of the farm. I told her that Annie would continue to live in her heart and in her mind as long as she remembered what a good dog Annie was and how much she had loved her. I pointed to the location of the grave and how pretty it would be in the springtime. She has all the resiliency of a 6 year old. That evening she was alternatively full of fun and then sad and withdrawn. Next morning she crawled into my lap and solemnly announced that she wanted her dog. What would you have done? |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: Naemanson Date: 25 Nov 00 - 01:12 PM Well I survived the holiday and that is not an understatement. I have a long story to tell and I want to answer specific points in the discussion to date so I will break this post into two segments. This one will answer points and the other will tell a rather tragic story. It involves a death in the family (a pet) and what you tell the 6 year old girl who has just lost her dog.
Homeless asked: Actually my technique with these important questions is to turn it back on the child. I don't know any more than s/he does so we explore the question together. We look at the literature, movies, and music and try to figure out what Santa is and does. We all recognize the guy in the stores as a "helper" but make no guesses about the reality of the old gent. My kids have never asked about either the Easter bunny or the tooth fairy.
mousethief Date: 22-Nov-00 - 04:50 PM We perpetuate the myth for our own gratification. It keeps us believing that the kids are not actually growing up and away from us.
mousethief Date: 22-Nov-00 - 05:14 PM "Kids learn to distinguish between fiction and nonfiction at a very early age. "real" and "pretend" are an important part of the 1st grade vocabulary…" This is one of the grand adventures of youth. My 6 year old niece is having some trouble with this. She has invested a lot of worry in the fact that Darth Vader is a dad but is also evil. And we have invested a lot of effort in trying to make her see the difference between that fiction and the fact of her own father and the rest of the fathers in the family. Spaw, your tale of your father was great. I'd say mine is a little like him. And so am I in a way. Once upon a time, when they had learned the purple cow rhyme, I served purple milk at supper. They still remember that. Guest mentioned hearing sleigh bells. That was part of my own youth. I remember waking on Christmas in the early morning hearing bells. It is a valued part of my personal history. Amergin, your picture of Mousethief was not funny… well OK, it was a little funny but not fair. He is only standing up for what he believes and participating in a serious discussion… oh never mind, he can defend himself and it was funny too. Sorry Alex. |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: BigDaddy Date: 25 Nov 00 - 01:00 PM Then there's the Christmas Nazi approach of one of my neighbors. She tells her kids if they don't believe in Santa or say they don't, there won't be any presents for them. |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: Mrs.Duck Date: 25 Nov 00 - 11:14 AM Let us not forget the little man is red is a product of Coca Colas imagination. Also Father Christmas green or otherwise is far older than St Nicholas or Christianity!!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: kendall Date: 25 Nov 00 - 11:12 AM While we are on myths, where does the Great Pumpkin fit in? Not that it's important, but, the practice of gift giving predates St. Nicholas. In fact, it goes back to the Roman Empire as part of their seasonal celebrations. Caitrin, your mum was right, thats what I told my kids when they asked. The thing is, the truth doesn't have to be devastating. It's the spirit of giving that counts here, not some overweight legend. |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: Geoff the Duck Date: 25 Nov 00 - 09:28 AM Well!!! I don't understand what this thread is about! I KNOW Santa is real!!! On the other hand, nobody has ever managed to provide me with conclusive proof that America really exists. I've seen the films on television and it all looks "made-up" to me! Looking forward to wishing you a Merry Christmas in a few weeks time Geoff the Duck |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: bbc Date: 24 Nov 00 - 11:41 PM My experience & practice are similar to kat's & a couple of others. I have a couple of very fond memories from my childhood at Christmastime when Santa was very real to me--once, Christmas Eve, we saw him in our neighborhood & he called me & my sister by name. Another time, I know I heard the reindeer on the roof of our house. I recounted these stories to my children with delight. When, through the years, questions were asked, I would respond w/ those stories & the explanation of Santa being the symbol of the joy of giving. By tradition in our household, stocking gifts come from Santa & the wrapped gifts from friends & family. Of my two children, one shares my delight in believing & one is a skeptic. So be it. There is too little wonder in the world. I am a Christian & that is the heart of our Christmas celebration, but Santa is a lovely part of our holiday, too. bbc P.S.--Yes, we believe in the Tooth Fairy & the Easter Bunny, too. My kids are currently 15 & 18. :) |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: mousethief Date: 24 Nov 00 - 11:39 PM Boy, say you don't believe in other people's fantasies and look at the abuse you collect. Forgive me for being honest, with my children, and with you. Obviously what I need is to follow the party line and lie when I don't. Some of you need to step back and look at yourselves and ask if it really makes you happy to say nasty things about others. Maybe Praise was onto something with her "black hole of negativity" comment. Hmmmm. If believing in Santa makes you nasty and mean-spirited, leave me out. Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: Gypsy Date: 24 Nov 00 - 09:54 PM Not to believe in Santa! How couldja? He just morph's into a different being as we age, but is still around. Just look in your world, and you will see him. (Gypsy who's mother said if you don't believe, it is to your detriment) |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: Ely Date: 24 Nov 00 - 08:52 PM I figured out the whole thing when I was four, so I'm not sure it even matters. Of course, the girl across the street from us believed fully until she was at least eight, to the point that she would burst into tears if you even looked skeptical (how much of this was her own doing and how much of it was her parents', I don't know). I guess what I mean is my parents let us believe for as long as we did, but didn't keep insisting on it beyond that and let us think of Santa as a concept rather than a being. We still get presents "from Santa" every year, but his handwriting varies a lot (it always either looks just like Dad's or just like Mom's). |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: Amergin Date: 24 Nov 00 - 07:32 PM Hey, look, everybody!! I found a picture of Alex/Mousethief.... |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: Liz the Squeak Date: 24 Nov 00 - 07:16 PM Am I really muddling the issue to say that Santa Claus AKA St Nicholas is the patron saint of prostitutes, small boys and pawnbrokers....... amongst other things...... Phoebe Bratling still believes in Father Christmas, even though he looks like Rosie's dad and didn't bring her the £200 worth of toys she wanted last year, despiter her asking him 3 times. She's going to be even more confused this year, there are 3 Santas at one fair tomorrow!! Santa Claus is the one in red and Father Christmas (or Christemas) is the one in green with the holly wreath on his head..... one is the spirit of the season and the other is the spirit of the Season. Go figure.... LTS |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: SingsIrish Songs Date: 23 Nov 00 - 10:41 PM This is certainly a judgement call for each parent to make... As I see it, I love the concept of Santa, and even though I know the man in the red suit with the sleigh and 8 reindeer isn't true, there was St. Nicholas who helped the idea begin....there are some truths that the fiction is based on. But that's not what my real point is. Even though I know "Santa" isn't real, I would still say "I believe" if asked...especially by children. Several years ago I was working with a group of 4th graders and found a group discussing whether Santa existed or not...some still believed, others had "outgrown" the concept. I told them I still believe in Santa, and told them stories from when I was a girl--things Santa wrote in his reply letters after eating the cookies and feeding his reindeer the vegetables...Even those who no longer believed took delight in the tales. And still I am not getting to my real point. LOL I would say that belief in Santa is similar to a child having an imaginary friend. Not only do they both foster a child's imagination, it is something that is "needed" at that point in time. I certainly wouldn't tell a child that his (universal term in my book) imaginary friend doesn't exist... I am delighting in carrying on the tradition of letters to and from Santa with my son as my Dad did with my sister and me. If it helps foster a child's imagination, then I believe. It could be difficult for a child who does believe to hear a friend insist Santa doesn't exist... But as I said, it is a judgement call each parent needs to make. Cheers everyone. Mary |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: katlaughing Date: 23 Nov 00 - 09:08 PM Just a note about telling children the "truth". Often when they ask for the truth, it does not mean they want a huge, adult discussion on the subject. Depending on their age and maturity, they can only handle so much. This was pointed out in a parents' class I attended once per week when my son was in preschool. We hosted different guests who would come in and talk with us. One child psychiatrist pointed this out using "where do babies come from" as an example. While he did not advocate telling them the stork brings them, he also did not advocate going overboard with information, again, depending on their age and maturity. kat
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: Terry K Date: 23 Nov 00 - 07:49 PM Whatever the historical associations, the spirit of Santa certainly lives on, as McGrath and others have more than adequately stated. As for God and his cronies, the only thing I know is that I was born without a belief in a god (or anything else for that matter) so it was only the brainwashing of society that fed me the myth of God and all the usual guilt trips that go with the deal, without the slightest shred of evidence (and please don't give me the usual "you must have faith, my son"). It has only been in adult life that I have been able to shake of the dreadful effects of that ongoing brainwashing and see things more clearly. So there's certainly more evidence for the existence, then and now, of Santa than there is of God. (Note also that belief in Santa does not give rise to holy wars etc, only good spirits around Xmas time). And to the original poster, I really believe that Mousethief's self-righteous attitude about "lying" is to the detriment of his children's childhood. Is there no place for make-believe? - except in the case of God, of course, where you can seemingly justify any old lies. What on earth are we coming to. End of rant. Terry |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: sophocleese Date: 23 Nov 00 - 07:49 PM What did she say about sex Caitrin? Do you still believe in that too? |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: Caitrin Date: 23 Nov 00 - 07:27 PM Hi, folks! It's been a while, but I'm back from the dead. Or from the theater, rather. Anyway, as to Santa... When I was six years old, I asked my mother for "The Truth" about Santa Claus and sex, all in one afternoon. I got a fairly straight explanation of both. Mum's take on Santa was "There's