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Help: Concertinas
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Subject: Concertinas From: GUEST,Mary Dailey at the library Date: 24 Nov 00 - 04:19 PM I am a folksinger, accompanying myself on guitar and lap dulcimer, and I am toying with the idea of accompanying myself with the concertina. I was inspired by Ray Owen who I saw recently - he uses banjo, guitar and concertina to accompany his singing. Because I do a lot of Irish songs I'm feeling like the concertina could give me a sound I am not able to achieve with the other instruments. But, alas I need help choosing which type I need - I understand there are two categories, one of which is Anglo. Any info is appreciated! |
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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas From: Jon Freeman Date: 24 Nov 00 - 05:31 PM Hi Mary, there have been a few threads on concertinas that you might like to search out. Also, might find the Hobgoblin concertina FAQ's of use. Jon |
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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas From: Bill D Date: 24 Nov 00 - 07:00 PM also, try this page on more than you ever wanted to know about concertinas. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas From: GUEST,Mark. West Sussex. UK Date: 24 Nov 00 - 07:21 PM There are three basic systems. Anglo (Anglo-German), English and Duet. Anglos make a different note on a pushed button when you push and pull the bellows. English make the same note on both push and pull. Duet is a hybrid of both systems and is not recommended for beginners. Anglos are usually pitched in two keys (eg G and D) and are favoured by Celtic Tune players for fast palying across the keys in Jigs and Reels. English are used by Morris players, Shantymen and Singers. There are more buttons on an English Model but generally they are easier to learn and use for vocal accompaniment. All concs, old and new are expensive. Old ones may suffer from sharp pitch, duff reeds, leaky bellows and sticky buttons. All repairable at cost. Try "Barleycorn" in Scotland or "Marcus Music" in Wales. (Cheaper than Hobgoblin). A.C. Norman (UK 01825 713551) will make to order or advise on sources of second-hand. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas From: Bernard Date: 24 Nov 00 - 07:28 PM For self accompaniment, the 'English' or 'Duet' systems are best - English being the more commonly available. Duets tend to be bigger, and there are a few different 'systems'. If you can play one English, you can play them all. Anglo-chromatic concertinas tend to be limited in the keys you can play in - unless you're prepared to work really hard. The commonest anglos are C-G, although people re-tune them - I have one I re-tuned to D-A. English concertinas were designed by Charles Wheatstone to facilitate reading music - the notes on the 'lines' being on the left hand, and the 'spaces' on the right. I play both, which is, in itself, a little unusual. I tend to play 'jolly' stuff on the 'bouncy' anglo, and the serious stuff on the 'smoother' English. It's a lot easier to 'play by ear' on an anglo - which is 'blow and suck' like a mouth organ or melodeon, its near relatives. You need plenty of time to get used to an English before 'ear' playing becomes second nature, as the notes don't appear to be in a logical order, even though they are!! I'd advise you to persevere with an English - it's far more versatile in the long run - you can play interesting chords in so many more keys, and you don't have the problem of the bellows being 'in' when you want them 'out', etc... Good luck! Concertinas are very rewarding!! |
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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas From: Anglo Date: 24 Nov 00 - 08:48 PM There are a number of people who can play the Anglo well in different keys (I remember Brian Peters accompanying Lou Killen on "Blaydon Races" at a folk festival a couple of years ago, seamlessly moving from G to F when Lou wanted to sing a bit lower) but for the most part on a C/G instrument, say, you want to be in C or G, maybe Am, Em or Dm. Unless you can afford a lot of instruments (and concertinas do _not_ come cheap) you might be better off with the English if you like to sing in a range of keys. And carrying a large number of concertinas around significantly reduces the portability index. (That's primarily why I gave up on melodeon, the other reason being it's a bit like playing the left hand side of the anglo with the right hand). Good luck. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas From: Bernard Date: 25 Nov 00 - 06:22 AM Exactly! There are a few people who've really mastered the Anglo - but it's only practical on a 36 key or better - 20 key models are really only for beginners, 30 key models start to be useful, but still limited. The problem with an anglo is you have to pick your keys carefully if you want to play more than one note at a time - chances are one of the notes you want is on the 'suck' and the other on the 'blow'! The problem isn't there with the English. Any road up, Mary, in your Dailey trips to the Library have you come up with a concertina you fancy? I was lucky - my two anglos cost me nowt, and my English (all three are Lachenals) was very cheap, as it was slightly damaged. Fortunately I am able to repair concertinas, melodeons, accordions and wicker-bottom chairs (erm?), so it was not a problem! Not many people pay £20 for a Lachenal Edeophone!! TTFN! |
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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas From: Manitas Date: 25 Nov 00 - 05:32 PM Mark, English is not good for morris dancing being hard to play standing up and not having an inherent rhythm (which is not to say it can't be done!). Anglo's are generally used. There is another class which has been missed out. The Chemnitzer is particularly associated with polka bands in the USA and the fingering system is apparently closely related to the bandoneon so beloved of Argentinian tango musicians. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas From: Bernard Date: 25 Nov 00 - 05:53 PM Au contraire! There are lots of Cotswold sides who use English concertinas alongside melodeons - I agree the Anglo (being very similar to the melodeon) is favoured as a solo instrument for Morris. The side I play for (Earl of Stamford) usually has Alan on Melodeon, John on English, and me with the accordion. John has large wrist straps to facilitate playing his English (a Wheatstone) standing - I've never found it to be a problem myself. That way we are able to vary the sound, and it allows a musician to dance if he chooses. As to the chemischnitzelwotsit - it's a new one on me! It sounds more like a Japanese suicide pilot!! Are there any over here in England? Bandoneons I know - a sort of cross between a melodeon and an accordion... Anyone got pictures? |
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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas From: Jon Freeman Date: 25 Nov 00 - 06:07 PM Bernard, try this site. I'd never heard of one either. Jon |
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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas From: Noreen Date: 26 Nov 00 - 12:40 PM Next step- any advice on a good song to start with when accompanying oneself on the concertina? I play a very few tunes on my Anglo and would like to try accompanying myself singing. Any ideas, please? Noreen |
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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas From: Rick Fielding Date: 26 Nov 00 - 12:44 PM Mary, you came to the right place! Four weeks ago I asked for help with a new single-row button accordion I'd just purchased. I'm almost ready to take it on stage thanks to Mudcatters' help. They won't steer you wrong. Rick |
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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas From: Anglo Date: 27 Nov 00 - 12:14 PM The Chemnitzer is more like a bandoneon, quite large, square, used as lead in polka bands. Multiole reeds per key, so it sounds more like an accordion. I think of it only as a concertina in that both left and right hands have single notes, (no chord buttons), which to me has always been the defining difference between a concertina and am accordian. But no-one has said much about the duet. Someone loaned me a Crane duet once, and I couldn't figure it out at all. I once heard that Tim Laycock learned on a Triumph system duet because that's the only concertina he could find that was affordable. Basically, the Duet is a chromatic instrument, with push/pull on a button giving you the same note both ways (like the English), the main difference being that you have all the notes on each hand, rather than split across the two sides of the instrument. The left hand is pitched lower than the right hand, though there is some overlap. The (very basic) idea is that you can play the melody on the right hand and an accompaniment on the left, like on the Anglo, but you're not limited to the diatonic push/pull availability of notes in a particular direction, and you're not stuck in one key. There are several systems, McCann is perhaps the best known. One that's become more popular in recent years is the Hayden, which has the advantage that to play in a different key you just start at a different place; the fingering pattern is the same. One of the musicians on our local morris team uses the Hayden quite successfully. Noreen, you have to give some idea of what style of music you like to play to get a good answer to your question. You could play "This Land Is Your Land" quite successfully on the concertina, but that may not be what you have in mind. