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bush sends a message to terrorists

InOBU 22 Dec 00 - 06:40 PM
catspaw49 22 Dec 00 - 06:44 PM
InOBU 22 Dec 00 - 06:49 PM
katlaughing 22 Dec 00 - 07:04 PM
InOBU 22 Dec 00 - 07:52 PM
Joe Offer 22 Dec 00 - 07:56 PM
Sorcha 22 Dec 00 - 08:17 PM
Greg F. 22 Dec 00 - 08:25 PM
Joe Offer 22 Dec 00 - 08:28 PM
Cobble 22 Dec 00 - 08:30 PM
Sorcha 22 Dec 00 - 08:40 PM
InOBU 22 Dec 00 - 09:08 PM
katlaughing 22 Dec 00 - 09:39 PM
Joe Offer 22 Dec 00 - 09:49 PM
GUEST,balderdash 22 Dec 00 - 09:50 PM
Joe Offer 22 Dec 00 - 09:58 PM
Sorcha 22 Dec 00 - 10:02 PM
Rick Fielding 22 Dec 00 - 10:10 PM
Sorcha 22 Dec 00 - 10:22 PM
GUEST,nathan tompkins 23 Dec 00 - 03:06 AM
InOBU 23 Dec 00 - 10:42 AM
Little Hawk 23 Dec 00 - 02:12 PM
InOBU 23 Dec 00 - 04:48 PM
Ebbie 23 Dec 00 - 05:49 PM
GUEST,LEJ 23 Dec 00 - 06:35 PM
InOBU 23 Dec 00 - 09:10 PM
BK 24 Dec 00 - 12:28 AM
katlaughing 24 Dec 00 - 12:38 AM
BK 24 Dec 00 - 09:07 AM
katlaughing 24 Dec 00 - 10:33 AM
Greg F. 24 Dec 00 - 11:01 AM
Little Hawk 24 Dec 00 - 03:19 PM
Little Hawk 24 Dec 00 - 03:36 PM
katlaughing 24 Dec 00 - 03:39 PM
Little Hawk 24 Dec 00 - 03:47 PM
Ebbie 24 Dec 00 - 05:30 PM
Troll 24 Dec 00 - 06:09 PM
InOBU 24 Dec 00 - 11:01 PM
DougR 25 Dec 00 - 12:28 AM
Little Hawk 25 Dec 00 - 12:49 AM
Sorcha 25 Dec 00 - 12:56 AM
Little Hawk 25 Dec 00 - 10:49 AM
InOBU 25 Dec 00 - 11:13 AM
GUEST,Stackley 25 Dec 00 - 01:05 PM
GUEST,Frank Hamilton 25 Dec 00 - 05:40 PM
Skeptic 25 Dec 00 - 06:17 PM
InOBU 25 Dec 00 - 06:57 PM
katlaughing 25 Dec 00 - 07:07 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Dec 00 - 07:22 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Dec 00 - 07:24 PM
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Subject: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: InOBU
Date: 22 Dec 00 - 06:40 PM

bush today, named sen. ashcroft to the possition of Att. Gen. a staunch anti abortion reactionary who has the distinction of being beaten in the last election by a dead man. So... the message he sends to the terrorists who are murdering doctors in this nation is obvious. Next to this nomination, I am tempted to call NJ the gardin state... By the by, the unofficial count of the ballots in Fla, not nearly finished has already found another 150 votes for Gore, Where is the outrage?
Any real democracy would be in the throws of a strike which would make Englands lorry drivers, last september look likes whimps.
Larry


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: catspaw49
Date: 22 Dec 00 - 06:44 PM

Larry, I just saw this one on the news and liked to died myself.....laughing. Geeziz, what's next? Is there something available for Elvis?

Spaw


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: InOBU
Date: 22 Dec 00 - 06:49 PM

Actually, now that you mention it, Have you ever seen Elvis and bush together!!!! There was a theory about CIA involvemnt in Elvis's death, maybe he replaced the dead son of the head of the CIA????????????????? Oh MY! Gotta run, they are beating down my door, I must be on to something REMEMBER ME!!!!!!!!!!Larry


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Dec 00 - 07:04 PM

I have not read anewspaper nor listened to the news on the radio or tv since Bush was supposedly the winner. I feel like I am in a Wasteland of Apathy as the majority of Wyoming is just tickled pink that he is in. I feel like just hunkering down and trying to maintain for the next four years and I know that isn't a good way to help anything change.

Probably part of why there is no outrage is everyone is still feeling pretty secure and happy from the years of Clinton and Alan Greenspan. It will take a year or two for all of it to sink it, which really just bums me out.

I cannot believe he actulaly put Ashcroft in such a position; looks to me as though the religious *wrong* are finally getting their agenda in the highest realm of the land and we'd better all mind our congresspeople and hold their feet to the fire of protecting our rights.

Nyes tunka, Loyla,

kat


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: InOBU
Date: 22 Dec 00 - 07:52 PM

Sar san, kat?: Turns out it was only an alien abduction, not the fed hit team. The effing little green jokers didn't even let me meet Elvis! How many years did I miss. I'm OK though, I just have a bad case of banjo head!
Larry


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Dec 00 - 07:56 PM

It's payback time, so I suppose it's inevitable that Bush will give appointments to a few archconservatives. If he really does want to honor his promise to take the middle road, you'd think he'd keep the extremists out of the most powerful positions. Still, I don't see that the appointment of Ashcroft does anything to promote terrorism - I don't see the logic there. Ashcroft may be opposed to abortion, but that doesn't mean he favors bombing abortion clinics.
-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: Sorcha
Date: 22 Dec 00 - 08:17 PM

Ha, Joe. Is that supposed to be funny? I'm with kat, here, and basically scared shitless. Just what COULD we do, Larry? I can't drive to Washington and sit around in the snow........wouldn't do any good anyway.....not with Mr. Cheney being "from" Wyoming. I guess I could stop paying bills, or something like that, *BG* I guess we all just better hope Kate doesn't get pregnant in the next 4 years......


