Help: Twa Recruiting Sergeants - How old?

Subject: RE: Help: Twa Recruiting Sergeants - How old?
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 03:39 PM

Jon,
Absolutely! Just because 2 songs share a few words and one may have been inspired by the other certainly doesn't make them the same song by any stretch of the imagination.

The only thing I can see they have in common is the one line 'Over the hills etc' and this we demonstrated recently on another thread derives from earlier ballads of the 17thc so both songs could derive from the earlier independently, or their similarities could simply be mere coincidence.

Subject: RE: Help: Twa Recruiting Sergeants - How old?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 12:32 PM

Thanks for the historical info, Teribus.

Below is the well-known "ancestral" song in full, from Henry Playford's _Wit and Mirth: or Pills to Purge Melancholy_, Vol. IV, pp. 102-104. (Playford, not D'Urfey, was the sole editor of the first edition.) The indicated "foregoing Tune" - "Jockey's Lamentation" - is not notably like the "Twa Sergeants" tune.

The great Bruce Olson provided words from the second ed. of _Pills_ (1707)on an earlier thread. Except for trivial differences in punctuation, spelling, and italicizing (all reproduced below for pedants), the 1706 words are identical.

The refrain of "Twa Sergeants" has been modernized from this song. But aside from that and the general inspiration, the two songs are quite distinct:



       _The Recruiting_ Officer; _Or, the Merrie Voluntiers: Being an Excellent New_ Copy _of Verses upon Raising Recruits. To the   foregoing Tune.

Hark! now the Drums beat up agen,
For all true Soldiers Gentlmen;
Then let us list, and March I say,
Over the Hills and far away;
Over the Hills and o're the Main,
To _Flanders, Portugal_ and _Spain_,
Queen _Ann_ Commands and we'll obey,
_Over the Hills and far away_.

All Gentlemen that have a Mind,
To serve the Queen that's good and kind,
Come list and enter into Pay,
Then o're the Hills and far away;
Over the Hills and o're the Main,
To _Flanders, Portugal_ and _Spain_,
Queen _Ann_, &c.

Here's Forty Shillings on the Drum,
For those that Voluntiers do come,
With Shirts and Cloaths and present Pay,
When ore the Hill and far away;
Over the Hills, &c.

Hear that brave Boys and let us go,
Or else we shall be Prest you know;
Then List and enter into Pay,
And o're the Hills and far away;
O're the Hills, &c.

The Constables they search about,
To find such brisk young Fellows out;
Then let's be Voluntiers I say,
Over the Hills and far away;
Over the Hills, &c.

Since now the French so low are brought,
And wealth and honours to be got,
Who then behind wou'd sneaking stay,
When o're the Hills and far away;
Over, &c.

No more from sound of Drum retreat,
While _Marlborough_, and _Gallaway_ beat,*
The French and Spaniards every day,
When over the Hills and far away; &c.

He that is forc'd to go and Fight,
Will never get true honour by't,
While Voluntiers shall win the Day,
When o're the Hill and far away;
Over, &c.

What tho our Friends our Absence mourn,
We all with honour shall return,
And then we'll sing both Night and day,
Over the Hills and far away;
Over, &c.

The Prentice _Tom_ he may refuse,
To wipe his angry Master's Shoes:
For then he's free to Sing and play,
Over the Hills and far away. &c.

Over Rivers, Bogs and Springs,
We all shall live as great as Kings,
And Plunder get both Night and Day,
When o'er the Hills and far away.&c.

We then shall lead more happy Lives,
By getting rid of brats and Wives,
That scold on both Night and Day,
When o're the Hills and far away. &c.

Come on then Boys and You shall see.
We every one shall Captans be,
To Whore and Rant as well as they,
When o're the Hills and far away, &.

For if we go 'tis one to Ten,
But we return all Gentlemen,
All Gentlemen as well as they,
When o'er the Hills and far away; &c.


Olson adds the following in explanation of "Gallaway":

"Henry de Massue, French, created Earl of Galway by the English in 1697, reviving extinct title. In 1707 he lost the battle of Almanza. The tune, presumeably Irish, "Lord Gallaway's Lamentation", probably refers to him. (D. O'Sullivan's 'Carolan', II, p. 128-9)."

Lloyd and others note that "The Recruiting Officer" is sung in George Farquhar's play of the same name, also published in 1706. The play, however, includes only Playford's stanzas 10 (with a "soundrel" master); 12 (who "scold and Brawl"); the refrain (with "the "Queen" unspecified); and the first couplet of stanza 13.

