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Bonnie Prince Charlie - Good or Bad

GUEST,Jenny 19 Dec 00 - 08:48 PM
Mary in Kentucky 19 Dec 00 - 10:02 PM
Caitrin 19 Dec 00 - 10:56 PM
Rick Fielding 19 Dec 00 - 11:25 PM
GUEST,Jimmy 19 Dec 00 - 11:59 PM
Blackcatter 20 Dec 00 - 12:00 AM
Malcolm Douglas 20 Dec 00 - 12:25 AM
Matt_R 20 Dec 00 - 12:38 AM
Clinton Hammond2 20 Dec 00 - 01:05 AM
GUEST,Sledge 20 Dec 00 - 02:15 AM
Wolfgang 20 Dec 00 - 02:57 AM
Steve Parkes 20 Dec 00 - 03:26 AM
Willie-O 20 Dec 00 - 09:42 AM
Les from Hull 20 Dec 00 - 10:04 AM
Fiolar 20 Dec 00 - 02:04 PM
Irish sergeant 20 Dec 00 - 03:33 PM
McGrath of Harlow 20 Dec 00 - 03:55 PM
Melani 20 Dec 00 - 06:15 PM
GUEST,Flo 20 Dec 00 - 08:27 PM
Melani 21 Dec 00 - 02:12 AM
GeorgeH 21 Dec 00 - 06:31 AM
Irish sergeant 21 Dec 00 - 10:55 AM
Fiolar 21 Dec 00 - 01:49 PM
Les from Hull 21 Dec 00 - 02:37 PM
kendall 21 Dec 00 - 03:11 PM
little john cameron 21 Dec 00 - 05:52 PM
kendall 21 Dec 00 - 06:35 PM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Dec 00 - 06:47 PM
Caitrin 21 Dec 00 - 06:47 PM
GUEST,Lowlander 21 Dec 00 - 07:02 PM
Matt_R 21 Dec 00 - 07:31 PM
kendall 21 Dec 00 - 07:58 PM
sheila 21 Dec 00 - 09:17 PM
Irish sergeant 22 Dec 00 - 04:57 PM
Malcolm Douglas 22 Dec 00 - 05:10 PM
kendall 22 Dec 00 - 08:24 PM
John Nolan 22 Dec 00 - 08:46 PM
kendall 22 Dec 00 - 09:25 PM
Dave Wynn 23 Dec 00 - 07:50 PM
McGrath of Harlow 23 Dec 00 - 08:23 PM
little john cameron 23 Dec 00 - 09:45 PM
GUEST,JTT 24 Dec 00 - 04:29 AM
Dave Wynn 24 Dec 00 - 08:51 PM
Dave Wynn 24 Dec 00 - 08:57 PM
McGrath of Harlow 24 Dec 00 - 09:09 PM
GUEST,Murray on Saltspring 25 Dec 00 - 04:01 AM
Little Hawk 25 Dec 00 - 07:45 PM
Little Hawk 26 Dec 00 - 02:42 PM
sheila 26 Dec 00 - 03:27 PM
McGrath of Harlow 26 Dec 00 - 05:12 PM
little john cameron 26 Dec 00 - 07:05 PM
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Subject: Bonnie Prince Charlie - Good or Bad
From: GUEST,Jenny
Date: 19 Dec 00 - 08:48 PM

Please could you give me your opinions? He has been immortalized in songs as a great man but is it true or not? Thank you.


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Subject: RE: Bonnie Prince Charlie - Good or Bad
From: Mary in Kentucky
Date: 19 Dec 00 - 10:02 PM

Hi Jenny, I don't feel qualified to have an opinion, but I find the reading (and music) at Lesley's site (www.contemplator.com) fascinating. Jacobite History Each song has it's own story, and the tunes are quite beautiful.


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Subject: RE: Bonnie Prince Charlie - Good or Bad
From: Caitrin
Date: 19 Dec 00 - 10:56 PM

All right...my opinion on the Bonny Prince (which Matt will undoubtedly be here to disagree with shortly) is that he was more or less a dolt. A charming, dashing, nice little political pawn. Yes, he was exciting and handsome and all those wonderful things, but he didn't have the sense that God gave animal crackers. The Jacobites never had a chance to win, never in a million years. While it makes for great songs, the Jacobite rebellion decimated the highlands. Charlie let himself be drawn in to the idea of taking the throne, but it just wasn't a really sound thought.