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: Greg F.
Date: 22 Dec 00 - 08:25 PM

If he really does want to honor his promise to take the middle road,
Um, Ah, Joe, I think you know better than that, Dontcha? :-)

Scary times- & gonna get a lot scarier yet.

Best, Greg


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Dec 00 - 08:28 PM

Well, no, Sorcha - but I kinda think it's best to approach problems with logic. Is there any evidence the guy favors terrorism, or that he favors the bombing of abortion clinics?
-Joe-


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: Cobble
Date: 22 Dec 00 - 08:30 PM

If anybody is scared of a second count they are liars and cheats and gutless. Paying of there win with daddys unearned money. Sorry catters in the states, but a law that lets a load of one sided judges decide there party is right is bent. Thank God we have recounts in this country that are not party political. I feel sorry for you that you let these0 one sided bigots decide for you instead of the only genuine way A RECOUNT.

A man with a choice Cobble.


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: Sorcha
Date: 22 Dec 00 - 08:40 PM

Actually, I think the only fair way would have been a RE VOTE in Florida.......but that will never happen!!


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: InOBU
Date: 22 Dec 00 - 09:08 PM

Hi Joe:
Endorcement of terrorisim happens when there is unequal prosicution of violent criminals - especially when there is a politic behind the violence. To give an example, when Regan was in office a young fellow named ... damn it will come to me before the end of the post, I used to speak with him often, he was a reckless young fellow with strong humanist beliefs, who did some things that I would say were wrong and unwise, even though they were driven by real careing about his fellow humans. Well one day he was arrested for having dynamite, and the state conviced a jury that he was planing to blow up the capitol, though he had taken no actions towards that, or had any written plans, or had said to anyone that he intended to do that... ah, Tim Blunk is his name. He was given 75 years in jail, no bombs went off, 75 years in jail. On the other hand, Orlando Bosh, who blew up a cuban aircraft, was never charged, let go on bail whenever he was arested, even after he was caught driving around Miami with a torpedo on a boat trailer, on his way to blow up a russian ship in our harbor. Bombers who have actualy blown up clinics have been given as little as under a year in jail. What we need to make women and doctors safe is an AJ who will make the protection of colinics a priority. The message bush sends is, this is not a proiorty.
Cheers,
Larry


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: katlaughing
Date: 22 Dec 00 - 09:39 PM

My misto, Loyla, nyes tuka (ah, I had it spelled wrong last time! And, sometime, I really need to learn the proper pronunciation, too:-)

I agree with you, Sorcha and Greg. The far right has been methodically building their base, from the school boards and city councils on up for over 20 years now. This is something I've studied and written about for several years. Their goal always has been to get to the top and change this country back to what they think it once was - god-fearing, woman-hating, enslaving, elitist, etc. They will continue to get their way unless there is a concerted effort, a grassroots groundswell, and much as I love the internet and the communication it engenders, I don't know if it is good for motivating people to take to the streets; it seems too easy, in a way, to sit at one's computer and just watch it all happen or not.

My youngest daughetr who is 23 has always said there would be a revolution involving her generation; I hope the majority of them have been raised like her and are not clones of the far right, but I guess if they were there wouldn't be a need, if it ever comes to pass there will have to be an antagonist, right?

Sorcha is right, though, Loyla, I am sorry to say. We who are in the rural areas cannot travel so far, leaving behind all of our family and responsibilities and if we tried to take action here we would be villified, possibly worse. My studies of hate crimes in Wyoming has made me careful and sometimes, I hate to say it because it is not my nature, but also circumspect. I guess if we want to do any good, we are going to have to move where there are a few more of our stripes, eh? I pretty much wrote Wyoming off a long time ago for any kind of enlightened change.

Lash drom, Loyla,

le grá argus? meas,

kat


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Dec 00 - 09:49 PM

You may have a point, Larry. I'm pleased to see the appointment of Colin Powell as Secretary of State, but it made the right-wingers very angry. The appointment of Ashcroft appears to be an attempt to appease the right-wingers. Now, if he had announced the Attorney General first, he could have gotten away with appointing a moderate. Powell is a shoo-in for State, so he could have been announced after the Attorney General.

Can't say I know much about Ashcroft, other than that he was one of the "Singing Senators." What I've read of him seems to indicate that he's conservative, but maybe not irrationally so.

I guess I don't know what to think about the abortion issue. There's all sorts of rhetoric and accusations going around, but very little in that way of factual information that you can really believe. The outspoken people on both sides of the issue seem to be irrational.

I think I'd call myself pro-choice and anti-abortion - which is a position that gets me in hot water with both liberals and conservatives. I think the decision to have an abortion is not one to be taken lightly - but it is a decision that should be made by the pregnant woman, not controlled by legislation. In general, I'd say that abortion is not a good thing, and widespread abortion is an indication that there may be a serious problem in our society. Birth control is a far better solution, but many of the anti-abortion people and the powers-that-be in the Catholic Church are dead set against birth control.

I searched the Web for information about Ashcroft, but didn't find anything that specifically described his opinion on the abortion issue.

-Joe Offer, radical moderate- (nobody likes me - I think for myself and honor no ideology)


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: GUEST,balderdash
Date: 22 Dec 00 - 09:50 PM

Yep they should a recounted several more times until Gore won or at least registered a few more dead people to vote for Gore or instructed those who didn't understand english how to work the machines...