Interestingly enough, the Dublin-born playwright Farquhar was himself a recruiting officer for the British army from 1703-1706. It suggests at least the possibility that during that period he himself wrote the full song, abridging it and improving a few words for the play. (Both appeared independently in 1706.)

The "Twa Recruiting Sergeants" looks like an inspired Scots rewrite and expansion of the stanzas sung in Farquhar's classic play. "The Voluntiers" could not have simply "evolved" into the "Sergeants."

Scott, undoubtedly reflecting wider usage, called the Black Watch "The Forty-Twa" so early as 1816.

Subject: RE: Help: Twa Recruiting Sergeants - How old?
From: GUEST,Teribus
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 03:17 AM

As far as the "Black Watch" goes and references to France, Spain and Gibraltar in the chorus ("Through Gibraltar tae France and tae Spain) the song would have to date from the French Revolutionary Wars and the early years of the Napoleonic War together covering a period from between 1796 and 1807 when the 42nd Regiment of Foot was stationed at Gibraltar (In 1808 the Spanish became our allies).

Subject: RE: Help: Twa Recruiting Sergeants - How old?
From: Gutcher
Date: 29 Aug 13 - 02:53 AM

Lighter--it was no joke. I will get back with the story behind the song when I return from the hospital in the late evening if someone does not give it before that time.

Subject: RE: Help: Twa Recruiting Sergeants - How old?
From: GUEST,Lighter
Date: 28 Aug 13 - 10:04 PM

A recent performance with a folk-processed tune that seems to be getting popular:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSdtjb2xOow

Though the name "Black Watch" was used informally in the 18th century, it seems that the name became official - as "The Black Watch (Royal Highlanders)" - only in 1881. Greig & Duncan collected their versions in 1906.

The direct, informal diction suggests to me that the song as we know it is most likely a late 19th century creation - though of course the refrain harks back to the Napoleonic Wars.

I don't know of any broadside printings.

"But a' that they 'listed wiz forty and twa" is obviously a joke on the pre-1881 designation, "42nd Highland Regiment." Compare "The Gallant Forty-Twa," a name suggesting that there were only 42 of 'em.

The song seems not to have been well known beyond Northeast Scotland until Jeannie Robertson popularized it during the Revival.

Subject: RE: Help: Twa Recruiting Sergeants - How old?
From: GUEST,Rab B
Date: 07 Feb 11 - 04:35 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pk1zlT6ti9U

Know I'm late with this post.   Saw this Band live a couple of years ago at the Black Watch Barracks in Dundee.   Their live version is brilliant, especially when there is 200+ troops singing along with them.
The bands name is a Parcel o Rogues.   The above link will get to them on Youtube

Subject: RE: Help: Twa Recruiting Sergeants - How old?
From: Kim C
Date: 29 Nov 00 - 10:29 AM

Thanks Malcolm. There are some situations where I will not play something that can't be documented, and others that are a bit more free where I can say "we don't really know anything about this song but we like singing it so here it is, if you know anything about it please tell us."

Since we don't have any recordings of period performances, we can only guess at some things, and do the best we can with what we've got.

Isn't research FUN?!?

Subject: RE: Help: Twa Recruiting Sergeants - How old?
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 29 Nov 00 - 06:18 AM

This version of the song became popular among revival singers during the 1960s, as Stewie mentions above in his reference to A.L. Lloyd's comments.  The source for this version was Jeannie Robertson, though John Strachan recorded another traditional version (also, I think, from the Northeast) at around the same time, which was set in the Victorian period and did not mention the Black Watch.  The difficulty with dating a song like this one is that, while it can with reasonable certainty be traced back to a presumed ancestor -in this case The Recruiting Officer of the early 18th century, as Bruce says- it is however pretty well impossible to tell at what point it became identifiably (text or tune) the song we have here, and, for that matter, at what point the Black Watch became involved (presumably at around the time a "localised" variant became established?).  The fact that it refers to campaigns which are themselves dateable doesn't of itself indicate the song's age, since these may derive from earlier songs in the line of descent.  When looking for material for "authentic" performance, the only certain way is to stick to things which had appeared in print in the form you intend to use, by the required date; mind you, since truly "historically accurate" performance is essentially impossible, I assume that there's a certain amount of leeway allowed in such things!  In all, it seems very unlikely that the song had evolved into anything very close to the particular form we have here by 1790, but that doesn't prove that it hadn't...

