Origins: Knoxville Girl

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Knoxville Girl
From: GUEST,Zant
Date: 02 Jun 10 - 12:51 PM

I was rocked to sleep as a baby with Knoxville Girl..only it was "In a town of Expert" in the version my Grandmother and Mother sang. I know my grandmother sang it to my Mother in the year 1910...and to me in the 1930's My lullaby's were all cowboy songs...and lots of murders...lol I always wondered why he killed her.. www.erols.com/olsonw is a good explanation.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Knoxville Girl
From: RWilhelm
Date: 19 May 10 - 05:38 PM

Check out PlanetSlade.com's excellent history of this song: Unprepared to Die: Knoxvile Girl

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Knoxville Girl
From: GUEST,Lono
Date: 19 May 10 - 03:54 PM

Patrick Sky....Yonkers Girl

Subject: RE: Knoxville Girl's UK roots
From: GUEST,Paul Slade
Date: 23 Jul 09 - 04:49 PM

I must admit, I'd never come across any of those songs until you mentioned them.

I've now had a chance to look up Lucy Wan and What Put the Blood elsewhere on Mudcat, however, and I see the crucial verses have a killer, confronted by his mother, who explains away the blood on his clothes by telling her it's an animal's blood. In fact, as his mother quickly guesses, it belongs to either his brother or his sister, who the man's just killed.

Mudcat dates Lucy Wan back to 1827. Knoxville Girl's American predecessor, The Lexington Miller, was still using the miller's servant rather than his mother at around that time, so it's perfectly possible that whoever rewrote it to introduce the mother already knew the floating verses you mention. Even so, part of his motivation could still have been to make the song more identifiable for his American listeners.

There's no mention of a nosebleed in any of the songs you mention – or, at least, not in any version I've seen – and that element of Knoxville Girl can be traced directly back to The Bloody Miller in 1683 or so.

I'm glad you enjoyed my piece, and thanks very much for raising this interesting point about it.

Subject: RE: Knoxville Girl's UK roots
From: Ruth Archer
Date: 23 Jul 09 - 01:58 PM

"The Berkshire Tragedy verse above has him holding this conversation with a servant, but that would hardly have been a credible circumstance for the early Scottish and Irish settlers who first brought this song across the Atlantic. Knoxville Girl sets the conversation in simple family surroundings, having the killer confronted by his worried mother: "Saying 'Son, what have you done,   
To bloody your clothes so?'      
I told my anxious mother,      
I was bleeding at my nose."

I don't think this verse can simply be explained by Irish and Scottish settlers who, not being familiar with keeping servants, transformed the servant into a mother. It bears too much resemblance to the floating verses found in Edward, also known as Son, Come Tell it Unto Me or Who Put the Blood (Child 13); Lucy Wan (Child 51); and The Twa Brothers (Child 49).



Interesting to possibly trace the song back to an historically verifiable incident. Thanks.

Subject: RE: Knoxville Girl's UK roots
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 09 - 09:12 AM

This was a big hit for the Louvin Brothers who said it was originally an Irish song called ' The Wexford Girl '

Dave H

Subject: Knoxville Girl's UK roots
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Jul 09 - 06:10 AM

Knoxville Girl

I've just added a new essay about Knoxville Girl to my Murder BaIlads website.

It traces the song's origins as a 17th Century English ballad, follows its journey across the Atlantic and tracks down the original 1683 parish records naming the killer and his victim.

If that sounds interesting to you, please click the link above. The same (non-profit) site contains my Stagger Lee and Frankie & Johnny essays, which people here were kind enough to say they enjoyed back in May.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Knoxville Girl
From: Bill D
Date: 08 Apr 08 - 12:40 PM

Margaret Webster...it is possible to collect versions and make a CD, but it would be hard to know when you had 'all' of them, especially since most traditional versions are very close.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Knoxville Girl
From: Bill D
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 06:58 PM

I discovered 'classic' versions by:

The Pine Valley Cosmonauts w. Brett Sparks

The Louvin Brothers

The Wilburn Brothers

Jimmy Martin

and a very NOT so classic version by

Mark Jungers..(sounds like Bluegrass-Rock)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Knoxville Girl
From: Midchuck
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 10:15 AM

Damn it, Mark, you beat me again.

"We went to take a little walk, to a dark and lonely place;
I grabbed a rail from off the fence, and smashed her in the face."

Peter.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Knoxville Girl
From: Mark Ross
Date: 07 Apr 08 - 10:02 AM

Anyone ou there in Mudcatland remember Pat Skiy's take on this? It was called YONKERS GIRL, I think, and it was on he album SONGS THAT MADE AMERICA FAMOUS(subtitled, "Something to offend everybody.") After cutting off her head , the head floating down the river says,

"Our love has changed, you are deranged,
Now you and I must part."

