RE-Starting a Band. What a pain!

Subject: RE-Starting a Band. What a pain!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 20 Dec 00 - 11:24 AM

I've been thinking about Mudcatter INOBU's revamping his band Sorcha Dorcha, and it brings back many bittersweet memories.

On several occasions I've tried to put "the perfect" band together, but have always come up short. I'm curious about others' experiences.

I think my frustrations have often been the result of too much pickiness on my part or perhaps I just have unreal expectations. I think that GENERALLY a similar outlook politically is important, for example, I hired a fine fiddler, who could double on several other instruments, sing baritone harmony,....and had his own transportation(!!). After a while it became plain to me that in groups of people (and occasionally on stage) he could be very insensitive in the way he spoke about minorities, women, and in general, anyone who we'd class as "liberal". On a radio show, while talking about how he'd acquired his fiddle, he said he'd "Jewed" the previous owner down. After the show, I fired him. Needless to say, he didn't have a clue what he'd done wrong (in my eyes). I tried to find another fiddler with even SOME of his skills, but no dice. So the band folded. The other two folks in it, thought I was "over-reacting".

Punctuality on gigs has always been paramount with me. Is it too much to ask band members to arrive at the venue A MINIMUM of half an hour before show time? Well, apparently it IS too much to ask, 'cause I've had to practically beg quite a number of folks over the years to do it.

The funny thing about this is that I think I'm pretty damn easy to work for. Lotsa laughing, minimal rehearsals, no penny pinching, no problem with folks making mistakes, and everyone in the band gets featured a lot. Seems that my only "hot buttons" are "social skills and punctuality". Oh...and not to get stupid drunk while on the job (occasionally that's been a problem). Guess that's why I mostly play solo.

I know that many (most?) bands carry on for years virtually hating each other off stage, but I just can't bring myself to live with that kind of situation. Trying to re-form a band when an important musical cog leaves is BLOODY difficult. I think I can understand why Bill Monroe was SO hurt and angry when Flatt and Scruggs left him. In his heart he undoubtedly knew that he'd just lost THE band of his lifetime. He hired hundreds of players over the next 50 years, and had some good bands, but he never recreated THAT dynamic.

I'd love to know anyone's thoughts about forming and re-forming their bands.

Thanks.

Rick

Subject: RE: RE-Starting a Band. What a pain!
From: GUEST,Russ
Date: 20 Dec 00 - 11:58 AM

Rick, I sympathize with you, but what I found curious was that there were no references to music in your criteria. With a little editing it would be impossible to determine that you are a musician rather than the manager of a McDonalds bemoaning the difficulty of getting good counter help. This isn't a criticism, just an observation. Which leads to the question of what kind of band are you talking about? What are you trying to do with this ensemble? What sound are you looking for? Would you be just as happy with a bluegrass fiddler from Kentucy as an irish fiddler from Donegal? Is there any requirement that your band members be on the same wavelength as you musically?

Subject: RE: RE-Starting a Band. What a pain!
From: Clinton Hammond2
Date: 20 Dec 00 - 01:07 PM

A band is first, a social group... if the people can't get along, it won't matter how good the music is...

Play solo... it's so much easier...

;-)

Subject: RE: RE-Starting a Band. What a pain!
From: GeorgeH
Date: 20 Dec 00 - 01:33 PM

Yup, well said, Clinton . . And if the members of the band don't respect one another on a personal level then there's not much chance they'll "gell" musically, IME.

One big problem, at least here in the UK, is musicians who work in several (or more) bands . . Often that's a necessity for those who are earning their living by their music, but it does make organising gigs a spot difficult.

A good friend of ours was "sacked" by an excellent band he was in because he adopted a policy that once he'd accepted a booking with one band he simply wasn't available on that date for either of the other bands he then played in . . (seems fair enough to me!) First he knew of the sacking was when he saw the Band-in-Question advertised for a booking (on an evening when he was free) that no-one had told him about . .

However . . a few years down the road it's turned out well; he's now working in another band (with another good friend of ours) enjoying more success than he's ever experienced in his past career . . .

(OK, we'll skip over the fact that his home and workshop were flooded in the recent UK incidents . . )

Christmas (or seasonal, if prefered) greetings to all Mudcatters!

G.

