Ouch, we've been Napstered

Subject: RE: Ouch, we've been Napstered
From: GUEST,Will
Date: 22 Dec 00 - 11:36 AM

Well, I think we can all agree to disagree on this issue.

Unfortunately there is only one way to ensure your music is never stolen, or distributed without your consent. Never release it in any form whatsoever.

I am a musician and I too have music out there on CD. The record labels have had way too much power over the years and it's time the artist took the controls again. The Internet may just be the way to do it. Unfortunately with the surge of hit and miss sites (MP3.com, AMP3.com, Riffage.com... mostly misses) we are in the early development stages of this new breed of record distribution. It seems to me that most of the best music to my ears is the stuff that never sees the major labels anyways, the stuff that is pure and bred entirely from the artists with no weight put into "current market trends" and "fashion". (Can anyone say "Boy Band" and "Bubblegum Pop"?)

Thing that makes me laugh is that CD/Tape/LP piracy has been going on for years and years, how many times have you made a mixed tape from some of your favorite albums?

Don't try to tell me it's different, it's no different than making a mixed tape for a friend.

So while you are complaining that Napster is stealing money right out of your pocket and ruining the artist... lets remember a couple things.

The next time you are sitting down to watch a taped Austin City Limits, or cruising down to your cabin with a "best of" home made tape... we all do it. Ethics are fickle at best. Let he who is without sin...

And... the real monsters are not you and I making these tapes/CD's/Mp3's... it's always been and always will be the record labels and their endless pack of cronies. We are just fuel for their money machines.

At this point I would like to crawl down from my soapbox and just wish a merry Christmas to all who believe in the annual "Kill a turkey for Jesus" day.

Have a safe holiday,

Will

Subject: RE: Ouch, we've been Napstered
From: GUEST,Big Mick
Date: 22 Dec 00 - 01:41 PM

Geez, Will, and you were doing so well.........but then you show yourself for a real lightweight when you come to your finale......I had such hopes.....sigh

It's like this, bro. You can't mix up two things, and if you would read CAREFULLY and exercise intellect and a sense of right and wrong, you would see it. The making of a mixed tape for ones personal use is completely proper and harms no one. The taping of a TV show for ones personal use is a proper use of a VCR. I have many tapes, and now CD's of music that I have paid for, and made a copy for my personal use. But you could ask my friends, the latest being a local pub owner, who asked me to burn him a copy of on of my Black Family CD's. I love this guy, and he employs my band. But I turned him down. I loaned him mine, and ordered him one of his own. My guess is he will pay me for it. It is the giving away that violates the boundary. In Napsters case, it is the giving away to the whole world. Fundamentally giving away one bandit tape to a friend, and making it available to the entire world on the Internet may be the same thing; but looked at as a matter of scale, and the difference is huge. I am not trying to tell you that I never made a tape and gave it away, because I have. Honestly, it was very few, and I came to a point in my life where I sat down, sought a definiton of intellectual property, opened my eyes to what I was doing to hardworking artists, and came to the conclusion that theft is just that.

Wil, I mean you no personal insult. But you, like others here, seek to mitigate your guilt because it has been convenient and you like being able to do it. You like getting something for nothing. I like that too. Do I believe that these technologies will change the way we do business? Yes I do. Am I happy about that? Absolutely. I believe that ultimately the artist can use these to control their works, and keep a larger portion of the fruits of their labor. Then what is my bitch? Because I hear people that I otherwise respect, and young friends that I think very highly of like Matt R., refusing to acknowledge the basic truth that they are avoiding paying for something that they would otherwise have to purchase. I hear you using any argument, or mixing arguments like you did above, to try and justify that you are cheating several people/entities out of their just desserts. Do I really give a shit about BMG getting theirs? Nah, not in a personal way. But I have seen too many times what happens when otherwise good people seek to hide behind the curtain and not see the elemental truth. It allows us to be coerced into doing injustice, not activally, but by virtue of not supporting justice. Pablo Freire once commented that washing one's hands of the conflict between the powerful and the powerless means that you have sided with the powerful, not remained neutral. In this case the software and the concept are the powerful, and the artist is powerless (as Dave's original post shows) to control how it is distributed. That is stealing. I am only asking that you look at motive in an honest way.

