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BS: Is liking pornography wrong?
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: GUEST,Fibula Mattock Date: 29 Nov 00 - 12:57 PM Perhaps we should actually thank the porn industry for technical development on the Internet, as they're the ones who came up with streaming video and other lucrative methods which pushed technology forwards and kept creating new and better software due to demand... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: GUEST,Matt Date: 29 Nov 00 - 12:42 PM Willie, it's out there, as Mulder would say. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: Willie-O Date: 29 Nov 00 - 12:33 PM Guess we've all succumbed to the lure of curiosity now and then...somewhere there must be erotic material on the net and elsewhere that isn't all:
W-O
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: mousethief Date: 29 Nov 00 - 12:14 PM Whistle Stop, good call. I'd far rather my teenagers watch a movie with nudity and sex than with people getting blown up. Nudity and sex are normal and natural parts of life, which they will discover and enjoy as they grow up. Killing and destruction are not and should not be. Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: SINSULL Date: 29 Nov 00 - 11:49 AM Midchuck, Not all women in porn. Just the films my son had. They were imported from from Eastern Europe. The women were emaciated, obviously drugged, covered with bruises. Nasty business. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: Jeri Date: 29 Nov 00 - 11:11 AM Mooh, there's a warning by a JoeClone in that message. The link only messes up people's computers if they click on it. (No, I haven't tried it. I'm not curious enough, and I hate pop-up windows...so to speak.) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: GUEST,Matt Date: 29 Nov 00 - 11:02 AM Yes, some havarti, please. No really, it's the truth! I don't give me that "just sint to them" malarky. I tried...they talk over me. So what else can a poor boy do? Maybe someone will like me around the same time we get a new president. But until then..."All I've got is a photography..." |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: Mooh Date: 29 Nov 00 - 10:57 AM When I clicked on Guest Vicki's link I was repeatedly assaulted by unwanted images and advertising, ending with an ad which eclipsed my whole screen and the only way I could get out was to shut down my computer. That's what I get for being a smartass? Maybe if I'm not the only victim the mayor of Mudcatville could intercede and erase the link? Still alive and well. Mooh. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: harpgirl Date: 29 Nov 00 - 10:51 AM ...Mrs. Duck, you made me laugh out loud! Madam Duck, indeed! Hey Mattie...would you like some cheese with that whine? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: radriano Date: 29 Nov 00 - 10:51 AM As has been noted in many of the other postings to this thread, there are many different kinds of pornography. I find some pornography enjoyable - it certainly is safe sex these days. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: Naemanson Date: 29 Nov 00 - 10:30 AM Yes, let us consider that the subject of porn is the portrayal of sex between two adult humans. With that out of the way let's go on to other comments made above. There are comments about people in pornography being forced into that situation. That MAY have been the case in the past but no longer today. There is a book, now out of print apparently, called Working Sex. I own a copy but cannot find it just now so what follows may appear a little vague. I'll keep looking. The author is a journalist who wrote a column on the sex trade in her city. As a result she was bombarded with more detail than she needed so she wrote the book to encompass more than prostitution. She has included pornograhic films, strippers, dial-a-sex lines and other forms of the trade. She interviewed the various members of the trade from the workers to the managers, camera operators, directors, producers, etc. Sex is now considered by those people to be an honorable trade. In some forms it is a very dangerous trade as well. There is a director, a woman who used to act in porn films, who is a star in the porn film world for producing films with a woman's perspective. I need to find the book to give you more details if they are "desired" but I have not seen any of her films so I cannot judge. The few porn films I have seen are, as described above, only designed to arouse the male libido. People are interesting in their reaction to sex and its portrayal. My sister has made the comment that she would rather have her 5 year old daughter watch a murder on TV than two people having sex. I believe that is because she couldn't deal with the inevitable questions the child would raise. I have seen plenty of similar reactions to sex in other people. The recent circus in Washington over Bill and Monica is a perfect example. They were both consenting adults. In my eyes the only thing wrong with that scenario was that he is a married man. But there were so many people outraged by what had happened that it became the cause celebre for a nation of peeping toms. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: Mooh Date: 29 Nov 00 - 10:26 AM ...oh, but it is blues...Mooh |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: Midchuck Date: 29 Nov 00 - 10:25 AM I was reading some Wiccan stuff on the web and I came to their guideline: "'An it harm no one, do what thou wilt." I don't buy into Wicca much more than I buy into the more established religions, but they certainly have a more rational moral code. Sinsull, what's your basis for saying the women in the porno films/videos/pictures/statues/whatever were involved in it against their will? Children, yes. No one here has argued that point. But I think most of the adult women participants do it because it's easier money than running a checkout at Wal-mart - and more interesting for some, though many of them appear to be trying to hide boredom. Peter. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: Mooh Date: 29 Nov 00 - 10:24 AM You mean, like, The Bare Naked Ladies? But is it folk? |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: Bat Goddess Date: 29 Nov 00 - 10:11 AM I think John P. about covered it. I learned about sex from James Bond books (and the odd medical encyclopedia) because my parents certainly couldn't talk to me about what should be a normal part of growing up. My mother thought I was a virgin (and pregnant; you figure it out) when I got married. I hadn't the heart to tell her I was neither. Curmudgeon and I operated a "gourmet" video shop for several years, specializing in foreign and classic films, and quirky and indie productions. We also carried "gourmet" adult films, mostly vetted by me. There are some good ones out there. I prefer f***k films with plots and humor and perhaps a bit of fantasy. Films like "Take Off" and "Alice In wonderland" and "classics" like "Behind the Green Door" and "Autobiography of a Flea." We rented a lot to couples and women. Cut to the chase: I don't think visual eroticism appeals to most women, but we can enjoy interesting depictions of eroticism as long as it doesn't involve damaging behavior, especially in the company of someone we care about. Bat Goddess |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: Jeri Date: 29 Nov 00 - 09:54 AM Hypothetical dialogue" "I don't think you should look at that." "Why not?" "Well, it's dirty." "It looks like people having fun." "Yes, but it's exploiting people!" "Well, the actors got paid, and nobody made them do that. Movies that make you cry are exploiting viewers just as much. These make you horny. You wanna talk exploitive? Let's talk advertising." "But these movies and pictures have sex in them, and sex should be private. It's a subject that should be treated differently than other types of human interaction." "Why?" "Because sex is different. Sex without love is dirty. Sure, the sex drive is just basic human instinct, but in our culture, sex without love is just plain wrong. Sex should be sacred, like love." "You've just explained why I like the naughty stuff so much." Interesting that (I believe) in our culture(s), sex is treated so differently than other bits of human nature, that pornography is both abhored and sought after. I believe if there were less of a taboo, nobody would be complaining about porn, and no one would spend an inordinate amount of time looking at it, although they might very well still look. Note that I'm not talking about criminal stuff such as kiddie porn, which is just plain evil. Opinion, in case you haven't figured it out: Shame causes more harm than looking at pictures of people having sex. Also, the more "taboo" a society makes a thing, the more fun the secret enjoyment of it is. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: Gervase Date: 29 Nov 00 - 09:31 AM Sorry, Orson Welles never did it for me! Still, if I could have had his voice... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: SINSULL Date: 29 Nov 00 - 09:20 AM I too am bored by any I have seen - usually squirreled away in my son's laundry. What makes teenage boys think you won't find it in the laundry? I had no problem with him watching the stuff but had to make the point that the women in these films did not appear to be there by choice. Drugs, prostitution, poverty appeared to play a role. This was underground, raunchy, made in a local motel porn. I found myself pitying them all. I prefer my own healthy imagination and Orson Welles. See - it works. Now I have you all imagining it. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: LR Mole Date: 29 Nov 00 - 09:06 AM Well-considered thread.Trying to figure out what people respond to is impossible (and ranking which is "better", a game which always seems to prove that the person ranking is at the top of the tasteful list, is generally just ego). Still, honestly, there is something sad to me about these pictures. So many songs not to be sung. The theft of innocence is always wrong.And I'm embarassed by these tags at the bottom of my screen that say FREE PICS...FREE SEX... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: Whistle Stop Date: 29 Nov 00 - 08:50 AM Like a lot of things, it's largely a question of definition. For myself, I am more disturbed by images of violence than by images of healthy sexual relations between consenting adults, and I think the violent stuff is more damaging to my kids than the erotic stuff. I consider the excessively violent movies to be the real pornography; unfortunately, these are pervasive, and pretty much available to people of all ages. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: John P Date: 29 Nov 00 - 08:25 AM Some random thoughts: There is a lot of difference between pornography and erotica. Like most things, the line between the two is a subjective continuum. One of the problems that a lot of people see with pornography is that it tends to objectify women. Women become things to be drooled over, rather than people to be known. I don't know if this has a real effect on real people with their real relationships. Men and women - in general - get turned on in different ways. Most men respond more to visual cues than most women do. I find most pornography boring and stupid, but it gets me aroused anyway. I wish there was more well done, exciting erotica in the world, instead of all the lame and sad porn that doesn't affect any part of the person except the libido. When my father-in-law was asked to sign a petition to place a bill before the legislature outlawing allowing children to see pornography, he said. "Hell no! How do expect them to learn anything?" A woman my wife knows became turned on for a while by an actor on TV. Her husband said, "I don't care who pumps up the tires as long as I get to ride the bike." How is having sex for money in front of a camera any different than having sex for money in a motel room? How about this one -- is prostitution wrong? If our society wasn't sexually sick in the first place, pornography wouldn't be able to find a toe hold. But titilation helps sell things, and being in a position to define morality gives people who like to run other peoples' lives an avenue to do so. Power and money are powerful motivators to keep pornography happening. There are lots of ads on TV that sell things by promising, in essence, that buyng the product make you sexually attractive and cause members of the opposite sex to drool over you. Is this any different than pornography? A difference of degree, certainly, but is there a difference of type? John |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: Gervase Date: 29 Nov 00 - 06:34 AM I can't see anything wrong with pornography per se - it's such a vast field; from Greek vases via the lubricious works of Rembrandt and Turner to the cheesey joyless stills and videos of today. Human beings have always been fond of the erotic, and that's a healthy thing. Most people, however, would object to pornography which was, as Morticia said, abusive or exploitative. There's the rub (as it were); a heck of a lot of pornography these days is abusive or exploitative. Even "straight" porn tends to be made and distributed b fairly dodgy characters (in the UK at least), and having known some people on the fringes of the skin trade, I can say that many of them feel that participation in the hardcore porn industry (as opposed to the old-fashioned 'glamour' side of things) is little removed from pornography and few of them feel happy at having done it. Maybe that's the reason for one of the biggest turn-offs with modern pornography - everyone looks either so darned artificial or just plain bloody miserable. If your sexual imaginiation relied on pornography to fire it up, it would be a terribly joyless (and lonely) business!. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: Mrs.Duck Date: 29 Nov 00 - 06:26 AM Matt I don't believe women take no notice of you. You want to get yourself over here and we'll find you a few!!And no, I haven't suddenly become Madam Duck! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: The Shambles Date: 29 Nov 00 - 06:25 AM I understand the word pornography. I know it exists. I have more of a problem with the word wrong. In truth pornography is neither right or wrong, it just is.
Like most things it is a matter of personal taste. What makes one person feel good, makes anther feel bad. Most people, I would suggest, are initially mildly curious but pretty much unmoved, one way of the other.
That it is the huge industry it is today, is mainly because society has told us that it is wrong. Is guilt itself, the biggest turn-on? It is most probably at that moment, that what some of us may call erotica becomes pornography. That is not to say that there are certainly things happening to people, caught up in that industry, that are not a serious cause for concern.
The main attraction of it, to the consumer, is that it is 'forbidden fruit'. The best thing about pornography on the internet, is that it has demonstrated very clearly that pornography is extremely boring, when it is so easy to come by. Let our children see what 'adults' really get up to. I would suggest that we do much more harm to our children by our hypocrisy than by exposing them to the reality. Who are we protecting, them or us?
