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BS: Is liking pornography wrong?

GUEST,a well recognised catter 28 Nov 00 - 06:19 PM
mousethief 28 Nov 00 - 06:20 PM
harpgirl 28 Nov 00 - 06:36 PM
annamill 28 Nov 00 - 06:39 PM
Jim the Bart 28 Nov 00 - 06:43 PM
Ebbie 28 Nov 00 - 06:43 PM
Jim Dixon 28 Nov 00 - 06:46 PM
mousethief 28 Nov 00 - 06:49 PM
Wavestar 28 Nov 00 - 06:49 PM
mousethief 28 Nov 00 - 06:51 PM
bill\sables 28 Nov 00 - 06:53 PM
Morticia 28 Nov 00 - 06:55 PM
Zebedee 28 Nov 00 - 06:55 PM
Ebbie 28 Nov 00 - 06:58 PM
mousethief 28 Nov 00 - 07:03 PM
Bill D 28 Nov 00 - 07:05 PM
GUEST,Vicki 28 Nov 00 - 07:21 PM
Bill D 28 Nov 00 - 07:36 PM
Wavestar 28 Nov 00 - 07:41 PM
Bill D 28 Nov 00 - 07:41 PM
Jim Dixon 28 Nov 00 - 07:42 PM
Bill D 28 Nov 00 - 07:47 PM
Troll 28 Nov 00 - 07:52 PM
DanMulligan 28 Nov 00 - 07:52 PM
Jim Dixon 28 Nov 00 - 08:17 PM
Little Neophyte 28 Nov 00 - 09:20 PM
GUEST,FOG (FRIEND OF GNOME) 28 Nov 00 - 09:21 PM
Little Neophyte 28 Nov 00 - 09:23 PM
bseed(charleskratz) 28 Nov 00 - 09:45 PM
Bill D 28 Nov 00 - 09:52 PM
harpgirl 28 Nov 00 - 10:07 PM
DonMeixner 28 Nov 00 - 10:11 PM
Bill D 28 Nov 00 - 10:25 PM
Jon Freeman 28 Nov 00 - 10:27 PM
Matt_R 28 Nov 00 - 11:01 PM
Little Neophyte 29 Nov 00 - 06:10 AM
The Shambles 29 Nov 00 - 06:25 AM
Mrs.Duck 29 Nov 00 - 06:26 AM
Gervase 29 Nov 00 - 06:34 AM
John P 29 Nov 00 - 08:25 AM
Whistle Stop 29 Nov 00 - 08:50 AM
LR Mole 29 Nov 00 - 09:06 AM
SINSULL 29 Nov 00 - 09:20 AM
Gervase 29 Nov 00 - 09:31 AM
Jeri 29 Nov 00 - 09:54 AM
Bat Goddess 29 Nov 00 - 10:11 AM
Mooh 29 Nov 00 - 10:24 AM
Midchuck 29 Nov 00 - 10:25 AM
Mooh 29 Nov 00 - 10:26 AM
Naemanson 29 Nov 00 - 10:30 AM
radriano 29 Nov 00 - 10:51 AM
harpgirl 29 Nov 00 - 10:51 AM
Mooh 29 Nov 00 - 10:57 AM
GUEST,Matt 29 Nov 00 - 11:02 AM
Jeri 29 Nov 00 - 11:11 AM
SINSULL 29 Nov 00 - 11:49 AM
mousethief 29 Nov 00 - 12:14 PM
Willie-O 29 Nov 00 - 12:33 PM
GUEST,Matt 29 Nov 00 - 12:42 PM
GUEST,Fibula Mattock 29 Nov 00 - 12:57 PM
Willie-O 29 Nov 00 - 01:15 PM
Bat Goddess 29 Nov 00 - 02:11 PM
Mooh 29 Nov 00 - 02:20 PM
Jeri 29 Nov 00 - 03:15 PM
Thyme2dream 29 Nov 00 - 03:36 PM
Thyme2dream 29 Nov 00 - 03:47 PM
Seth 29 Nov 00 - 03:48 PM
Clinton Hammond2 29 Nov 00 - 04:34 PM
Naemanson 29 Nov 00 - 05:15 PM
Bill D 29 Nov 00 - 06:05 PM
Wavestar 29 Nov 00 - 06:47 PM
The Shambles 30 Nov 00 - 02:09 AM
Clinton Hammond2 30 Nov 00 - 02:44 AM
Naemanson 30 Nov 00 - 06:34 AM
Little Neophyte 30 Nov 00 - 07:52 AM
Grab 30 Nov 00 - 08:07 AM
Troll 30 Nov 00 - 08:07 AM
Bagpuss 30 Nov 00 - 08:34 AM
John P 30 Nov 00 - 08:49 AM
mousethief 30 Nov 00 - 10:56 AM
annamill 30 Nov 00 - 01:49 PM
mousethief 30 Nov 00 - 02:07 PM
Penny S. 30 Nov 00 - 03:49 PM
GUEST,Alliekatt 30 Nov 00 - 04:09 PM
Little Neophyte 30 Nov 00 - 04:30 PM
kendall 30 Nov 00 - 05:46 PM
Bill D 30 Nov 00 - 11:13 PM
Gary T 30 Nov 00 - 11:29 PM
mousethief 30 Nov 00 - 11:38 PM
Gary T 30 Nov 00 - 11:47 PM
mousethief 01 Dec 00 - 01:24 AM
Naemanson 01 Dec 00 - 06:33 AM
Little Neophyte 01 Dec 00 - 06:58 AM
Naemanson 01 Dec 00 - 07:48 AM
LR Mole 01 Dec 00 - 08:15 AM
John P 01 Dec 00 - 08:50 AM
Gary T 01 Dec 00 - 10:01 AM
Bill D 01 Dec 00 - 01:08 PM
GUEST,Matt_R 01 Dec 00 - 01:14 PM
Gary T 01 Dec 00 - 01:20 PM
Naemanson 01 Dec 00 - 02:26 PM
GUEST,Russ 01 Dec 00 - 02:47 PM
John P 02 Dec 00 - 07:06 AM
The Shambles 02 Dec 00 - 07:17 AM
Seth 02 Dec 00 - 06:50 PM
Bill D 02 Dec 00 - 07:50 PM
DanMulligan 03 Dec 00 - 05:47 PM
The Shambles 04 Dec 00 - 07:31 AM
Grab 04 Dec 00 - 09:11 AM
Gary T 04 Dec 00 - 12:40 PM

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Subject: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: GUEST,a well recognised catter
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 06:19 PM

Is pornography wrong?

Most males use it, but will totally deny it if their wife/girlfrind asks them.

