BS: AND WE HAVE A WINNER part two

Subject: RE: BS: AND WE HAVE A WINNER part two
From: Troll
Date: 19 Dec 00 - 04:38 PM

Skeptic, serious stuff.We'll have to see how it plays out.
As for using information you sent me, I have often stated that I have no ideas of my own. I steal everything I say politically but I only steal from the best.
You, my charity case, are the exception.
But, as I have said before, even a blind pig will find an acorn if it roots long enough, and you found a VERY nice acorn.
For which I thank you.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: AND WE HAVE A WINNER part two
From: InOBU
Date: 19 Dec 00 - 04:34 PM

Well done Sceptic: Funny, an old pal from Lousiana, who lives down the block from me, gets into voiciforus arguments often about Clinton, who he feels should be exicuted for perjury. I have tried to tell him that courts have always concidered there to be a lesser standard for lieing about things which should be private, you sex life for example, and finacial fraud, well, I supose Kim and I are going to get loud over mr. bush however, I expect Kim to expect us to cut Dubblya a break... My my my,
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: AND WE HAVE A WINNER part two
From: Skeptic
Date: 19 Dec 00 - 04:17 PM

Larry,

Sadly, I don't think Bush is an idiot. I know it just looks like the only time he opens his mouth is to change feet but to characterize him as stupid is to underestimate the enemy.

Bush has laid out his agenda fairly clearly. The tax cut (over which he's already at odds with Greenspan), vouchers for public schools that don't do well on standardized test (and no mention of how to deal with learning impaired children. Or without explaining just what jobs require the ability to pass standardized tests as an entry level skill), privatization of social security (which works really well in a growth economy, less so in a recession, but then the bankers and brokers make money either way which may be the point). He was very successful in getting these points across during the campaign, very successful in painting Gore as the villain in the vote count/recount fiasco and his firts two appointments were PR coups. Whether its because he's a puppet for special interests (who aren't at all stupid), its a role he's playing (well) and whether he is the real mastermind, or just knows how to hire competent staff doesn't matter. Dumb? Probably not. Dangerous? Probably so. (Depending on your values. As I've said, he stricts me as the sort of person who would endorse All Capp's satirical observation that "what's good for General Bullmoose is good for the USA". He either doesn't know or doesn't care that it might be bad for a whole lot of people who don't have a net value of 7 figures. I mean, the man thought the checkout scanner in the supermarket was a really cool new idea.

troll, if you're going to pick on the liberals with stuff I send you, I'm taking you off my distribution list.

And then there's this lengthy tidbit.

Lying Under Oath. Bush & Co. Squelch Investigation of Contributor's Funeral Homes In a (so far successful) attempt to stop a scandal, Bush perjured himself under oath, according to the sworn testimony of two of his political allies. The situation is amazingly similar to Clinton's Lewinsky problem: a potentially damaging lawuit arose (see below) that threatened to involve him. Just like Clinton, Bush swore an affidavit that he had no involvement in the case, which got him excused from testifying. And just like Clinton, the affidavit was proven false months later by new evidence. In this case, it's the recent sworn testimony of Robert MacNeil, a Bush appointee, that he had discussed the case with Bush at a fundraiser. This scandal isn't as sexy as Monica's, but perjury is perjury, and this scandal actually involves the governor's job, not his sex life. Texas' state commission on funeral homes (the TFSC) started an investigation of SCI, the world's largest funeral home company (with 3,442 homes, plus 433 cemeteries) after complaints that unlicensed apprenctices were embalming corpses at 2 SCI embalming centers. The commission visited a couple of these, and ended up fining SCI $450,000.

But SCI pulled strings with the commission and with Bush himself. Shortly thereafter, the investigation was shut down and the agency's investigator was fired. She sought to question Bush for her lawsuit, and that's when he swore his admittedly false affidavit. In fact, that affidavit has been proven false twice now.

DETAILS: SCI has long cultivated Bush and his allies. They gave governor Bush $35,000 in the last election and $10K in 1994, gave $100,000 to the George Bush, Sr. library, and hired the ex-president to give a speech last year for $70,000. They also spread money around the Texas legislature and the Texas Attorney General's office.

After the investigation got serious, SCI's boss, Robert Waltrip, called the funeral commission's chairman and told him to "back off." If not, Waltrip said, "I'm going to take this to the governor."

Still, the investigation continued. So Waltrip and his lawyer/lobbyist, Johnnie B. Rogers, went to the governor's office and dropped off a letter demanding a halt to the investigation. Rogers told Newsweek that he and Waltrip were ushered in to see Joe Allbaugh, Bush's chief of staff (who is now Bush's campaign manager.) Rogers goes on to say that Bush Jr. popped his head in and said to Waltrip, "Hey, Bobby, are those people still messing with you?" Waltrip said yeah. Then the governor turned to Rogers and said, "Hey, Johnnie B. Are you taking care of him?" Rogers said "I'm doing my best, Governor."

The problem for Bush is that he swore under oath, in a July 20th 1999 affidavit, that he "had no conversations with [SCI] officials, agents, or represenatives concerning the investigation or any dispute arising from it." If Rogers is telling the truth, than Bush Jr. lied directly under oath. He filed the affidavit in an attempt to avoid testifying in a whistleblower lawsuit concerning this investigation and it's alleged squashing by Bush's administration.

Back in August of 1999, Bush himself admitted that he spoke with Waltrip and Rogers -- in other words, that he lied under oath -- but used Clintonesque denials to claim that it was nothing substantial. Bush told the Associated Press that "It's a 20-second conversation. I had no substantive conversation with the guy. Twenty seconds. That's hardly enough time to even say hello, much less sit down and have a substantive discussion. All I know is it lasted no time. And that hardly constitutes a serious discussion. I did not have any knowledge at all of Waltrip's problem with this case."

Of course, nothing Bush says here contradicts what Rogers said. In fact, his careful explanation of why this is not perjury is incredibly similar to Bill Clinton's weaseling about what the meaning of "is" is. And now MacNeil's sworn statement further confirms Bush's lie.

Whatever Bush said out loud, Waltrip's complaints to the governor got quick results. Eliza May -- the investigator for the funeral services commission -- says that after Waltrip visited the governor, she received phone calls from three senior Bush aides asking if she could wrap up her proble quickly. She says she was also summoned to another meeting in Allbaugh's office, one month after the first one, and found Waltrip already there. The governor's top aide, she says, demanded that she turn over a list of all of the documents that she needed "to close the SCI investigation."