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Subject: RE: Bonnie Prince Charlie - Good or Bad
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 19 Dec 00 - 11:25 PM

Well, in his youth he seems to have had the ability to inspire people to risk death for him, so the mythology isn't TOTALLY wrong. He certainly wasn't comfortable with the suggestions given by his military advisors, and many think that led to his downfall. In his middle and old age he sure messed up his earlier reputation by being a violent drunken laughingstock.....but somehow folks wanted (and still want) to believe the absolute best of him.

For me, his legacy is the slew of wonderful songs.

Rick


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Subject: RE: Bonnie Prince Charlie - Good or Bad
From: GUEST,Jimmy
Date: 19 Dec 00 - 11:59 PM

After a previous rebellion in 1715 under "The Auld Pretender" resulted in the wiping out of almost an entire generation of Scots st Flodden ("The Floo'ers O' The Forest"), Charlie, the "Young Pretender" stirred up the highlanders and ancient clans and put together a coallition army. Basically, he attempted to restore the Stuarts (i.e. Catholicism) to the British throne at a time when the reformation was ripe. After some spectacular victories, the unity came apart at York (the English court was preparing to flee the country at the time) and several clans decided to go home. The English, under the Duke of Cumberland were then able to regroup and chase them all the way to Culloden Moor, where a final battle decimated the Scots forces. Bare-arsed men armed with sword and targe (shield) charged into cannon loaded with chain. English-Occupied Scotland was then purged of the clan system. Although a large number of great songs cane out of both Jacobite uprisings (1715 and 1745) I have to agree with Dick Gaughan's sentiments when he says of Charlie, "He damn nearly got us all killed!".


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Subject: RE: Bonnie Prince Charlie - Good or Bad
From: Blackcatter
Date: 20 Dec 00 - 12:00 AM

Greetings

Regardless of the truth of his actions during his life, he has been a source of strength to the Scots and even many Irish during the interveining years.

pax yall


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Subject: RE: Bonnie Prince Charlie - Good or Bad
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 20 Dec 00 - 12:25 AM

Charles Edward Stuart has been admired mainly as a symbol, with little regard to historical fact.  He was supported only by a minority of Scots at the time.  John Prebble's words from The Lion in the North seem a fairly good summation:

Accompanied by a handful of ageing companions, this handsome, self-centred and tragically reckless young man landed on the white sand of Arisaig in July 1745.  He was strong and healthy, ill-educated and charming, and he had come against the wishes of his father, the disapproval of Louis XV, and the advice of his sympathisers in Scotland.  He brought little but the innocent appeal of his personality, and the wiser chiefs were those who refused to meet him lest his charm induce them into their own destruction.  In later years of drunkenness and self-pity he would remember the Highlanders with maudlin affection, but at the time he seemed to share the usual civilised opinion of them.  When he himself first dressed in Highland clothes he said that he needed only the itch to be taken for the real thing.

Malcolm


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Subject: RE: Bonnie Prince Charlie - Good or Bad
From: Matt_R
Date: 20 Dec 00 - 12:38 AM

No, I won't disagree with you Caitrin. He was a fool. But something must be said for impossible dreams...no matter how foolish the dreamer. There's a great song Robin Laing wrote about him...about the REAL Bonnie Prince Charlie. It's called "Summer of '46". You can get the lyrics here. I also sung this one my first tape, and a lotta folks really liked it...just spreading the word about who the man really was.

It also reminds us a lot of ourselves. How many times have you had a dream you wished could come true...but you by no means could bring it to fruition? I'm sure we've all felt like Charles Stuart one time or another. I know I have, many times. And especially right now.

--Matt


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Subject: RE: Bonnie Prince Charlie - Good or Bad
From: Clinton Hammond2
Date: 20 Dec 00 - 01:05 AM

He was a prat... plain and simple...


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Subject: RE: Bonnie Prince Charlie - Good or Bad
From: GUEST,Sledge
Date: 20 Dec 00 - 02:15 AM

Jimmy, the battle of Flodden was fought in 1513 (the time of Henry the Eight) so for the Auld pretender to have been involved he would have been REALLY Auld.