Subject: RE: RE-Starting a Band. What a pain!
From: Songster Bob
Date: 20 Dec 00 - 01:49 PM

My problem is that bands I'm in tend to start as friendships and then become bands. So when life interferes, and it gets too hard to arrange rehearsals or book gigs, it's hard to "hang up" one band and look for another, even if you have the musical and social material among your circle of other friends.

I'm in a trio now, but one that's basically moribund, owing to one of us being in law school at age near 50 and working, too. So what should I do? Replace him temporarily, book a duo, or just do solo gigs? Or start a separate band?

I've done a couple of duo gigs with my remaining sidekick, and some solo spots, though not many of either. I'm leaning toward the new band route, partly because I'm also leaning toward a wider range of musical styles than the trio does. I know that the third member of the trio has other musical outlets, including making very good music with his wife, so I'm not taking away as much if I start an electric group or some such, since that's not his bag, anyway.

But of course, it all depends on my getting off my duff and looking around for the musicians who might want to do the material I have in mind. And that is what it comes down to, the "wanna" at my end. Wishing I had a new band isn't going to organize it.

So I think it's time to make a few phone calls. Maybe "announcing" it like this will give me the oomph to actually start the process. Let's hope.

Bob Clayton

Subject: RE: RE-Starting a Band. What a pain!
From: GUEST,Guest
Date: 20 Dec 00 - 02:02 PM

I'm remaining anonymous because some of my band mates might be reading this.

Rick - there's a fiddler here I would like to work with but his "redneckishness" is the stopper - maybe there's a reason they call the fiddle the Devil's Instrument !?!

I'm curious about one the elements raised in above posts. What kind of trouble does one find if you join more than one band ? I love the group I'm in, but sometimes feel the need to play with different musicians for a variety of reasons. Could others elaborate more on this.

My limited experience has been that you generally have to like your band mates socially before making any decent music. Luckily we're all pretty prompt, don't drink to excess, and keep our prejudices & predilections to ourselves on-stage. (just another white bread, ho-hum group. Maybe we should bite a few bat's heads off !!)

Subject: RE: RE-Starting a Band. What a pain!
From: Peg
Date: 20 Dec 00 - 03:24 PM

I think all members need to have mutual respect for one another as people first, then musicians a close second. But musical ability is important, as is enough humility to hear constructive criticism or suggestions. And professionalism should not be confused with arrogance or irreproachability.

I would counsel anyone over age 30 who considers themselves "professional" and who has been in more than one band to think carefully before playing with young or immature (the two aren't necessarily mutually exclusive) players who don't know what professonalism is...

And when conflict arises, it must be addressed instantly by those involved, if necessary including soem one who is impartial to mediate. No going back and forth with other members over the "problem" while keeping the "problem" member unaware of the "problem" whatever it may be. This is high school behavior and leads to resentment and a tendency to demonize other members. Sadly any group larger than two often has to deal with this dynamic.

I have been in large and small groups (from 3 to 23) and the group dynamic changes according to whether there is a clear "leader" in the group (this is needed in larger groups), but also the dynamic is affected by the history members have with one another (whether musical or frienship related). A newer member will not have this same history, and there needs to be awareness of this.

When it works, it's great. When it doesn't it sucks. It's like being in a relationship but with more people.

I am considering "hiring" musicians for my next recording project because the hassle of working with a regular band has just been too draining in the past...or maybe I have not found the right combination of people and it still awaits me.

Being a singer who does not really play any other instruments well enough to accompany myself, solo gigging is not an option...a cappella singing, while a specialty of mine, gets old after a while!

Subject: RE: RE-Starting a Band. What a pain!
From: john c
Date: 20 Dec 00 - 03:34 PM

Speaking from bitter personal experience - for me it goes without saying that the band members must get on well with each other. Thats just as (if not more) important than their standard of musicianship. BUT - golden rule number one - if there are women in the band, then NO RELATIONSHIPS. If there are, just sit back and wait for the fun to begin. I´ve been in an excellent band that have folded for just that reason. And my current band is beginning to look very dicey, just when things are really starting to roll.

Subject: RE: RE-Starting a Band. What a pain!
From: RichM
Date: 20 Dec 00 - 03:39 PM

It's up to you to decide what aspects are important.