Since then, investigator Eliza May has been fired, 6 or 10 staff members on the commission have been fired or resigned and not been replaced, and the Texas legislature -- led by members receiving substantial contributions from SCI -- passed a bill to reorganize the agency and remove it's head. On August 16, 199, Bush ordered his Comptroller to take over the agency and run it. May -- who, it should be noted, is a Democrat and was even state Democratic Treasurer at one point -- has filed a whistleblower lawsuit alleging she was fired because she persisted with the investigation.

Bush simply didn't show up for his scheduled deposition on July 1st, 1999 in the case. (He isn't a defendant in the case, because Governors are immune from lawsuits in Texas, but is being called as a material witness.) He filed his affidavit on July 20th to indicate that he had nothing to add.

Now Robert MacNeil -- who was the chairman of the Texas funeral commission at the time, a Bush appointee -- confirms that he also discussed the case with Bush, at a 1998 Texas fundraiser. In a sworn deposition, MacNeil says that Bush asked him: "Have you and Mr. Waltrip got your problems worked out?" Replied McNeil: "We're still trying to work on that, governor." Bush then said, "Do your job." Bush's campaign says that MacNeil's statement is false. But the language MacNeil says Bush used is almost identical to what he admits saying to Johnnie Rodgers in the governor's office. Sources

Regards and Good Luck John

Subject: RE: BS: AND WE HAVE A WINNER part two
From: Troll
Date: 19 Dec 00 - 09:12 AM

Subject: RE: BS: AND WE HAVE A WINNER part two
From: Troll
Date: 19 Dec 00 - 12:13 AM

I guess this is your last hope guys.

> >Subject: GOD OVERRULES SUPREME COURT VERDICT > >Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2000 14:42:12 -0500

BREAKING NEWS: GOD OVERRULES SUPREME COURT VERDICT

Bush to be smitten later today In a stunning development this morning, God invoked the "one nation, under God" clause of the Pledge of Allegiance to overrule last night's Supreme Court decision that handed the White House to George Bush.

"I'm not sure where the Supreme Court gets off," God said this morning on a rare Today Show appearance, "but I'm sure not going to lie back and let Bush get away with this."

"I've watched analysts argue for weeks now that the exact vote count in Florida 'will never be known.' Well, I'm God and I DO know exactly who voted for whom. Let's cut to the chase: Gore won Florida by exactly 20,219 votes."

Shocking political analysts and pundits, God's unexpected verdict overrules the official Electoral College tally and awards Florida to Al Gore, giving him a 289-246 victory. The Bush campaign is analyzing God's Word for possible grounds for appeal.

"God's ruling is a classic over-reach," argued Bush campaign strategist Jim Baker. "Clearly, a divine intervention in a U.S. Presidential Election is unprecedented, unjust, and goes against the constitution of the state of Florida."

"Jim Baker's a jackass," God responded. "He's got some surprises ahead of him, let me tell you. HOT ones, if you know what I mean."

God, who provided the exact vote counts for every Florida precinct, explained that bad balloting machinery and voter confusion were no grounds to give the White House to "a certified idiot."

"Look, only 612 people in Palm Beach County voted for Buchanan. Get real! The rest meant to vote for Gore. Don't believe me? I'll name them: Anderson, Pete; Anderson, Sam, Jr.; Arthur, James; Barnhardt, Ron...."

Our Lord then went on to note that he was displeased with George W. Bush's prideful ways and announced that he would officially smite him today. In an act of wrath unlike any reported since the Book of Job, God has taken all of Bush's goats and livestock, stripped him of his wealth and possessions, sold his family into slavery, forced the former presidential candidate into hard labor in a salt mine, and afflicted him with deep boils.

Dick Cheney will reportedly receive leprosy. __________________________________________________________

troll LOL

Subject: RE: BS: AND WE HAVE A WINNER part two
From: InOBU
Date: 18 Dec 00 - 07:50 PM

Hi Kev:
Few people believe that Bush will "win" once the votes are counted, but as it will not be an official vote, well, it doesn't matter very much. As to the arguement over Gore being a liar, well, in point of fact, in law there are a number of words to avoid the L word, for example my wife in cross examining a cop one day, finaly turned to the judge and said, "I know we are not suposed to use the L word, your honnor, but I think it time you took judicial notice of the fact that the witness is more than avoiding the truth, he is in fact, lieing!" Now, in an industry which avoids the L word, so conspicuosly, we have a large number of other terms. Politics, being an out growth of law - as King George said, "A Republic, God help them, they are going to be ruled by lawyers!!!" So, in the case of Mr. Gore's statements which Mr. Troll takes umberage, I would use an industry term of art - puffery. His "lies" were - to my memory, slight exagerations of his role or his parties role in X,Yor Z. Now, that is not much of a fault in this nation of advertisers and spin doctors.
I am reminded of the bumber sticker that our Sisters and Brothers in other nations may not have been aware of, when a KKK member was running in Louisiana a few years ago, against a convicted crooked politician, The bumper sticker read, "vote for the crook".
I would rather have someone who is guilty of puffery with his (or her) finger on the button (if indeed anyone should have a finger on the button - EVEN ME, especialy brother Uncle Jaque - no offence mec,) I digress, better the liar than the idiot.
Cheers all,
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: AND WE HAVE A WINNER part two
From: SeanM
Date: 18 Dec 00 - 07:33 PM

Well... as I may be the one aimed at above, I'll state that I'm NOT a 'loyal supporter' of one side or the other. My specific point was that for all that one side (whichever you pick) screams that "they're doing nasty things", the opposition always seems to be doing the same. As I said at the end... everyone's dirty. Noone is innocent.

M

Subject: RE: BS: AND WE HAVE A WINNER part two
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Dec 00 - 07:28 PM

I can never understand why it is seen as an effective argument, when your own side is criticised for some dodgy behaviour, to turn round and start talking about the faults of the other side.

What's that got to do with it? If I go to a restaurant and the food is lousy, and I complaion, I wouldn't be too impressed to hear the manager saying that it's much werse at the restaurant next door.

