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Lyr Req: Babe of Bethlehem

Peg 28 Nov 00 - 02:13 PM
Jim Krause 28 Nov 00 - 02:35 PM
Peg 28 Nov 00 - 02:36 PM
Hollowfox 28 Nov 00 - 03:16 PM
Peg 28 Nov 00 - 03:39 PM
Peg 28 Nov 00 - 03:43 PM
mousethief 28 Nov 00 - 03:53 PM
Allan C. 28 Nov 00 - 04:11 PM
Peg 28 Nov 00 - 04:14 PM
Wavestar 28 Nov 00 - 04:31 PM
mousethief 28 Nov 00 - 04:36 PM
GUEST,Arkie 28 Nov 00 - 04:44 PM
Peg 28 Nov 00 - 04:55 PM
Thyme2dream 28 Nov 00 - 04:55 PM
MMario 28 Nov 00 - 04:56 PM
MMario 28 Nov 00 - 05:01 PM
Peg 28 Nov 00 - 05:04 PM
Burke 28 Nov 00 - 05:21 PM
mousethief 28 Nov 00 - 05:38 PM
harpmolly 28 Nov 00 - 07:40 PM
GUEST,Arkie 28 Nov 00 - 08:36 PM
raredance 28 Nov 00 - 09:03 PM
Wavestar 28 Nov 00 - 09:06 PM
Barbara 28 Nov 00 - 09:15 PM
Thyme2dream 29 Nov 00 - 12:46 AM
Peg 29 Nov 00 - 12:21 PM
mousethief 29 Nov 00 - 12:30 PM
GUEST,Melanthe Alexian (parakeet@netbird.com) 29 Nov 00 - 02:21 PM
mousethief 30 Nov 00 - 12:46 AM
Burke 30 Nov 00 - 07:00 PM
Genie 24 Nov 02 - 02:12 AM
Jim Dixon 23 Dec 10 - 11:09 AM
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Subject: anyone know this Christmas song?
From: Peg
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 02:13 PM

I know the first two verses but not the third (there may be a fourth as well). I don't remember the name of it, either...Sang it in elementary school. Very nice melody and it has a mystical quality about it.

His parents poor in earthly store
to entertain the stranger
They found no bed to lay his head
but in the ox's manger
No royal things as used by kings
were seen by those who found him
but in the hay the sranger lay with swaddling bands around him

On the same night a glorious light
to shepherds there appeared
birhgt angels came in shinign flame
they saw and greatly feared
the angels said be not afraid
although we much alarm you
we do appear good news to bear as now we will inform you.

anyone know the last couple verses to this? many thanks and a smooch under the mistletoe if you can help!

peg (who is trying to come up with some obscure, spooky yuletide repertoire for the singers' club...)


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Subject: RE: anyone know this Christmas song?
From: Jim Krause
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 02:35 PM

Nice lyric. Never heard of it before. Hope you find the missing verses. Maybe the whole song could be posted someday.
Jim Krause


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Subject: RE: anyone know this Christmas song?
From: Peg
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 02:36 PM

yes I would happily post it if I can find the rest of it...


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Subject: RE: anyone know this Christmas song?
From: Hollowfox
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 03:16 PM

It's called Babe of Bethlehem, it's in DT, and it's on the Folk-Legacy album the Golden Ring (it was FSI-16, when it was put out on vinyl). Have fun, Mary.


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Subject: RE: anyone know this Christmas song?
From: Peg
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 03:39 PM

thanks Mary! that was easy. :)

happy holly daze...


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Subject: RE: anyone know this Christmas song?
From: Peg
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 03:43 PM

Yikes! I just checked out those lyrics and they are WAY more Christian than the version we sang in school! We started with the "his parents poor" and most of the "Jesus" lyrics were left out...

Now I am wondering if our school sang an amended version, or if the one in the DT is the one changed to make it more religious?

This is kind of a drag; in the version I am familiar with it is all about this mysterious birth and the shepherds witnessing a miracle--I liked this sense of wonder and mysticism; the one in the DT is all about praising Jesus, etc....

ah well, thanks anyway. Maybe I can find that old version.

peg


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Subject: RE: anyone know this Christmas song?
From: mousethief
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 03:53 PM

I realize my experience is limited, but I have never seen a traditional song changed to make it more religious, and plenty changed to make them less religious. I would suspect your school-days version was the bowdlerization.

Alex


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Subject: RE: anyone know this Christmas song?
From: Allan C.
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 04:11 PM

Well, what would you expect? It IS a CHRISTmas song, after all ;-)

But I would be curious to see the other lyrics.