Women know that we use it, we lie and say we don't.

WHY IS THAT?


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: mousethief
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 06:20 PM

Wrong according to whom? Some moral sources (e.g. some churches) say it's wrong; other say it isn't. Whether it's wrong for you, I guess, would depend on where you get your morals from.

Alex


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: harpgirl
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 06:36 PM

If you live in Alabama, you better watch out! You could get arrested! Marital aids are now illegal!


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: annamill
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 06:39 PM

I'm opening a video store (gutsy, huh) and just bought 3,340 adult films (we don't call them porn ;-) **BG**). I don't care if Honey watches them, but I have no real interest at this point in time. Maybe if they were a little more female oriented, instead of so very male oriented, I would be. The ones I have watched were boring to me.

Honey says he just watches for academic reasons. ???? Right! Funny, cause he's very prudish. Much more than me.

Love, annamill


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: Jim the Bart
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 06:43 PM

Difficult question, even if you ignore the problem in defining what is meant by "pornography". I would think that you'd have to eliminate the type of explicit material that involves children and the exploitation of someone against their will, both of which are obviously wrong. Some people would eliminate depictions of homosexuality and bestiality on a similar basis. You can go on to limit the field in all sorts of ways.

If you limit the field (on whatever basis you choose), and then change the question to "what's wrong with pictures that arouse the libido?" I can't give you a good answer. There are many prohibitions against practices that effect only the individual that are designed to protect us from ourselves. Maybe there are reasons rooted in religious and social taboos that may or may not have been legitimate once and may or may not be legitimate now. Maybe there a real, sound psychological reasons (the possible substitution of imagination for reality, or possible withdrawal from actual human contact, etc.) for these taboos. Personally, I think it's all extremely subjective.

If it doesn't become obsessive or excessive - why not?

Bart


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 06:43 PM

Whoo, Mousethief, that comes across as a little harsh.

I can't speak for men or for other women, for that matter, but I know how I feel about it.

The reason I don't like pornography is that it makes me feel bad. It's like reading a violent novel or watching a horrific movie with its attendant touch-of-sadistic aggression. The person I am then is not the person I want to be and is not the person I think I am. I believe that we all are capable of responding to button pushing.

I liken it to mob mentality. Many people would never by themselves beat someone up or torch a building but caught in a mob frenzy may find themselves doing just that.

I once had a graphic example of that. My daughter was 4 years old when one day I investigated an uproar in the courtyard of the compound where we were living. There was a group of maybe 6 kids, the oldest one 12, who were throwing rocks at a 5 -year-old and telling her to go home. My little daughter was among them. I waded into their midst, sent my daughter home to await our talk, told everyone to go home and to tell their parents that they could expect a visit from me that evening and walked the little girl home.

All that said, I'm sure pornography has its uses- in prisons and island shipwrecks- and that doesn't bother me in the least. It does seem a lonesome way to go.

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 06:46 PM

Ebbie - I don't get the connection between the incident you described and pornography.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: mousethief
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 06:49 PM

Whoa, I didn't mean it to be harsh. I just think there's no answer to the question simpliciter, because it depends so much on the source of one's values. In the church I am a member of, it is considered wrong. But if you're not a member of that church, then its moral strictures don't apply to you. According to other worldviews, it is not.

I'm sorry if I came across as being harsh; that certainly was not my intent.

Alex


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: Wavestar
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 06:49 PM

I'd like to think, Mousethief, that churches aren't the only sources of morality. What about your mother?

I don't think it's wrong, and niether do I get the feeling from it that Ebbie does, but I think Annamill's right, it's not that interesting. Look, those people are having fun. Don't you wish you were?

-J


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: mousethief
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 06:51 PM

Why does everyone read what they WANT to see, rather than what's there?

I didn't say churches were the only source of values. I gave churches as an EXAMPLE (look up "e.g." in your dictionary!) of one source of values.

Sheesh.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: bill\sables
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 06:53 PM

When the movie "Full Monty" was released, which is about a group of male stripers, my Mother in Law went to see it three times. I said ,as a wind up, that she was a dirty old woman which she denied. But if the movie had been about a group of girls striping and I had seen it three times she would have been the first to call me a dirty old man. You just can't win.
Bill


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: Morticia
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 06:55 PM

Easy question for me.......if it isn't exploitation, i.e. not children or people who are coerced into it in some way, and it serves a function.......( whatever that may be, and I guess it's different for each person) how can it possibly be 'wrong' or harmful? I have had , what I will be the first to admit, is very limited exposure and will say that from a female point of view, it seemed rather dull and stilted and not especially exciting but if women wrote the screenplays, I bet it would be more interesting.( Oh boy, bet that sets the cat anongst the pidgeons!)


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: Zebedee
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 06:55 PM

Certainly, almost all heterosexual men enjoy looking at scantily clad (or not at all clad) women

I can't see that that will ever change.

I think the danger occurs when the man sees the more (for a better word) 'obscure' stuff as being normal, and wonders why his wife / girlfriend isn't interested.

Ed

Hoping he's made his point without being gratuatous


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: Ebbie
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 06:58 PM

Jim Dixon- actually I agree! :) I did mean it as an example of button pushing that makes me feel bad.

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: mousethief
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 07:03 PM

There. Morticia has given a "source" (if you will) of morality that is not church-based. Her rule appears to be if something is not coercive, and serves a purpose, then it is okay (I'm sure she would also add harmful, of which coercive is a type, I think). And so, according to her worldview, it is NOT wrong.

This is the sort of thing I was talking about in my first post. Whether it's wrong or not depends on your worldview, in particular your "rules" (if you will) for determining what is right or wrong. And different people have different such "rules".

I'll let it rest now. (Unless I'm attacked or challenged again.)

Alex


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 07:05 PM

porn..(or 'erotica') comes in 1000 varieties, just like music...some is good, some is stupid, some is artistic, some is tasteless...and 'some' is *WRONG* (children who don't comprehend what it is about should NEVER be used that way!!!!)....people come in just as many varieties, and you just have to decide whether you like some of it...(it sure is available now to anyone with a computer...in ANY form!)


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: GUEST,Vicki
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 07:21 PM

Click here for a nice picture of me.
WARNING: you might want to read the rest of this thread before you click that link. --JoeClone


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 07:36 PM

*sigh*....and there are people with no judgement EVERYWHERE!


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: Wavestar
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 07:41 PM

Sorry, Alex, I misread, and didn't see your explanation until after I posted (cross posting and all.)

umm. Gee, thanks, GUEST,Vicki. That answers ALL our questions.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 07:41 PM

(I have no problem with an older woman who wants to be naked...but I have a LOT of disdain for 'vicki' who has a lousy sense of humor...)