Mark Ross

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Knoxville Girl
From: Janie
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 11:31 PM

Hi Margaret,

Start with reading the threads referenced at the beginning of this thread to "Knoxville Girl," other related songs and versions. Then you can decide your own definition of "this one song." Once you have done that, you will need to decide if a compilation is feasible, begin to research songs that you want to include, seek out recordings, and seek permissions as needed for any copyrighted recordings, etc.

Good luck with it.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Knoxville Girl
From: Goose Gander
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 11:28 PM

There are 315 variants listed in the Roud Index #263

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Knoxville Girl
From: GUEST,Margaret Webster
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 11:09 PM

How many renditions of this song (THE KNOXVILLE GIRL) are there? I would like to have a CD with all versions ever recorded. Is this possible? How could I do a compilation of this one song?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Knoxville Girl
From: GUEST,ruthanne
Date: 15 May 03 - 10:49 AM

I am doing workshop production of a play....and wnat to include the the the Knoxville girl...though I want to get more background on thhis ong...I am new to Appalacian Ballads....so please be kind...I have fallen in lov them as well.....

Where did the song originate and was it sung in certain areas...where? Kentucky....Tennesse ....which concentrated parts of appalachia would that be? any ides at all would help me out...

Are there any female recordings of this song...that really stand out....

thanks very much

Subject: Origins: Knoxville Girl(Louvin Bros.)
From: GUEST,ballpienhammer
Date: 05 Feb 03 - 03:51 PM

this song is a bit on the dreary side, dealing with murder. Comments?

---

I moved this message here from another thread on the same topic.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: Lyr Add: KNOXVILLE GIRL (from Blue Sky Boys)
From: masato sakurai
Date: 15 Jul 02 - 09:37 AM

The Blue Sky Boys version (in The New Lost City Ramblers Song Book, Oak, p. 167) has this stanza:

I taken her by her golden curls,
I drug her 'round and 'round,
Throwing her into the river
That flows through Knoxville town;
Go there, go there, you Knoxville girl,
Got dark and rolling eyes,
Go there, go there, you Knoxville girl,
You can never by[sic] my bride.

~Masato

Subject: RE: Tune Add: knoxville girl
From: masato sakurai
Date: 14 Jul 02 - 09:49 PM

There're RealPlayer recordings of the song by:

The Louvin Brothers (Click here, from Honkytonk's Country Classics

The Wilburn Brothers (Click here, from The Record Lady's All-Time Country Favorites: "Real Country Archives Page 7").

Both has similar stanzas.

~Masato

Subject: RE: Tune Add: knoxville girl
From: masato sakurai
Date: 14 Jul 02 - 09:20 PM

That seems to be the version the Louvin Brothers sang. Go to this thread (DTStudy Murder Ballads with bloody noses), which has the version and many links.

~Masato

Subject: knoxville girl
From: GUEST,carolyn
Date: 14 Jul 02 - 07:27 PM

I just looked at the song "Knoxville Girl" and that is not the one I remember at all. The one I learned as a child went something like this:

He grabbed her by her golden curls and dragged her round and round.
He threw her in the river that runs through Knoxville town.
Go there, go there you Knoxville girl, with hard and knowing eyes.
Go there, go there, you Knoxville girl, you will never be my bride

Am I too old or are these to "hills of Kentucky" for anyone to have heard of them...lol
Would love to know if you have ever heard this before..
Thanks Carolyn
[e-mail]

Subject: RE: knoxville girl
From: GUEST
Date: 13 May 02 - 09:32 PM

my fave var is "gnostic girl".

Subject: RE: knoxville girl
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 02 Mar 02 - 11:26 AM

A widespread song in many forms; I put a longish list of references here and elsewhere on the net in this earlier discussion:  Hanged I shall be

Subject: RE: knoxville girl
From: Charcloth
Date: 02 Mar 02 - 09:36 AM

I'm suprised no one ever came out with "Brentwood Girl"

Subject: RE: knoxville girl
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 02 - 10:26 PM

There are lots more titles for other versions. It is P35 in G. M. Laws' 'American Balladry from British Broadsides', where Laws cites many traditional texts and gives some of the broadside texts. However, he didn't know about the original 17th century version.

Subject: RE: knoxville girl
From: Giac
Date: 01 Mar 02 - 10:08 PM

Not to mention the Wexford, Waxweed, Waxwell girls. A bunch of those are in the Max Hunter collection.