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Subject: RE: anyone know this Christmas song?
From: Peg
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 04:14 PM

or maybe I am biased.

Or you are.

;0

BTW it has been my experience that plenty of songs are altered to add Christianized lyrics where earlier versions did not have them. I don't know what the ratio is of secularizing to Christianizing, but I would bet there has been more than enough of it on both sides...


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Subject: RE: anyone know this Christmas song?
From: Wavestar
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 04:31 PM

I'm really just curious, Peg, and don't mean to offend, but - It's only 'Christianised' if the baby's name is used, not if it's just celebrating his birth? Name or not, the story is clearly identifiable.

-J


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Subject: RE: anyone know this Christmas song?
From: mousethief
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 04:36 PM

But as has been pointed out, we're talking about a Christmas song. They tend to run toward the religious, Christmas being a religious holiday and all.

Can you give some examples of songs bowdlerized ot make them more religious? (I don't mean less bawdy, but more religious.)

Alex


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Subject: RE: anyone know this Christmas song?
From: GUEST,Arkie
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 04:44 PM

Since I have not checked on the origins of Babe of Bethlehem, this is strictly an opinion, but still one that comes from a lot of years of experience in dealing with music tradition. Peg, I suspect that your version is the newer one. Babe of Bethlehem has been around in the form in the data base for a lot of years I think the tune may have been around even longer than the words. This is not to say that your version is an inferior one. I like the lyrics you remembered and hope the remainder of that version will be found. Maybe Sandy can come to the rescue. If he does, I'll put in a plug for "Twas on a Night Like This", one of my all time favorite Christmas recordings which he and Caoline did with Cathy Barton and Dave Para and is available from Folk Legacy.


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Subject: RE: anyone know this Christmas song?
From: Peg
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 04:55 PM

I realize any "Christmas" song is about the birth of Christ, I am not that dense. It is that the tone of the song is so different in those two versions. The words in the DT seem to be glorifying Christianity AS A RELIGION; whereas the version I remember is simply about the birth of a holy child who happens to be Christ (who wasn't such a bad sort, really; until the Church decided to perpetuate centuries of murder, rape and pillaging in his name...oops, that's another thread, I guess).

Since the Christ myth is itself based on earlier solar deities (like Mithras, for example), I think the story is soemthing of a universal one. I liked the version of the song that wasn't all about Jesus the savior but seemed to marvel at ther wonder of this miraculous birth and the joy of the people in the surrounding land.

One version seems more romantic and mysterious; which I like in a song. That's all.


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Subject: RE: anyone know this Christmas song?
From: Thyme2dream
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 04:55 PM

If it was in School that you learned it Peg, I imagine that Alex probably has the right of it (hmmm, was that a pun?)at least in the US....the NEA is of the opinion that school children should celebrate diversity all day long as long as we don't include Christianity at all in the mix.

I can understand that this point of view might be a backlash from the OVER-emphasising of the religion in the past, which I agree was wrong as well,but can't we who are supposed to be enlightened find a more balanced middle ground? (This would be about the time I sigh heavily and realise that as long as both sides are motivated by fear, it won't happen easily)

Peace to you all,
Thyme


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Subject: RE: anyone know this Christmas song?
From: MMario
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 04:56 PM

Peg - why not use the two verses you qouted at the beginning of the thread (which BTW - you will note are the same in the DT)

follow with:

The city's name is Bethlehem, in which God has appointed,
This glorious morn a Saviour's born, for him God has anointed;
By this you'll know, if you will go, to see this little stranger,
His lovely charms in Mary's arms, both lying in a manger.


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Subject: RE: anyone know this Christmas song?
From: MMario
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 05:01 PM

hate it when I hit the wrong button!

anyway- in the above verse you could even change "Saviour" to "Child" without offending any but the most rabid Christians, yet lessen the overall "Christian" flavour - for those who do not care to see the (in my opinion) quite obvious Nativity story.

then finish with:

Then with delight they took their flight, and wing'd their way to glory,
The shepherds gazed and were amazed, to hear the pleasing story;
To Bethlehem they quickly came, the glorious news to carry,
And in the stall they found them all, Joseph, the Babe, and Mary.

That gives you four verses - and you pretty well remembered only three - so should be both long enough and complete enough to hang together as a song and a story.


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Subject: RE: anyone know this Christmas song?
From: Peg
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 05:04 PM

Mario; after seeing the lyrics, that was the other verse I remembered. That works quite well, doesn't it?

Thanks for the suggestion.

