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bush sends a message to terrorists

Troll 02 Jan 01 - 11:47 PM
Lonesome EJ 02 Jan 01 - 08:16 PM
Little Hawk 02 Jan 01 - 07:25 PM
GUEST,LEJ 02 Jan 01 - 07:18 PM
Little Hawk 02 Jan 01 - 06:48 PM
Little Hawk 02 Jan 01 - 12:39 PM
Amergin 31 Dec 00 - 05:54 PM
Little Hawk 31 Dec 00 - 05:07 PM
MichaelAnthony 31 Dec 00 - 02:01 PM
McGrath of Harlow 31 Dec 00 - 01:25 PM
Little Hawk 31 Dec 00 - 12:04 PM
InOBU 31 Dec 00 - 10:50 AM
Seth 31 Dec 00 - 10:25 AM
DougR 30 Dec 00 - 08:26 PM
katlaughing 30 Dec 00 - 01:26 AM
McGrath of Harlow 29 Dec 00 - 07:54 PM
katlaughing 29 Dec 00 - 07:22 PM
McGrath of Harlow 29 Dec 00 - 07:06 PM
Rick Fielding 29 Dec 00 - 04:07 PM
Little Hawk 29 Dec 00 - 03:33 PM
Little Hawk 29 Dec 00 - 03:31 PM
McGrath of Harlow 29 Dec 00 - 02:16 PM
Little Hawk 28 Dec 00 - 05:04 PM
InOBU 28 Dec 00 - 04:43 PM
McGrath of Harlow 28 Dec 00 - 02:10 PM
catspaw49 28 Dec 00 - 01:44 PM
Little Hawk 28 Dec 00 - 11:27 AM
GeorgeH 28 Dec 00 - 11:02 AM
McGrath of Harlow 27 Dec 00 - 04:32 PM
Little Hawk 27 Dec 00 - 04:13 PM
Little Hawk 27 Dec 00 - 01:12 PM
InOBU 26 Dec 00 - 05:47 PM
Ebbie 26 Dec 00 - 03:48 PM
Little Hawk 26 Dec 00 - 03:17 PM
McGrath of Harlow 26 Dec 00 - 05:15 AM
CarolC 26 Dec 00 - 05:11 AM
Troll 26 Dec 00 - 02:04 AM
Troll 26 Dec 00 - 01:54 AM
Troll 26 Dec 00 - 01:17 AM
Little Hawk 26 Dec 00 - 01:16 AM
InOBU 26 Dec 00 - 12:54 AM
DougR 26 Dec 00 - 12:52 AM
InOBU 26 Dec 00 - 12:51 AM
Troll 25 Dec 00 - 11:34 PM
GUEST,.gargoyle 25 Dec 00 - 10:40 PM
InOBU 25 Dec 00 - 08:16 PM
Little Hawk 25 Dec 00 - 07:27 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Dec 00 - 07:24 PM
McGrath of Harlow 25 Dec 00 - 07:22 PM
katlaughing 25 Dec 00 - 07:07 PM
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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: Troll
Date: 02 Jan 01 - 11:47 PM

What I want to know is ; what in the hell difference does it make HOW Colin Powell pronounces his first name?

troll


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: Lonesome EJ
Date: 02 Jan 01 - 08:16 PM

Hawk,Huey was one of the more fascinating characters in American politics,a Louisiana dirt farmer who became a State Congressman,Governor,and was poised for a run at the Presidency,if he hadn't slept with the wrong man's wife and been shot by him.He is a classic study in a populist leader who used his role as the voice of the Working Man to become a near-dictator,propping up his administration with graft and using the Louisiana State Police as his personal army.Despite his excesses,he was a powerful speaker,and rivalled Franklin Roosevelt in popular appeal.All the KIng's Men by Robert Penn Warren is a biography of Long,written shortly after "The Kingfish" was assassinated,with names of characters changed to avoid lawsuits.A great read.


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Jan 01 - 07:25 PM

Cool. Way to go, Huey!