Nitpickingly

Sledge


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Subject: RE: Bonnie Prince Charlie - Good or Bad
From: Wolfgang
Date: 20 Dec 00 - 02:57 AM

A comment on him in song is the first verse of Strong women rules us all with their tears (the 'you' in this song is Flora McDonald).

Wolfgang

There's a moment of your story
That has always haunted me
When you set out in yon open boat
To help the poor man flee
Was Charlie Stuart's future
Already plain to see
Did you know he'd be a waster on his days.


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Subject: RE: Bonnie Prince Charlie - Good or Bad
From: Steve Parkes
Date: 20 Dec 00 - 03:26 AM

A large part of the army fighting BPC were Scots, but lowlanders.


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Subject: RE: Bonnie Prince Charlie - Good or Bad
From: Willie-O
Date: 20 Dec 00 - 09:42 AM

Gaughan also says in his pithy fashion: "He was about as much use to Scotland as a dose of cholera".

About the songs, I agree. I love em, some of them anyway. Even though they're ridiculous artifacts of a reactionary, ill-considered cause that resulted in nothing but death, heartbreak and the ultimate usurpation and depopulation of the highlands. (Which of course got a lot of us where we are today.)

But the best of em really rock! (although my rendition is but a pale echo of Silly Wizards)

Willie-O of Lochiel


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Subject: RE: Bonnie Prince Charlie - Good or Bad
From: Les from Hull
Date: 20 Dec 00 - 10:04 AM

Will ye no come back again? - Will ye definitely no come back again?


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Subject: RE: Bonnie Prince Charlie - Good or Bad
From: Fiolar
Date: 20 Dec 00 - 02:04 PM

Don't know if any Mudcatters ever saw the marvellous Peter Watkins' documentary reconstruction of the battle of Culloden transmitted on BBC in 1964 and repeated a few years ago. Charlie's big mistake was allowing the British army under Cumberland to fire on the Scots for nearly 30 minutes without taking any action and also fail to protect the flanks of his army which allowed it to be attacked by the cavalry. Charlie far from being "my darling" was a fool and never knew when to take advice from his commanders. Interesting to note that when Cumberland met a "real" army as he did later in the War of the Austrian Succession he was defeated on at least two occasions. M


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Subject: RE: Bonnie Prince Charlie - Good or Bad
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 20 Dec 00 - 03:33 PM

I have to say that from what I have read, which isn't everything obviously, misuse of the men fighting for him wasn't limitede soley to Bonny Prince Charlie. The Stuarts as a whole tended to misuse and outright abuse those who were their staunchist supporters. My father always maintained that the Stuarts murdered the Scottish clans. While the Irish basically supported the Stuarts for whatever scheme they came up with (Admittedly for selfish reasons like freedom)The Stuarts wasted their support and squandered their lives. William of Orange treated them better. I am moved by Jacobite rebellion songs but I understand the history too. That doesn't negate the feelings BPC's men had for him (Or for the old pretender) That is what makes them such powerful music. Indeed that is also what moves me with some of the Confederate music that I hear from our Civil War here in the United States. Take the blinders off and enjoy the music anyway. Kindest Reguards, Neil


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Subject: RE: Bonnie Prince Charlie - Good or Bad
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 20 Dec 00 - 03:55 PM

Most of the songs associated with the '45 were written a hundred years or more afterwards. Not that that means they're bad songs - think of all the great songs about the First World War that got written in the last quarter-century or so. But they aren't contemporary evidence of how it felt at the time, and what motivated people.

So far as I can see, it's a distortion to see it as Scots versus English. It was a civil war in Scotland, which it was anticipated would lead on to a civil war in England. But the English Jacobites, of whom there were a lot, turned out to be armchair warriors.

Hindsight makes it seem as if it hadn't a chance, but hindsight always shows whatever happened had to happen. It's been suggested that if they'd held their nerves and kept on from Derby, German George's nerve would have racked and he'd have bolted home to Hanover, and the whole cardhouse of the Hanoverian regime in England would have collapsed.

There's a book of alternative histories published in the Twenties or Thirties, which I've got somewhere, in which it weorks out like that. It has King Charles going on a trip to the American Colonies a generation later, and winning them over by telling them of all the troubles he's had with the Engish Parliament.

I seem to remember the suggestion is he moves the court over to America, and the Stuarts are still ruling the place in the Twentieth Century. (I think they've been chucked out back in the old country.)


