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Breeze:Do we like dead people b/c of ...

MichaelAnthony 02 Dec 00 - 01:18 PM
Ebbie 02 Dec 00 - 01:41 PM
Brendy 02 Dec 00 - 01:44 PM
The Shambles 02 Dec 00 - 01:46 PM
Ebbie 02 Dec 00 - 02:22 PM
Brendy 02 Dec 00 - 02:47 PM
Ebbie 02 Dec 00 - 02:52 PM
Brendy 02 Dec 00 - 02:58 PM
catspaw49 02 Dec 00 - 03:59 PM
MichaelAnthony 02 Dec 00 - 04:25 PM
The Shambles 02 Dec 00 - 04:42 PM
Zebedee 02 Dec 00 - 04:50 PM
Mickey191 02 Dec 00 - 04:58 PM
MichaelAnthony 02 Dec 00 - 05:04 PM
Mickey191 02 Dec 00 - 05:09 PM
Mickey191 02 Dec 00 - 05:13 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Dec 00 - 05:17 PM
CarolC 02 Dec 00 - 05:19 PM
Ebbie 02 Dec 00 - 05:30 PM
Brendy 02 Dec 00 - 05:55 PM
CarolC 02 Dec 00 - 06:07 PM
Brendy 02 Dec 00 - 06:09 PM
CarolC 02 Dec 00 - 06:17 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Dec 00 - 06:32 PM
Brendy 02 Dec 00 - 06:38 PM
Bill D 02 Dec 00 - 06:43 PM
Brendy 02 Dec 00 - 06:44 PM
Brendy 02 Dec 00 - 06:49 PM
Ebbie 02 Dec 00 - 06:59 PM
Brendy 02 Dec 00 - 07:11 PM
McGrath of Harlow 02 Dec 00 - 07:32 PM
Bill D 02 Dec 00 - 07:32 PM
Brendy 02 Dec 00 - 07:37 PM
The Shambles 02 Dec 00 - 08:01 PM
Brendy 02 Dec 00 - 08:23 PM
MichaelAnthony 02 Dec 00 - 10:03 PM
catspaw49 02 Dec 00 - 10:15 PM
Jeri 02 Dec 00 - 10:21 PM
MichaelAnthony 02 Dec 00 - 10:32 PM
The Shambles 03 Dec 00 - 07:28 AM
GUEST,Art Thieme 03 Dec 00 - 06:39 PM
McGrath of Harlow 03 Dec 00 - 07:55 PM
The Shambles 04 Dec 00 - 02:25 AM
Jimmy C 04 Dec 00 - 01:48 PM
Mrrzy 05 Dec 00 - 09:17 AM
mousethief 05 Dec 00 - 12:52 PM
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Subject: Breeze:Do we like dead people b/c of ...
From: MichaelAnthony
Date: 02 Dec 00 - 01:18 PM

Because we're no longer threatened by their ego? Or what is it?


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Subject: RE: Breeze:Do we like dead people b/c of ...
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Dec 00 - 01:41 PM

They can't hit back.

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: Breeze:Do we like dead people b/c of ...
From: Brendy
Date: 02 Dec 00 - 01:44 PM

Don't be so sure.

B.


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Subject: RE: Breeze:Do we like dead people b/c of ...
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Dec 00 - 01:46 PM

Do the good die young?.

A dead thread can.


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Subject: RE: Breeze:Do we like dead people b/c of ...
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Dec 00 - 02:22 PM

OK, Brendy- let's head for the ghost threads! And of course, I was being facetious.

In that link, The Shambles, I found it interesting that Rick said that if only Presley had died young, etc, (he was 42) and someone else said that if Kate Wolf had not died young, etc, (I believe she was 46). Evidently our perceptions vary.

Eb


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Subject: RE: Breeze:Do we like dead people b/c of ...
From: Brendy
Date: 02 Dec 00 - 02:47 PM

Nah, I know Ebbie...but seriously, if someone who I think was an asshole when he/she was alive; apart from being able to empathise with the loss their family is going through, I don't tend to change my opinion of them when they depart these mortal chains.