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: Joe Offer
Date: 22 Dec 00 - 09:58 PM

Or, they could have counted ALL the ballots the first time, and then people would have been a lot more satisfied with the results. As it is now, we'll always wonder. It's not a matter of understanding how to operate the machines, because there were no machines. But yes, it is difficult for many old people to read a poorly-designed ballot, or to push a punch all the way through a ballot then there are ten chad blocking the hole below the punch. Since the election in Florida was too close to call, they should have just split the electoral votes.

-Joe Offer-


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: Sorcha
Date: 22 Dec 00 - 10:02 PM

Actually, Joe, I think that is my position on abortion too. Not a good thing, but perhaps a necessary evil.....but as long as there are lobbies against birth control........oh well.

As my brother says, "In the best of all possible worlds, SHIT STILL HAPPENS........"


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 22 Dec 00 - 10:10 PM

Hi Folks. I have no idea how far ahead these appointments are planned before they're announced, but I will fill you in on something you may not be aware of (or at least the intensity of it)

I often listen to Rush Limbaugh, G.Gordon Liddy, and Ollie North. No I haven't become a moronic "ditto-head". I listen for the same reasons I watch Evangelists on TV, and occasionally buy "The National Post" (Canada's Right wing rag). My sense of humour is verrrry dark (remember I'm the one who thought Andy Kauffman was brilliant) and I laugh constantly at their glorification of the "half-truth", and ability to turn greed into a sacrement. But mostly it keeps me focused on why I believe what I do. Plus I find I have an unhealthy need to be well informed about what the "other side" is up to.

Well, let me tell you, Dubya has been taking a HUGE amount of heat from these guys (who are supposed to be his allies) after his first three appointments. Two blacks and a Hispanic (no matter how safe and "government approved", they are) are three too many, to a lot of his supporters. The attitude seems to be "Hey George, you've won! Why all the sucking up?" I suspect the pressure is on him, big time. So I wasn't surprised at his next few picks. Ten to one, he's a huge "Rush fan",(they apparently ARE friends) and he won't be wanting the daily criticism.....ESPECIALLY when any new vote counts come to light. Watch out for any future Supreme Court appointees as well. My guess is that they'll try to appear moderate until after confirmation...then watch out.

Rick


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: Sorcha
Date: 22 Dec 00 - 10:22 PM

and just where are the women? Not to mention, "breeding capable women".....meaning any under 50......


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Subject: Lyr Add: The Ballad Of Ashcroft
From: GUEST,nathan tompkins
Date: 23 Dec 00 - 03:06 AM

The Ballad Of Ashcroft
(tune: Singing the spirit Home)

They voted against him in the evenin' an hour after the closin'.
The pale white moon was waning in the Missouri sky.
The hotel doors flew wide open. They stood looking at him.
He saw no mercy in their hearts. No pity in their eyes.

Shame, shame, shame,
How many politicians feel this a-way??
To some it is a way of life. To others just a word.
To some it is a snow white dove. To some a bloody sword.
But until the last jests fall.
Our shame will make slaves of us all.

As they poked him and they jabbed him, The endless cameras flashed him
He felt his courage leave him, his manhood disappear
His legs would not support him, so in the newspapers they dragged him
He sobbed and screamed and cursed them in his loneliness and fear

With faces closed and hidden the reporters walked beside him
Indifferent to his pleading, they'd been down this path before
But other eyes were watching other ears were listening.
Other hearts beat with him in his lonesome desperate hour

Shame, shame, shame,
How many politicians feel this a-way??
To some it is a way of life. To others just a word.
To some it is a snow white dove. To some a bloody sword.
But until the last jests fall.
Our shame will make slaves of us all.

From the darkness of the White House came the sound of his brothers singing
"Courage" their voices told him "You do not walk alone"
From their offices beyond the shadow, he heard their voices echo
As in love and pride and sorrow they sang his spirit home

Their song of hope and greedom rang inside that mansion
It beat against the wooden desks and hammered at the walls
As in their mirth and jests they goaded him, the next sound that filled his being
Was his brothers singing, singing his spirit home

Have courage brother you do not walk alone.
We shall walk with you and sing your spirit home.

nathan tompkins


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: InOBU
Date: 23 Dec 00 - 10:42 AM

Hi Joe:
You gotta hang out in more radical circles, you'll find your pro choice - anti abortion stand is main streem on the left. In fact, the battle for choice has included an attempt to instruct sex with responcibility and even, when apropriate abstance - not in the "C"hristian interpretation of , say yes and you go to hell, but in the "no" means "NO!" vien. The battle has also been to get safer and methods of abortion when that terrible option is the choice of a woman who makes that choice and better forms of birth control, all of which has been a battle agaist the religious right that would, given their druthers make a "C"hristian Iran or Afganistan out of this republic.
All the best, as this Christmas approaches and we are awaiting the sobering up Santa, and dusting off the reindeer...
Larry


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: Little Hawk
Date: 23 Dec 00 - 02:12 PM

You Americans who consider yourselves liberals should not despair because Bush got in. Believe me, the country will survive 4 years of Republican administration. It has before, and it will again. It survived 8 years of Reagan, who couldn't even count his jelly beans and get the same number twice in a row. What the hell, things could be worse, right? Maybe Dubya isn't all that bad anyway.

As a Canadian, I can tell you this...you are virtually all born right from the start as either Democrats or Republicans...which means...you are born into an existing set of mythological ideas which you unconsciously mould into your political reality. If you're born into a Democratic family, then you see everything through that set of glasses. If Republican, then the other set. It's very difficult, if not impossible, for either Democrats or Republicans to be truly impartial or objective about what the other is doing or saying. Ergo, it's virtually impossible for either to be fair or reasonable toward the other over political issues.