- LH


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: GUEST,LEJ
Date: 02 Jan 01 - 07:18 PM

"Why weep or slumber America?
Land of Brave and True
There's castles and clothing and food for all
All belongs to you!
Every Man a King,every man a king
For you can be a millionaire
If there's something belonging to others
There's enough for all people to share
In the Sunny June and December too
Or in the Winter or the Spring
There'll be peace without end
Every neighbor a friend
And Every Man a King!"

-Every Man a King Huey Long's campaign song in his run for the US Senate


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Jan 01 - 06:48 PM

Helloooo....

- LH


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: Little Hawk
Date: 02 Jan 01 - 12:39 PM

How could I be more important than I actually am?

:-) :-D ROTFL!!!

- LH

p.s. Actually, as soon as I was born, I became aware that I was VITALLY important, and I have never lost sight of it since. Everybody else I know has the same problem...funny, isn't it?


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: Amergin
Date: 31 Dec 00 - 05:54 PM

Now you done it, MA, you just made Little Hawk believe he is more important than he actually is.....poor Hesperis may never forgive you now......


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Dec 00 - 05:07 PM

MA = My God, someone's actually listening! Yes, Michael, it could easily be changed to the same sort of system we use in local civic elections, for example. That is, you have people run for office on a local or small regional basis only, simply as individuals, without ANY party affiliation. Those individuals would all be funded equally from a public purse, with campaign funding limited to a reasonable amount of money, instead of the orgy of spending done by huge political parties.

The individual candidates would run on their personal reputation, their character, and their ideas.

There would be a limit on how many candidates could run in a given riding...say no more than 5. Nominations could be made by any private citizen, and a preliminary vote could be held locally for nominees to narrow it down to 5 candidates if there were too many nonminees. The 5 who got the most votes would run in the actual election for that riding.

There would be NO "king" figure on a national basis...just local candidates who would form a national assembly with regional chapters after the election. Each regional chapter would elect a chairperson from within its own ranks, plus a cabinet. The same would be done on a national leve.

That's government by committee, without competing power blocks. A meeting of minds, not a butting of heads.

This is exactly what happens in a local city council election in my own hometown of Orillia, and it could be done on a State or a Federal basis as well in the USA or anywhere else.

The present system is corrupt, and is a holdover from the Roman Empire, with all the trappings...an emperor (read that as "king" or "president" or "prime minister") on top and the similar structure on down from there. It's no good. A president is just a constitutional monarch with temporary tenure...4 to 8 years. Why do you think they play "Hail to the Chief" when he walks in. How different is that really from "Hail Caesar!" or "Heil Hitler!" in it's basic expression?

Remember, the German word "feuhrer" meant "boss" or "chief", as did the Italian word "duce", as did the Spanish "el jefe", etc. So when they play "Hail To The Chief" they are following in a time-honoured tradition...not that I am suggesting that the USA is as undemocratic as those fascist regimes...it is not...but it concentrates too much power and too much emphasis on the leadership of one man...and most men can't live up to that, nor should they be expected to.

Eliminate the political parties and you have eliminated the divisiveness and corruption of the present system. Eliminate the "chief" obsession, and you've finally gotten rid of King George, which they tried to do way back in 1776. (All they really did was change "king for life" to "king for 4 to 8 years"...in fact, they were so used to the idea of kings that George Washington, when first elected wanted to be addressed as "your majesty", but cooler heads convinced him to abandon that position.)

Can you imagine how much less division and hatred there would be in the USA if those damn parties were gone?

God save America.

- LH


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: MichaelAnthony
Date: 31 Dec 00 - 02:01 PM

Little Hawk, you wrote:

"The only way you, as a people, could become totally rational and truly free is IF THE DEMOCRATIC AND REPUBLICAN PARTIES CEASED TO EXIST! And if all other parties likewise ceased to exist, and you voted for individual people instead, and formed a goverment which worked as a circle of equals, not as a house divided against itself."