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 07:42 PM

DON'T CLICK on GUEST,Vicki's link above. I did, and it did wierd things to my browser, like opening lots of extra windows and making it impossible to get back to Mudcat. I had to close ALL my windows and start over. And the pictures aren't even interesting.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 07:47 PM

Jim...you need a firewall program which won't allow pages like that to grab your computer....that picture was probably part of an 'agressive' porn marketing page..javascripts galore!!!


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: Troll
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 07:52 PM

Thats the problem with most porn. It is the joyless marketing of sex and is, for the most part, badly done and-above all else- boring. Morality aside, it's a pretty shallow and lonely way to spend ones time.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: DanMulligan
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 07:52 PM

wow.....i always wanted a woman with 3,340 adult films.

Bill D.- good answer
Morticia- women DO write some porn screenplays. I'll pick some up...you bring the popcorn.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 08:17 PM

There is NOTHING wrong with pornography. (Except in a few obvious cases that have been mentioned already.) The trouble is, in the public mind, ALL pornography gets tarred with the same brush as the harmful stuff. Anti-pornography zealots invariably trot out the WORST examples they can find and try to give the impression that all pornography is like that.

Pornography NEEDN'T BE degrading to women. Pornography NEEDN'T involve coercion, violence, children, or non-consenting adults. People who use pornography are NOT inclined to be loners, losers, or criminals.

Let's be blunt: people use pornography as an aid to getting themselves (or their partners) turned on. I would bet that the viewing of pornography is nearly always a prelude to either masturbation or sex with a partner. Pornography is the poor man's Viagra. If there is nothing wrong with using Viagra then there is nothing wrong with using pornography, either.

People probably wouldn't need pornography if they had better memories or better imagination.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 09:20 PM

I wish I had read through this entire thread first. That Vicky site took me about 1/2 hour to find my way out of it. I do not have a fireball computer program. That was some site!

Well I figure there is nothing wrong with pornography, but I wouldn't want a partner who thought that was his idea of foreplay.
I can not get into pornography. It feels so unreal and meaningless. If I had a partner who enjoyed watching it often, yes it would bother me.

Little Neo


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: GUEST,FOG (FRIEND OF GNOME)
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 09:21 PM

At long last an objective measured view on this thread Thank you Jim-you speak for many of us


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 09:23 PM

Jim, I have a great imagination.

Little Neo


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: bseed(charleskratz)
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 09:45 PM

My imagination is fine--but my memory is slipping...

Neo's Uncle Seed


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 09:52 PM

most men, I think, 'filter' porn in their minds...so that even a bad image can trigger a generalized response....I have become MUCH more selective in my ...ahem... senior years about what might be a really erotic image. 40 years ago, silly stereotypes ruled!......(Remember, many thousands of years of evolution have developed us so that men who are easily and quickly aroused reproduce more often! Look at what passed for porn in the Victorian era!)

I think that women 'tend' to judge images more, much as they would look at the total effect of how someone is dressed...and reject the images that seem shallow, stupid, or tasteless. It is often true that women, when they bother, do produce classier and more elegant erotica than men.....but men are not always appreciative...*grin*.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: harpgirl
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 10:07 PM

...hey Bon-Bon...think about this...for many citizens, visual and aural erotica is their only sexual outlet. Unequal access to loving sexual partners is still a reality in the 21st century. Moreover, it is a kind of safe sex that is a far healthier outlet than risking one's health and welfare in the sex trades or with one night stands. I support the use of sexual erotica between consenting adults and of consenting adults. And erotica is a necessity for many older adults as an aid to foreplay. It truly is the "poor man's viagra."
Not all of us are young, healthy, beautiful, socially skilled, and in loving relationships.
I do agree that any guy who liked his mags better than me would get the boot!


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: DonMeixner
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 10:11 PM

Guest

Short and easy answer: No

Long and difficult answer: How to separate the Erotic from the Obscene to please everyones prurient interest.

Don


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: Bill D
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 10:25 PM

does anyone remember the John Hartford song from 20+years ago..."Have Mercy on My Poor Old Prurient Intrest"? somewhere I have it on an old tape...


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 10:27 PM

I am pretty much with Mousthief on this one as most of it down to an idividuals set of morals which can involve religion or belief systems.

On a personal level, regardless of whether it is right by Christian (my beliefs) standards or not, I will vist a porn site once in a while maybe once a month but most of the time, it does little for me - I guess I prefer my own imagination...

Jon


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: Matt_R
Date: 28 Nov 00 - 11:01 PM

Right on harpgirl! Hey, when women don't even acknowledge your presence, you gotta make do SOMEHOW.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 29 Nov 00 - 06:10 AM

I totally get you Harpgirl. I forgot how young, healthy, beautiful, socially skilled, and loving I am.
:)
I can see how porn fits in. I guess I was just thinking not in my bedroom. Why watch a film when you can have the real McCoy.

:)


I must admit I was taking my time trying to find my way out of Vicky's recommended site.

Bonnie Baby


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: The Shambles
Date: 29 Nov 00 - 06:25 AM

I understand the word pornography. I know it exists. I have more of a problem with the word wrong. In truth pornography is neither right or wrong, it just is.

Like most things it is a matter of personal taste. What makes one person feel good, makes anther feel bad. Most people, I would suggest, are initially mildly curious but pretty much unmoved, one way of the other.

.

That it is the huge industry it is today, is mainly because society has told us that it is wrong. Is guilt itself, the biggest turn-on? It is most probably at that moment, that what some of us may call erotica becomes pornography. That is not to say that there are certainly things happening to people, caught up in that industry, that are not a serious cause for concern.

The main attraction of it, to the consumer, is that it is 'forbidden fruit'. The best thing about pornography on the internet, is that it has demonstrated very clearly that pornography is extremely boring, when it is so easy to come by.

Let our children see what 'adults' really get up to. I would suggest that we do much more harm to our children by our hypocrisy than by exposing them to the reality. Who are we protecting, them or us?


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: Mrs.Duck
Date: 29 Nov 00 - 06:26 AM

Matt I don't believe women take no notice of you. You want to get yourself over here and we'll find you a few!!And no, I haven't suddenly become Madam Duck!