Like you, I prize punctuality and social skills. And compatability IS important--but you have to decide how little or how much you need.
I don't require all people I play with to have the same philosophy as me, but I will not play with people who are unkind, or who ridicule others.
Punctuality at gigs is important too. I like to set up in plenty of time and be ready to start at the prearranged time.
I also like to present a polished rehearsed set. I quit one band that had potential because no one other than myself and one other could remember arrangements from one practice to the next.

Other questions that band members should be in agreement on; or at least, discuss:

Where is the band going?
How often should we play?
What kind of gigs?
What does each member expect from the band, and from the others?

Currently I am in a band that presents old time bluegrass and country, and gospel music. We couldn't seem to get everyone together for regular practices, so 3 of us who are the singers practice each week. We find that if the three of us know the songs and arrangements, its just that much easier to get the total band sounding right when the banjo and fiddle are able to join us.
It probably helps that the three of us are retired or work part time.

We like to feature all the instrumentalists generously in every performance. We have a good time, the audience has a good time, and we get asked to come back. As to drinking on the job, its not a problem for us. We are either very moderate drinkers or abstainers.

Rich McCarthy

Subject: RE: RE-Starting a Band. What a pain!
From: Peg
Date: 20 Dec 00 - 03:41 PM

john...

well, you leave out the possibility of gay relationships, don't you? :)

I think you are right, if two people meet and get together as a result of being in the band (as opposed to starting or joining a band after they are together) it can cause problems. It needn't, but it often does.

They even made a movie about this age-old problem: "The Commitments."

Subject: RE: RE-Starting a Band. What a pain!
From: InOBU
Date: 20 Dec 00 - 03:47 PM

Hey Rick!
The guest who responded that you sound, what did he say, like a McD's manager, well, there is a lad who likely never had to wressle with the problems of band leadership, membership whatever. I tried to make my band a collective, however, in the States, there are so few who grew up in colective culture, so they don't understand their responcibility. The son's of bitches watched me - the whole of last winter, carry the entire PA system up and down four flights of stairs alone, with a broken rib. Their attitude was it was my band, however, as I gave them some say about everything in the band, it was their band when they objected to songs about Amadou Diallou. I agree that the problem of keeping a band together is not about musicanship - it is about the culture of our two rather sick little nations. Try as I might to get folks to discuss with their bandmates together, problems, as I did when I was a mate under sail, you still had folks getting together behind other's backs to make little aliences and crap, like an episode of Survivor. Well, I can only hope that this new collective can keep up as well as we have over the last 24 hours. Keep asprin on hand, eh Rick!
Cheers and best of luck
Larry - PS I once put one of my rowers out of the van on the highway, when I used to race Irish currachs for using the word nigger, and I would do it again, summer or winter rain or shine. Good on ya for firing the fiddler, I hope it makes a dent in his thick head.

Subject: RE: RE-Starting a Band. What a pain!
From: Caitrin
Date: 20 Dec 00 - 03:51 PM

Never, ever, ever date people you're in a band with. Or at least, in my (strictly observational) experience, it's a very bad idea. Don't date people in your theater company, either. Both can easily become messy. Very messy.

Subject: RE: RE-Starting a Band. What a pain!
From: Peg
Date: 20 Dec 00 - 03:52 PM

Larry;

I know it's in another thread too but just wanted to wish you luck with the new incarnation of your band! I still hope to catch a gig sometime and sing a few tunes with ya! Yer bandmates don't know how good they got it...

all the best, Peg

Subject: RE: RE-Starting a Band. What a pain!
From: john c
Date: 20 Dec 00 - 03:57 PM

Point taken, Peg. How politically incorrect of me.
And,you know, I always wondered why they were calling me`The Lip´!

Subject: RE: RE-Starting a Band. What a pain!
From: UB Ed
Date: 20 Dec 00 - 04:08 PM

Guest Russ makes a good observation. A pro is a pro whether at a corporation or as a musician. Unfortunately a "job" generally tends not to be fun, and fun turned into a job can lose some of its pleasure.

If playing music is truely the profession, then it seems corporate management techniques could apply. I notice people work "for" rather than "with" you. No criticism intended; corporately, I've had more success with a team than with a staff.