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas From: Margo Date: 27 Nov 00 - 12:21 PM I vote for English when it comes to accompanying yourself with song. Best advice I got when I was selecting which concertina style to buy was TRY BOTH FIRST. I rented an anglo from the Button Box in Massachussets. I began to learn how to play, and found it wasn't hard to learn, but that it wasn't easy to do what I wanted, which is to play chords while I sing. Then I tried an English, and quickly found that I could do what I wanted to with that one. It was easy for me to make up my mind because I had a particular style of music that I wanted to emulate (specifically Lou Killen's style in shanteys). I was able to accomplish that, and then found that I could do melodic playing as well, like jigs and reels. I pass along the best advice I got; PLAY BOTH FIRST! Then you'll know better what you want to do, and won't agonize over spending the do re mi. Margo |
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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas From: GeorgeH Date: 27 Nov 00 - 12:52 PM It's not really true to say a duet is a cross between Anglo and English . . All duets play the same note on the push and the pull; what characterises them is that both ehds have "white" and "black" notes; the left hand side being at the low end of the scale, the right hand side the high end . . just like a keyborad. With some overlap between the two ends. They were designed as a poorer-man's keyboard. And they do tend to have rather a lot of keys! As noted, they come in different arrangements. My wife and Tim Laycock have a pair of concertinas which LOOK virtually identical (they were both made by Wheatstone and are very close in serial number.) However Tim's is a Crane while my wife's is a McCann . . . G. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas From: Bagpuss Date: 27 Nov 00 - 01:31 PM I've got an English which I'm hoping to use to accompany myself singing. I think its the best for me as I tend to sing fairly slow sad songs in a variety of keys (depending on how well my voice is holding up!) So now I just have to save up to get my bargain fixed and then learn to play it! KT |
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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas From: GUEST,julie of arabia Date: 27 Nov 00 - 01:52 PM for Anglo (27 nov)- a concertina IS an accordion, or better said a member of the free reed family which also includes organs, harmonuiums, harmonicas and of the course the father of it all--the sheng. Chords vs single notes isn't the defining feature. There are freebass accordions - the buttons being individual chromatic notes on the left side . A chemnitz is a concertina. they came out of eastern europe when someone wanted more notes and sound than was possible on the anglo and english models. variations on a theme so to speak. back to the original question. -depends on your disposable income - anglos tend to be cheaper than english styles (comparing the entry level). happy singing. they are really fun instruments and go easily into the overhead luggage bin. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas From: Bernard Date: 27 Nov 00 - 02:15 PM Noreen - regarding songs to sing - with an Anglo, stick to tunes with very few long notes, so that you aren't forever 'running out of bellows'. Songs which fit the 'two chord trick' of tonic and dominant 7th are good - typically 'Lord of the Dance' which is bouncy enough to cover up judicous use of the air key. Amazing Grace is NOT good for the Anglo - too much bellows in one direction, and the long 'D' (assuming you're in G) needs the D chord, which is not possible on some Anglos! 'I'll Tell Me Ma' is another good 'un, and 'The Rare Ould Times' is possibly worth the effort it would need. Admittedly it needs the subdominant chord (C if in G, and F if in C), but you can cheat that by just playing the major third (C & E if in G, F & A if in C). The secret to good accompaniment is don't try to be clever! Stick to chords rather than trying to play the tune, and throw in a few passing notes to fill in the spaces. GOLDEN RULE! Never change bellows direction with your fingers holding notes down - always lift off. Okay, there is always an exception, but it's a point of 'good practice', just like avoiding putting your thumb on black notes on a keyboard... |