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: Gervase
Date: 29 Nov 00 - 06:34 AM

I can't see anything wrong with pornography per se - it's such a vast field; from Greek vases via the lubricious works of Rembrandt and Turner to the cheesey joyless stills and videos of today. Human beings have always been fond of the erotic, and that's a healthy thing.
Most people, however, would object to pornography which was, as Morticia said, abusive or exploitative. There's the rub (as it were); a heck of a lot of pornography these days is abusive or exploitative.
Even "straight" porn tends to be made and distributed b fairly dodgy characters (in the UK at least), and having known some people on the fringes of the skin trade, I can say that many of them feel that participation in the hardcore porn industry (as opposed to the old-fashioned 'glamour' side of things) is little removed from pornography and few of them feel happy at having done it.
Maybe that's the reason for one of the biggest turn-offs with modern pornography - everyone looks either so darned artificial or just plain bloody miserable.
If your sexual imaginiation relied on pornography to fire it up, it would be a terribly joyless (and lonely) business!.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: John P
Date: 29 Nov 00 - 08:25 AM

Some random thoughts:

There is a lot of difference between pornography and erotica. Like most things, the line between the two is a subjective continuum.

One of the problems that a lot of people see with pornography is that it tends to objectify women. Women become things to be drooled over, rather than people to be known. I don't know if this has a real effect on real people with their real relationships.

Men and women - in general - get turned on in different ways. Most men respond more to visual cues than most women do. I find most pornography boring and stupid, but it gets me aroused anyway. I wish there was more well done, exciting erotica in the world, instead of all the lame and sad porn that doesn't affect any part of the person except the libido.

When my father-in-law was asked to sign a petition to place a bill before the legislature outlawing allowing children to see pornography, he said. "Hell no! How do expect them to learn anything?"

A woman my wife knows became turned on for a while by an actor on TV. Her husband said, "I don't care who pumps up the tires as long as I get to ride the bike."

How is having sex for money in front of a camera any different than having sex for money in a motel room? How about this one -- is prostitution wrong?

If our society wasn't sexually sick in the first place, pornography wouldn't be able to find a toe hold. But titilation helps sell things, and being in a position to define morality gives people who like to run other peoples' lives an avenue to do so. Power and money are powerful motivators to keep pornography happening.

There are lots of ads on TV that sell things by promising, in essence, that buyng the product make you sexually attractive and cause members of the opposite sex to drool over you. Is this any different than pornography? A difference of degree, certainly, but is there a difference of type?

John


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 29 Nov 00 - 08:50 AM

Like a lot of things, it's largely a question of definition. For myself, I am more disturbed by images of violence than by images of healthy sexual relations between consenting adults, and I think the violent stuff is more damaging to my kids than the erotic stuff. I consider the excessively violent movies to be the real pornography; unfortunately, these are pervasive, and pretty much available to people of all ages.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: LR Mole
Date: 29 Nov 00 - 09:06 AM

Well-considered thread.Trying to figure out what people respond to is impossible (and ranking which is "better", a game which always seems to prove that the person ranking is at the top of the tasteful list, is generally just ego). Still, honestly, there is something sad to me about these pictures. So many songs not to be sung. The theft of innocence is always wrong.And I'm embarassed by these tags at the bottom of my screen that say FREE PICS...FREE SEX...


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Nov 00 - 09:20 AM

I too am bored by any I have seen - usually squirreled away in my son's laundry. What makes teenage boys think you won't find it in the laundry? I had no problem with him watching the stuff but had to make the point that the women in these films did not appear to be there by choice. Drugs, prostitution, poverty appeared to play a role. This was underground, raunchy, made in a local motel porn. I found myself pitying them all. I prefer my own healthy imagination and Orson Welles.
See - it works. Now I have you all imagining it.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: Gervase
Date: 29 Nov 00 - 09:31 AM

Sorry, Orson Welles never did it for me! Still, if I could have had his voice...


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: Jeri
Date: 29 Nov 00 - 09:54 AM

Hypothetical dialogue"

"I don't think you should look at that."

"Why not?"

"Well, it's dirty."

"It looks like people having fun."

"Yes, but it's exploiting people!"

"Well, the actors got paid, and nobody made them do that. Movies that make you cry are exploiting viewers just as much. These make you horny. You wanna talk exploitive? Let's talk advertising."

"But these movies and pictures have sex in them, and sex should be private. It's a subject that should be treated differently than other types of human interaction."

"Why?"

"Because sex is different. Sex without love is dirty. Sure, the sex drive is just basic human instinct, but in our culture, sex without love is just plain wrong. Sex should be sacred, like love."

"You've just explained why I like the naughty stuff so much."

Interesting that (I believe) in our culture(s), sex is treated so differently than other bits of human nature, that pornography is both abhored and sought after. I believe if there were less of a taboo, nobody would be complaining about porn, and no one would spend an inordinate amount of time looking at it, although they might very well still look. Note that I'm not talking about criminal stuff such as kiddie porn, which is just plain evil.

Opinion, in case you haven't figured it out: Shame causes more harm than looking at pictures of people having sex. Also, the more "taboo" a society makes a thing, the more fun the secret enjoyment of it is.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 29 Nov 00 - 10:11 AM

I think John P. about covered it. I learned about sex from James Bond books (and the odd medical encyclopedia) because my parents certainly couldn't talk to me about what should be a normal part of growing up. My mother thought I was a virgin (and pregnant; you figure it out) when I got married. I hadn't the heart to tell her I was neither.

Curmudgeon and I operated a "gourmet" video shop for several years, specializing in foreign and classic films, and quirky and indie productions. We also carried "gourmet" adult films, mostly vetted by me. There are some good ones out there. I prefer f***k films with plots and humor and perhaps a bit of fantasy. Films like "Take Off" and "Alice In wonderland" and "classics" like "Behind the Green Door" and "Autobiography of a Flea." We rented a lot to couples and women.

Cut to the chase: I don't think visual eroticism appeals to most women, but we can enjoy interesting depictions of eroticism as long as it doesn't involve damaging behavior, especially in the company of someone we care about.

Bat Goddess


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: Mooh
Date: 29 Nov 00 - 10:24 AM

You mean, like, The Bare Naked Ladies? But is it folk?


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: Midchuck
Date: 29 Nov 00 - 10:25 AM

I was reading some Wiccan stuff on the web and I came to their guideline:

"'An it harm no one, do what thou wilt."

I don't buy into Wicca much more than I buy into the more established religions, but they certainly have a more rational moral code.

Sinsull, what's your basis for saying the women in the porno films/videos/pictures/statues/whatever were involved in it against their will? Children, yes. No one here has argued that point. But I think most of the adult women participants do it because it's easier money than running a checkout at Wal-mart - and more interesting for some, though many of them appear to be trying to hide boredom.

Peter.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: Mooh
Date: 29 Nov 00 - 10:26 AM

...oh, but it is blues...Mooh


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: Naemanson
Date: 29 Nov 00 - 10:30 AM

Yes, let us consider that the subject of porn is the portrayal of sex between two adult humans. With that out of the way let's go on to other comments made above.