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Subject: RE: Bonnie Prince Charlie - Good or Bad
From: Melani
Date: 20 Dec 00 - 06:15 PM

My own opinion from rather desultory reading is that a lot of the Stuarts were handsome, charming screw-ups who were in over their heads as royalty. They probably would have done better at a lower level. Mary, Queen of Scots was one example, Charlie another. He was really a symbol, and became romanticized the way the Confederacy is romanticized by some Southerners in this country.


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Subject: RE: Bonnie Prince Charlie - Good or Bad
From: GUEST,Flo
Date: 20 Dec 00 - 08:27 PM

Well, I just have to get my wee bit in here. Yes, I agree that Charlie was probably a complete idiot but he did bring hope to many people, albeit false hope.

As for Mary Queen of Scots, I think you have to think of how it was for a woman in those times in Scotland. She had to try to please her half brother and all the Lords of Scotland, most of whom didn't want her to be queen. It must have been a very difficult job. Her downfall was probably that she was too soft on her enemies.

By the way, what did Robert Burn's think of Bonnie Prince Charlie?


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Subject: RE: Bonnie Prince Charlie - Good or Bad
From: Melani
Date: 21 Dec 00 - 02:12 AM

Not sure about Robert Burns, but as for Mary...as a queen in difficult times for a woman, I can't help but compare her to her cousin Elizabeth. Of course, the Scottish nobles at that time were a really nasty bunch, and probably even Elizabeth would have had trouble with them. But Mary made a couple of incredibly stupid decision, like her marriage to Darnley. Oh well. Sorry for the thread creep.


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Subject: RE: Bonnie Prince Charlie - Good or Bad
From: GeorgeH
Date: 21 Dec 00 - 06:31 AM

Prince Charlie - Good or Bad?

Yes!

G.


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Subject: RE: Bonnie Prince Charlie - Good or Bad
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 21 Dec 00 - 10:55 AM

My apologies for the double thread. They way I see it, the biggest problem the Stuarts had was an inability to think ahead. I.E. Mary and Darnley, James' lackdaisical performance at the Boyne and Bonnie Prince Charlie for his failure to consolidate the clans and use them in a timely and effective manner. Having said that, being of Scots and Irish extraction, part of me admires the lost cause romance and the dash that Bonnie Prince Charlie personifies. In my heart, though I be American, part of me still stands at Culloden waiting for my king to save the day. I guess deep down I am a romantic dreamer. Kindest reguards, Neil


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Subject: RE: Bonnie Prince Charlie - Good or Bad
From: Fiolar
Date: 21 Dec 00 - 01:49 PM

A thing we learned at school regarding James II following the Battle of the Boyne. On reaching Dublin he is alleged to have said to Lady Tirconell "My cowardly Irish troops have ran away." To which the redoubtable lady replied, "Yes, but your majesty has won the race."


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Subject: RE: Bonnie Prince Charlie - Good or Bad
From: Les from Hull
Date: 21 Dec 00 - 02:37 PM

If Bonnie Price Charlie had been successful, how would things have been any different for the common people who had fought for him? Those who didn't die or get horiibly maimed that is. This is a real question and not rhetoric. I imagine that religion might be different, but I'm not sure exactly how. Anybody know?


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Subject: RE: Bonnie Prince Charlie - Good or Bad
From: kendall
Date: 21 Dec 00 - 03:11 PM

While I was in Scotland, I met and got acquainted with Gordon Menzies. He is one of the duo of "Gaberlunzie", an excellent duo who sing many songs about such goings on. I had read that the Duke of Cumberland had wounded highlanders hunted down and butchered. In fact, I saw the cottage near the battlefield at Culloden where this took place. I remarked, "I hope the bastard got his." Gordon replied, with a smile, "He died of syphilis." I also understand that he didn't even bother to ask about Flora McDonald after he escaped. She was thrown into prison for her part in the rebellion, but, thanks to having relatives in high places, she was not executed. ...you left the fight fast to save your own ass, now Flora is on the rack...

speed bonnie boat like a bird on the wing,
onward the sailors cry.
carry the twit who thought he'd be king
over the sea to Skye..


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Subject: RE: Bonnie Prince Charlie - Good or Bad
From: little john cameron
Date: 21 Dec 00 - 05:52 PM

whit a bunch o rubbish. ljc


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Subject: RE: Bonnie Prince Charlie - Good or Bad
From: kendall
Date: 21 Dec 00 - 06:35 PM

Cryptic, eh?