The first responsibility of a loyal supporter is to clean up their own side. Once that has been done, it may be time to turn attention to the defects of the other side, but not till then. "Why do you go on about the mote in your brother's eye, instead of dealing with the plank in your own eye?"

To drift a little, does anyone know what kind of odds the bookies are giving as to who will actually turn out to have "won" when the sunshine law recounts are done (if they ever are done)? Those guys generally are a better guide to those kind of things than the pundits in the papers.

Subject: RE: BS: AND WE HAVE A WINNER part two
From: Troll
Date: 18 Dec 00 - 05:11 PM

Well, I hope he's a little smarter than THAT, Larry.
But a happy holiday to you, and keep those bellows dressed. This cold is hell on leather.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: AND WE HAVE A WINNER part two
From: InOBU
Date: 18 Dec 00 - 04:55 PM

Hey Troll ol' pal, the Warren court got up my nose enough times as well, however, what has marked the difference between the republican and democratic leaning judges, for the most part, in this past fight, which I believe to be at the core of the tone of Steven's discent, is the degree to which descions favoring Gore, where balenced with some give, Bush prevails on these points, Gore on these. On the other hand, as Bush's lead was so tenuous, judges ruled out of hand, no balence, and at the cost of their past judicial history. For example O'Conor, who has always defered to state court judges, gave not an inch. But hey, I have always said that courts only convert the change of power that occurs on the street into law, and if the American people are to fat and lazy and complacent to protect their democracy, it is not for the supreme court to do the job, and we deserve the little retard.
Have a great holiday season, and best wishes
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: AND WE HAVE A WINNER part two
From: Troll
Date: 18 Dec 00 - 03:50 PM

Petr, yes, I do believe it. Thats why we quit using them 50 years ago. 13 million might have gotten Florida counted, IF you could trust the ballots.
How do you know your election returns weren't fraudelent? You don't.
Of course a hacker could get in if the system were on open lines. It's a slightly more difficult task if the lines are dedicated. Unless, of course it was an inside job. But then you could have the same problem with paper ballots.
Ebbie, what a GREAT idea. Why don't you call your Congressman/woman/person and suggest it. Call the papers too and a couple of talk shows so if doesn't get shoved under the rug.
Alex. I agree.
Larry, you are quite right. Of course, it's not wrong when a Court that is packed the OTHER way approves of things that YOU like. Take the Warren Court as an example.
And, since you brought it up, I'd prefex a C-student alcoholic drug user to a two-time drop-out liar.
BTW, I understand that Bush has been clean for quite a few years.
When is Al Gore going to stop lieing?

With all due respect, counselor,

troll

Subject: RE: BS: AND WE HAVE A WINNER part two
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Dec 00 - 03:48 PM

AAAAAAAARRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHH...

Subject: RE: BS: AND WE HAVE A WINNER part two
From: SeanM
Date: 18 Dec 00 - 03:38 PM

Oh dearest Guest...

If you place the name "Bush" instead of "Gore" in front of all your allegations, I'll personally guarantee that you'll find just as many accusations that can be backed up with "plenty of evidence". In California, Republicans were offering raffle drawings for computers in exchange for votes. Republicans were caught in nursing homes, filling out the ballots for the invalid. The list goes on, and on, and on, and on...

Face it. EVERYONE is dirty. Politics - it's not just a job. It's a career of felonies and crushing immoral concessions that you eventually get paid $300k a year to retire from.

M

Subject: RE: BS: AND WE HAVE A WINNER part two
From: GUEST
Date: 18 Dec 00 - 03:14 PM

O.K, if we are going to offend each other by talking about politics on this list, let me say that the election was settled in accordance with the LAW. I know this can be an impediment to a liberal, but it helps prevent fraud and chaos. Face it, Gore lost because he didn't get enough votes (even after cherry-picked hand recounts) to EVER take the lead. The democrats are infamous for votinf fraud, and there was plenty of evidence during this election. Students voting multiple times, homeless shelters raided with gifts of free cigarettes, more votes in certain precincts thatn there were registered voters. Voters finding, upon showing up at the polls, that someone had already voted for them by absentee ballot. Dead people, insane people, felons, children - all voting democrat. Gore's people in Florida blew it! The fix was in, but they underestimated Bush's support.

Subject: RE: BS: AND WE HAVE A WINNER part two
From: GUEST,petr
Date: 18 Dec 00 - 02:18 PM

I would add to the above "view from the developing world" imagine if you had an election in the third world where one candidate had a slight lead in the popular vote but ultimately it came down to a close call in a province governed by the self-declared winners brother and then to a tribunal made up mostly of appointees by the self-declared winners father (and his predecessor) would the US recognize such an election as valid. I leave that up to you but I doubt it.

Personally my cynical view is that the Supreme court voted completely along partisan lines (the Equal Protection line has got to be the lamest reason for their decision - because under the electoral college system peoples votes are weighted differently anyway - and there are completely different machines and ballot designs used all over Florida) I believe a just decision would have been to call for a complete hand recount in all of Florida) This will taint the supreme court jesters for years.

"The opportunities for fraud with the paper ballot are overwhelming" Troll Youve got to be kidding Troll.

And there arent with machines? Any programmer will tell you it would be trivial to throw an election based on a computer system - and undetectable. I certainly would never trust one.

In Canada, we just had an election and counted 13 million votes (on paper ballots) in under 4 hours, whats the problem down there? And what is wrong with waiting a few days to hear who the winner is, oh yeah we live in an instant society.

Anyway Good luck with president Cheney. I mean Bush. Petr.

Subject: RE: BS: AND WE HAVE A WINNER part two
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Dec 00 - 01:57 PM

I suppose the logical compromise would be to have a uniform voting system for the elections for Federal ofices, and leave it to people locally to organise the arrangements for all the numerous other local votes takingh place at the same time.

Since, as I understand it the only Federal offices involved would be for a Congressman or woman, a Senator, and a President, the uniform electoral system for them could just be a paper ballot and a pencil, together with enough scrutineers etc.

Incidentaklly, when troll wrote: "It is not the job of the Federal Govt. to furnish the states with voting machines. That is left up to the individual counties. The machines are VERY expensive and in many counties the choice of how to spend the operating funds for the next year focuses more on social services and street repair than on the latest in voting machines" - I took it he was just explaining the current system, rather than actually saying he thought it was saying it was a fair and sensible one.