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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas From: Noreen Date: 27 Nov 00 - 02:30 PM Thanks, folkies- very interesting. Need to get some ink for the printer and study above in detail. 'The Rare Ould Times' sounds a good one, Bernard, I'd like to learn that anyway. Anglo, thanks for telling about the Hayden make- I've not heard of them before, and would have remembered as that's my maiden name. Do you know where they're made? Noreen |
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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas From: GUEST,CraigS Date: 27 Nov 00 - 04:36 PM There is another concertina system, invented by a Brian Haydon about twenty years ago. The system is apparently very easy to learn, and also very suited to acconpaniment. I understand that concertinas based on this system can still be obtained from Wheatstone. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas From: Anglo Date: 27 Nov 00 - 05:44 PM Yes, as CraigS just pointed out, the Hayden (Haydon? I'm not sure which) is a system, not a maker. Wheatstone (now Steve Dickinson in England) makes them, as well as English & Anglo. In the US I'd go to the Button Box in Amherst for information. The owner has a Dickenson/Wheatstone which he plays, and they would certainly know who else makes them. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas From: GUEST,mary dailey at library Date: 29 Nov 00 - 07:23 PM Thanks for all the info everyone. It sounds like English is the way for me to go, and I'll do some shopping around for a used one first. Happy singing all! |
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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas From: Bernard Date: 06 Jan 01 - 11:46 AM I would agree, there - the Anglo is better suited to 'ear' players (at a beginner's level), whereas the English requires a little more discipline. The English was designed to be a music reader's instrument, as I posted on the other thread - Charles Wheatstone specifically put the 'lines' on the left and the 'spaces' on the right. I don't wish to spark off a debate by suggesting one is 'better' than the other, as that is far from the truth; I'm merely suggesting that an Anglo is 'friendlier' in the early stages, particularly for a 'non musician'. I've got some MIDI files of fairly easy Morris tunes which work well on an Anglo - G row only! PM me with your email address if you want them. |
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Subject: Crossed threads!! From: Bernard Date: 06 Jan 01 - 11:53 AM Whoops! That last posting was intended for the other thread: blicky!! |
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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas From: The Sandman Date: 25 Oct 07 - 01:16 PM The Hayden is a duet system,I was the first person to record on it commercially,it has in my opinion certain disadvantages,it is easay to play in about four keys,then it becomes difficult physically,as one has to stretch ones hand a longway to get to certain keys. I am a great fan of the English Concertina[imo]a very versatile instrument.http://www.dickmiles.com |
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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas From: Fliss Date: 25 Oct 07 - 03:50 PM I play Irish music on an English Lachenal c 1880s. But Ive never tried accompanying myself singing.. I find its like patting your head and rubbing your tum at the same time. Ill stick to singing with a guitar or unaccompanied. Anyway its horses for courses, good luck. I prefer the older concertinas to the chunky new made ones. fliss |
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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas From: Greg B Date: 25 Oct 07 - 05:22 PM Song accompaniment is really quite easy, on English, once you have the knack of that. To get said knack, Capt. Birdseye has written a tutor just for that purpose, available for purchase on his web site. (Now if we could just get him to make his CDs available for MP3 down and/or purchase on CDBaby.com) |
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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas From: curmudgeon Date: 25 Oct 07 - 05:31 PM American buyers can get Dick's tutors through The Button Box in Amherst MA. And for those who are interested in Duets, here's a new website for Crane System concertinas - Tom |
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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas From: The Sandman Date: 26 Oct 07 - 07:16 AM YES I think the Crane is a good system. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas From: GUEST,Ralphie Date: 26 Oct 07 - 07:23 AM Bah Humbug... The Crane is just a McCann that hasn't reached puberty yet... And as for the Jeffries duet, it's just plain dyslexic..!! Off to get coat. Ralphie |