Another consideration: look who we're working with here. Musicians! As a too-wide generalization, my artistic friends tend to be less concerned with punctuality (as well as other social "norms") than my engineering and accounting buddies. We're all wired just a little differently.

I'm fortunate to be among a group that plays solely for fun. We play every Thursday night at a pub, there will be anywhere from two to six of us, the fiddle player will always be the last to arrive (what is it with you fiddle players?) and we never rehearse. Anyone of us can bring a new song with the one rule being we must share the key prior to beginning to play it. Its purely for fun and the audience seems to enjoy it (We're on our third year). I'm sure if this was our livelihood, we'd approach it much differently. Our goal is to have fun and offend as few people as possible.

Rick, what are you trying to accomplish with your group and what would it take to accomplish it?

Subject: RE: RE-Starting a Band. What a pain!
From: InOBU
Date: 20 Dec 00 - 04:47 PM

Thanks Peg! - Larry

Subject: RE: RE-Starting a Band. What a pain!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 20 Dec 00 - 05:03 PM

WOW! Great feedback. Thanks.

Actually Russ, you make a good point. Earning your living from music DOES at times put you in the position of having to act like a MacDonald's manager. Rarely, but it happens.

UB Ed. The instances I was citing happened MANY years ago. If it were a current situation I'd have been more careful and far more general about the "problems" I encountered. (Guest..I understand your caution)

First of all, top notch musical ability is simply a "given". My guess is that in most major cities there are probably about 20 really skilled musicians on the kind of instruments we discuss on Mudcat (20 of each, that is). Folks who play well, have "big ears", and know what's expected of a professional....'cause their rent money depends upon it! Most of these players move around from band to band, and my experience has been that "personal conflicts" rather than "on stage performance" is the reason for it.

Guest: I hate fights. I hate unresolved arguements. I REALLY hate "making the best of things". If the "redneck" was Michael Coleman himself,(or Scottie Stoneman, or Yasha Heifetz) I probably couldn't work with him...and I'd kick my own ass for not being able to...but that's me.

Almost every good player (and I suspect you're a VERY good player) in Toronto works with at least three bands. Don't see a problem with it. I love folk, blues, jazz and country, and at different times have enjoyed working with groups in those styles.

Now the funny thing is that I met a Mudcatter who I'd KILL to work with, but it was only after getting to know them and really liking where they were coming from "human being" wise, that I found out about this person's top notch musical skills. Bit of a commute though, so we'll probably play together sporadically...or in the next life.

Rick

Subject: RE: RE-Starting a Band. What a pain!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 20 Dec 00 - 05:13 PM

Oh, and Larry. I can relate to the "luggin' the stuff" while some others just watch. been there, done that, whole lot of "no fun"!

Actually since I'm back here, babbling on, I'll mention that even in a Bluegrass or trad folk setting, I do a bit of what some would call "political" material (I just call 'em "people songs"). Bit of a dichotomy to sing a song about supporting "women's struggles" when one of your band mates tells "dumb blonde" jokes. God knows some of my humour is tasteless, but I'd still like to think "the intentions" of the folks I work with are vaguely on the same page.

Rick

Subject: RE: RE-Starting a Band. What a pain!
From: GUEST,LEJ
Date: 20 Dec 00 - 09:53 PM

I have been in several bands in my life,and it seems without fail there is always one asshole.If you want to have fun with the music (which is,after all,the reason for doing it.You can make better money holding the "SLOW" sign at construction sites)you must get rid of this person.Even if you suffer in musical ability.I started a thread not long ago about "cheating" with a new group,an experience I found exciting and loaded with creative possibilities.It fell apart because of the AHF...asshole factor.My old band who has been together on and off for 14 years is a very simpatico group...not the most talented,but we like to hang together.We are reaching an interesting point though...as we play out more often,the limitations of one particular member are becoming more obvious.But so far,because of the "boy's club" atmosphere of this band,replacement,or even criticism (unless cloaked in humor) are not options.I reckon there's no perfect world when it comes to musical groups.