Subject: RE: BS: AND WE HAVE A WINNER part two
From: mousethief
Date: 18 Dec 00 - 01:31 PM

We should have a box allowing us to spend or not spend $2 on the latest military boondoggle that the Pentagon says it really doesn't want, but which is made in some congressman's pork barrel district.

Subject: RE: BS: AND WE HAVE A WINNER part two
From: Ebbie
Date: 18 Dec 00 - 01:12 PM

My apologies, flattop, I was mistaken- I was responding to Troll (at 1:08).

My thoughts on the cost of uniform, tested voting machines and trained personnel is that every year on our tax forms we can check off a dollar or two to be used for campaign financing: Why couldn't there be such a box for elections? It would provide millions of dollars for purchase and maintenance. Annually.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: BS: AND WE HAVE A WINNER part two
From: Skeptic
Date: 18 Dec 00 - 12:39 PM

Re: Federal Government buying voting machines: The Federal Government can buy or provide money to buy the machines. They cannot mandate there use. Or mandate any other specific way of voting, for that matter. Their responsibility is to ensure equal access to whatever system the States want. Under the Constitution, unless the right or duty is given to the Federal government, it's reserved to the States. So the Feds could offer a grant to states to buy machines and the Supreme Court can be used to ensure that the right to vote isn't impeded, could even set standards that might lead to a limited field of technology, but that's about it. In Florida, that's the power of the State Elections Office. They establish general standards. The Counties have the right to decide how to meet those standards. Like it or not, that's how the law works.

Some real-time numbers for costs:

My county upgraded to a scantron like system last year. The software and hardware (not including the voting booths themselves) was $399,930.00. This included the scanners, modems to transmit counts from precincts to the Supervisors office, initial training and one year, a server to collect the data and one year warranty.

On going warranty and upgrades to firmware are estimated at $45,000/year. If you assume a 10 year live span, that's about $850,000 total life cycle cost. That's about $7500 per precinct up front and $850 per precinct annually. Add to that cost, the fact that poll-workers are paid. They volunteer and they get paid to work the polls, ranging from %525 - $6.15/hour.

We have 53 precincts and 86,000 voters. And even with the scantron system we have lines at some precincts, btw.

troll,

McGrath is right. Who did or didn't want the votes counted is not the issue. At issue is should they have been counted. And despite waffling, the Supreme Court said, yes, all things being equal and time allowing, there should have been a recount.

Arguing about what the results of the recount might be is futile speculation, but given the opinion of the Supreme Court, I'll have to say that the attempts to block recounts by Bush were wrong. I happen to think that the attempts by Gore to block the absentee ballots were wrong too.

The bottom line is that there is a good probability that votes that were cast in good faith weren't counted. That is the central issue to the vote, not who won or lost.

It seems to keep getting lost in the "who can we blame game". (Yes, Pogo was right but that takes the fun out of it). As if blaming one side or the other somehow takes the animus out of a highly probable disenfranchisement of voters.

The article was indicative of a problem that is national in scope. (Glad you finally learned how to cut and paste without a call to the help desk). And while I agree that hand ballots probably wouldn't work, I could also argue that it probably wouldn't be much worse than the current mess.

Since candidates spent roughly 2 billion dollars on campaigns this election cycle, even handouts seem cheap in comparison.

Regards John

Subject: RE: BS: AND WE HAVE A WINNER part two
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 18 Dec 00 - 11:39 AM

Troll makes a good point about the economics involved in supplying every precinct with new voting machines. Really close elections like this one are an anomaly -- perhaps it's been upsetting enough to all of us that we will support candidates who vote to allocate federal funds for this, perhaps not. But up to now it has been a state concern, which is handled on a local level. And the localities have a lot to spend their money on without buying new voting machines (in my community it seems we're always juggling new school expenditures, sewer projects, and other infrastructure improvements).

The Constitutional issue is one that should be examined. Again, Troll's point about people's diminishing attachment to their local communities is a good one. It also suggests, though, that the Constitutional allocation of federal vs. state responsibilities should perhaps be reexamined -- "states' rights" is kind of an anachronism these days with respect to a lot of issues that have become nationalized (or even globalized) in the last 200 years. This could be a good time for a proposed constitutional amendment aimed at establishing clear nationwide voting standards and procedures, at least for national elections. However, I wonder whether this has fatigued everyone so much that there won't be much public enthusiasm for continuing to hash over this issue.

As an aside, I heard over the weekend that both MIT and CalTech are planning to conduct a study of ways in which voting procedures and technology could be standardized nationwide -- in recognition of both the technology and the economics of the issue. If they can keep politics out of it and just deal with it as a technological and economic problem to be solved, maybe the techies will come up with a better mousetrap. (Or maybe they're just hoping to get their Republican and Democratic alumni into a bidding war?)

Subject: RE: BS: AND WE HAVE A WINNER part two
From: InOBU
Date: 18 Dec 00 - 08:22 AM

My dear Troll: You have to forgive me saying you exibit classic republican logic... It is an abridgement of state's rights for the feds to buy better voting machines, more dependable technology, but it is not an abrigment of rights for the Surpreme Court to appoint a president not chosen by the voters of the nation (here we go around again, eh?) Republicans don't trust government until it is time to abrige the rights of young women or there is a threat to the afirmative action for rich white guys that makes it possible for a c- student alcoholic drug user to run for the highest job in the land. What can I say, the American dream is a nightmare!
Cheers
Larry

Subject: RE: BS: AND WE HAVE A WINNER part two
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 18 Dec 00 - 05:14 AM

"So how much is a vote worth?" A lot more than a president.

The amount of money spent on campaigning, I believe, was far far more than the amount spent on the voting process. That's arsy-versy.

Uneven access to the voting process is unconstitional, I would have thought, whether it's because of intentionally discriminatory literacy tests, or unintentionally, because of economic factors that mean some places can't afford to provide the needed facilities.

The Supreme Court to some extent picks and chooses which cases it takes on, with a view to determining the laws it has decided need clarifying. I'd be surprised if a case doesn't arise which would allow it to deal with these kind of issues, even if the people raising it did get slagged off in coded language as "demagogues".

Subject: RE: BS: AND WE HAVE A WINNER part two
From: flattop
Date: 17 Dec 00 - 07:01 PM

Forgive me Ebbie. I'm not sure what point of mine you are defending on. I'm confused.