Thyme: I am all for lots of different holiday music and the most beautiful Christmas music I remember singing in school, well, all of it was about Christmas! Sacred is sacred. I often found the old-fashioned Victorian and medieval stuff was sometimes more evocative and subtle than the Negro Spirituals; doesn't mean they aren't all worthwhile or beautiful or musically interesting.

(sorry about that triple post, my computer said it wasn't working)

That's okay - machines have to burp now and then, too.:-) Duplicate postings deleted.
- el joeclone -


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Subject: RE: anyone know this Christmas song?
From: Burke
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 05:21 PM

It's from the Southern Harmony. William Walker had the published the first edition published in @1835. Click here for the music. Walker put his name on the tune. He would put his name on tunes he wrote himself or arranged from the oral tradition. If you get the 6/4 tunes like this one going at the right tempo, you can sometimes hear the original dance tune behind it. It was not unusual to use a secular tune for religious texts, but I'd also guess the school version is the modified one. A secular song as inspiration for a religious one was generally not of a religious nature at all. For parallel religious/secular songs see The Old Oaken Bucket (DT) and The Family Bible

I'll try to work the out later, but just looking at the middle line, where the melody is, I'd say it's what people have taken to calling modal. It's notated as A minor, but the melody has no 3rd & the 6th is used just once as a passing note. This makes it nicely pentatonic & neither major or minor. These can often sound strange & mysterious. The harmonies are minor. I did just try the treble, it uses just 5 notes. 1-5 of the minor scale. I like it.

A collection I have at home might have this tune & some additional notes. I'll check.


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Subject: RE: anyone know this Christmas song?
From: mousethief
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 05:38 PM

Yes, Burke, but the question was not religious songs written using the melody of a secular song, but rather a secular song having the words changed SOMEWHAT (not completely) to make it "more" religious. I've never heard of such a thing.

Alex


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Subject: RE: anyone know this Christmas song?
From: harpmolly
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 07:40 PM

mousethief:

what about "Greensleeves" a la "What Child Is This?" *g*

Okay, okay, tune only doesn't count, I suppose.

Back in my "born again pagan" days (about three years ago *g*), I found a website of paganized holiday songs. I hate to say it, but most of them were cheesy as hell. I think it's possible to be spiritual without making an utter pillock of oneself. I'm all for adaptation, but only if the new lyrics *don't* surpass the old lyrics in banality. Sigh.

Moll


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Subject: RE: anyone know this Christmas song?
From: GUEST,Arkie
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 08:36 PM

Burke, thanks for the notes on Walker. This has been a favorite Christmas song of mine for a long time. It plays nicely on the mountain dulcimer. It is very common for religious writers to adopt secular melodies for Christian songs. The Wesley's made no apologies for it. John supposedly said "Why should the devil have all the good tunes". What Child is This? using the tune of Greensleeves is another prime example. However, as Alex said for Christian writers to take a secular song and rewrite the words is a rare thing indeed. While I cannot think of an example, at present, I would not go so far as to say it has never happened.


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Subject: RE: anyone know this Christmas song?
From: raredance
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 09:03 PM

Three more recent printed sources of this song all have the same tune and directly cite William Walker's 1835 "Southern Harmony" (see link above). I am sure this list is neither all inclusive nor exhaustive. The song is in "The Season of The Year" by Irwin Silber (Oak Publications, 1971); "Mel Bay Presents Early American Christmas Music" by Glenn Wilcox (Mel Bay Publications, 1995); and "Spiritual Folk-Songs of Early America" by George Pullen Jackson (J J Augustin 1937, with Dover reprint in 1964)

The Mel Bay book calls the song "Milton" following the practice of naming tunes rather than lyrics. The notes there say that Walker' tune book sold over 600,000 copies in a few years and was the most popular early tunebook ever printed. The notes continue:"We attribute the setting to Walker as there seems to be no earlier source. the words are frequently found, like the tune, in variant forms. The complex rhyme scheme seems to demand a specific author, but as yet no one has been determined."

Jackson said that the "tune, evidently dorian, is of a type that was widely used and varied by folk singers." He calls the tune group the'Babe of Bethlehem' family and lists several other hymns in his book as belonging to the family as well as some secular songs including "The Peevish Child" & "When I First Left Old Ireland" from Petrie's Irish collections and "Lowlands of Holland" and "Virginian Lover from Cecil Sharp's collection. Jackson also added that "John Powell has set 'The Babe of Bethlehem' in a beautiful dorian-mixolydian form for mixed chorus. It is published by J Fischer and Brother, New York."

rich r


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Subject: RE: anyone know this Christmas song?
From: Wavestar
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 09:06 PM

I understand your point, Peg. I hadn't realised the nature of the difference, apparently.