Subject: RE: knoxville girl
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 02 - 10:00 PM

There are two copies of a late revised version under the same title, "The Bloody Miller" on the Bodleian Ballads website.

Subject: RE: knoxville girl
From: GUEST
Date: 01 Mar 02 - 09:51 PM

The original version, about a real murder in 1684, is "The Bloody Miller" in Scarce Songs 2 at www.erols.com/olsonw

Subject: RE: knoxville girl
From: masato sakurai
Date: 01 Mar 02 - 09:01 PM

The lyrics are in the DT. 'Knoxville Girl' (recording by The Wilburn Brothers) is HERE (The Record Lady's Real Country Archives).

~Masato

Subject: RE: knoxville girl
From: raredance
Date: 01 Mar 02 - 08:45 PM

Is this free association or is there a query?

rich r

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Knoxville Girl
From: CRANKY YANKEE
Date: 20 Mar 01 - 11:19 PM

You know what? The Louvin Bros. made a mistake in the last couple of lines of the song and everybody since is singing it the mistaken way without bothering to examine the rhyming. They (and everyone else) sang:

They carried me down to Knoxville and locked me in A CELL.
My friends all tried to get me out, but none could go my bail.
I'm doomed to spend my life away down in this dirty old JAIL
Because I murdered that Knoxville girl, the girl I loved so well.

It should go, (and it rhymes):

They carried me down to Knoxville and put me in THE JAIL
My friends all tried to get me out, but none could go my bail.
I'm doomed to spend my life away down in this dirty old CELL
Because I murdered that Knoxville girl, the girl I loved so well.

See, it rhymes like this.

HTML line breaks added, typos corrected. --JoeClone, 12-Jun-02.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Knoxville Girl
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 20 Mar 01 - 01:35 PM

Links to all the variants available at the Max Hunter Collection are in the earlier thread I linked to above.  I have now added to that thread the version I referred to in my previous post, together with links to midis of the tune for it, and "Shepherd" Hayden's Norfolk version, of which the Albion Country Band recorded an arrangement.

The Wexford Murder

Malcolm

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Knoxville Girl
From: Giac
Date: 20 Mar 01 - 01:18 PM

KimC -

Here's a link to the Max Hunter Collection's Waxweed Girl, which has music and recording. At the bottom of the lyrics is a list of similar tunes, some words are just a little different, while some are really different.

Waxweed Girl

Giac (who is from the Max Hunter region, but lives in spittin' distance of the Knoxville Girl's hometown)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Knoxville Girl
From: Kim C
Date: 20 Mar 01 - 12:29 PM

Thanks Bruce! I'll see if I can remember how to decipher ABC...

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Knoxville Girl
From: Kim C
Date: 20 Mar 01 - 12:25 PM

Thanks Malcolm, I will check it out. I am afeared the Grismond words are just a leeeeeetle too much... I'm not sure I would be personally comfortable singing them, and leaving some of the parts out would wreck the story. :)

Subject: Tune Add: WEXFORD GIRL
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 20 Mar 01 - 12:22 PM

Texts of "The Wexford Girl" are much easier to find than a tune. Here's one which ABC2WIN won't display properly. Grace notes should be slured to following note.

X:1
T:Wexford Girl
S:Doerflinger, Shantymen and Shantyboys
L:1/4
M:3/4
J:1#
K:Dmixolydian
B3/4 c/4|d2B|G2B|(c2F)|A2 z/B/|({B/}A2)D|G2E|(C3|C)zE|\
DD({E/}F)|G3|A3/2z/({A/}B)|A2D|(GF)E|D3|]

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Knoxville Girl
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 20 Mar 01 - 11:41 AM

Wexford Girl is a later form of the song, commonly found in America but rarely in England; it would, I suspect, be an Irish localisation of the earlier Oxford Girl.  You can find several American tune variants through my first link above; meanwhile, I'll have a look around here; I certainly have one, The Wexford Murder, which Fred Hamer got from Walter Church of Bedfordshire; Church had in his youth (turn of the 19th/20th century) briefly emigrated to Canada, and learnt it from Irish friends there.

Malcolm

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Knoxville Girl
From: Kim C
Date: 20 Mar 01 - 10:48 AM

Okay. But what would be the tune for The Wexford Girl?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Knoxville Girl
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 19 Mar 01 - 07:16 PM

Broadside index is first blue clicky on my homepage. Use your browser's Edit/Find command on ZN1624 to get to Bloody Miller, and ZN1998 to get to Wm. Grismond.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Knoxville Girl
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 19 Mar 01 - 05:15 PM

I have to confess that I, too, got lost at Bruce's site looking for Grismond (though I did find some very interesting stuff about The Beggars of Coudingham Fair); the text isn't hard to find, but I couldn't locate a tune -not to worry, though.  The DT entry for  William Grismond  has midis of the two tunes that Stephen Sedley printed in The Seeds of Love (1967); the file doesn't name sources for them, but the first is a traditional one (collected early 20th century) from Gavin Greig's MSS, and the second is from the appendix to Kinloch's Ancient Scottish Ballads (1827).