Subject: RE: BS: AND WE HAVE A WINNER part two
From: Troll
Date: 17 Dec 00 - 06:57 PM

There are only two parts of the Constitution that deal with elections. One says that any law pertaining to the election must be in place on the day prior to the election. The other states that the state legislature shall choose the electors.
The rest of it is left up to the states. I really do not believe that the Federal Govt. should interfere in areas not specifically delegated to it by the Constitution.
I am equally sure Larry, that you do not agree. But I also believe that the Fed.Govt. does not WANT to get involved. This is a matter of states rights.
And, Larry, what makes you so sure that voting would be any better if the Fed. ran things. Is there no graft in the Federal Government then?
McGrath, I think this should answer some of your questions as well.n There is a thing called the Law of Dimimishing Returns which states, briefly that you can reach a point where the cost of doing something is so great that it isn't worth the money spent. So how much is a vote worth? I would not try to answer that one for all the tea in China. Let us just say that the Counties, the States, and the Federal Government are very aware of that law.
At one time it was easy to find poll workers. People volunteered for the job. Now the County has to hire them and they STILL have a hard time finding enough.
Times have changed and people no longer feel that they are part of a community any more. They live in one place and work in another and pursue leisure activities in a third. They move constantly. They have no ties to a particular place, hence no loyalty to it.
I know, I know, I'll get a post back that "I've lived here since I was born and so have my family all the way back to Adam."
Goody. You are the exception in todays society.
BTW it is not the job of the Supreme Court to make law. It is their job to determine constitutionality and that is ALL.
I've rambled long enough. Over to you Chet.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: AND WE HAVE A WINNER part two
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Dec 00 - 06:11 PM

"It is not the job of the Federal Govt. to furnish the states with voting machines. That is left up to the individual counties. The machines are VERY expensive and in many counties the choice of how to spend the operating funds for the next year focuses more on social services and street repair than on the latest in voting machines."

I'd have thought that factors like that would mean that it is a Federal matter, ensuring that everyone in the country has an equal crack at taking part in Fedeal elections.

If that means the Federal Government paying for machines, or for additional election workers, so be it. You can't get much more Federal than electing a president. Maybe the Supreme Court might restore a little of its damaged reputation by determining something along these lines.

Economising on the voting process - badly maintained machines, insufficient polling stations and voting booths, insufficient people supervising the polling stations, and not enough people doing the votings and so forth, - means people are unable to vote, votes don't get counted, mistakes get made, recounts are seen as a problem, and fraud is easier.

And all this can mean that sometimes the winner isn't actually the one whom people voted for. (And that might be a Republican or a Democrat - this isn't something that should divide on party lines.)

And that applies whether it's machines or paper ballots or coloured stones dropped in an urn.

Subject: RE: BS: AND WE HAVE A WINNER part two
From: InOBU
Date: 17 Dec 00 - 04:56 PM

PS the sentence should have read 100 percentile in logic... not all three parts, to be quite accurate...

Subject: RE: BS: AND WE HAVE A WINNER part two
From: InOBU
Date: 17 Dec 00 - 04:55 PM

Hmmmm.... lets count the score here, Voting IS a fundimental right when it comes to NOT counting the votes, but not fundimental enough to use federal funds to create a dependable system to cast votes in the first place..., forgive me, but after scoring in the one hundred percentile nationwide in the LSATS, I fail to see the logic, maybe I've lost grey cells somewhere... I give up, heard anygood ballads lately? - Larry

Subject: RE: BS: AND WE HAVE A WINNER part two
From: Troll
Date: 17 Dec 00 - 04:38 PM

It is not the job of the Federal Govt. to furnish the states with voting machines. That is left up to the individual counties. The machines are VERY expensive and in many counties the choice of how to spend the operating funds for the next year focuses more on social services and street repair than on the latest in voting machines.
Yes, scantron machines would certainly help. So would adequate help throughout the year to work on keeping the rolls current just for an example.
Mary, small precincts are nice but in some of our larger cities you'd have to have a precinct every few blocks. It simply is not practicle to do that. The expense alone would prevent it. And PLEASE don't bring up paper ballots AGAIN McGrath. The opportunities for fraud with the paper ballot are overwhelming. That's why we went to voting machines in the first place; to try to ensure more honest elections. Maybe you don't have these problems in England but we do and your solutions will not work for us.
Jon, glad I found thar column. Interesting, isn't it.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: AND WE HAVE A WINNER part two
From: Ebbie
Date: 17 Dec 00 - 03:58 PM

flattop, in states' defence, until a couple of years ago Federal laws didn't allow the purging that needed to be done.

Since then, Alaska has been purging diligently. Part of the problem is that as was mentioned above, when the military, for instance, maintain their 'residence' in Alaska we have to accept that. They may never come back to Alaska, they may even be registered elsewhere, contrary to law, but that can't be ascertained.

The person does not have to provide any kind of proof of residency except for the address they used while they were posted in state, which is used solely for placement in the system.

Complicating the issue is that as long as someone maintains residence in Alaska, that person/family is eligible to receive the annual Permanent Fund Dividend, which last year was almost $2000 per person. In a five-person family that is a great incentive to keep their 'home' address here.

In Alaska, a non-voting gap of 4 years is required to elicit questions about purging. Three efforts are made to reach that person to ascertain whether that person is in fact still in the state. It's a long process. If the letter is not returned by the post office- for instance, if the new tenant at that address throws away the letter- we have to assume the registered person is still at the address.

It's all predicated on the premise of voters rights.

Ebbie

Subject: RE: BS: AND WE HAVE A WINNER part two
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Dec 00 - 03:39 PM

"overworked or incompetent election supervisors"

Well, incompetent is a subjective kind of thing, but "overworked" is I'd suggest a key elemetn here.

What seems to keep coming up are indications that these kind of problems are prevalent because people are trying to cut corners and do it in the cheap. Not having enough people to do the counting, so that mechanised systems have to be used, and a manual recount is a big problem.

Then there are reports about how poor counties have inferior machines, and about places where there aren't benough voting styastions and voting booths, or not ebnough people to process the voting or advise the voters.