Subject: RE: RE-Starting a Band. What a pain!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 21 Dec 00 - 01:10 AM

A friend of mine (gotta be a little careful here) started a band about two years ago, with some folks that he'd been jamming with on a weekly basis. They were pretty rough when I first saw them, but over time they really started to gel. One day my friend said that they'd received an offer to go to a major festival......with the provisio that they get a new bass player. He asked me what I thought, and I said that yes, the band was on the brink of getting some very worthwhile gigs but that the string bass player was indeed playing out of tune...constantly. Huge decision to make for my friend since the band started as an amateur social get together. He couldn't bring himself to fire the bass player BUT he and the rest of the band had the luxury of well paying day jobs. When you're counting on every dollar it's a different story.

Oh, I made one suggestion that others have used in the past. You quit. then reform the band with the same people and a new bassist. (after a respectable interlude) It's the same thing though really....you're still gonna lose a friend.

Rick

Subject: RE: RE-Starting a Band. What a pain!
From: Mooh
Date: 21 Dec 00 - 09:02 AM

Thanks Rick, at least I'm not alone.

I could bore you to tears with my stories of band misconduct, but you wouldn't get any more from them than what's already been said here. Substance abuse and punctuality are my biggest complaints. Sometimes a willingness to haul gear will offset other problems. I get exasperated with folks who don't understand that if I have to carry the gear, set it up, help with sound, play my ass off, then clean up the mess at the end of it all, that I am entitled to at least an equal split of the take. Add to that the possibility that I mightn't get a decent rest and time to tune up makes for a pretty irritated me. No way to start a gig. I do my best to avoid this of course, but sometimes it just happens in spite of the best intentions. Oh oh, I'm venting.

Though I do have a band that works a little, I'm sort of between bands in as much as I don't have regular work at this moment. I'm thinking I'd like a duo, and I've got a couple of solo gigs coming up.

Out here in the boonies I gotta take my lumps. Mooh.

Subject: RE: RE-Starting a Band. What a pain!
From: Susan-Marie
Date: 21 Dec 00 - 04:24 PM

WOW. This is a great thread because it's giving me a window on a place I hope to be in a few years (playing real gigs, that is). I'm in a band that so far plays only parties and church functions, but we all get along GREAT! I had no idea what a big factor that will be in helping us prosper. Thanks everyone, for giving me that perspective. Good Luck Rick.

Subject: RE: RE-Starting a Band. What a pain!
From: Jim Krause
Date: 21 Dec 00 - 05:46 PM

Damn, Rick, you didn't look far enough. You sound like the kind of guy I would've liked working with. Punctuality, your take on rehearsals, lots of laughs, great fun on stage, spread the features around. Yeah, I could at least put up with that, heck even thrived. The only time I might be a little testy is when it comes to the sound check. But, if I've had a good night's rest, and a decent meal, there's lots I'd let slide here, assuming the Sound Tech shows some understanding of the band, and demonstrates basic competence, that is.

As regards my experience in bands, I have usually been the one who fired myself. One band I worked with, a fine group, and really decent fellows off stage, I realized I was always going to be a sideman, never a full partner. And by full partner, I mean submitting new material and arrangements for consideration, and taking my three hour shift at driving. (I use a prosthetic device when I drive. Perfectly safe.) Rather than alienate two friends, I found reasons to submit my resignation with no hard feelings.

The present band I'm in works wonderfully well together. Only problem is we don't play often enough to suit me. And rehearsals are thinly disguised jam sessions and then we all go out for beer at the local brew pub. That's the good part: the rehearsal/jams and the beer and laughs afterward. But when we get on stage, oh boy, it's usually magic. (I talked a little about that in another thread.)

Well, gotta go. They're closing down the lab.
Jim

Subject: RE: RE-Starting a Band. What a pain!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 22 Dec 00 - 12:56 AM

You know folks, in retrospect I did that part of it (forming bands) ALL WRONG. When I was looking at folks to play with, I should have STARTED with people with good personalities and the desire to learn, rather than first rate skills as the prime criterion. I've learned the hard way that you can encourage folks to become better players and singers.....but jerks will remain jerks to the end!

Despite having to earn my living at it, I've always played for fun. Period. Having good people around you is the best feeling in the world. I've read all the stories about Crosby Stills Nash and Young warring constantly and I can't imagine ANY amount of money making that fun.

Jim. You're probably right. I like your choice of songs....Oh well, in another life maybe.

Rick

Subject: RE: RE-Starting a Band. What a pain!
From: Little Neophyte
Date: 22 Dec 00 - 07:15 AM

".....I should have STARTED with people with good personalities and the desire to learn"
So Rick, when do I start?