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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas From: stevep Date: 26 Oct 07 - 11:18 AM As someone who struggled for two years with an English, and achieved far more in two weeks with a Crane duet, I am convinced that a lot of success/failure with a concertina is to do with the way your brain is set up. With the English, I could manage chords with the left hand, and to some extent with the right hand. But playing a melody, going left-right-left-right, and moving to different columns of buttons at the same time, and not forgetting to push and pull, it just didn't come naturally, or even with practice. With the duet, a melody is (usually) all played with the right hand, and on the Crane system the buttons are in a pretty logical (or at least consistent) order. Not always a practical option, but I would say to anyone who wants to play one, try all three systems if you can (Anglo, English, and Duet) before buying. |
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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas From: Bernard Date: 26 Oct 07 - 02:50 PM My chord technique on an English tends to be two fingers on either side to get a 'spread chord', with a fifth at the bottom and a third at the top, or summat similar. I find that it lends itself to playing chords with a tune on top quite well, too. My Anglo technique is quite different - I tend to play bits of chords in the left hand, and the tune on the right. One of these days I may try a Duet, but I find my 120 bass piano accordion quite versatile enough! It has plenty of 'couplers', so can be played very quietly... honest! |
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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas From: Valmai Goodyear Date: 27 Oct 07 - 07:39 AM We've got an all-day workshop with Rob Harbron for all concertina systems at the Lewes Arms in Sussex, UK on Saturday 24th. November. Rob plays English (brilliantly) with Faustus, The English Acoustic Collective and with Nancy Kerr and James Fagan. He'll have insights to offer which will be valuable to players of other systems. In the evening he performs at the Lewes Arms with the superb fiddle player Emma Reid, who's also doing an all-day workshop. Here's a booking form for the workshop and evening: Lewes Arms Workshop No 89 ROBERT HARBRON CONCERTINA WORKSHOP Saturday 24th. November 2007 10.45 a.m.- 4.45 p.m. Places £30 The Lewes Arms Mount Place, Lewes, East Sussex BN7 1YH Rob is widely considered the most important concertina player of his generation. He is known for his work with Dr. Faustus, Tim van Eyken, The English Acoustic Collective, Emma Reid, & The Three Magpies (Rob, Nancy Kerr & James Fagan. He has been a popular tutor for Folkworks, Hands-On Music & a great many more. The workshop will help players of all abilities develop an individual style of playing. It is primarily for English system players but Anglos & Duets are also welcome. Music will be available beforehand but the focus will be on ideas & technique using your existing repertoire, so ear players & readers should feel equally comfortable. Rob will explore some of his trademark bellows & chord techniques. IN THE EVENING ROBERT HARBRON & EMMA REID PERFORM AT THE LEWES ARMS FOLK CLUB (£6: advance tickets from address at end of this form) Provisional Timetable 10.45 Registration & coffee; order lunch (refreshments not included) 11.00 Phrasing & ornamentation 12.30 Lunch 13.30 Chords & bellows techniques; some thoughts about constructing accompaniments for tunes & songs 15.00 Tea/coffee break 15.15 Putting it all together: looking at how a combination of ideas & tricks can bring a tune to life. 16.45 Finish N.B. Booking is recommended as numbers are limited. Maps & accommodation lists will be sent on request. ROBERT HARBRON CONCERTINA WORKSHOP Saturday 24th. November 2007 BOOKING FORM I would like to attend the workshop on 24th. November 2007. I enclose a cheque for £30.00 for workshop fees (refreshments not included). Name: Address: Telephone: E-mail address: Concertina system: No. of tickets for evening performance: (£6 each; include SAE for these) Tick for map: Accommodation list: Please make cheques payable to Lewes Arms Folk Club and send with this booking form to: Valmai Goodyear, 20, St. John's Terrace, LEWES, East Sussex BN7 2DL Tel. (01273) 476757 e-mail:valmaigoodyear@aol.com http://members.aol.com/lewesarmsfolk/ |
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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas From: The Borchester Echo Date: 27 Oct 07 - 07:48 AM Rob Harbron isn't in Faustus. He used to be in Dr Faustus where, as well as English concertina he played bassoon and definitely 2nd fiddle (© Paul Sartin) who is in Faustus. Sorry Valmai, only dropped in to say how fab Rob's CD with Emma Reid is. Bye. |
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