And this is in what is far-and-away the richest country in the world, where incredible sums of money are spent in the course of the elections. But not on the things the money needs to be spent on, not on ensuring that it is fair and efficient.

It is like that not because of some inevitable difficulty in conducting elections in a big country, but because important people have decided that it doesn't really matter, so long as they can get elected.

It seems pretty clear that the people in charge don't have much regard for the ordinary voters. Which is consistent with the way this whole thing has been discussed with the focus on the rights of the candidates, as if that was what really mattered.

Subject: RE: BS: AND WE HAVE A WINNER part two
From: flattop
Date: 17 Dec 00 - 02:27 PM

You got a tie in the election. The quibbled part is less than any margin of error, machine error, errors from human judgement and errors from our natural human tendencies to be dishonest, be we of the right or be we of the left.

It would have been nice for folks to feel that their vote counted but close outcomes upset people. Researchers found that most people would be more upset if they missed a plane by 5 minutes than if they missed a plane by 30 minutes. (I believe the study was on game theory and gambling addictions.) Democrats missed the plane to Florida by a second or two.

I once heard a hockey coach tell a room full of grumbling kids between periods, "When you get a five goal lead, the refereeing won't matter." Similarily, if a few thousand of those who forgot to vote Democrat had voted in this election or if they had earlier elected a Democrat government in Florida so that the Democrats in their unquestionable wisdom and fairness controlled the cheating in Florida, we'd have a different hockey game.

Subject: RE: BS: AND WE HAVE A WINNER part two
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 17 Dec 00 - 02:11 PM

I prefer to stay out of political and religious threads completely, but...

I've always voted in Kentucky, which as most of you know, kinda has the reputation for being a bit backward...'nuff said. But we've always had electronic voting machines. I asked relatives in Atlanta and Florida just what is this bit about punch cards. They explained that the precincts are so large there that they've often had to use the cards. They actually have to wait in long lines to vote. This is totally foreign to me. Anytime I've voted there have been 20 people max, and most of us know each other.

I still don't understand how there can be sooooo many problems, but perhaps Kentucky can send some of our machines south.

Subject: RE: BS: AND WE HAVE A WINNER part two
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 Dec 00 - 01:44 PM

And you're right too Jon. Much work needs to be done. There has always been folks who screwed up and I'd like to see more detail into looking at remedies to make ballot design and voting more foolproof. On the other hand, there are plenty of documented situations from precincts all over the US using the punch card machines where counts have had a problem and recounts are questionable.

Here in my own county, we had a similar problem six years ago when a close vote demanded a recount and ended up with three because none matched and there were questions about what the machine count actually was. The precincts where the discrepancies occurred all used cards, whereas the others where there was no problem used either scantron or lever machines. And this was on a Issue vote, not a candidate.

I think what gets me is that these machines have been outmoded for years and we keep writing off the problems. We need election reform in many ways, and campaign finance reforms too. Replacing these machines would have to be included in any thing to make it meaningful. You can't do a reliable recount with punch cards and the equipment used to machine count is not reliable.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: AND WE HAVE A WINNER part two
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 17 Dec 00 - 01:30 PM

Thanks for your last post, Troll. I had not seen it when I made my last one. It certainly is of interest to me and my thoughts on accurate data collection!

spaw, I hadn't read you as demeaning anyone elses technology. I was just using your comments to try to pick up on the point that the greatest technology in the world can not resolve more fundamental problems.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: AND WE HAVE A WINNER part two
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 17 Dec 00 - 01:10 PM

I can believe that Troll but the point I was really trying to make is it does not matter how good or efficient the actual counting mechanism (human or machine) is if the data coming in is unreliable.

Here is one from my days at Hotpoint: When we introduced a new MRP system, we had a lot of problems with negative stocks. The comments from the shop floor were "this system is useless". My answer was "no it is just highlighting a problem that has always existed". The reason for it was that people were borrowing stock from one production line (maybe a delivery had got delayed or failed a QA test - these things happen) to feed another line. I will admit that in an ideal world the borrowing should not have been necessary but the system was getting screwed because people were not submitting the piece of paper that we asked for to keep the system informed of where the stock was.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: AND WE HAVE A WINNER part two
From: Troll
Date: 17 Dec 00 - 01:08 PM

Thought this might be of some interest. troll

By THOMAS HARGROVE Scripps Howard News Service December 14, 2000

- Official registration lists in the United States have become so faulty that scores of counties claim to have more voters than actual adult population.

Sloppy bookkeeping led 190 counties and the state of Maine to appear to be more than 100 percent registered in the 1996 presidential election, according to a Scripps Howard News Service study of election records in 3,189 counties and voting districts.

The study found that at least 167,968 people in these areas were still eligible to cast ballots even though they had died or moved away.

Maine had 1,001,292 eligible voters even though census estimates pegged the voting-age population at no more than 945,000. That means Maine was 106 percent registered four years ago.

"That was not a good thing," said Rebecca Wyke, Maine's assistant secretary of state.

The quality of America's voter rolls is deteriorating. Easier sign-up provisions under the National Voter Registration Act of 1993 and overworked or incompetent election supervisors have contributed to often grossly inaccurate lists sent to the local polling places to determine who should vote.

"This is an accident waiting to happen," said Curtis Gans, director of the Washington, D.C.-based Committee for the Study of the American Electorate. "The problem is real and could pose a danger in that people can vote in the names of those who have died or moved away. We must create a better standard for cleaning the lists."

Election officials in Maine were able to reduce their voter rolls to 882,337 by June of this year, still giving the state one of America's highest registration rates at 93 percent. Meanwhile, Alaska's lists deteriorated to the point that by October of this year the state was 108 percent registered.

"I'm very happy to pass this honor over to Alaska," Wyke said. "Our problems really were based in Maine law not requiring any kind of systematic purging of the voter rolls."

The federal registration act - often called the "Motor Voter Bill" since it authorized citizens to register while applying for drivers licenses - provided a mechanism to remove apparently inactive voters. But many local election supervisors are overwhelmed by the task of regularly preparing lists of voters who have not cast ballots in recent elections.

Maine and Alaska apparently are the first states - at least in modern times - to report more voters than eligible population. But the inaccuracies are even more apparent at the local level.

The most over-registered county, according to the Scripps Howard study, is rural Issaguena County in west-central Mississippi. The county had 1,669 registered voters four years ago, even though census estimates put the adult population at only 1,102 people, making the county 151 percent registered.