There are comments about people in pornography being forced into that situation. That MAY have been the case in the past but no longer today. There is a book, now out of print apparently, called Working Sex. I own a copy but cannot find it just now so what follows may appear a little vague. I'll keep looking.

The author is a journalist who wrote a column on the sex trade in her city. As a result she was bombarded with more detail than she needed so she wrote the book to encompass more than prostitution. She has included pornograhic films, strippers, dial-a-sex lines and other forms of the trade. She interviewed the various members of the trade from the workers to the managers, camera operators, directors, producers, etc.

Sex is now considered by those people to be an honorable trade. In some forms it is a very dangerous trade as well. There is a director, a woman who used to act in porn films, who is a star in the porn film world for producing films with a woman's perspective. I need to find the book to give you more details if they are "desired" but I have not seen any of her films so I cannot judge. The few porn films I have seen are, as described above, only designed to arouse the male libido.

People are interesting in their reaction to sex and its portrayal. My sister has made the comment that she would rather have her 5 year old daughter watch a murder on TV than two people having sex. I believe that is because she couldn't deal with the inevitable questions the child would raise.

I have seen plenty of similar reactions to sex in other people. The recent circus in Washington over Bill and Monica is a perfect example. They were both consenting adults. In my eyes the only thing wrong with that scenario was that he is a married man. But there were so many people outraged by what had happened that it became the cause celebre for a nation of peeping toms.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: radriano
Date: 29 Nov 00 - 10:51 AM

As has been noted in many of the other postings to this thread, there are many different kinds of pornography. I find some pornography enjoyable - it certainly is safe sex these days.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: harpgirl
Date: 29 Nov 00 - 10:51 AM

...Mrs. Duck, you made me laugh out loud! Madam Duck, indeed! Hey Mattie...would you like some cheese with that whine?


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: Mooh
Date: 29 Nov 00 - 10:57 AM

When I clicked on Guest Vicki's link I was repeatedly assaulted by unwanted images and advertising, ending with an ad which eclipsed my whole screen and the only way I could get out was to shut down my computer. That's what I get for being a smartass?

Maybe if I'm not the only victim the mayor of Mudcatville could intercede and erase the link?

Still alive and well. Mooh.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: GUEST,Matt
Date: 29 Nov 00 - 11:02 AM

Yes, some havarti, please. No really, it's the truth! I don't give me that "just sint to them" malarky. I tried...they talk over me. So what else can a poor boy do? Maybe someone will like me around the same time we get a new president. But until then..."All I've got is a photography..."


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: Jeri
Date: 29 Nov 00 - 11:11 AM

Mooh, there's a warning by a JoeClone in that message. The link only messes up people's computers if they click on it. (No, I haven't tried it. I'm not curious enough, and I hate pop-up windows...so to speak.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: SINSULL
Date: 29 Nov 00 - 11:49 AM

Midchuck,
Not all women in porn. Just the films my son had. They were imported from from Eastern Europe. The women were emaciated, obviously drugged, covered with bruises. Nasty business.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: mousethief
Date: 29 Nov 00 - 12:14 PM

Whistle Stop, good call. I'd far rather my teenagers watch a movie with nudity and sex than with people getting blown up. Nudity and sex are normal and natural parts of life, which they will discover and enjoy as they grow up. Killing and destruction are not and should not be.

Alex


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: Willie-O
Date: 29 Nov 00 - 12:33 PM

Guess we've all succumbed to the lure of curiosity now and then...somewhere there must be erotic material on the net and elsewhere that isn't all:
  • dishonest ("free" indeed!") and clearly designed for profit-making to the exclusion of any other value
  • downright hostile to women
  • depersonalized--closeups of sexual organs colliding, without faces
  • completely lacking in playfulness
  • moronic
  • aggressively coded, as with the "Vicki" example, and disrespectful of your future privacy
  • linked to a bunch of pages featuring "teen sluts", "horny Asian babes" and more like that...
  • ....well, I needn't go on.
...if it is out there, I've given up looking. It's not the theory that bothers me, it's the reality.

W-O


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: GUEST,Matt
Date: 29 Nov 00 - 12:42 PM

Willie, it's out there, as Mulder would say.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: GUEST,Fibula Mattock
Date: 29 Nov 00 - 12:57 PM

Perhaps we should actually thank the porn industry for technical development on the Internet, as they're the ones who came up with streaming video and other lucrative methods which pushed technology forwards and kept creating new and better software due to demand...


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: Willie-O
Date: 29 Nov 00 - 01:15 PM

One could also thank Dow Chemical and Gen Wm Westmoreland for their contributions to herbicide technology...I think not. It's a video world, they're going to improve the net's capabilities to deliver it with or without porn.

So, Matt, if it is there, where's the blue clicky? Like I said, I'm not going looking.

W-O


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: Bat Goddess
Date: 29 Nov 00 - 02:11 PM

Just an added thought, I think the I.W.W. (yes, they're still around) is the only organization actively unionizing "sex workers," who deserve fair and safe working conditions just like everyone else.

Yay, Wobblies! (Although "Workers of the world, unite" might need to be rephrased in this instance.)

Bat Goddess


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: Mooh
Date: 29 Nov 00 - 02:20 PM

Jeri, I know, fire is hot, don't touch. Ouch! Don't touch. Ouch! Don't touch. Ouch!...I just didn't think it would be THAT hot. Mooh.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: Jeri
Date: 29 Nov 00 - 03:15 PM

Mooh, it's the Pandora's Box thing...not THAT box, guys. You see something that says don't lick...click this, and you gotta click it. I'm just too paranoid about inter..internet, er - going to somebody's website and getting probed in ways I don't wish to be probed and possibly getting infected by something. Gotta take care of that hard drive.

Willie-O, "closeups of sexual organs colliding, without faces" ??? If they HAD faces, it would be friendlier, but definitely weird. I agree with what you said though.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: Thyme2dream
Date: 29 Nov 00 - 03:36 PM

In the middle of all of this fascinating discussion, Mole said something which sang out loud and clear in my spirit..."The theft of innocence is always wrong".

I fought long and hard when I was a teenager to stay innocent as long as I could...even naive if you will. I didn't grow up in a moralistic household, so I can't really say that it was parental influence-but at that time in my life I was not ready for all the images that the evolving culture was throwing at me in school, in films, and even to some extent on TV. I count myself fortunate that I was able to steer clear of a lot of the influences that tried so aggresively to rob me of my innocence. I was able to explore the passionate side of my nature at my own pace, with out being forced or coerced into somthing I wasn't ready for because I made such an effort to be a "prude". In many ways, I think I am a lot more well adjusted than many of my friends who used to tease me about being a prude all the time.