Thyme2Dream: I was deeply frustrated by that in High school. With all the beautiful Christmas songs out there, we had to sing _Sleigh Ride_, a terrible version of _Jingle Bells_, _Winter Wonderland_, and the like, year after year. We could only sing anything about God if it was cultural (Spirituals) or in another language. All of John Rutter's gorgeous choral work, out of reach.

-J


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Subject: RE: anyone know this Christmas song?
From: Barbara
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 09:15 PM

A ramble through the Oxford Book of Carols would point out a number that probably had more pagan lyrics and then were "cleaned up" for church use:
"Tomorrow will Be My Dancing Day", "Furry Day Carol", "Holly and the Ivy" (of all the trees that are in the wood/ The holly bears the crown), "Holly Bears a Berry", I know there are more... possibly even "Lulley Lulay".
Blessings,
Barbara


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Subject: RE: anyone know this Christmas song?
From: Thyme2dream
Date: 29 Nov 00 - 12:46 AM

Wavestar...I was a senior in high school the first year our school district decreed that we couldn't call it a Christmas Concert any more...my beloved Music teacher decided that would be the year we would do Handel's 'Messiah'...for it's cultural value of course.


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Subject: RE: anyone know this Christmas song?
From: Peg
Date: 29 Nov 00 - 12:21 PM

agreed that if you take away the songs which address the sacred nature of Christmas there ain't much left...

there is no appreciation for historically-valued permutations of culture in the poltically-correct atmosphere of many modern school districts...but what ya gonna do? Either they're praying at volleyball games and can't have a Hallowe'en parade, or they have to celebrate Christmas, Hannukkah, Kwaanza, Ramadan and Yule equally (which means all lose their sacredness and uniqueness).

Some of my favorite memories of performing Christmas music in school (we had an award-winning concert choir led by an amazing music teacher) were the Messiah, of course; Palestrina's "O Magnum Mysterium," as well as another version of that text by a contemporary composer (Pinkham, I think); Sweet Little Jesus Boy; various versions of Lullay songs; and Lo, How a Rose ere Blooming...


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Subject: RE: anyone know this Christmas song?
From: mousethief
Date: 29 Nov 00 - 12:30 PM

Wavestar, your comment makes an interesting point about the goofy American idea of "culture" -- You say "we could only do it if it was cultural (Spirituals) or in another language."

Why are Spirituals cultural, and not native English or French carols? Don't the English and the French have a culture?

Not saying you belive this, Wavestar, but rather that it is part of this American stupidity about culture. By "culture" we mean everybody but our forefathers. They didn't have culture, culture is what deviates from European Mainstream. It's really very jingoistic.

Alex


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Subject: RE: anyone know this Christmas song?
From: GUEST,Melanthe Alexian (parakeet@netbird.com)
Date: 29 Nov 00 - 02:21 PM

I've never heard "Babe of Bethlehem" and will be looking it up. In your search for "spooky" or mystical Christmas carols, there's an Irish carol that would be great for your choir if you could find it.

The melody -- slow, melancholy, Judaic, and with a feel of "O Come Emmanuel" -- is fixed firmly in my mind, but unfortuntaely the title and lyrics aren't. All I have is this:

Shoon-a-shoon, I sing no psalm, little man although I am out of David's house and clan...

Hush-a-hoo, whirring of wings... Hush-a-hoo, stirring of strings...

though in slumber deep, his ears can hear my song of sleep.

The arrangement I heard was done by a women's choir. The soloist -- Lynn somebody -- had an unearthly alto voice. This is to be sung softly, thoughtfully, and almost as if Mary is dozing off herself, while the angels are singing her to sleep as she sings the baby to sleep.

But the way it's written, it could be any mother and child. Like many Irish carols from the mediaeval days, it is an expression of the mystery of motherhood and childbirth, rather than yet another celebration of Christianity as a religion. So if you could find it, this is one you might want to try. Luck, Mela


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Subject: RE: anyone know this Christmas song?
From: mousethief
Date: 30 Nov 00 - 12:46 AM

Actually if you think about it, the Christians adopted many pagan holidays, giving them a Christian meaning (assigning Christ's birthday in December, for example, on the date of the Saturnalia). That's like switching a song. I think it was a very shrewd, as well as kind, move. It was like saying, "just because you become a Christian doesn't mean you have to give up having fun on the same day." It was a big vote for festivals and goofing off and having fun.

(I've been reading in a book about the ancient, ancient origins of Maying -- going back probably BEFORE the Greeks and Romans. Each subsequent religion puts its own shine on it, but everyone of them allowed for maying. Until "Secularism" (if you will) came along and wiped it out nearly completely. If it is done any more, it is very self-conciously a re-creation. Sad.)