Needless to say, neither one of those parties has been sanctioned by heaven (take my word on this). They both will say ANYTHING and promise ANYTHING in order to get themselves elected. They are both motivated by self-interest, and desire to perpetuate themselves. They do it at the expense of the general public.

The only way you, as a people, could become totally rational and truly free is IF THE DEMOCRATIC AND REPUBLICAN PARTIES CEASED TO EXIST! And if all other parties likewise ceased to exist, and you voted for individual people instead, and formed a goverment which worked as a circle of equals, not as a house divided against itself.

Sadly, I fear that is not going to happen. I wish it would.

In Canada, I wish the same thing would happen...because our stupid political parties mislead the public here in exactly the same fashion...although the influence of BIG money, hidden control, and corruption is still less here than in the USA.

The grand political illusion of our age is that competitive political parties can produce a democratic and humanistic system. They cannot. There needs to be a whole new system of forming governments, not these divisive and corrupt elections that masquerade as democratic process.

There also needs to be a world government, with a world bill of rights, and a consistent system of justice, and a world security force to enforce it. Otherwise the haves will simply continue to enslave the have-nots, while keeping the middle class pacified with empty consumerism, and most of us will contine to suffer in one way or another, falling way short of the full potential of a human life, so that a very few can live in unheard of luxury and privilege. "The Big Ones Get Away"...with murder.

I mean this in all seriousness.

Regards,

- LH


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: InOBU
Date: 23 Dec 00 - 04:48 PM

Dear Brother Little Hawk:
Though God willing, many of us will survive a republican administration, I know from past expeirnce that there will be real casualities. As I see a successful terror campain closeing women's health clinics, without an agressive deffence of this right we will see more than the death of young girls forced to attempt to self abort, as happened to a girl in my high school homeroom class many decades ago, but we will see casualities among poor women who cannot get basic health care due them as a result of the closing of women's health clinics.
I appreciate you sentiment though, life goes on for most of us.
Cheers

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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: Ebbie
Date: 23 Dec 00 - 05:49 PM

Quote: As a Canadian, I can tell you this...you are virtually all born right from the start as either Democrats or Republicans...which means...you are born into an existing set of mythological ideas which you unconsciously mould into your political reality. If you're born into a Democratic family, then you see everything through that set of glasses. If Republican, then the other set. Enquote

Little Hawk, I'm sure there are a great many of us who do not fit into that mo(u)ld. I, for instance, was born into a very conservative family- I have no real doubt that they approved of the John Birch Society-and it's true that I first registered as a Republican and my first time out, I voted for Nixon. (Luckily, he didn't make it that time!)

In the next four years I became a tad more sensitized to realities and changed my registration to Independent/Nonpartisan, where I have remained. In local elections I voted only for individuals, never by party, but in practice I have rarely voted for a Republican candidate, especially in recent years.

In national elections, I lodged mostly protest votes. Jimmy Carter was my first successful candidate. Bill Clinton was my second one.

In other words I think the only way that my family's bent influenced me is that it perhaps makes me look more carefully at a candidate in order to decide for myself. I'm sure that I'm not alone in this.

I don't have a whole lot of patience with the 'ideal political world' promulgated by some. In the first place, I don't think there is such a thing. Secondly, it ain't gonna happen and I prefer to remind myself of things as they are and work from there.

I have no problem believing that either or both of the major parties in this country will change or even disappear- they've done it in the past- but in the meantime we have to work with what we've got.

No offense intended, Little Hawk.

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: GUEST,LEJ
Date: 23 Dec 00 - 06:35 PM

So far Bush has appointed most of his cabinet posts from the center.There's a possibility that he may be able to reach consensus between Democrats and Republicans.Personally,I will hold off on my criticisms until he screws up.

LEJ

Member,Loyal Opposition


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: InOBU
Date: 23 Dec 00 - 09:10 PM

He screwed up, Check out who he nominated for Att. Gen. - Larry


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: BK
Date: 24 Dec 00 - 12:28 AM

Here in Mighty Mo, Ashcroft is widely & appaprently accurately credited as opposing the appointment of a very well qualified Black for judgeship, and yes, he was defeated by a dead man. Also here in Missouri a republican election official was caught throwing out Gore votes & said it's OK, cause "God wants Bush to win.. "

I'm with Joe; a Radical Moderate who dislikes abortion only marginally less than I dislike the idea of polititians telling a woman what to do w/her body. As Molly Ivins, the co-author of "Shrub -The Short But happy Political Life Of George W. Bush"* states, (I'm paraphrasing) since the polititians b.s. all the time, the best way to know what they will do in the future is to see what they REALLY did in the past (not what lies they, or their spin-doctoring lie machines, tell abt it). *Vintage Books, 2000 (vintagebooks.com) ISBN 0-375-75714-7, authors Molly Ivans & Lou Dubose. Shrub's record is generally appalling - but read it yourselves.

I must very strongly reccomend this book for those who might want to know what shrub's got in store for the nation. I have well educated, sophisticated, high-church & stock portfolio type (but ethical in spite of that!) friends in Texas who watch the political scene intently & insist that Molly Ivin's reporting is quite accurate, giving a true picture of the man whose family & connections appaprently just trashed the foundation of democracy (free elections) & bought him the white house.

My own catholic family disagree bitterly w/my politics, mostly the abortion issue, & express varrying degrees of hostiliy. Because of my expressed disgust over the election, one invited me to leave the country & is beginning to sound scary. He is VERY VERY VERY against abortion (single, aging bachelor.. & will do whatever..?? He's certainly happy to endorse election fraud in the name of God..) I haven't replied to his last angry message.. yet..