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: Little Neophyte Date: 29 Nov 00 - 06:10 AM I totally get you Harpgirl. I forgot how young, healthy, beautiful, socially skilled, and loving I am. :) I can see how porn fits in. I guess I was just thinking not in my bedroom. Why watch a film when you can have the real McCoy. :)I must admit I was taking my time trying to find my way out of Vicky's recommended site. Bonnie Baby |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: Matt_R Date: 28 Nov 00 - 11:01 PM Right on harpgirl! Hey, when women don't even acknowledge your presence, you gotta make do SOMEHOW. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: Jon Freeman Date: 28 Nov 00 - 10:27 PM I am pretty much with Mousthief on this one as most of it down to an idividuals set of morals which can involve religion or belief systems. On a personal level, regardless of whether it is right by Christian (my beliefs) standards or not, I will vist a porn site once in a while maybe once a month but most of the time, it does little for me - I guess I prefer my own imagination... Jon |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: Bill D Date: 28 Nov 00 - 10:25 PM does anyone remember the John Hartford song from 20+years ago..."Have Mercy on My Poor Old Prurient Intrest"? somewhere I have it on an old tape... |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: DonMeixner Date: 28 Nov 00 - 10:11 PM Guest Short and easy answer: No Long and difficult answer: How to separate the Erotic from the Obscene to please everyones prurient interest. Don |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: harpgirl Date: 28 Nov 00 - 10:07 PM ...hey Bon-Bon...think about this...for many citizens, visual and aural erotica is their only sexual outlet. Unequal access to loving sexual partners is still a reality in the 21st century. Moreover, it is a kind of safe sex that is a far healthier outlet than risking one's health and welfare in the sex trades or with one night stands. I support the use of sexual erotica between consenting adults and of consenting adults. And erotica is a necessity for many older adults as an aid to foreplay. It truly is the "poor man's viagra." Not all of us are young, healthy, beautiful, socially skilled, and in loving relationships. I do agree that any guy who liked his mags better than me would get the boot! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: Bill D Date: 28 Nov 00 - 09:52 PM most men, I think, 'filter' porn in their minds...so that even a bad image can trigger a generalized response....I have become MUCH more selective in my ...ahem... senior years about what might be a really erotic image. 40 years ago, silly stereotypes ruled!......(Remember, many thousands of years of evolution have developed us so that men who are easily and quickly aroused reproduce more often! Look at what passed for porn in the Victorian era!) I think that women 'tend' to judge images more, much as they would look at the total effect of how someone is dressed...and reject the images that seem shallow, stupid, or tasteless. It is often true that women, when they bother, do produce classier and more elegant erotica than men.....but men are not always appreciative...*grin*. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: bseed(charleskratz) Date: 28 Nov 00 - 09:45 PM My imagination is fine--but my memory is slipping... Neo's Uncle Seed |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: Little Neophyte Date: 28 Nov 00 - 09:23 PM Jim, I have a great imagination. Little Neo |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: GUEST,FOG (FRIEND OF GNOME) Date: 28 Nov 00 - 09:21 PM At long last an objective measured view on this thread Thank you Jim-you speak for many of us |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: Little Neophyte Date: 28 Nov 00 - 09:20 PM I wish I had read through this entire thread first. That Vicky site took me about 1/2 hour to find my way out of it. I do not have a fireball computer program. That was some site! Well I figure there is nothing wrong with pornography, but I wouldn't want a partner who thought that was his idea of foreplay. I can not get into pornography. It feels so unreal and meaningless. If I had a partner who enjoyed watching it often, yes it would bother me. Little Neo |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: Jim Dixon Date: 28 Nov 00 - 08:17 PM There is NOTHING wrong with pornography. (Except in a few obvious cases that have been mentioned already.) The trouble is, in the public mind, ALL pornography gets tarred with the same brush as the harmful stuff. Anti-pornography zealots invariably trot out the WORST examples they can find and try to give the impression that all pornography is like that. Pornography NEEDN'T BE degrading to women. Pornography NEEDN'T involve coercion, violence, children, or non-consenting adults. People who use pornography are NOT inclined to be loners, losers, or criminals. Let's be blunt: people use pornography as an aid to getting themselves (or their partners) turned on. I would bet that the viewing of pornography is nearly always a prelude to either masturbation or sex with a partner. Pornography is the poor man's Viagra. If there is nothing wrong with using Viagra then there is nothing wrong with using pornography, either. People probably wouldn't need pornography if they had better memories or better imagination. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: DanMulligan Date: 28 Nov 00 - 07:52 PM wow.....i always wanted a woman with 3,340 adult films. Bill D.- good answer Morticia- women DO write some porn screenplays. I'll pick some up...you bring the popcorn. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: Troll Date: 28 Nov 00 - 07:52 PM Thats the problem with most porn. It is the joyless marketing of sex and is, for the most part, badly done and-above all else- boring. Morality aside, it's a pretty shallow and lonely way to spend ones time. troll |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: Bill D Date: 28 Nov 00 - 07:47 PM Jim...you need a firewall program which won't allow pages like that to grab your computer....that picture was probably part of an 'agressive' porn marketing page..javascripts galore!!! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: Jim Dixon Date: 28 Nov 00 - 07:42 PM DON'T CLICK on GUEST,Vicki's link above. I did, and it did wierd things to my browser, like opening lots of extra windows and making it impossible to get back to Mudcat. I had to close ALL my windows and start over. And the pictures aren't even interesting. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: Bill D Date: 28 Nov 00 - 07:41 PM (I have no problem with an older woman who wants to be naked...but I have a LOT of disdain for 'vicki' who has a lousy sense of humor...) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: Wavestar Date: 28 Nov 00 - 07:41 PM Sorry, Alex, I misread, and didn't see your explanation until after I posted (cross posting and all.) umm. Gee, thanks, GUEST,Vicki. That answers ALL our questions. |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: Bill D Date: 28 Nov 00 - 07:36 PM *sigh*....and there are people with no judgement EVERYWHERE! |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: GUEST,Vicki Date: 28 Nov 00 - 07:21 PM Click here for a nice picture of me. WARNING: you might want to read the rest of this thread before you click that link. --JoeClone |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: Bill D Date: 28 Nov 00 - 07:05 PM porn..(or 'erotica') comes in 1000 varieties, just like music...some is good, some is stupid, some is artistic, some is tasteless...and 'some' is *WRONG* (children who don't comprehend what it is about should NEVER be used that way!!!!)....people come in just as many varieties, and you just have to decide whether you like some of it...(it sure is available now to anyone with a computer...in ANY form!) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: mousethief Date: 28 Nov 00 - 07:03 PM There. Morticia has given a "source" (if you will) of morality that is not church-based. Her rule appears to be if something is not coercive, and serves a purpose, then it is okay (I'm sure she would also add harmful, of which coercive is a type, I think). And so, according to her worldview, it is NOT wrong. This is the sort of thing I was talking about in my first post. Whether it's wrong or not depends on your worldview, in particular your "rules" (if you will) for determining what is right or wrong. And different people have different such "rules". I'll let it rest now. (Unless I'm attacked or challenged again.) Alex |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: Ebbie Date: 28 Nov 00 - 06:58 PM Jim Dixon- actually I agree! :) I did mean it as an example of button pushing that makes me feel bad. Ebbie |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: Zebedee Date: 28 Nov 00 - 06:55 PM Certainly, almost all heterosexual men enjoy looking at scantily clad (or not at all clad) women I can't see that that will ever change. I think the danger occurs when the man sees the more (for a better word) 'obscure' stuff as being normal, and wonders why his wife / girlfriend isn't interested. Ed Hoping he's made his point without being gratuatous |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: Morticia Date: 28 Nov 00 - 06:55 PM Easy question for me.......if it isn't exploitation, i.e. not children or people who are coerced into it in some way, and it serves a function.......( whatever that may be, and I guess it's different for each person) how can it possibly be 'wrong' or harmful? I have had , what I will be the first to admit, is very limited exposure and will say that from a female point of view, it seemed rather dull and stilted and not especially exciting but if women wrote the screenplays, I bet it would be more interesting.( Oh boy, bet that sets the cat anongst the pidgeons!) |
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Subject: RE: BS: Is liking pornography wrong? From: bill\sables Date: 28 Nov 00 - 06:53 PM When the movie "Full Monty" was released, which is about a group of male stripers, my Mother in Law went to see it three times. I said ,as a wind up, that she was a dirty old woman which she denied. But if the movie had been about a group of girls striping and I had seen it three times she would have been the first to call me a dirty old man. You just can't win. Bill |