However. As far as 'liking dead people' in general, is concerned. isn't that a contradiction in terms? Or a bit of faecesness in itself?

B.


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Subject: RE: Breeze:Do we like dead people b/c of ...
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Dec 00 - 02:52 PM

Oh, Brendy, I misunderstood- I thought you were saying 'don't be too sure they can't hit back'! Talk about perceptions.

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: Breeze:Do we like dead people b/c of ...
From: Brendy
Date: 02 Dec 00 - 02:58 PM

I was.

B


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Subject: RE: Breeze:Do we like dead people b/c of ...
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 Dec 00 - 03:59 PM

I am older than a lot of famous dead guys.
Lots of famous dead guys
Never got to be as old as me.
---------Lines from a humorous song by Heywood Banks

Not exactly relevant, but I love Heywood and his warped songs.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Breeze:Do we like dead people b/c of ...
From: MichaelAnthony
Date: 02 Dec 00 - 04:25 PM

I suppose one obvious reason is now that their output has stopped (except those they influence), their prior work can become more valuable...as in the case of a painter.

I read the thread linked above and enjoyed it...but I'm still hoping for more comments.


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Subject: RE: Breeze:Do we like dead people b/c of ...
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Dec 00 - 04:42 PM

I used to watch Sandy Denny and Nick Drake play alongside fine musicians who have survived them. These latter musicians have been performing all these years and maybe producing work that is sometimes patchy. They also look as old as I do.

It seems to be easier to forgive the ones that died young for any imperfections. It is probably also easier to sing certain songs when you appear to be young.

I suppose in some ways, if it the living musicians ego, that is responsible for these imperfections and uneven quality, then maybe it is because we no longer have to deal with the egos of the dead ones, that make us forgive them easier?


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Subject: RE: Breeze:Do we like dead people b/c of ...
From: Zebedee
Date: 02 Dec 00 - 04:50 PM

Shambles,

Who did you see Nick Drake play with?

I'd thought that the few gigs that he did were solo. Obviously I'm wrong. I'd be interested to hear more.

Thanks

Ed


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Subject: RE: Breeze:Do we like dead people b/c of ...
From: Mickey191
Date: 02 Dec 00 - 04:58 PM

Some people do get sanctified when they shuffle off this mortal coil, I've never understood it. A woman I met on the telephone told me the strangest story about her dead lover. His family was fighting over how and where he was to be buried and she was totally disconsolate. They had always enjoyed reading poetry together, so she was able, somehow,to gain entrance to the hospital cold room where the remains are kept. For three nights she pulled out the drawer and for one hour read him the poems he so loved.I'm still not over that revalation. It's kind of a peculiar phrase-do we like dead people? She evidently did. Slainte, Mickey191 (not Guest)


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Subject: RE: Breeze:Do we like dead people b/c of ...
From: MichaelAnthony
Date: 02 Dec 00 - 05:04 PM

Shambles,

Your point about the imperfections about personality or ego was well articulated. It's also possible jealousy enters into it, as well.

I'm don't think you were being literal with "along side with".

MA


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Subject: RE: Breeze:Do we like dead people b/c of ...
From: Mickey191
Date: 02 Dec 00 - 05:09 PM

Some people do get sanctified when they shuffle off this mortal coil, I've never understood it. A woman I met on the telephone told me the strangest story about her dead lover. His family was fighting over how and where he was to be buried and she was totally disconsolate. They had always enjoyed reading poetry together, so she was able, somehow,to gain entrance to the hospital cold room where the remains are kept. For three nights she pulled out the drawer and for one hour read him the poems he so loved.I'm still not over that revalation. It's kind of a peculiar phrase-do we like dead people? She evidently did. Slainte, Mickey191


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Subject: RE: Breeze:Do we like dead people b/c of ...
From: Mickey191
Date: 02 Dec 00 - 05:13 PM

Sorry.


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Subject: RE: Breeze:Do we like dead people b/c of ...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Dec 00 - 05:17 PM

"faecesness" - now that is a valuable addition to the language Brendy. (And glad to see you here once more) A better way of spelling the type of humour where people act like something is funny without having identified anything funny about itr, as a way of puttig it down. Which is definitely thread drift.not about about dead people.