He had gleefully sent me an e-mail w/an attatched sub-program displaying "another florida ballot." It makes an exaggerated (supposed to ba a joke..) point abt Gore rigging the ballots in florida & won't let you close til you are forced to vote for Gore three times. It is pure "big lie" propaganda, clearly saying that in the state run by shrub's brother & the right wing macine - where the ballots were perverted by shrub's people & the election was probably fraudulently given to shrub - the bad guy was Gore.

Although I voted for him as the best practical choice, I'm not crazy abt Gore, but this is a particularly heinous type of propaganda. Making the victom out to look like the perpetrator & the criminal to be the victom is what has often been done to raped women. (Probably an apt analogy to what happenned to the country due the Florida mess.) I can e-mail this piece of sleazy propaganda to anyone who wants to view it first hand.

As w/my kin, the so-called right-to-lifers apparently will tolerate, blindly ignore or endorse just abt any other consequences to get the power to cram their anti-abortion notions down our throats.. Along w/this they get environmental disaster in favor of big business, "creation science," & a host of other wonders of the modern spin machine..

For them the precious rights many bled & died for are as nothing compared to the balancing righteous might of the abortion issue. & there are no other moral/ethical/civic issues that can even be considered - & nobody else can have an opinion (other than as instructed by the TV preachers.) Makes me wanna puke..

Cheers, BK

Who is bummed out by the farce of an election.. here in the heartland.... & has to go to bed, I'm on call this week.


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Dec 00 - 12:38 AM

BK, thank you very much. Well-said and scarey!

Joe, I think you will find many of us agree pretty much with you on the abortion issue; there are those of us who will not stand for any encroachment on a woman's right to govern her own body, no matter what. The far right does not advocate birth control, either, so we could be in for a real fight.

BK, thanks for the book recommendation. I already have one of Molly books and will gladly seek out this one. I'd give my eye teeth if my columns were anywhere near as good as hers; she always been one of my writing heros to look up to for inspiration.

Hope you have a quiet and uneventful on-call.

kat


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: BK
Date: 24 Dec 00 - 09:07 AM

Kat: you must have some POWERFUL magic! I slept thru the entire night for the first time since monday. Wow!

Read the book; you'll be impressed

Cheers, BK


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Dec 00 - 10:33 AM

Well, we aim to please, BK! Heehee! Glad to hear it and I will read it, thanks!


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: Greg F.
Date: 24 Dec 00 - 11:01 AM

Kat-

Don't read it when in a bad mood- if you dislike Dubya NOW, after reading the book you'll be thoroughly disgusted. Not only at Dubya, but with those who continue to apologize for him.

Don't pick it up until after the Holidays! ;-)

Best of the Season to All,
Greg


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Dec 00 - 03:19 PM

Hi guys,

I too am deeply suspicious of the Republicans, and would rather the Democrats had gotten in, despite the fact that I have little faith in either of them.

And yes, I do realize that some Americans do change their party affiliation as time goes by, or become independents. It's just that most of them don't, and that is what concerns me.

In Canada, I would say that the majority of kids born into families that voted Liberal end up voting Liberal themeselves most of the time...same goes for those born into Conservative families...or socialist families (the NDP). Fortunately there is a socialist party in Canada...they have even managed to form provincial governments on numerous occasions, but have never taken more than about 20% of the national vote, as far as I know.

There have been attempts to form a "right-of-center" party in this country too, mostly pretty unsuccessful. The Canadian public doesn't go much for either political extreme in the final analysis, but votes for a moderate centrist position.

- LH


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Dec 00 - 03:36 PM

Regarding Bush "sending a message to terrorists"...I think Dubya might be surprised to find out that those same terrorists think of themselves as "freedom fighters", and consider the USA to be a terrorist nation.

We should look at what is the definition of the word "terrorist". I think it means someone, anyone, who spreads terror through acts of violence or threats of violence, especially when that terror is directed toward helpless and innocent people, such as civilians.

On that basis, much of the world presently regards the USA as a terrorist nation. After all, the USA has routinely dropped bombs on small countries, mined their harbours (in Vietnam and Nicaragua), financed invasions of their territory by paramilitary formations (routinely referred to by people like Dubya as "freedom fighters"), dropped A-bombs on Japanese cities (unnecessarily, BTW), defoliated jungles and crop areas with chemicals, and so on ad nauseum.

Anyone on the receiving end of these actions probably thinks of American forces and their allies as "terrorists", while they think of their own fighters as "freedom fighters".

And so the world turns...

Terrorism by a national government is still terrorism, just as much as terrorism by people in the Islamic Jihad or the IRA. Just because some president okays it, doesn't mean it is not terrorism.

Terrorism will never be ended by counter-terrorism. It will not be ended by violence. Only actual redress of people's real greivances will end it.

I don't think Bush cares about that, or could be bothered too, providing those people live outside the borders of corporate America.

Ever noticed when an airplane crashes somewhere, your news services tell you right away how many Americans died? As if the other people weren't really human...

We do the same in Canada. It's sick.

- LH


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: katlaughing
Date: 24 Dec 00 - 03:39 PM

Thanks, Greg, I will wait, as yu've got it right, I can't stand to even look at him now, so it will be worse after I've been *Ivinsed*!

Little Hawk, no offense, but I do find your broad and sweepng pronouncements about us Americans to be a tad presumptious.

kat


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: Little Hawk
Date: 24 Dec 00 - 03:47 PM

Well, Kat, I know what you mean. Actually, I can be just as sweeping about other nationalities as well, including my own Canadians. I do try to use words like "most" and "virtually" when making those sweeping statements, so as to show that I don't mean ALL of you...

It's actually your government and your media that I can't stand. Americans as individuals I like just fine.