Alex


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Subject: RE: anyone know this Christmas song?
From: Burke
Date: 30 Nov 00 - 07:00 PM

Peg, If you're going to be doing this with a group, I recommend the 3 part online version. But if you're looking for some alternatives, I have the Southern Harmony original with an alto part added & the Dorain notes added. It's written by an alto who's really faithful to the traditional sound. I've also found the Powell version rich r referred to above. It was included in a collection Powell put together called Twelve Folk Hymns from the old shape note hymnbooks and from oral tradition. c1934.

Here are the notes he provided:
This carol is obviously of great antiquity. The words are as characteristic of the folk as is the melody and might well have been sung in one of the Mediaeval Miracle Plays. The tune is widespread in the oral tradition, where it is associated with other hymns and with several secular balads. The present version is based upont the that in the Southern Harmony, although a few tones are introduced from a traditional version. The melody is hexatonic, as the third does not occus. The setting may, therefore, be in either the Dorian or Mixolydian mode, according as the minor or major third is used in the harmonization. In the oral tradition the tune is usually Dorian, and certainly its structure conforms to the Dorian type.

Me again. The Southern Harmony generally used Aeolian minor even when Dorian was actually sung. In simple terms, if you use the Southern Harmony version just add a sharp to the key signature. That will change it to A dorian with the F sharp. If your bass can go lower you'll probably want to lower the whole song least 1 step.

PM me if you want some copies.

rich r thanks for the information. I have a library copy of Jackson's book so I was able to read up on the rest of what he said. I must admit I have a hard time hearing this tune as related to Sweet Prospect and Help me to Sing, but maybe it's a distant cousins where if you know the family well you can see the resemblance.


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Subject: Tune Req: The Babe of Bethlehem
From: Genie
Date: 24 Nov 02 - 02:12 AM

I just noticed that none of the subject lines in this thread mention the song's title.

Also, I'd like the tune if anyone can steer me to it.

Thanks,

Genie


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Subject: Lyr Add: BABE OF BETHLEHEM
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 23 Dec 10 - 11:09 AM

I believe the song can be found in these old books:

Twelve Folk Hymns: From the Old Shape Note Hymnbooks And From Oral Tradition, by John Powell, Annabel Morris Buchanan, Hilton Rufty (Glen Rock, N.J.: J. Fischer, 1934).

Spiritual Folk-Songs of Early America by George Pullen Jackson (New York: J.J. Augustin, 1937)

The Southern Harmony Songbook by William Walker (New York: Hastings House, 1939), page 78.

The following lyrics were copied from http://www.hymnsandcarolsofchristmas.com/Hymns_and_Carols/babe_of_bethlehem_2.htm


THE BABE OF BETHLEHEM

1. Ye nations all, on you I call, come hear this declaration,
And don't refuse this glorious news of Jesus and salvation.
To royal Jews came first the news of Christ the great Messiah,
As was foretold by prophets old, Isaiah, Jeremiah.

2. To Abraham the promise came, and to his seed for ever,
A light to shine in Isaac's line, by Scripture we discover;
Hail, promised morn! the Saviour's born, the glorious Mediator.
God's blessed word made flesh and blood, assumed the human nature.

3. His parents poor in earthly store, to entertain the stranger
They found no bed to lay his head, but in the ox's manger:
No royal things, as used by kings, were seen by those that found him
But in the hay the stranger lay, with swaddling bands around him

4. On the same night a glorious light to shepherds there appeared,
Bright angels came in shining flame, they saw and greatly feared
The angels said: Be not afraid, although we much alarm you,
We do appear good news to bear, as now we will inform you.

5. The city's name is Bethlehem, in which God has appointed,
This glorious morn a Saviour's born, for him God has anointed;
By this you'll know, if you will go, to see this little stranger,
His lovely charms in Mary's arms, both lying in a manger.

6. When this was said, straightway was made a glorious sound from heaven
Each flaming tongue an anthem sung: To men a Saviour's given,
In Jesus' name, the glorious theme, we elevate our voices,
At Jesus' birth be peace on earth, meanwhile all heaven rejoices.

7. Then with delight they took their flight, and wing'd their way to glory,
The shepherds gazed and were amazed, to hear the pleasing story;
To Bethlehem they quickly came, the glorious news to carry,
And in the stall they found them all, Joseph, the Babe, and Mary.

8. The shepherds then return'd again to their own habitation,
With joy of heart they did depart, now they have found salvation.
Glory they cry, to God on high, who sent his Son to save us.
This glorious morn the Saviour's born, his name is Christ Jesus.


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