As for dead people, as the saying goes "de mortuis nihil nisi bunkum".

There've been people who've irritated you when they were alive, and when they're dead, you might feel you had no call to feel so irritated, and yiou mighty be more aware of their good points. But there are also people you feel would be no loss at all, and when they are dead there's no reason to change that view.

And of course that doesn't mean you have to hate them. Never any point in that. Total waste of energy.


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Subject: RE: Breeze:Do we like dead people b/c of ...
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Dec 00 - 05:19 PM

Sometimes they're just nicer after they die.


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Subject: RE: Breeze:Do we like dead people b/c of ...
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Dec 00 - 05:30 PM

Carol C- LOL!

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: Breeze:Do we like dead people b/c of ...
From: Brendy
Date: 02 Dec 00 - 05:55 PM

"And of course that doesn't mean you have to hate them. Never any point in that. Total waste of energy."

A very poignant statement, there, Kevin. Disliking a person's spirit (which is probably closer to what I meant) is one thing. Depending on which faith, if any, one adheres to, one may argue that the shell we inhabit is only one manifestation of our overall being (having to live within the confines of being born with Original Sin, for instance), and 'enlightenment' is only attained after many such incarnations - much like going through the levels of some all-encompassing computer game in God's big amusement arcade (come in Little Hawk, and help me out on this one!!).

Reading a favourite book to a 'shell' in a mortuary is one person's way of 'communicating' to the departed soul; It is probably the same reasoning that brings us to visit the graves of our relatives, or lay flowers at the scene of someone's death.

But 'Do we like dead people'?

I still think it is an imperfect question. To lessen our attitude towards any given dead person, purely because he/she is dead, and based upon the criteria we 'judged' them by when they were alive, is more than not a little hypocritical, I think.

This, of course, doesn't apply to people you liked when they were alive, whether they died young, or not.

Had a great time over, Kevin, by the way. Got to visit a few graves that certain marching men stopped us from visiting on previous occasions.
My father died in 1993, and it was the first time I was able to vist his grave since I helped lower him down, that, oddly, sunny November day. Him I liked.

However, I wouldn't go visit the (future) graves of the people who prevented me from reciting 'The Cremation of Sam Magee' to Malachy, for all those years.

Maybe on the next level.

B.


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Subject: RE: Breeze:Do we like dead people b/c of ...
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Dec 00 - 06:07 PM

Brendy, it sounds like you are carrying a great burden. If so, I'm sorry for that. (I hope that's not too intrusive. If it is, I apologise.)

Best wishes,

Carol


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Subject: RE: Breeze:Do we like dead people b/c of ...
From: Brendy
Date: 02 Dec 00 - 06:09 PM

What makes you think that, Carol?

B.


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Subject: RE: Breeze:Do we like dead people b/c of ...
From: CarolC
Date: 02 Dec 00 - 06:17 PM

Perhaps I spoke hastily. It sounds like you experienced a lot of hurt when you were prevented from visiting your father's grave for all those years. Having just lost my mother last week, I can imagine how violated you must have felt because of that. On the other hand, we all experience things differently. Maybe it was different for you. Either way, it sure is nice to have you back.

Carol


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Subject: RE: Breeze:Do we like dead people b/c of ...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Dec 00 - 06:32 PM

Of course, it can happen that we change the way we see people as things happen to us and time passes. And having people die on us can be one of the things that happen to us that changes us. It's often that way with relations - it's not all hypocracy what happens at funerals.

Here's a link to a song I wrote about my father. One of a number.

I've just noticed this thread's title - "Breeze". Is this an alternative for BS? If so, it could be an improvement.


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Subject: RE: Breeze:Do we like dead people b/c of ...
From: Brendy
Date: 02 Dec 00 - 06:38 PM

No, it's fair enough statement to make, Carol, but totally wrong, as regards me. Disliking a person (for me), has nothing to do with grudges held, and the like; that only serves to make one vain and bitter, and that leads to burdens and baggage. Neither of which I have, except my tax burden, and stuff I bring on holiday with me *BG*.

I can dislike a person, even intensely dislke one, but resentment never comes into it, even though I have looked the personification of evil in the face, more than once in my life.