Mick

Subject: RE: Ouch, we've been Napstered
From: GUEST,Big Mick
Date: 22 Dec 00 - 01:45 PM

And Will, please accept my apologies for the opening bit of that last post. I was being snippy and arrogant. I am sorry for any insult I caused. Sometimes my passions get the best of me.

Big Mick

Subject: RE: Ouch, we've been Napstered
From: GUEST,Will
Date: 22 Dec 00 - 04:15 PM

I find it invigorating when people get this worked up about a topic, it's interesting to see what side of them comes out and yours has come through in spades. Kudos to you. No offense taken no apologies needed.

I guess I also see bands like Metallica who are suing Napster and their fans... and just have to wonder of the logic there. "Hey... these guys are distributing our music without our consent... lets sue the fans... the people who brought us to where we are and still keep us fed." I have learned of a wealth of bands on the internet, and spent hundreds if not thousands of dollars going to live shows, buying CD's, books, merch... but only because I have found them online. I live in a city where we have 2 classic rock stations (they say they play new music... but they don't...) the concerts that come through town are mostly garbage. And there is no real feed for what's new in the music world. Or for what has been (delta blues for example)

If people would stop looking at the money factor, just stop... right now... quit it... look at it as a promotional tool. How many of us are going to get rich making music? Not many. How many of us are going to see slight returns on online distribution. Few. How many of us can use the Internet to distribute digital copies of lesser quality to thousands of people who normally would have never heard of us? All of us.

..."and I came to a point in my life where I sat down, sought a definition of intellectual property, opened my eyes to what I was doing to hardworking artists, and came to the conclusion that theft is just that."

Huzzah to you for developing a policy and sticking to it, it shows character.

"...seek to mitigate your guilt because it has been convenient and you like being able to do it."

Most of the artists I have downloaded recently have been rarities and hard to find items. Things a guy just can't get up here in Calgary Alberta. If I can get them I do, and happily so, but only after to listening to select songs and deciding if this CD is really worth spending $30+ on. I have no guilt about doing this... HMV and a lot of the other major record chains have developed such technology in their stores. Where you can take a CD and have a listen to it before you buy it. Makes for happy consumers, problem is... you find me an HMV with the CD's I wish to buy in their listeners booths... you won't. If I liked Ricky Martin and all the juggy pop stars of today I wouldn't be having this conversation with you right now.

Internet piracy will never go away, fortunately or unfortunately. Online distribution of digital format music will probably never see the light of day. But I do see the internet moving in such a way within the next two years that will spark a major wave in the artists VS. record label battle.(At least I hope I will)

But then again... there is a part of me that wishes music was never given the capitalist stamp it has today. Too much marketing involved... too much to do with fashion and pretty faces.. not enough soul in the music.

It's all so damned confusing... why can't a guy just write songs and leave all the political BS out of it?

Anyways... of to make snow angels and do a few grab and runs on the way home. (stealing is a much better way to get your Christmas shopping done)

Sardonically yours,

Will

Subject: RE: Ouch, we've been Napstered
From: GUEST,Will
Date: 22 Dec 00 - 04:54 PM

Just a little light reading RE: all this banter...

[url]http://www.redherring.com/mag/issue86/mag-intellectual-86.html[/url]

Subject: RE: Ouch, we've been Napstered
From: GUEST,Steve
Date: 23 Dec 00 - 03:14 PM

Great dialog.

Perhaps the publishers and artist need to get together and solve the royalties issues before the music is released to the public. It seems to me this is similar to the issues that arose with the popularity of radio.

This may be an opportunity to correct the injusticise in airplay royalties that have yet to be addressed.

Correcting the problems while still in control of your intellectual property seems the most efficient to me.

Steve

Subject: RE: Ouch, we've been Napstered
From: GUEST,Lindsay
Date: 24 Dec 00 - 02:55 PM

Definitely some well thought out arguments in this thread. Mick makes some excellent points. I find I agree with him. Rationalizing that theft is okay because it's been around for so long, everyone does it, or Napster isn't doing anything that hasn't been done before does nothing but add to the moral erosion.

I'm not condeming anyone, merely stating that I have chosen to etch my lines in bedrock wherever possible. I view Napster as a sanitized license to steal what belongs to someone else. Again, it's not my job to judge anyone.

Lindsay