"Yes, I've been told that," said Circuit Clerk Erline Fortner who oversees the voter rolls. "But I've never looked into this to analyze it. I just don't have the time to do that. I know some people who have family here but no longer live here do come back to vote. But I don't know if that could account for such a large number."

Mississippi and Michigan are tied for having the largest number of counties with impossibly bloated voter lists. Each has 28 counties that report more than 100 percent registration rates.

Michigan's Iosco County on the shores of Lake Huron had 22,901 registered voters four years ago, even though population projects indicate no more than 16,779 residents are of voting age.

"A lot of those are military people who have to be maintained on our list," said Iosco County Clerk Michael Welsch. "We just can't purge them from the system. Under the law, they can maintain their residence wherever they want to."

The rolls became wildly inaccurate following the 1992 closure of Wurtsmith Air Force Base, which cost the county about 8,000 adults.

"Once they register to vote or get a drivers' license in any other state, in a perfect world either act is supposed to change their voter registration. But that certainly doesn't always happen," Welsch said.

Twenty-seven states had counties with bloated lists, including Texas with 23, Missouri with 19, Maine with 15, Kentucky with 12, Nebraska with 10, South Dakota with seven, Colorado with six and Illinois and Idaho with five each.

Election experts agree that any county with an apparent voter registration rate of 90 percent or greater almost certainly has ineligible voters on their rolls. (In 1996 the national registration rate was 74.6 percent, or 146.5 million registered voters out of a voting-age population of 196.5 million.)

This means there are at least 681 counties and voting districts with suspiciously large voter rolls.

"A bad list can cover up any sort of fraud that could be going on," said Kimball Brace, president of Election Data Services, which advises election supervisors nationwide. His group assembled the data used in the Scripps Howard study. "And a bad list can be indicative of sloppy procedures."

Subject: RE: BS: AND WE HAVE A WINNER part two
From: Troll
Date: 17 Dec 00 - 01:01 PM

Lucius, I read it in a column from, I think, the Washington Times but it could have been World Net Daily. And I should not have said "arrested" He was taken away by the police for questioning. The arrest was an unwarranted assumption on my part. His name, I believe is Geller. I'll try to find out more.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: AND WE HAVE A WINNER part two
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 Dec 00 - 12:55 PM

Sorry Jon, I wasn't demeaning anyone else's technology, just demeaning us here in the States for not using what already exists. There are numerous reliable and easy to use voting machines that do not present the problems we saw with the punch cards. In every one of those that I have seen, the ballot design is straightforward and difficult to confuse. There will always be mistakes and people who "mess up," but not on the grand scale we saw in Florida.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: AND WE HAVE A WINNER part two
From: Troll
Date: 17 Dec 00 - 12:37 PM

Jon, the problem with paper and pencil-at least in our elections- is that we don't have JUST the presidential election on the ballot. There are Senate and House races, state and local questions, Judicial questions, referendums, (referenda?) etc. Trying to count all that would be a nightmare and would take days.
The ballot in my home county was two pages long.
Our precincts tend to be large-several thousand- and machines really are the most efficient way to go. I saw some figures somewhere, but I don't remember where that hand counts were less accurate than machine counts. Maybe Skeptic knows He keeps up with this sort of thing.
McGrath, you may have a point there; at least there wouldn't be partisanship like we will certainly have here on any sunshine law count.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: AND WE HAVE A WINNER part two
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 17 Dec 00 - 12:25 PM

I'd suggest that the sunshine law recounts should be delegated to outsiders. Maybe Canadians would be the best people, since they managed their election so easily.

Subject: RE: BS: AND WE HAVE A WINNER part two
From: Jon Freeman
Date: 17 Dec 00 - 12:20 PM

I'm not sure spaw, we have some degree of technolgy in the UK and use old fashioned pencil and paper but it works!

The technology used was only a small part of a much bigger problem which includes the design and lack of testing of a form and questions over whether everyone who was entitled to vote got a fair oppertunity to do so, which votes should be counted, etc.

It is the whole system that needs reviewing. In computing, there is a saying "garbage in, garbage out" and although in this instance, better technology would have helped, it certainly would not have cured everything.

Anyway, I guess it is time for all of you to put this election behind you and accept the result but it is also time to look at ways of ensuring that such an event can never happen again.

Jon

Subject: RE: BS: AND WE HAVE A WINNER part two
From: flattop
Date: 17 Dec 00 - 12:02 PM

We could also be a little more understanding of problems other countries with fewer resources have running their governments.

Subject: RE: BS: AND WE HAVE A WINNER part two
From: catspaw49
Date: 17 Dec 00 - 10:30 AM

Well we got it wrong this time no matter who won. Or maybe we got it right. At least there were no tanks in the streets.

What should be obvious (and I keep saying this) is that the punch card machines need to go the way of the Edsel. We use them here and they are certainly well proven to be fallible after this latest mess in Florida. since the high court has jumped all over states rights now, it would seem to be a good time to mandate different machines.

There are plenty of them out there and several are about as accurate as you can get on a mass scale. Why not just subsidize the purchase through the Federal government so that all precincts have reliable equipment? I'm sure there are any number of idiots who will stand up and say, "The Feds can't do that! Its the right of the people of the state to choose to squander their votes by using machines that are pieces of shit!"

I think it would be a small price to pay to eliminate this shinola in the future. What really makes us look ridiculous here is that in the most technologically advanced country on earth, we're using such antiquated technology to vote.

Spaw

Subject: RE: BS: AND WE HAVE A WINNER part two
From: flattop
Date: 17 Dec 00 - 10:06 AM

The piece below came through from the Cape Breton Politics list server this morning. I suppose it might have been posted to another thread, I don't have much time to read mudcat these days.