This life's too short for that. However I feel we're getting blown about a little, on this breeze.

I have been relieved when certain persons have died. But I'm not sure if that constitutes liking them.

B.


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Subject: RE: Breeze:Do we like dead people b/c of ...
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Dec 00 - 06:43 PM

I somehow feel that Peter Bellamy was confident he'd get more appreciation as a dead legend than a live struggler after fame.


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Subject: RE: Breeze:Do we like dead people b/c of ...
From: Brendy
Date: 02 Dec 00 - 06:44 PM

Nice one Kevin.

B.


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Subject: RE: Breeze:Do we like dead people b/c of ...
From: Brendy
Date: 02 Dec 00 - 06:49 PM

Who's Peter Bellamy?

B.


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Subject: RE: Breeze:Do we like dead people b/c of ...
From: Ebbie
Date: 02 Dec 00 - 06:59 PM

I have been relieved when certain persons have died. But I'm not sure if that constitutes liking them. Funny, Brendy!

McGrath, beautiful song.

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: Breeze:Do we like dead people b/c of ...
From: Brendy
Date: 02 Dec 00 - 07:11 PM

Not really, Ebbie, or rather, it wasn't necessarily meant to be. If you think about it a little more, and figure out what the emotions actually are after someone you have had contact with passes on, it might reveal various things about yourself that you wouldn't have thought were there at all.

Just taking your "They can't hit back." philosophy a stage further.

B.


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Subject: RE: Breeze:Do we like dead people b/c of ...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 02 Dec 00 - 07:32 PM

This was Peter Bellamy Made some great songs, on his own and as part of The Young Tradition. Killed himself, which I don't think which was a career move on his behalf. (That's the kind of thing I had in mind when I was talking about faecesness as a more appropriate spelling for facetiousness...)


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Subject: RE: Breeze:Do we like dead people b/c of ...
From: Bill D
Date: 02 Dec 00 - 07:32 PM

Peter Bellamy...British singer, arranger of Kipling poems to music, performer of 1st order....committed suicide several years ago,,,never seemed to feel that he got proper recognition for the effort he put into his art/craft.


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Subject: RE: Breeze:Do we like dead people b/c of ...
From: Brendy
Date: 02 Dec 00 - 07:37 PM

I knew that...

I did....

Honestly.....

B.


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Subject: RE: Breeze:Do we like dead people b/c of ...
From: The Shambles
Date: 02 Dec 00 - 08:01 PM

I am not too sure, for it was a long time ago but I may have seen Nick Drake play one song with John Martyn. This was when he was doing a guest spot at Les Cousins, on John's night. It would have been only one song as he certainly did usually play alone. Sorry if I gave the wrong impression. by alongside, I meant on the same bill.

I think that when their artists die, it may possibly make life easier and more profitable for their managers and producers.


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Subject: RE: Breeze:Do we like dead people b/c of ...
From: Brendy
Date: 02 Dec 00 - 08:23 PM

"Oh..oh..oh..oh
When I'm dead and gone.
I don't want nobody to mope
beside my grave."

My Last Will and Testicle.

B.


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Subject: RE: Breeze:Do we like dead people b/c of ...
From: MichaelAnthony
Date: 02 Dec 00 - 10:03 PM

An improved and less ambiguous title for this thread would be "Why is it that I sometimes tend to revere artists (that I haven't met) more than living ones?"

Clumsy today, MA


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Subject: RE: Breeze:Do we like dead people b/c of ...
From: catspaw49
Date: 02 Dec 00 - 10:15 PM

Hey M-A.......What's with the "Breeze" thing anyway? I know we kid about the meanings of BS, but BS is BS....and more importantly, Max has a filter setup for filtering out the BS threads for those who don't want to read them or be bothered with seeing them. It will NOT filter "Breeeze" and though it might be cute, eventually its going to be nailed by one of the more serious members around here and we don't need the fight.

Just thought it was worth a mention.

Spaw


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Subject: RE: Breeze:Do we like dead people b/c of ...
From: Jeri
Date: 02 Dec 00 - 10:21 PM

I think the relief can mean a lot of things. Sometimes the person who's died may have caused stress, anger, other bad stuff. Sometimes there's a lot of pain in their lives, as well as yours, and their death really is a relief.