This is an excellent thread and I have received amazing advise for the future.

Bonnie

Subject: RE: RE-Starting a Band. What a pain!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 22 Dec 00 - 12:26 PM

Bonnie, if you're ready to put a band together, go to some sessions, song circles, jams, etc. and hunt for somebody you think you could be married to without killing them. Ask them to be in your band....and start practicing. (sex is optional!)

Rick

Subject: RE: RE-Starting a Band. What a pain!
From: Whistle Stop
Date: 22 Dec 00 - 12:36 PM

Sex is optional?! Boy, do the guys in my band have some explaining to do!

Subject: RE: RE-Starting a Band. What a pain!
From: Jim Krause
Date: 22 Dec 00 - 01:40 PM

I dunno, I've seen sex ruin some good bands. It's the jealousy thing, I think. Nope, I think it's wiser to keep yer hands on yer musical instrument. ;-)

I wouldn't let geographical separation limit my choices in musicians with whom to form a band. If I found say two others who lived elsewhere, I think we could find ways of putting together a decent, well rehearsed show. This does assume, of course, that each one does his/her homework at home. And I did play in a band where two of the others lived quite far from me. We rehearsed for a few days before going on the road, and we did about two tours a year on average. It worked out OK, I think. I just decided to leave for other reasons.
Happy Holidaze, I'm offline until Jan. 9th Bye! Jim

Subject: Sex In Bands
From: Clinton Hammond2
Date: 22 Dec 00 - 03:04 PM

On the other hand there are a pair of single folk in my band right now that I happen to think would be very good for each other... But I haven't been encouraging anything except for a few half joking jibes at the guy...

I think it'd be kinda cool for them to get together... but if not, we're all still great friends as well...

;-)

Subject: RE: RE-Starting a Band. What a pain!
From: GUEST
Date: 22 Dec 00 - 03:42 PM

I have been struggling with putting together a band for 3 years. The first year was me alone honing my chops for the very stylized sound I heard in my head and off of ancient old memphis blues records. The second saw it come together with the exact instrumentation I wanted. I remember the feeling listening to play backs of early sessions "THAT'S IT!!!:)THAT'S F#$#@! IT!!!!!!WHOO-HOO". But, the fiddle player(it's always the fiddle player)turned out to be impossible to work with ,it wasn't a matter of getting along we are still friends, she just insane.Over the course of 8 months I struggled to make it work and innocently but incredibly frustratingly she was a human road block, a walking talking glitch. After we parted it was 6 months seeking a replacement, before finally putting it all together. Take heart, patients is a virtue and anything you really truly want or need is eventually handed to you by the Lord, Bless 'em. There is no substitute for a happy band that laughs together while they play together.It is the only road to a joyous sound. To those who are trying to start their own bands I offer this advice- 1) for ten thousand years people made music for love and maybe free food and drink, if money is your objective do something else 2)Even if you know exactly the sound you are looking for and have a mountain of material- allow it to change with others input, that is the nature of group music, give everyone a voice.3) Only work with people you like 4) MAKE MUSIC AND LAUGH LIKE THE CHANCE MAY NOT COME AGAIN, EACH TIME. -DAN

Subject: RE: RE-Starting a Band. What a pain!
From: InOBU
Date: 22 Dec 00 - 04:05 PM

Hi Bonnie... let me add one thing to Rick's advice, - or pick someone who you wouldn't miss WHEN you kill them...
:-0
Larry

Subject: RE: RE-Starting a Band. What a pain!
From: GUEST,LEJ
Date: 22 Dec 00 - 08:10 PM

Guest w/ the Four Rules...you make a hell of a lot of sense!

Subject: RE: RE-Starting a Band. What a pain!
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 22 Dec 00 - 09:29 PM

You're right guest...IT IS ALWAYS THE FIDDLER! Dammit, when are we gonna learn?

Actually right now (in the present..as we speak..currently..at this moment in time..) there is a friend of mine who I thought would be fabulous to work with. he's funny, reliable, has a car, likes traditional music.....and he went and got his wife pregnant again!!! with their third child!! Now he has NO SPARE TIME AT ALL!!