Malcolm

Subject: RE: Help: Twa Recruiting Sergeants - How old?
From: Calach
Date: 29 Nov 00 - 04:01 AM

TWA RECRUITIN' SARGEANTS is definately about the Black Watch regiment.... Only highland regiments wore the kilt, lowland regiments wore trews, plus, even today the regiment wears no badge, just a red hackle comprising several red feathers... "get a feather in your bonnet, a kilt abin your knee" Black Watch regiment formed 1720ish???
calach

Subject: RE: Help: Twa Recruiting Sergeants - How old?
From: Stewie
Date: 29 Nov 00 - 01:09 AM

Quite right, Bruce. I typed 'Sergeant' because it was on my mind from the thread title. Mea culpa.

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: Help: Twa Recruiting Sergeants - How old?
From: Thyme2dream
Date: 29 Nov 00 - 12:40 AM

At least the MaCMiniMall brings in the Scots element eh? Aye right, like the Glencoe massacre was all about the soup and restaurant business! (Campbell, MacDonald....??)

Subject: RE: Help: Twa Recruiting Sergeants - How old?
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 09:30 PM

Farquhar's play was The Recruiting Officer, and only a version of the chorus appears printed editions of the play.

Subject: RE: Help: Twa Recruiting Sergeants - How old?
From: Stewie
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 07:30 PM

A.L. Lloyd pointed out that Farquhar's play, 'The Recruiting Sergeant' (1706) helped popularise 'Over the Hills and Far Away'. The song was often sung during the Napoleonic Wars. It 'survived for two and a half centuries among folk singers, dwindling all the time, till it seemed to be limited to the Scottish north-east'. Then a variant came back into 'vigorous circulation in English cities under the title "Two Recruiting Sergeants from the Black Watch"'. ['Folksong in England' Paladin 1975 pp 237-238].

--Stewie.

Subject: RE: Help: Twa Recruiting Sergeants - How old?
From: Kim C
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 05:13 PM

Mansker's Station in Goodlettsville, TN. It's a recreation of a fort built there by a longhunter named Kaspar Mansker. On the original fort site there is now a Kroger McMiniMall. (You want fries with that?)

Subject: RE: Help: Twa Recruiting Sergeants - How old?
From: Thyme2dream
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 04:18 PM

Well, I first heard it performed at a regional Renaissance Festival, so you have to be closer to the mark than that. Some of the Scots that fought in the revolutionary war were recruited the same way so I should think you could stretch it about 10 years and no one would notice. What sort of 1790 historical site?

Subject: RE: Help: Twa Recruiting Sergeants - How old?
From: GUEST,Bruce O.
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 01:12 PM

Gavin Greig said it was made to fit Victorian times ('Greig-Duncan Folk Song Collection',I, #77), but noted there were earlier versions.

The earliest version is "The Recruiting Officer",(Over the hills and far away) which (with ABC of its tune), is in the Scarce Songs 2 file on my website (in Mudcat's Links). The latter first appeared in 'Pills to Purge Melancholy', 1706.

Subject: RE: Help: Twa Recruiting Sergeants - How old?
From: Kim C
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 11:39 AM

I have also seen it listed as French & Indian war era, but I don't know.... the Black Watch was around at that time. Do you suppose we're safe enough to perform it at a 1790 historical site?

Subject: RE: Help: Twa Recruiting Sergeants - How old?
From: Calach
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 10:48 AM

Twa Recruitin' Sargeants.... the recruiting sergeant was the army equivalent of the naval "press gang". They operated in rural areas, enticing the less secure members of the community into army service. Once the young man had accepted the "King's Shilling" (whether he was sober enough to remember or not), he was listed as being in the army and treated as such.
They operated from the early 1700's to mid 1800's, but were most active between 1770 and 1815 drafting cannon fodder for the wars firstly in America, then against Napoleon in the Low Countries, Spain and Portugal, then latterly Belgium and France.
Other songs of the same ilk are; The Collier Recruit, & Over the Hils and Far Away, both featured heavily in the ITV TV series (PBS USA) "Sharpe" Starring Sean Bean.
Calach/Ian.

Subject: RE: Help: Twa Recruiting Sergeants - How old?
From: Thyme2dream
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 10:01 AM

I think it's from the era of the Napoleanic wars, Kim. (early 1800's) The chorus gives that indication with the locations mentioned

And it's over the mountains and over the main,
Through Gibralta, tae France and tae Spain,
Get a feather for your bonnet,and a kilt abeen your knee,
Enlist bonnie laddie, an' come awa' wae me.

I'll give my darlin' in Scotland a call tho and get him to post a bit more background for you~he knows a lot about the background of most Scottish folk songs.
~Thyme

Subject: Twa Recruiting Sergeants - How old?
From: Kim C
Date: 27 Nov 00 - 12:09 PM

For some reason I can't get the Super Search to work. It didn't work last week either. Does anyone know how old this song is? Thanks!

KC