I did spend 10 years living in the USA and went through most of my grade school and high school there, so I do have a good deal of practical exposure to "the land of the free and the home of the brave". All countries are full of their own mythology and their own blindspots, and if you live in some different ones it gets easier to see how that works. The thing that sets the USA apart is that it's so powerful and heavily armed...rather like a present day Rome bestriding the world like a collossus. Furthermore, the relentless commercial marketing of American culture is robbing many other places of much of their own culture...just as the Romans did to the numerous smaller nations all around them. They were not well liked for it. That's one of the prices of empire building.

Anyway, no offense taken at my end.

- LH


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: Ebbie
Date: 24 Dec 00 - 05:30 PM

Quote: The thing that sets the USA apart is that it's so powerful and heavily armed...rather like a present day Rome bestriding the world like a collossus. Furthermore, the relentless commercial marketing of American culture is robbing many other places of much of their own culture...just as the Romans did to the numerous smaller nations all around them. They were not well liked for it. That's one of the prices of empire building.

Ah, Little Hawk... I'm taking umbrage again! Please differentiate between the USA GOVERNMENT and the USA citizens, just as you would when talking about any other country.

In our day to day lives we are people just like you- we work, we play, we laugh, we cry, we love, we despair and we hope... We don't go throwing our weight around- We are human beings, some of us are Mensch, some are weasely slimeballs, some are in between...

Citizens of other countries who are not happy with the McD's and the Walmarts and whatever else, when it comes down to it, have only themselves to blame. Money is the driving force - if a property owner in that country was not interested in money, he/she would not sell the land or take on the franchise that is offered. The same thing is true here: if the franchise offerers were not interested in making money they would not make the effort to expand into other countries.

It is no more fair to blame the US people for what our government does or how our government is perceived than it is for us to blame the citizens of other countries for okaying the franchises. In both cases, some people are happy with it and others are appalled.

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: Troll
Date: 24 Dec 00 - 06:09 PM

And every time something goes wrong in the world, everyone looks at America and says "Do Something!"
So don't put us down because we are armed. We have been thrust into the role of cops of the world. For example, Kosovo was and is a European problem but guess who is there "keeping the peace"?
Ashcroft did not campaign after his opponents death, nor did he challenge any of the vote count. In doing so he allowed his dead opponents widow to win an important seat. To me, this bespeaks a kind of gallantry that apparently most of you do not wish to recongize. So much more soul-satisfying to say beaten by a dead man because you don't agree with his beliefs.
Re: the A-Bomb and Japan. Those bombs were dropped to save American lives. Period. It was estimated that it would have cast many thousands of American lives had we been forced to invade the Main Islands.
I have read the books by the apologists and they are just that, apologies written by prople who are and were so damn afraid of a nuclear war that they would tell any lie and reinforce any rumor that would forward their agenda. The lie that Hiroshima and Nagasake were purely civilian targets is a good example. There was military manufacturing gioning on in both cities, in particular, small arms parts. This was being done in small factories and not huge complexes.
I would also strongly suggest that everyone read about the rape of Nanking and about Shanghai where tens of thousands of Chinese civilians were slaughtered by the Japanese AFTER those cities had surrendered.
It might give you a little better understanding of haw the leaders of the US felt toward Japan.

troll


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: InOBU
Date: 24 Dec 00 - 11:01 PM

Ah Troll, old brother, here we go agian:
Many historians, and I among them, feel the a bombs were used to insure that Russia did not take territory in an already beaten Japan. As many people died in the arial bombing of Tokio, as died in Hiroshima, and though it would have taken a few more air raids, the same thing could have been acomplished with tactical weapons. We used the A Bomb to send a message to the soviet union which we continued to send until we destroyed the soviet union and helped to establish the present criminocracy there.
Little Hawk, (also my brother!) As to the IRA being a terrorist organisation, please read posts from last year about the Doherty case, and other posts which evidence was presented from American courts, that leaned towards England, yet becasue of impariality of the system, England's contention the the IRA was a terrorist organisation was defeted. Actualy, to you credit, your definition is close to the legal definition, and the making of war against civilian poplulations is in fact, the main part of the definition, which England was not able to show in the case of the IRA, even given much greater legal resourses, and courts leaning in their favor.
I would agree, that the US, as with most modern industrial nations, is in fact, a promoter of, and is guilty of terrorism, not the least has been the genocidal war against the indigionous populaiton of Turtle Island (contenental America).
Well an hour to go until Christmas, so I will continue this, if there is more about this, on Saint Stephen's day.
A peaceful and joyful Christmas to all
Larry


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: DougR
Date: 25 Dec 00 - 12:28 AM

Larry: I don't want to be unkind, but you are a lawyer! If you want to be taken seriously as a professional, as most lawyers do, why don't you consult a dictionary before you post messages? Your arguments would be so much more credible, if the words were spelled right!

Do you own a dictionary?

Your political philosophy is another thing. It's yours, you have a right to it, is is compeletely foreign to mine, but you have a right to it. This thread that you posted is, in my opinion, dumb. Bush isn't even president yet, and the scavengers are out to get him.

Disgusting.

DougR


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Dec 00 - 12:49 AM

Ebbie - you said "Citizens of other countries who are not happy with the McD's and the Walmarts and whatever else, when it comes down to it, have only themselves to blame. Money is the driving force - if a property owner in that country was not interested in money, he/she would not sell the land or take on the franchise that is offered. The same thing is true here: if the franchise offerers were not interested in making money they would not make the effort to expand into other countries."

Absolutely! Dead right! Right on! I agree with you entirely. It is the love of money for money's sake alone, rather than a more complete awareness of cause and effect that is misleading people everywhere in the world. Money was created to be a useful tool of exchange and nothing more than that. It has become a dominating obsession. I am well aware that ordinary Americans are just the same as people in Canada or anywhere else, and I certainly don't mean to attack ordinary Americans for what their government does.