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Subject: RE: Bonnie Prince Charlie - Good or Bad
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Dec 00 - 06:47 PM

I think Flora emigrated to America. Anyone confirm? Keith


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Subject: RE: Bonnie Prince Charlie - Good or Bad
From: Caitrin
Date: 21 Dec 00 - 06:47 PM

Mary Stewart was trained to be Queen of France. She would have been a wonderful queen of France. Unfortunately, this was not the hand fate dealt her. She was too silly and too easily influenced (and as Irish Sergeant stated, unable to think ahead) to be able to rule Scotland.


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Subject: RE: Bonnie Prince Charlie - Good or Bad
From: GUEST,Lowlander
Date: 21 Dec 00 - 07:02 PM

Guest Jimmy is mistaken about Flodden. It took place before James the Sixth became (I think by his own count) "James the First of England". It was the fault of an earlier Stewart king, James the Fourth or Fifth.

The only admirable supporter of the deposed James Stuart was Viscount Claverhouse, a.k.a. Bonnie Dundee, who damn' near won at Killiecrankie (I think) until he himself was killed. The Auld Pretender was brother to the lecherous party-boy Charles II, who was ancestor by way of two mistresses and their bastards to Lady Diana Spencer of recent undeserved fame. James the Deposed (the A.P.) was Charles's Roman Catholic and devout brother, and the ruling classes of England had had enough of devout Roman Catholics with Henry VIII's oldest daughter "Bloody Mary". So they sent for William and Mary of Orange, and quite right too. The victory at the Battle of the Boyne was unimportant as regards the defeat of the Irish. A Stuart succession would have treated them no better than the Hanoverians did. It was also probably unimportant as regards the defeat of the Catholic side. England at least was by this time solidly committed to the proposition that religion was not a thing that was going to be beaten into them. The important thing about the victory of the Orange side was, that it established the primacy of Parliament over the Monarchy. The defeat of "Bonnie Prince Charlie" merely confirmed that, but the vicious reaction of the English and German victors cost the Highlands dear, and it was the fault of Bonnie Charlie that this happened.

In the wonderful story "Kidnapped", Mr. Rankeillor of Queensferry advises David Balfour that he wishes to hear no names of Highland gentlemen, implying that he wishes to take no sides in the matter of the Crown versus the probable agents of the Pretender.

Robert Burns has one interesting and clear political comment: "Such a Parcel of Rogues in a Nation" refers to the outright purchase of the Scottish Parliament, in 1707, by bribery and the agents of Westminster. The rogues therein condemned were the members of the Scottish Parliament in Edinburgh.


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Subject: RE: Bonnie Prince Charlie - Good or Bad
From: Matt_R
Date: 21 Dec 00 - 07:31 PM

Yes, Flora immigrated to Eastern North Carolina, along with her husband and son, and resided not 40 miles from where I sit right now. Strangely enough, both her husband and son fought for the British when the American Revolution came along. Talk about a twist of fate.

--M


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Subject: RE: Bonnie Prince Charlie - Good or Bad
From: kendall
Date: 21 Dec 00 - 07:58 PM

As for how the Stuarts would have treated their subjects, I just happen to be well aquainted with the last rightful Stuart king of Scotland. Hw lives in St. John New Brunswick, and, his name is, of course, James Stuart. (no kidding) I read the writeup in a national publication. If HE were king, I'd vote for him!


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Subject: RE: Bonnie Prince Charlie - Good or Bad
From: sheila
Date: 21 Dec 00 - 09:17 PM

Lowlander - I think you've mixed up your Jameses. The Old Pretender was the son of James VI&II and Mary of Modena, making him the nephew of Charles, not the brother. He was half-brother to Queens Mary and Anne.