Fer Keerist's sake, ain't two kids enough? Where are his priorities? Oh well, in another 15 years or so, he'll be able to get back to music.

Ricky (Childless in Seattle...oops, Toronto)

Subject: RE: RE-Starting a Band. What a pain!
From: Barbara Shaw
Date: 22 Dec 00 - 10:47 PM

Hey Rick, you'd be dynamite in a bluegrass band!

I've actually been in two bands, both with my husband. The first band was after I'd been playing guitar for about 6 months, and it was a group of friends who got together to jam and then evolved into a local campus novelty. Somehow the dynamics were wrong, because I remember enjoying the jams and then coming home miserable after the rehearsals. It ruined a good time.

The second (current) band is fun, and it's more like rehearsals evolving into jams than the other way around. The people all have a great sense of humor (VERY important in my book). I'm also the only female, which may be an important factor, and although I'm the least accomplished musician, they all humor me. (Frank has to, anyway!) This group happened when Frank and I were looking for a fiddle, mandolin and bass player to help us out at a few benefits. All the others seemed to fizzle out until this particular combination, and I think it's the personalities that give it life. And the fact that they all let me be the token "leader." (Works for me . . .)

My advice is worthless, having so little experience, but I'll give it anyway: find compatible people you like to be with, make the rules known, make good music, have fun. Walk away if it isn't good.

Have you thought about teaching Heather to play banjo?

Subject: RE: RE-Starting a Band. What a pain!
From: Don Firth
Date: 23 Dec 00 - 08:48 PM

My own experience at working with groups may or may not be of any help to anyone, but at least I learned what I needed to know about myself.

Several times I was one of the parties involved in trying to form a group (this, incidentally, was back in the late Fifties-early Sixties). The trios, quartets, and larger never came close to getting off the ground. Lots of time rehearsing, but after a while it just wasn't fun anymore and they disintegrated, usually by unspoken mutual agreement. People just stopped showing up to rehearsals. I had better success with duos, but even those didn't last that long.

The first was with a young woman named Patti, who had been a good friend for years. We did a television show together, called "Ballads and Books" on KCTS, Seattle's PBS affiliate. Six live half-hour shows (this was before videotape). As a result, we got all sorts of calls to perform here and there, but both of us were attending the University of Washington at the time, and Patti was a more serious student than I was. Also, she was married. She felt she couldn't afford the time. Too bad. We sounded good and we worked well together. She lives in California now, and we still stay in touch.

My duo days with Bob Nelson lasted for less than a year and ended in a life-long friendship. He still lives in this area. We just started singing together for kicks, and wound up doing about twenty weeks together, three times a week, in one of Seattle's first coffeehouses (and actually got paid--not much, but paid), a couple of television shows, also on KCTS, several concerts, some school assemblies, and a bunch of other performances. We developed a big following in the Pacific Northwest, so we figured we were ready to make our fortune and went to the Bay Area. Turned out we were too commercial for Berkeley and too ethnic for San Francisco. We had a lot of fun and learned a lot, but when we ran out of money, we came back to Seattle. Bob got married shortly thereafter, acquired responsibilities, and had to make a living. Not much time left for practicing and gadding about, so we let it go.

The third and final was a young woman with a voice that could bend the walls out, named Judy. We did several college concerts together, then a big concert at the Seattle Center Playhouse. Terrific response. But we mostly swapped songs and sang only about six duets. We needed more duets. I was a hardnose for practicing and polishing. Judy was an avid skier. So that took care of that.

The group performances I have participated in that were the most fun for all concerned were ad hoc. Throw the group together for the purpose of that performance, with no particular plans to "form a group," practice together enough to know which versions of what songs we were doing, get some idea of what chords everybody planned to play, and just do it. What we lacked in polish, we more than made up for by having fun. And the fun rather than the lack of polish was what the audience pick up on.

To put together a professional musical group, you all have to be fixed on the same goal and be willing to make whatever sacrifices it will take. And sometimes, that's just too much to ask. Happily, Patti, Bob, and I remain the best of friends, which doesn't always happen. Judy move back East, and I haven't seen or heard from her for decades, but last I heard, she was still performing.

I learned that, as much as I loved working with these folks (and Bob and I still raise our voices together from time to time), I am basically a solo singer.

Don Firth