To me,Porn is not 'wrong' when an adult (or probably even a teenager who's curious) seeks out a video or a website or magazine...I agree that for some folks it's a very healthy release, and for couples a fun way to spice up an evening. It's when its in your face (yeah like Vickie, but I didn't click!)and you can't get rid of it...or when it's a challenge or a threat, like so often happens in "peer pressure" situations. Much of the porn industry relys on FORCING the issue, getting people hooked on it and working that addiction for all it's worth. That is when it becomes wrong in my eyes...When I walk into a conveience store with my boys and they are embarrased and uncomfortable because of the rack of porn right next to the checkout stand. They have a right not to see it if they so choose...at least not with mum around (Im not THAT naive!)

One other question this whole subject brings up in my mind...maybe we are so 'obsessed' with sex as a society because there are deeper spiritual forces at work within our sexual natures than just the obvious physical gratification. There are many philosophies, Christianity included, that are very adamant about sex not being merely a physical, but also a spiritual joining--that sex influences a person on many levels--even just the "cheap" variety. I really think this maybe true, and that it is as real as the law of gravity..which we can't see, may not understand, but affects us every day nonetheless. Just a ponderment, but I believe there is more to it than meets the eye (pardon the pun)!


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: Thyme2dream
Date: 29 Nov 00 - 03:47 PM

Oh..BTW, Matt, you're making me cry again...:-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: Seth
Date: 29 Nov 00 - 03:48 PM

Someone said that the difference between erotica and pornography is lighting. If you have images that look like bad polaroids with ( by miidle class standards) unattractive people and cheap settings, that's porn. If the lighting is well done, that's erotica. If the lighting is really well done, that's erotic art. Who knows what deals are negotiated before the cameras start rolling, either with porn or with anything else. Having had most of my education courtesy of the Sisters of Saint Joseph, I've had an interest in porn most of my life. I like the net because there are many, many choices available, from the tackiest to the most abstractly elegant. There are several sites and information sites run by women with honest and often funny takes on sex and sexuality. I used this to set up a non-pornographic sex information file for my kids, which they can use anytime they want.The only place I have ever seen images of children as sexual objects was in one shop in Amsterdam, where it was quite openly displayed. On the scale of evils of this century,even if you thought it was wrong, it would have to rank pretty far down the list. Cheers Seth from China


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Subject: NO WAY!!!
From: Clinton Hammond2
Date: 29 Nov 00 - 04:34 PM

"I'm just a regular Joe with a regular job
I'm your average white suburbanite slob
I like football and porno and books about war
I've got an average house with a nice hardwood floor
My wife and my job, my kids and my car
My feet on my table, and a cuban cigar"

---Dennis Leary---

And well... If it's good enough for Mulder, It's good enough for me...

;-)


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: Naemanson
Date: 29 Nov 00 - 05:15 PM

Thyme, you are right about Mole's point. I have worked hard to let my children enjoy their childhood. It may be because I can enjoy a second childhood myself through them. Or it just may be that I want to be sure they have the opportunity to have a clearly defined time in their lives when they were children.

So far it's worked fine.

But they know that when they decide they are ready for sex they should not feel guilty or in any way bad about it. They have been trained in how to avoid disease and pregnancy. These conversations make them very uncomfortable but they are very necessary.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: Bill D
Date: 29 Nov 00 - 06:05 PM

web sites without obnoxious tricks, and with artistic content do exist....

these are safe, and not 'terribly' controversial...(I simply went to a site where people post these, and have already done the work for me...) there were a few 'stronger' things there, but I'd rather not put those in a thread here....(I did NOT make them into clickys on purpose, so that anyone who wants to look must copy and paste them...*smile*...

http://www.debenport.com/
http://www.edeng.net/media/photos/personal/
http://www.artcreate.com/photo/body/
http://www.playground.de/erotik/art/
http://www.playground.de/erotik/art/ward1/
http://www.geocities.com/artecisneros/madonas/as-madonas.html
http://www.fine-art.com/tcubbage/
http://www.geocities.com/erotic_bw/146.jpg (you have to change the # in this one...from 001 to 3 or 4 hundred)
http://www.rapturegallery.com/Rapture_Gallex.htm


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: Wavestar
Date: 29 Nov 00 - 06:47 PM

One of the things I think is important to remember is that, as Thyme2dream hinted, naivete and innocence are not the same thing. As I was going through my teenage years and gaining experience, someone once tried to convince me that I was no longer innocent, that is, I was corrupted, 'guilty' of something dirty. I was horrified and deeply upset until I had a series of realisations regarding this. Firstly, by my own religious standards, I stand innocent in the eyes of God, and who else in this world REALLY matters to judge me? Secondly, innocence was not something I could lose that way. My innocence was a matter of attitude, not a matter of exactly what I had done and hadn't. Did I FEEL dirty, and corrupted? Was I jaded? Had i lost that sense of joy and sacredness in the area of sensuality I was exploring? No. In what way, then, was I not innocent? I was not IGNORANT, not naive. But I commited no crime, my intentions were those of love and mutual, considerate, slow and careful exploration of a natural part of human life. I was not *guilty* of anything. I had only lost my innocence if this person succeeded in making me believe that this innate, spiritual, special and transcendant quality had been lost. Loss of innocence requires disillusionment, pain, cynicism, and anger. I've experienced all of those, and certainly lost some innocence there, but as much of as I can hold onto, by rejecting cruelty, cynicism and not holding onto things that hurt me, I will keep around me like a blanket, or an aura, if you will, protecting me from believing that I am evil and corrupted. Because I'm not.

As hard as it is to believe sometimes, innocence cannot be stolen. People have to be convinced they've lost it, and give it up. That's exactly what degrading pornograhpy, and especially graphic violence do, as well as much of the sex industry, prostitution, etc. Victims, and children, are innocent by nature, no matter what they've seen. Just make sure they know that no one can steal it from them without their consent, as unwitting as that may be.

-Jessica


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: The Shambles
Date: 30 Nov 00 - 02:09 AM

Is guilt the real turn-on?


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: Clinton Hammond2
Date: 30 Nov 00 - 02:44 AM

To the really intelligent, GUILT doesn't even exist...


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: Naemanson
Date: 30 Nov 00 - 06:34 AM

The book I mentioned in my earlier post is Working Sex - An Odyssey Into Our Cultural Underworld by Marianne Macy. The author is a journalist. The book is an expansion of an article she once wrote for New York magazine. It appears to be out of print.

The director I mentioned is Candida Royalle.