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Subject: RE: Bonnie Prince Charlie - Good or Bad
From: Irish sergeant
Date: 22 Dec 00 - 04:57 PM

I don't know that anything would have been different had Bonnie Prince Charlie won. After Charles the second got shaved just a little too closely, I doubt the Stuarts would have seriously bucked parliament at least not on the Irish and Scottish questions. I have a question for my British mudcat companions. If, Lady Diana is a Stuart by proxy or what, doen't that merge the house of Stuart and the House of Windsor when Prince William assumes the throne? (Not that I wish that, I rather like Good Queen Bess the second. She has class) Kindest reguards and have a splendid holiday season all, Neil


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Subject: RE: Bonnie Prince Charlie - Good or Bad
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 22 Dec 00 - 05:10 PM

The royal families of Europe are all very closely related (one reason, perhaps, for their weak chins) so it won't really make any difference.  As for a "rightful Stuart king of Scotland", it's a bit like the sad pretenders to the Russian, French, Albanian thrones and so on; a monarch rules by consent, not by divine right, so there is no such thing as a rightful king or queen by accident of birth.  Go back far enough and we are all descended from "royalty"!

Malcolm


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Subject: RE: Bonnie Prince Charlie - Good or Bad
From: kendall
Date: 22 Dec 00 - 08:24 PM

The old kings and queens ruled by devine right


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Subject: RE: Bonnie Prince Charlie - Good or Bad
From: John Nolan
Date: 22 Dec 00 - 08:46 PM

Good or bad - it's more complex than that. Kings, queens, dukes, earls, lords, ladies and the whole unelected, parasitic tribe should be repugnant to any freedom-loving democrat. But back in 1745, Charles Stuart was only the slightly more worse of two evils, the second being a parliament in London that was "elected" by a tiny fraction of the population, consisting of dukes, earls, etc. and their flunkies. As late as 1830, in Hawick, for example, there were still only three voters out of a population of 5,000 people. So we can't get misty-eyed over the "mother of parliaments" - that's just propagandist rot. The working class was more brutally oppresssed under a parliamentry system (which simply tended to spread regal powers over the next layer of aristocratic thieves and the rich merchant class, as far as I can see.) So, just like 255 years later, it was really Tweedledum or Tweedledee, except there was no Ralph Nader in sight. May I respectfully recommend to anyone interested in the Scottish ruling class, that they read "Who Owns Scotland" by Andy Wightman. His conclusion in a tremendously well-researched book, is that Scotland, today, is still the most feudal country in Europe. And talking of Flodden, we can't forget Earl and Lady Douglas-Home, who, in the year 2000, admirably found time, in their busy rent-collecting schedule, to address the grateful townspeople of Coldstream, before the annual ride to Flodden Field. To see a picture of such an auspicious occasion, copy and paste this: http://stephaniepiro.com/Coldtream%20Civic%20Week.htm Third picture on the page.


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Subject: RE: Bonnie Prince Charlie - Good or Bad
From: kendall
Date: 22 Dec 00 - 09:25 PM

We got fed up with all that "Royal" jazz two hundred years ago.


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Subject: RE: Bonnie Prince Charlie - Good or Bad
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 23 Dec 00 - 07:50 PM

Never did understand or enjoy the plonker words to Flower (flooooor) of Scotland. Reading the thread shows that the prince (small p) made it to Derby and then got his arse well and truly kicked all the way back to scotland and then a good thrashing into the bargain to put him straight.

Then the Scots sing about it for the next coupla hundred years.... and make up ever increasingly wild and exaggerated reasons for what happened being the result of English tyranny.

Thought that American film about the other plonker was also load of dog pooh. (Wallace and Gromit or something wasn't it?)

Please dont cloud the issue with facts....none of the songs contained any...let emotion run riot...and let slip the Dogs of war!

Spot the (English) Dog (looking for trouble)


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Subject: RE: Bonnie Prince Charlie - Good or Bad
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 23 Dec 00 - 08:23 PM

It wasn't ever Scots versus English. For the most part, the only people doing any fighting in the Forty-Five were Scots, on both sides, with the occasional German or French prince on one side or another. The English were just spectators.


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Subject: RE: Bonnie Prince Charlie - Good or Bad
From: little john cameron
Date: 23 Dec 00 - 09:45 PM

Noo ye've aw had a wee kick at the cat ah'll let a Scot gie his say on the maitter.
As fur Spot the dug,hae a wee look in yer ain closet son.
Ah cuid gie lang dissertation on Scottish history an the clan system bit it's no worth the effort as ye widnae understaun the hauf o it.

http://www.inditer.com/macduff/charlie.htm


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Subject: RE: Bonnie Prince Charlie - Good or Bad
From: GUEST,JTT
Date: 24 Dec 00 - 04:29 AM

Yes, the Irish also looked to Bonnie Prince Charlie - in many 18th-century poems referred to in cryptic terms such as Mac an Cheannaire (the Merchant's Son) and An Buachaill Og (the young lad); Ireland was sung of as looking to help from abroad, led by the prince, to save her from the depradations of a foreign power.