Troll - Regarding the A-bombs... There was actually no necessity whatsoever to invade mainland Japan at all. Japan was already actively seeking a surrender arrangement, making clumsy and rather pathetic efforts to establish contact with the USA through Russian dimplomatic channels. The USA was also quite aware of that (through its secret service operatives), although the Russians had not endeavoured to pass the info on, because they were cynically planning to attack the Japanese anyway in the last weeks of the war, and did NOT want the fighting to stop until they had done so.

Japan had already been rendered impotent. Its navy was virtually entirely destroyed, its cities were mostly bombed out, its merchant marine had pretty well ceased to exist. Where the hell did "unconditional surrender" come from anyway? Ulysses S. Grant, that's who. Countries used to fight until one was clearly beaten, and then they would establish an armistace, which is a "conditional" surrender. That's what the Japanese were seeking, their only real condition being the safety of the Emperor, who was considered as virtually a god by his people. MacArthur, fortunately, appreciated that, and helped to make sure that the Emperor was not put on trial or, worse yet, executed! Fifty million Japanese civilians would probably have willingly died fighting in the streets with bamboo sticks rather than see that happen.

As for the rape of Nanking by the Japanese troops, it was worse than anything the USA did in that war. That, however, in no way justifies returning one atrocity for another, does it?

Wars should be fought in order to win, NOT to exact vengeance...and when they are over, then take some advice from Abe Lincoln, and show "malice toward none, charity to all".

MacArthur did just that, treating the Japanese public very well after the war, and they responded by being totally cooperative, and becoming highly valuable allies of postwar America.

Merry Christmas, and keep the peace.

- LH


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: Sorcha
Date: 25 Dec 00 - 12:56 AM

What a mess......I tend to agree with both Little Hawk and kat.....and they don't agree with each other, LOL! Look what I got e mail from my cousin..can't figure out just why, but it mad me mad as hell:

Subject: AMERICA

Ever have times when you think our country gets a bad rep? Please read the article from Canada below and cheer up, we aren't so bad after all!

TRIBUTE TO THE UNITED STATES

This, from a Canadian newspaper, is worth sharing. America: The Good Neighbor.
Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television commentator. What follows is the full text of his trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record

"This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth. Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States.

When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it.

When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped.

The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans.

I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American Planes?

Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles.

You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon - not once, but several times - and safely home again.

right in the store window for everybody to look at . Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here.

When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke.

I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake

Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those."


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Dec 00 - 10:49 AM

Yeah, that one must've been written by one of Conrad Black's board members or something. Phooey! I consider the Vietnam draft-dodgers as heroes, and men of conscience. My guitar teacher in the 70's was one such, and he was one of the most intelligent, exemplary, and downright excellent people I have ever had the pleasure to know. He was far too intelligent to consent to being shipped off to Asia to shoot and blow up Vietnamese peasants. Time has shown the wisdom of his decision.

- LH


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: InOBU
Date: 25 Dec 00 - 11:13 AM

Dear DougR
To be more accurate, as a judge, I don't give a fig about the trappings of professionalism. I think that integrity lies elsewhere then the old boy network of that particular community, which is why I am quite pleased to have a bench in a Native community, where other ones integrity is wieghed by a different standard.
As to my spelling, I am one of the only, no, the only learning disable law student during my time at NYU, who was open about my disability, for the simple reason that I did not want to be bound by the prejudices which mark my profession. This gave me the freedom to advocate for the rights of the other six LD students, and be able to lecture at public school LD classes on the fact that, though people call you slow or stupid, being learning disable is not about cognative differnces and should not be a bar to success. I got into a school, without special accomodation, which ranked just below Harvard and Yale.
As to owning a dictionary, I have one and when I need to I lend it out to my law clerks, when I employ them, and at all other times, I use it to press flowers.
For those who are offended by my spelling, who feel I am being rude, by not going to the dicitonary every other word, a note about learning disabilites. I would not recognise a mispelled word, generally, so I have to have others proof my work.
As to my world view bing stupid, or disgusting, well that is a subjective point of view, that is not shared by, well Nom Chompsky, for one, a fellow who has a similar world outlook, called by the New York Times, the smartist man in the US. Well, that's what makes horse races...
Merry Christmas, old friend
Peace in the new year.
Larry


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: GUEST,Stackley
Date: 25 Dec 00 - 01:05 PM

Just Brilliant, Dougie! Jam that foot a little further in your mouth, eh?

Better to stick to your usual routines of picking on welfare recipients, the poor, widows, orphans & such. Or are you graduating to thumping on the disabled?

Just have to love these "compassionate conservatives"!
Cheers.


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: GUEST,Frank Hamilton
Date: 25 Dec 00 - 05:40 PM

I think that Bush has shown the country already what he is going to do. It was evident from his tenure in Texas. What Bush means by "in-te-gri-ty" is that Ashcroft is a fundamentalist in his religion. Whether he can be objective about certain legal issues is questionable.

Bush's message about terrorists is basically a Rambo rant. He is trying to convey that he will be a strong president. It seems that this kind of sabre rattling is characteristic of many right wing politicos. It's an appeal to the angry reactionaries who buy into it.

I don't see Ashcroft personally going out of his way to bomb abortion clinics but I do see a possible bias when it comes to making arrests of anti-abortion terrorists.

I don't think anyone in their right mind thinks that abortions are desirable. Necessary maybe. Pro-choice doesn't mean that abortions are considered to be great. That's a fallacy. But they are sometimes needed. Using antagonistic rhetoric such as "baby killer" or other inane judgements serves to cloud the real issue about how to deal with the problem of overpopulation, birth control, and the countless children who are abused and suffering through malnutrition in America.