Fortunately the Ratbrat Cat is better at finding things than I am. She knocked something over and there was the book.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 30 Nov 00 - 07:52 AM

Well guys, you have helped me make my decision. This porn thread is so popular. Why I only got 3 people posting to my latest music thread on Video Instruction Vs Real Instructors. I must be putting my energies in the wrong place.
How about I become a The Banjo Porn Queen. I'll do it with the banjo and then discuss it in a thread. That should get a better posting response.

:)


Banjo Bonnie Baby


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: Grab
Date: 30 Nov 00 - 08:07 AM

Brings to mind a "Vicar of Dibley" script, roughly as follows:

"
Geraldine: So Jim, what are you going to do on your show?

Jim: Nonononono... I thought I'd have a phone-in talk show?

Geraldine: OK, and what are you going to talk about?

Jim: Nonononono... "Is sex with poodles always wrong?"

Geraldine: I see... And you've found someone to speak on both sides of that argument?

Owen: He certainly has!
"

Sorry, this go right over the head of anyone outside of the UK who's not seen VoD.

Grab.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: Troll
Date: 30 Nov 00 - 08:07 AM

The mind boggles.
GO BONNIE! GO!
Uh, won't the ends of the strings....never mind.

troll


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: Bagpuss
Date: 30 Nov 00 - 08:34 AM

In my moral world something is wrong if it hurts another person and is done knowing that it hurts another person. So if your partner doesn't mind then its ok, but if you insist on using it even though you know your partner gets very upset by it, then you might be doing something wrong.

Also, although some women in the porn industry have made a free choice to be there, many others got there by a very difficult path. Abuse in childhood, leading to prostitution and earning a living by pornography, because they think its all they are worth. If you could see the life history of the person you were looking at, then sometimes you might not get so turned on.

Bagpuss


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: John P
Date: 30 Nov 00 - 08:49 AM

Isn't it strange that movies labeled "For Mature Audiences" so often are really for the immature among us?

John


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: mousethief
Date: 30 Nov 00 - 10:56 AM

I've noticed that, John P. And "Adult" bookstores are for those with an adolescent preoccupation with sex. What a funny language we have.

Alex


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: annamill
Date: 30 Nov 00 - 01:49 PM

and just what is wrong with an adolescent preoccupation with sex, MT?

L.A.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: mousethief
Date: 30 Nov 00 - 02:07 PM

Nothing, in an adolescent.

Alex


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: Penny S.
Date: 30 Nov 00 - 03:49 PM

So glad that it was men who made the point about adults. I hate going into a newsagents and finding Adult Interest and Women's Interest as separate. And neither including Scientific American or New Scientist.

Penny


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: GUEST,Alliekatt
Date: 30 Nov 00 - 04:09 PM

I'm a woman and I love pornography. (I just don't cover it up with the term "romance novel"; you know, the ones with the day-glo pink and violet covers with fleshpots gripping one another on the front. Just give me the pictures and be done with it, thank you.)

Providing it's not the gross or violent sort.

But then I have de-conditioned myself against the sort of social foolishness that makes women looking at pornography an "unladylike" thing. Out of this my own tastes have taken on a "womanly" fashion. I love art porn like the classic bawdy Decameron prints or French illustrations from the 18th century; the Rembrandt prints and the wonderful, humorous paintings by Francois Boucher; the x-rated frescoes of Pompeii and Herculaneum, and the exceedingly sexy sketches of Klimt and Von Zichy.

Few people have seen these works, and most of them are pretty darn detailed; some more so than your standard Hustler close-up shot. But there's something of humanity in them that makes them more than just models spreading it out. It's the joy and the passion that the artists inject into the work. Maybe that's what women are looking for. When we women say we aren't into pornography, maybe what we are saying is that we want something better than pornography.

Spice it up a little. Make it interesting. Let us know that there's more than mechanistic satisfaction at stake.

Alliekatt


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 30 Nov 00 - 04:30 PM

Good point Alliekatt about making the real act 'interesting and spiced up'. For me, it would be make it a meaningful moment of connecting.

If a man were to watch porn while we were having sex it would feel like he was jerking off inside of me.

Little Neo


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: kendall
Date: 30 Nov 00 - 05:46 PM

I'm a flaming liberal..'nuff said.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: Bill D
Date: 30 Nov 00 - 11:13 PM

...so, Alleykat...do you know about Betty Dodson? she has been promoting women's sexuality for 25-30 years...very famous in some circles......she is quite 'explicit'...but did a lot of good in the old 'repressed' days


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: Gary T
Date: 30 Nov 00 - 11:29 PM

Now, surely you all realize that "mature" and "adult" in this context means having reached a certain age, the stuff obviously being legally prohibited to minors. Other meanings of the terms, as used in other contexts, are irrelevant to these labels. What's next, the old "Why do we drive on the parkway and park in the driveway?"

Compliments of your resident curmudgeon.

(Not done with intent to belittle anyone, but come on, it's a lame point. We all know what "adults only" means.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: mousethief
Date: 30 Nov 00 - 11:38 PM

Now that I know that, Gary, what should I do?


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: Gary T
Date: 30 Nov 00 - 11:47 PM

Well, mousethief, you could try to find someone besides me who thinks (or thought) it's important, but that might take way too much time. What to do now?--I dunno, take a drive on the parkway? (BG)

(Nice comeback, by the way--point taken, gentleness appreciated.)


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: mousethief
Date: 01 Dec 00 - 01:24 AM

I put my foot in my mouth bigtime on the thread that was all about those silly "drive on the parkway" type questions. One of my larger gaffes on Mudcat, but minor compared to other online things I've done that I regretted later.

Let me say this, however, to the menfolk: if you need pornography to "get ready" to make love to your lady, consider the possibility that there's something amiss in your relationship with your lady.

But what do I know? I'm young and stupid and in love.

Alex


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: Naemanson
Date: 01 Dec 00 - 06:33 AM

How about those of us who don't have a lady to "get ready" for?


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 01 Dec 00 - 06:58 AM

Naemanson, it might me an idea to fantasize about the lady you would love to 'get ready' for. I find if the imagination is not used, like exercise & fitness, it atrophies

I really have nothing against porns, really I don't. I just think if you don't have a woman in your life, but you know what type of woman you would want, like anything else we want, it does help to visualize a picture of it. You might find it quite enjoyable to visualize making love to this very special person.

Little Neo


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: Naemanson
Date: 01 Dec 00 - 07:48 AM

Even the imagination, and I have a very active imagination, needs a bit of a jump now and again.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: LR Mole
Date: 01 Dec 00 - 08:15 AM

Gawd, what a gift to open this on a sunny morning and find the matter considered with both intelligence and kindness. As Sondheim said, "Here's to us. Who's like us? Damn few!"