This comes from the ancient alliance in which the lords of Donegal ruled the western islands and highlands of Scotland.


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Subject: RE: Bonnie Prince Charlie - Good or Bad
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 24 Dec 00 - 08:51 PM

Wuuf wuff Growl Bark bark......snarl.snarl;...Bark woof woof...... If I speak in my natural dialect it makes little sense either.

Spot (the Lancashire and up for it)Dog


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Subject: RE: Bonnie Prince Charlie - Good or Bad
From: Dave Wynn
Date: 24 Dec 00 - 08:57 PM

Just realised that my last posting was done on Christmas Eve. It should have been more conciliatory. To all our Border countries....Scotland ,Ireland , Northern Ireland and Wales I wish a Happy , Peaceful and Prosperous New Year. Spot (The Festive and Hopeful) Dog


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Subject: RE: Bonnie Prince Charlie - Good or Bad
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 24 Dec 00 - 09:09 PM

You left out the Isle of Man. And the Channel Isles.

.

Happty Christmas all round. Including the Heptarchy that is currently masquerading as "England".


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Subject: RE: Bonnie Prince Charlie - Good or Bad
From: GUEST,Murray on Saltspring
Date: 25 Dec 00 - 04:01 AM

Sheila: James VI of Scotland became James I of England (and the united kingdom), and his son Charles was Charles I. HIS sons were Charles II and James, who was VII of Scotland and II of England. James's second wife was Mary of Modena. As for saying Willie of Orange treated the Highlanders better, remember Glencoe!!


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Subject: RE: Bonnie Prince Charlie - Good or Bad
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Dec 00 - 07:45 PM

LJC - Ach, it's richt guid tae see ye back in action, lad! But Ah dinna ken whit part ye mean, when ye say "rubbish". Weel ye expand on that a wee bit?

This is a pretty interesting thread. Sounds like Bonnie Prince Charley was a reckless romantic rather akin to Canada's own Louis Riel, who got hanged when his glorious attempt to form a metis nation got quashed by the redcoats.

This was Canada's one and only Indian war after the War of 1812, as far as I know. Maybe we should do a thread on Riel...

- LH


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Subject: RE: Bonnie Prince Charlie - Good or Bad
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Dec 00 - 02:42 PM

Well, okay, maybe not then. I hope I have not killed this thread by bringing up so boring a subject as Canadian history! :-)


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Subject: RE: Bonnie Prince Charlie - Good or Bad
From: sheila
Date: 26 Dec 00 - 03:27 PM

Murray - Ack! - I _meant_ to type 'VII', not 'VI' - notice I _did_ say 'II'! (And it wasn't me said anything about Willie and the Highlands.)


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Subject: RE: Bonnie Prince Charlie - Good or Bad
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Dec 00 - 05:12 PM

Start a Louis Riel thread, LH, with him in the title, and see what the response is.


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Subject: RE: Bonnie Prince Charlie - Good or Bad
From: little john cameron
Date: 26 Dec 00 - 07:05 PM

LH,whit ah meant wis that it seems tae me that there is an awfy lot o Scottish history experts here.Ye hae tae understaun aboot the clan system in order tae gie an informed opeenion on Charlie.When the clan system wis brekin doon it wis caused a great deal by the infuence o "civilisation" creepin in.We never had much o an agrarian society,maistly cattle an swoopin doon oot o the hills an grabbin whit ye wanted.The heilanders were a wild bunch an had tae be "tamed".Some o the chiefs could see the writin on the wa, bit ithers wanted tae keep their power.Yese were richt when ye said he wis only a figureheid but nevertheless accordin tae Scots law he wis the boss.Even if he wis only 2yrs auld he wis the high heid yin an ehat wis that.It wis also mentioned that this wis gaun on at the same time as the reformation.That certainly didnae help his cause as the lowland chiefs were paranoid aboot catholics.That split the sides even further.
If Cumberland had jist won an left it at that mibbe things wid hae died doon,bit whit way the bannin o the kilt an no bein alood tae speak oor ain tounge an ither atrocities aw he did wis mak martyrs oot o awbody.
They did the same thing wi the Irish,"Bloody Sunday"Aw ower the world the same the wis done onywhere the ENGLISH took ower.Ah could go on bit we are aw guilty o various fuck-ups.Different times noo,or is it? ljc


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Subject: RE: Bonnie Prince Charlie - Good or Bad
From: GUEST
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 07:04 PM

Programme on sky the other night about him, didn't seem as bad as history painted him.