Ashcroft may be one of those who will muddy the waters. There is a case when one's fundamentalist religious affiliation casts doubt upon their ability to exercise objective legal judgement.

He may not be a terrorist himself. But under what conditions would he support abortion clinic miscreants?

Frank Hamilton


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: Skeptic
Date: 25 Dec 00 - 06:17 PM

Larry, Well said. I never was a fan of style over substance. Agree with you or not, I'm much more interested in the ideas, not the spelling. My prejudice is against ad homium attacks.(Unless directed at troll-sorry, couldn't resist). I go into reactive mode and heavily discount what's being argued.

On the A Bomb issue. After Hiroshima, the Japenese did forward a message to the State Department agreeing to discuss unconditional surrender. It was mistranslated by the State Department.

In hindsight, the use of the A bombs seems wrong. At the time it looked like their were only two other alternatives. A massive invasion or total blockade. (ethier of which assumed allied casualities in the tens of thousands and civilian deaths in the hundreds of thousands or millions. Add to this the fact that probably the only people who could appreciate the destructive power of the A bomb were a bunch of scientests in New Mexico who were out of the decision making loop. I disagree with troll's contention that the bombing was done with some underlying military rationale. (And troll, characterizing those who argued against the bombing as apologists who were afraid of nuclear war is begging the question. Some were but many were not. Its like crying "liberal media conspiracy" to avoid dealing with a substantive issue.) With those alternatives plus a misunderstanding of the power and long term effects of the Bomb (and the real fear that Russia had entered the war solely to grab land), the basis of the decision is more understandable. The key is that those making the decisions simply didn't understand what a nuclear explosion meant. To them it was just another really big bomb. And it was meant to terrorize, with maybe a little bit of vengeance thrown in. Look at the fire bombing of Dresden or Hamburg. (Not to claim that justifies but shows the mind set). Saying there were scattered small manufacturing plants may well have been true. But I've rarely seen that used except as a sort of "oh yeah, and besides that there were these small factories...." kind of agreement. Why look for malice when something can be explained by stupidity, lack of forethought and prejudice.

Where does terrorism end and national self interest begin? Certainly to certain parties in the Middle East, Desert Storm was internationally sanctioned terrorism designed to prop up a very autocratic monarchy and insure oil supplies continued to flow. To others, it was a pure expression of the international community responding to an unprovoked aggression that was in clear violation of international law. Clearly, two wrongs don't make a right. It seems to come down to the framework used to judge what is right and wrong. International law? National rights? Where is the basis to build on?

Kat questioned whether the internet is a mechanism. I submit it is not. Even in the US, large segments of the population aren't on-line. Some out of temperament, many because they can't afford it. A lot of articles I come across (all op/ed sort of things) argue that the internet is functioning as a polarizing agent in our society, further de3fining the haves and the have nots.

Regards and Rejoice in Spirit of the Season John


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: InOBU
Date: 25 Dec 00 - 06:57 PM

Hi John: Merry Christmas!
You bring up a good point with the bombing of Dresden. Dresden employed the use of numerous small incendiary bombs to create a fire storm, a whirlwind of fire that we were more than capable of creating anywhere in Japan, espcially in the wooden cities of that nation which no longer had an airforce to speak of... (of which to speak, I know DougR :-) )
However, I think a hint of why we used to bomb on humans, not just as an example somewhere, the fact that we wanted to show it's destructive power on humans and that we were serrious enough to use it on humans, was the fact that we used all the a bombs we had. Then we sent a stratigic air wing to England and told Stalin that it was nuclear equipt, though it wasn't and that if he did not stop his territorial advances, we would bomb Moscow. Now, was that politically right? Well, there is an argument for it, was it terrorism, I would say in its most clasic form it is.
Let's hope people stop doing that to each other!
Let's start with a be kind to Trolls week.
Cheers,
Larry


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Dec 00 - 07:07 PM

Little Hawk, please, again, no offence, but I've got to call you on the following statement:

"He was far too intelligent to consent to being shipped off to Asia to shoot and blow up Vietnamese peasants. Time has shown the wisdom of his decision."

I know you probably did not mean it this way, but many, many people of great intelligence went off to the Vietnam war because for whatever reason they had no choice; their *consent* was not asked of them. That they went does not mean they were lower in intelligence than someone who did not.

Skeptic/John, I don't think I meant to question it as a mechanism, so much as to say I think it may keep those who are connected too passive in any kind of revolt which may occur. Have to wait and see. I have read some of the same types of op/ed pieces.

Oh, and DougeR, I think ya might have stepped in it a bit; everyone knows Larry's postings have always reflected his learning disablity and he's made no bones about it. I find it not in keeping with the gentleman I know you to be to have attacked him about it as you did. I'll will chalk it up to your feeling a bit beleagured at the moment with all of our liberal *crap* and hope you get to feeling less so.*bg* (Besides that, with my dyslexic fingers, my postings are rife with misspellings, too!)

Respectfully,

kat

Thanks


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Dec 00 - 07:22 PM

Kosovo was and is a European problem but guess who is there "keeping the peace"? troll asks rhetorically.

I'm afraid the answer is Europeans. Eight in every ten.

Most wars stop for a Christmas truce, except the most bitter. What that says about the USA today I hesitate to think.


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Dec 00 - 07:24 PM

Kosovo was and is a European problem but guess who is there "keeping the peace"? troll asks rhetorically.

I'm afraid the answer is Europeans. Eight in every ten.

Most wars stop for a Christmas truce, except the most bitter. No Christmas truce here, it seems. What that says about the USA today I hesitate to think.


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