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: John P
Date: 01 Dec 00 - 08:50 AM

Wow, Gary T, you must be a riot to be in a conversation with. Have all of your "live" friends learned not to make quips, asides, or witticisms around you? You said that these were lame points and it's clear you didn't think we were being serious, but the fact is that they weren't points at all. They were jokes. What is more lame -- Alex and I inserting essentially meaningless quips into the conversation, or you taking the time to take us to task for doing so? I'll take levity over curmudgeon any day. I also notice that this has been your entire contribution to this thread, which is not true of Alex or myself. An our jokes were, at least, on topic.

I would be interested in hearing your views on pornography. Or even any good jokes on the subject. Where do you think the line is between pornography and erotica? Alliekatt wrote about loving pornography, but then went on to describe what I would classify as erotica. But I'm having a hard time quantifying what the difference is. Maybe the artistic content? Maybe the ability to engage more of the person than the libido? Any thoughts?

John


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: Gary T
Date: 01 Dec 00 - 10:01 AM

Actually, John, I did take the quips too seriously, but Alex's response made me realize what a pedantic ass I'd been about it. My reply to him was an attempt to acknowledge that and reinsert some levity. And yes, my observation wins the "most lame" award. My apologies.

While pondering the subject reading this thread, I found that your earlier post included many points and observations that I quite agree with.

I think that most males get some enjoyment from seeing naked women. Some (many? most?) women find men's appreciation of pornography hard to understand and relate to, and some find it hurtful to some degree. This attitude, in turn, is difficult for some men to understand and relate to.

Is liking pornography wrong? In general, I don't believe so, I think it's rather natural. Some forms of it I find rather scary--there's a big difference between Playboy and some of the other stuff out there. I don't know how much of a problem (if any) that poses.

Perhaps a more pertinent question would be "Is using pornography wrong?" I wouldn't say it's inherently wrong, but if it affects one's ability to have a normal meaningful sexual relationship, or it causes hurt to those one loves, something is wrong.

The dictionary definitions of pornography and erotica are pretty similar. I think most of us perceive erotica to have an element of class lacking in "ordinary" porn. As to where the lines are between erotica, everyday pornography, and disgusting filth, I think that's an area where if you ask ten people, you get eleven different answers. It might be impossible to provide a definition that is universally or even widely agreed upon.

Regard, Gary


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: Bill D
Date: 01 Dec 00 - 01:08 PM

...and when we've finished sorting out whether porn(and what kind) is good or bad, we can go on and decide what 'folk music' REALLY is, whether abortion is ever allowable, whether liberals or conservatives should run government, whether to allow prayer at public events, who should govern Northern Ireland, whether PCs are better than MACs, whether children should ever be spanked..........and the BIG one.....

what is the BEST way to cook barbeque!


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: GUEST,Matt_R
Date: 01 Dec 00 - 01:14 PM

PREACH ON BROTHER BRETT!


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: Gary T
Date: 01 Dec 00 - 01:20 PM

Uh, Bill, shouldn't that be "the ONLY way to cook barbeque?"


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: Naemanson
Date: 01 Dec 00 - 02:26 PM

Hey Matt! This is a conversation about porn. You aren't supposed to recognise me as I stand here hiding in the corner in my dirty trench coat with the collar pulled up and the hat brim pulled low. *bg*


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 01 Dec 00 - 02:47 PM

No

(In response to the original question.)

Vote early, vote often.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: John P
Date: 02 Dec 00 - 07:06 AM

Gary T made the point that getting enjoyment from looking at naked women is rather natural for men. I've always assumed that to be true, since in my experience it is so universal. Most people I know assume that sexual response to visual cues is hardwired into men's brains. "I like you in that nightie and I've got the genetic code to prove it!" Does anyone know if it really is a hardwiring thing? Do men in other cultures around the world get the same kick out of looking that we descendants of the Victorians do?

If it is hardwired into out brains, why do so many women get upset about the fact that their men like to look? What's the point of being upset about something that is a normal part of being?

John


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Dec 00 - 07:17 AM

A lot of assumptions are made as to why were are attracted to certain things and the role that these play. Females are usually credited for having a more complicated approach to what is erotic, where men's attractions are thought to be more basic and understandable.

I tend to think, from what I have read in this thread, that it is far more complicated.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: Seth
Date: 02 Dec 00 - 06:50 PM

Well, as someone said, when he saw the men in the theater watching the sex on screen and discreetly masturbating into their hats " What the hell do they do with those hats when the film is over?" Whatever they do, it's as wrong as wrong can be!

Seth from China


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Dec 00 - 07:50 PM

Evolution spent millions of years making SURE that male animals would have strong reactions to female animals...and for many millions of years, the male with the strongest, pushiest response was allowed to breed.

We are barely a few thousand (or hundred, depending on who you talk to) years into expecting males to stop, think and respect in many aspects of the process...the genes that say "react" are still around, but society says "slow down and listen and don't be so greedy"

'taint easy...but we'd better try


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: DanMulligan
Date: 03 Dec 00 - 05:47 PM

I recently saw a show on the learning channel in which researchers claimed that women are just as stimulted by visual erotica as men.

I believe that it is true i think that they probably "filter" it differently than men

let's face it ...watching people getting it on is just plain fun....whether you are male or female.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Dec 00 - 07:31 AM

"let's face it ...watching people getting it on is just plain fun....whether you are male or female".

I do know what you are meaning to say but, is it also "fun" to see people "getting it on" with animals and children?

Dan this is what I mean about it being a mater of taste. I think that the whole thing is very complicated and most assumptions we make about others tastes will be wrong. Actually doing it is fun, but I can honestly say that I do not find watching other people "getting it on" to be "fun".

It may be fun, to the extent that I find the sex act in general to be more comical than the life or death, Olympic style event it is usually portrayed in porn, maybe it's just the way I do it? Depictions of these scenes, I may find interesting, if I come across them, but do not hold my attention for very long and I would not seek them out.

I do enjoy looking at the variations of the female body.

I could assume from the fact that I feel this way, that others may also, but I may be the only person in the world that does feel like this. A policeman friend of ours had a saying that "assumptions are the mother of all F***-ups".


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: Grab
Date: 04 Dec 00 - 09:11 AM

Shambles, I originally misread that as "chicken", which would be strange to say the least, not to mention the risk of getting pecked in unpleasant places...

Grab.


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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
From: Gary T
Date: 04 Dec 00 - 12:40 PM

Reminds me of the definition--doing it with a feather is kinky, doing it with the whole chicken is perverted. (G)


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This Thread Is Closed.


Mudcat time: 16 September 6:41 AM EDT

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