I guess this is as good a place to post this as any. Maybe there's some guilt on the part of those of us left behind, and we're trying to make up for it. Maybe you just wish you could have/would have done something when there alive, and you can't, so you try to make it right after they're dead. I recently went looking for someone I'd corresponded with a few times a couple of years ago. I hadn't seen any messages (newsgroup, not here) from him. I found one small entry on a web page saying he died in 1999.

There were none of the songs he'd written, no eulogy, no other mention of him. I didn't always agree with him, and I doubt we would have been good friends if we'd met. I did disagree with him politely, unlike a few others, and he did the same with me. I never disliked him, but I don't like him any more now that he's dead. I am left feeling sorry that some people treated him badly, even if that happens to everybody. I'll admit his imperfections, but I'd rather remember his good qualities.

So maybe some of it is us wishing we could right past wrongs, and maybe some of it is simply wanting to remember good things, because it makes us feel better.


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Subject: RE: Breeze:Do we like dead people b/c of ...
From: MichaelAnthony
Date: 02 Dec 00 - 10:32 PM

Darn, Spaw, didn't mean to throw in any wrenches into the filter mechanisms. Just didn't like putting those initials in front of the things I post, cause they mean "breeze shooting", not BS.


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Subject: RE: Breeze:Do we like dead people b/c of ...
From: The Shambles
Date: 03 Dec 00 - 07:28 AM

Another thing is that as the book is now closed, we can now trust that the person will not be able to let us down or do us any more harm. We are wary, I think of thinking too well of our living friends and artists, in case they cock-up big time and prove our judgement to be missed placed.


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Subject: RE: Breeze:Do we like dead people b/c of ...
From: GUEST,Art Thieme
Date: 03 Dec 00 - 06:39 PM

At my present age (pushing 60) I've realized that I probably know more dead people than live ones !

Art


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Subject: RE: Breeze:Do we like dead people b/c of ...
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 03 Dec 00 - 07:55 PM

The obituaries are a lot more interesting and relevant these days though aren't they? Provided you don't feature in them yourself.


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Subject: RE: Breeze:Do we like dead people b/c of ...
From: The Shambles
Date: 04 Dec 00 - 02:25 AM

There was that chap who would read the Times Orbituaries in bed , and if his name was not there, he would get up...........


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Subject: RE: Breeze:Do we like dead people b/c of ...
From: Jimmy C
Date: 04 Dec 00 - 01:48 PM

When a death occured in our neighbourhood, it was normal to go and pay your respects, 99.9% of the time the deceased was a fairly decent, average person - nobodys perfect. But I went to one particular wake years ago , only because I liked the widow and was friendly with hers sons. The deceased however had been a real jerk, all his life, drinking, gambling, fooling around with other women etc. Many a time the widow had to depend on charity because this numbskull had drank or gambled away his wages. If she complained to him she usually got a smack on the jaw. One of his sons changed his surname because he hated his father so much. Yet at the wake only nice things were being said about him, how kind he was, how good he was etc. BS - he was a complete waster,I went out to look at the number on the door because I though I was in the wrong house. When a death occurs people seem to lose their memory. I felt sorry for the widow when he was alive, but a certain secret relief when he was gone. I guess feigning sympathy for the family was a lot easier than telling the truth, that they were better off without him./


When I an dead and in my grave
No costly tombstone will I crave
Just lay me down in my native peat
With a jug of punch at my head and feet


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Subject: RE: Breeze:Do we like dead people b/c of ...
From: Mrrzy
Date: 05 Dec 00 - 09:17 AM

Well, unlike bananas, it probably isn't because they have no bones!


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Subject: RE: Breeze:Do we like dead people b/c of ...
From: mousethief
Date: 05 Dec 00 - 12:52 PM

I think the whole point of saying nice things about the dead is to spare the feelings of the living.

As my father before me and so now I
I pause to reflect on the day that I'll die
A few final words will be spoken, I trust
Be as kind as you can, and lie if you must
---Bob Bennett

Alex


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