-------- Original Message -------- Subject: View from developing world Date: Tue, 12 Dec 2000 16:43:46 -0800 From: To: Subject: View from developing world

View from developing world

1. Imagine that we read of an election occurring anywhere in the third world in which the self-declared winner was the son of the former prime minister and that former prime minister was himself the former head of that nation's secret police (CIA).
2. Imagine that the self-declared winner lost the popular vote but won based on some old colonial holdover (electoral college) from the nation's pre-democracy past.
3. Imagine that the self-declared winner's 'victory' turned on disputed votes cast in a province governed by his brother!
4. Imagine that the poorly drafted ballots of one district, a district heavily favouring the self-declared winner's opponent, led thousands of voters to vote for the wrong candidate.
5. Imagine that the members of that nation's most despised caste, fearing for their lives/livelihoods, turned out in record numbers to vote in near-universal opposition to the self-declared winner's candidacy.
6. Imagine that hundreds of members of that most-despised caste were intercepted on their way to the polls by state police operating under the authority of the self-declared winner's brother.
7. Imagine that six million people voted in the disputed province and that the self-declared winner's 'lead' was only 327 votes; fewer votes, certainly, than the vote counting machines' margin of error.
8. Imagine that the self-declared winner and his political party opposed a more careful by-hand inspection and re-counting of the ballots in the disputed province or in its most hotly disputed district.
9. Imagine that the self-declared winner, himself a governor of a major province, had the worst human rights record of any province in his nation and actually led the nation in executions.
10. Imagine that a major campaign promise of the self-declared winner was to appoint like-minded human rights violators to lifetime positions on the high court of that nation.
None of us would deem such an election to be representative of anything other than the self-declared winner's will-to-power. All of us, I imagine, would wearily turn the page thinking that it was another sad tale of pitiful pre-or anti-democracy peoples in some strange elsewhere.

Subject: RE: BS: AND WE HAVE A WINNER part two
From: rabbitrunning
Date: 17 Dec 00 - 09:17 AM

I'd like to see all the various agencies that want to use the sunshine laws to count the ballots get together in one of the convention centers and work as a team. And I'd really love it if we got a breakdown of what the "problem" ballots looked like. I.E., on those butterfly ballots, just how many of the overvotes were "gore-buchanan" and were there other kinds of errors. That kind of statistical information would help us create an analysis that would lead to better voter information in the future, as well as (hopefully!) better balloting methods.

And I don't want to see just the undervotes/overvotes counted again. I'd like to see the undisputed votes counted again. Computers can have programming errors that add votes here and there. (Sometimes deliberately.)

As for the absentee ballots -- well, absentee ballots are more susceptible to fraud than any other kind of ballot. Florida law does allow unpostmarked ballots to be counted if the material inside is dated according to one thing I've seen on the internet, and it is the job of the county election commissioners to know election law -- so no unpostmarked ballots should have been tossed until the inner information was checked. (And if that was incorrect, and unpostmarked ballots are invalid under Florida law, then it was the Florida legislature who disenfranchised those military voters, not the democrats.) Again, what I really want to see is a statistical analysis. Which ballots were disallowed and for what specific reason.

Couldn't get to the first thread to see if someone already suggested this. Sorry if it's a repeat.

Subject: RE: BS: AND WE HAVE A WINNER part two
From: katlaughing
Date: 17 Dec 00 - 03:47 AM

Troll said, "A call to try to stall any nominations until you can elect someone who will pack the court the way you would like to see it is novel but a trifle juvenile. It's reminiscent of the little child, on the floor, holding its breath because things didn't go its way."

Am I mistaken in thinking that is a lot of what the Republican majority in Congress has done to Clinton over the past eight years? Not necessarily in the Supreme Court, but in other lower courts and other appointed positions? I seem to recall them stalling many of his appointments, some for actual years. Seems to me there ought to be a deadline about such things.

kat

Subject: RE: BS: AND WE HAVE A WINNER part two
From: GUEST,Lucius
Date: 17 Dec 00 - 01:46 AM

Hey Troll I'm looking throught the news to find some story about a Democratic lwyer that was arrested for swipping a ballot. Where did you hear this? Lucius

Subject: RE: BS: AND WE HAVE A WINNER part two
From: InOBU
Date: 16 Dec 00 - 10:22 AM

Hi Kev:
As to the expectation of indignation on the part of Republicns at the votes not being counted, well, that presuposes a nature that is no longer within the American spirit, that of good sportsmanship. I remember, oh... about 1978, I think, when Kerry won the Sam McQuire cup. The opposing team captain had been knocked out during the game. Kerry footballers carried him to the podium, his head still bloody, and had him raise up the cup with them, in recognition of a game well played. It that were an American football game, the winner would have likely kicked the looser as he left the field.
" The following was posted by the IRSP yesterday... "The IRSP have been contacted by many concerned parents who were not contacted by the schools concerned to see if they would allow their children to take part in the Clinton visit. Many parents who are pacifists and attempt to teach their children that war is wrong have been deliberately undermined in their own homes. Bill Clinton, whatever his dubious contribution to the process here, remains singularly responsible for the mass murder of world citizens including children in Iraq and the Balkans, not to mention the ongoing economic embargo on Cuba which is causing untold misery, starvation, and death."
In conclusion the IRSP representative said;
"The cause of peace in Ireland is important and peace is something that we all strive to achieve, but are the Irish people honestly saying that we want that peace to be achieved on the back of Irish support for American imposed misery, starvation and death of ordinary people elsewhere. We think not! but then nobody thought to ask the ordinary people here!" "
My respoce to my comrads in the IRSP is the recent elections show, not many of us get consulted either...
Cheers,
Larry

PS THANKS JOE - You are a hero!

Subject: RE: BS: AND WE HAVE A WINNER part two
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 16 Dec 00 - 08:59 AM

"Gore fought like hell to make sure all the votes were NOT counted. He wanted no part of the absentee votes which were heavily in favor of Bush."

What on earth has that got to do with it? Gore could be the biggest villain of all times, and Bush could be a saint. That kind of thing is relevant when deciding who to vot efor. It is not relevant in any way when it come to making sure that the votes are counted fairly.

The point, and the only point is, who did the voters choose? Once again: IT DOESN'T MATTER WHO THE FALSELY INVALIDATED VOTES WERE FOR. THIS ISN'T ABOUT THE RIGHTS OF THE CANDIDATES, IT'S ABOUT THE RIGHTS OF THE VOTERS, WHOEVER THEY VOTED FOR.

Subject: RE: BS: AND WE HAVE A WINNER part two
From: kendall
Date: 16 Dec 00 - 08:55 AM

Because they were not legal! they arrived AFTER the deadline, and, without postmarks! Naturally the republicans fought to have them counted, they had spent millions of dollars overseas to influence the GI's