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Subject: RE: Bonnie Prince Charlie - Good or Bad
From: number 6
Date: 05 Jun 06 - 07:24 PM

He couldn't be that bad, as the story goes the recipe for Drambuie came from him.

sIx


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Subject: RE: Bonnie Prince Charlie - Good or Bad
From: GUEST,thurg
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 01:24 AM

I remember a write-up in the Toronto Star Weekly about the New Brunswick James Stuart back in the late '60's. He had formed a court-in-exile, consisting of the late Alden Nowlan, Ray Fraser, and various other poets, philosophers and good-time Charlies - a true Stuart court! There was a great photo of this (handsome and presumably charming) Stuart and his followers - he was in Highland regalia, complete with tinfoil sword and crown, and his courtiers were bedecked in capes and robes from granny's closet, accoutred with ceremonial weapons that looked suspiciously like kitchen-utensils ... He sent a demand to Queen Elizabeth that she vacate the palace and give up the throne forthwith. History fails to record her response. (But note that the Windsors are still the Royals.)

kendall's post is the first I've heard of our rightful king since then. Perhaps it's time to revive his claim ... Sound the pibroch, Mudcatters!


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Subject: RE: Bonnie Prince Charlie - Good or Bad
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 03:41 PM

One night, back in 1978, Alex Campbell was playing Tamworth Folk Club.

Rather distractedly Alex said, 'We're near to Derby here.....if you lot had played your cards right back in 1745..... you'd still have a team in World Cup.'

My God! twenty eight years ago.....how I've wasted the time!


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Subject: RE: Bonnie Prince Charlie - Good or Bad
From: Charmain
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 07:09 PM

Re to Spot the Dog earlier this century - see above!

Flower of Scotland was written in tribute to Robert the Bruce who trounced the English and sent them packing not to the Bonnie Prince who got them all mashed up and squished


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Subject: RE: Bonnie Prince Charlie - Good or Bad
From: GUEST
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 07:26 PM

He was a French Poof


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Subject: RE: Bonnie Prince Charlie - Good or Bad
From: Charmain
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 07:29 PM

Pretty sure he was Italian - and definately a fop if not actually homosexual...


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Subject: RE: Bonnie Prince Charlie - Good or Bad
From: RobbieWilson
Date: 06 Jun 06 - 07:45 PM

Like Billy Connoly says: the only man to be named after 3 sheep dogs


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Subject: RE: Bonnie Prince Charlie - Good or Bad
From: GUEST,McNab
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 03:56 AM

What gets forgotten is that a large chunk of Scotland didn't want BPC around and a good proportion of the army that crushed the Highland charge at Culloden was Scottish. As so often - including the so called Braveheart story (who was killed by an English axe but betrayad by fellow Scots - it's another grubby little drama about some would be trying to grab power and wealth. The ordinary people - as usual they pay the price either in blood or poverty or both.


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Subject: RE: Bonnie Prince Charlie - Good or Bad
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 06:18 AM

well yeh he was definitely a bit an arsehole. However theres a statute of limitations - think how many tins of shortbread he's sold for you guys over the years. And the whisky bottles....

thens theres all the poems , songs, novels....

he may have been responsible for the depopulation of the entire country, however he initiated a thousand industries inside your country...

face it you could have done worse for revolutionary leader. You could be trying to flog Osama Bin Laden Dundee cake in a tin, Che Guevara Griddle cakes,

None of them wore a kilt either - good marketing move!


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Subject: RE: Bonnie Prince Charlie - Good or Bad
From: Paul Burke
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 06:42 AM

What if William McGonagall had raised the Hielands and marched south? What songs would we be singing now?


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Subject: RE: Bonnie Prince Charlie - Good or Bad
From: Big Al Whittle
Date: 07 Jun 06 - 10:41 AM

I dunno. but it wouldn't scan...


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