Malcolm

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Knoxville Girl
From: GUEST,Roll&Go-C
Date: 19 Mar 01 - 05:04 PM

Willie-o, have you checked out Steve Sellor's fine parody FOR THE LOVE OF WILLY (WILLY-O) in the DT. Clears the air in splendid fashion, and there's no reference to Jimmy or other folks.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Knoxville Girl
From: Kim C
Date: 19 Mar 01 - 04:28 PM

Bruce, I looked on your very excellent website but I am completely ignorant as to how to navigate it and arrive at the point you suggested. (sheepish grin)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Knoxville Girl
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 19 Mar 01 - 04:08 PM

Follow ZN1624 to ZN1998 (Wm. Grismond, model for bloody miller, and source of its tune) in the broadside ballad index on my website for directions to a Scots traditional tune.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Knoxville Girl
From: Kim C
Date: 19 Mar 01 - 03:14 PM

Is there a recording of say, The Wexford Girl or some of the earlier tunes? I mean, if I were going to learn one of the early versions, what tune would I use?

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Knoxville Girl
From: Willie-O
Date: 18 Mar 01 - 07:49 PM

Ahem...I'm sorry about that girl now. I've learned some anger management techniques that help me express myself without resorting to violence.

My brother Johnny-O, though, he's a different story.

No Jimmy was ever in the running.

However it has been noted that young women in ballads do not usually fare well when they meet with Scots or sailors, let alone that worst of possible combinations, the Scottish sailor named Willie. Or Johnny.

Willie-O
Not a Sailor

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Knoxville Girl
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 18 Mar 01 - 01:57 PM

Hi MaryBeth, I see you found the Mudcat, refreshed the thread and all, nice going for a newbie! I'm refreshing this again so maybe we'll get a few more bites. (looks like the heavyweights have checked in, though...)

Mary (aka Mary in Kentucky)

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Knoxville Girl
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 17 Mar 01 - 03:07 PM

I put a series of links to rather a lot of variants of this song from Britain, Ireland and America, plus a number of broadside texts, in this recent thread:  Hanged I Shall Be

Malcolm

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Knoxville Girl
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 17 Mar 01 - 02:22 PM

The bleeding nose is in the original version of 1684 noted above.

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Knoxville Girl
From:
Date: 17 Mar 01 - 01:16 PM

Both my mother and grandmother sang this song and the words they used were nearly the same as those quoted by guinnesschik above. There were some small variances in the fourth verse. Beginning with "Dear Son" my mother and grandmother sang, "My son, my son what have you done to bloody your hands and clothes? The only answer that I gave was a bleeding of the nose."

Mother and grandmother also sang a last verse that is not included in the version quoted by guinnesschik. In this last verse the young man is waiting to be hanged and he laments, "Gather 'round me ye young men, all ye young men of Knoxville town" and I can't remember the rest of the verse. Please, if anyone knows this verse, post the words.

Thank you...MaryBeth

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Knoxville Girl
From: tar_heel
Date: 25 Nov 00 - 05:07 PM

Hey mike. It's WILLIE, not JIMMY...WILLIE! Its WILLIE, in THE KNOXVILLE GIRL, song.... Also in DOWN IN THE WILLOW GARDEN (or, ROSE CONNELLY) and in ON THE BANKS OF THE OHIO! All of the murderers are named, WILLIE! (Oh Willie dear, don't kill me here, I'm not prepared to die) Knoxville girl, (I drew my knife, across her breast.... as into my arms she pressed.... she cried, oh Willie, don't you murder me.... I'm not prepared, for eternity!) Banks of the Ohio! (And now he waits at his cabin door...wiping his tear dimmed eyes, waiting for, Willie his son, upon the scaffold high) willow garden!

Subject: RE: Lyr Req: Knoxville Girl
From: Mike Byers
Date: 25 Nov 00 - 07:27 AM

The last verse I have (and I can't recall where I learned it) is:

I rolled and tumbled the whole night long; my life was living in hell;
Before they came from Knoxville to carry me off to jail.
I'm here to waste my life away, and time is passing slow,
Because I killed that Knoxville girl, the girl that I loved so.

An aside here: did you ever notice how many of the guys in murder ballads are named "Jimmy"? If I were a woman, I'd sure do my best to avoid guys named Jimmy.