not an actual guy in a red suit, but the spirit and magic of Christmas are very real." We continued to play the game, though...all the presents from my grandfather still come tagged "From Santa". I don't think my years of believing in the red-suited elf hurt me at all. I tend to agree that folklore and mythology and magic are an important part of childhood and culture, and it'd be a shame to abandon all that in favor of cold hard fact. However, I also think it's important to give the truth when it's asked for. |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: Morticia Date: 23 Nov 00 - 07:20 PM Dear Santa, although I am a mudcatter and am very fond of all the people above, I wish to disassociate myself entirely from the above thread.I will leave the sherry and the mince pie in the usual place and if you could see your way clear to getting me that Porsche we discussed last year (and the year before that), I will be very grateful yours Morticia PS....I have been very good all year.......mostly. |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: Ebbie Date: 23 Nov 00 - 06:35 PM When my daughter was 7 she came to me with a very serious look on her face. Mama, she said, I know there is no Santa and I know about the Easter Bunny- but there is a tooth fairy, isn't there? I didn't know how to handle it but I had never lied directly to her so after a moment, I said, Well, what do you think? Mournfully, she said, Oh, No... Ebbie |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: Lyrical Lady Date: 23 Nov 00 - 05:17 PM And the carrots ....that I leave on the roof ...who eats those?...WHO WHO WHO? Santa comes to visit our little island by boat (a courtesy of the Bellingham J Cee's) every year and has done so for 40 years that I know of. Those volunteer's are going to be really POed when they find out that their good will is a lie! ... Not to mention the children who wouldn't get a gift otherwise. Ya know, kids aren't dumb ... they can figure things out on their own with out parents putting in their two cents about every little thing. My best friend told her little girl that Santa wasn't real and she told my little girl. They are both teens now and when they exchange gifts to each other they both sign the tags 'Love Santa'. So lighten up Mousethief .... look upon the Santa issue the same way you did your X-wife, a little bit of humour, meant to be laughed at and not taken seriously! (Happy Holiday HA HA thread). ....LL (who still believes in magic) |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: GUEST Date: 23 Nov 00 - 05:05 PM I was a serious young parent who believed in letting my child know every truth straight from the shoulder, no matter how painful. Went to live in the mountains, and on Christmas Eve my neighbour came down the hill and said to my three-year-old son "open the window at midnight and you'll hear Santy going by on his sleigh". My son stared doubtfully at him, but stayed up till midnight, when we opened the windows, and duly heard the sound of sleighbells, rung by the neighbour every year for his children. I didn't have the heart to get into any serious discussion about truth or fable. |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: Mrs.Duck Date: 23 Nov 00 - 03:10 PM Sorry to upset the apple cart but when I talk about Santa or rather Father Christmas I am not referring to some ancient Turk but to a much older tradition. He is the spirit of midwinter who brings the promise of new year, He exists and I for one will never tell my children otherwise! I still feel the magic on Christmas morning as I watch them open their gifts and nothing could be more real than that. Anyway if he doesn't exist then who leaves all these presents and eats the mince pies! |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: Jon Freeman Date: 23 Nov 00 - 12:24 PM from black walnut (who is having problems posting to Mudcat): You're quite right, Marion, to bring St. Nicholas into the discussion. He was certainly important in our family talks about Santa. (We didn't lecture or throw cold water on the subject, by the way....it was more that we tried to be open and honest when they came to us with their questions....but if they wanted to put out the milk and cookies, we helped them write the note to go with it). There IS a magic about Christmas, though, that can make me absolutely believe the most wonderful and hopeful of things. Every year that magic appears, despite the horrid muzak in the stores, and the ads which imply that a low~cost gifts means low~level love, and that shallow way people have of equating "pretty" harp music only with this season of the year, and/or with angels (I play harp, if you didn't know). It's not just the magic of friends and families getting together. It's got something to do with the ritual of the advent wreath, the glow of candlelight, the smell of evergreen in the house, the liturgy of the midnight eucharist, exchanging a gift for good wishes from my dearest Jewish friend, and those fabulous renditions of the old old carols every year down at the Flying Cloud Folk Club at the Tranzac..... ~black walnut (whose hair is made of mistletoe, really!) |
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Subject: RE: BS: To Santa or not to Santa? From: JulieF Date: 23 Nov 00 - 09:01 AM I told my daughter that santa was real. Part of the magic is that when they come to disbelive its about the first time that they are thinking properly for themselves. The approach of critical thinking. As an athiest I found it much harder to deal with my daughter's questions about the existence/ nonexistence of god as at primary school it is taught as fact. She had to come to terms with the fact that her parents thought differently to how she was taught. I was rather delighted when at the age of 6 she decided that Adam and Eve must have been the first people to evolve. Let the kids believe in the santa, tooth fairy etc and enjoy the fun but welcome the fact when they start thinking for themselves. All the best Julie |