There is so much truth to that. Why do we feel the need to identify ourselves as either a Republican or Democrat here? And the dominance of these parties continues to silence other voices.

Any ideas on how to change this?

MA


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 31 Dec 00 - 01:25 PM

Just because bad things have happened to you it unfortunately it doesn't mean you don't do bad things to other people.

In fact if you look round the world, that's where most of the viciousness comes from. It doesn't matter where you look, or at what level, global, national, in society, ibn the family. Turning the other cheek is still seen as a crazy and impossible way of behaving (especially maybe by the so-called "religious" right in America) and yet it's the only way things can ever get better.


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: Little Hawk
Date: 31 Dec 00 - 12:04 PM

Yeah, it makes you wonder. Some of those "religious dissenters" were simply people who were so joyless and intolerant that they couldn't get along with anyone in Europe. The Pilgrims and the Puritans come to mind. They came here not for freedom of religion so much as for the opportunity to avoid anyone who differed from themselves in any way whatsoever. Put less kindly, they were fanatics. The religious right in the USA has followed pretty closely in the tradition they set down, as far as being close-minded and preoccupied with damnation and the many ways of achieving it.

As is well known, the Native Americans helped those Pilgrims and Puritans to survive at first, but came to bitterly regret doing so not long afterward.

- LH


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: InOBU
Date: 31 Dec 00 - 10:50 AM

Good on ya Seth, it is not unlike all those who describe this as a nation founded by religious dessenters, who want their religion to drive legislation here, eh? Go figure.
Larry


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: Seth
Date: 31 Dec 00 - 10:25 AM

I'm personally grateful for all my draft-dodging ancestors who came to the good old U.S.of A., by managing to stay out of the King's army, the Czar's army, another King's army, and all the other armies that marched and shot and killed each other across Europe for the last 400 years. It doesn't make me sad nor do I feel shame if one of my forebears may have been a coward, or a draft dodger in the 100 years war, or the Franco- Prussian war, or some Napoleonic campaign or some other war. Makes me think that he was a guy with some brains(maybe), some luck(maybe), some money (probably not) who saw a chance to save his ass and took it. If not for him, no me. I think that most people see those conflicts through a long enough historical lens so that the waste, the insanity is clear, but it's more dificult when you or you family are involved. Then your death is supposed to mean something. I think that an individual is responsible for his or her own life. Hand that over to the generals and God help ya' Seth from China


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: DougR
Date: 30 Dec 00 - 08:26 PM

Yes, it comes as no surprice to me that most of you would find the Hitchens article interesting. If the events he reports as fact are true, he certainly is a well informed writer.

DougR


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: katlaughing
Date: 30 Dec 00 - 01:26 AM

Yeah, LOL, Colon Bowel, it is! I've NEVER heard it pronounced that way, except in relation to him! Here's My Colin, just scroll past InOBU's friend, the dawg pix, and...gee think I ought to change my priorities a bit, maybe put the people first!?**BG**


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Dec 00 - 07:54 PM

"Colon Bowel" - see what you mean. Nobody over here has ever pronounced the name that way either. Can't see it catching on.

(There's a Colin in this picture playing a bodhran, and he never pronounces his name like a length of intestine either!)


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: katlaughing
Date: 29 Dec 00 - 07:22 PM

McGrath, my son's name is Colin and we've always pronounced it "Cawl-in"; pisses the hell out of him to hear Powell's being pronouned coal-lin, sounds just like a part of the intestine!


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Dec 00 - 07:06 PM

He is, I believe, Rick. He's got a brother who is also a journalist, who spends his time savageing Labour Party politicians, from a rightwing perspective.

I gather the brothers keep the Atlantic between them so as to avoid quarrelling. (As the Mudcat sometimes demonstrates, that doesn't always work...but a Happy New Year to all here anyway.)


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: Rick Fielding
Date: 29 Dec 00 - 04:07 PM

Thank you McGrath for that link. Very interesting. Damn, that Hitchings is a good writer. He must be loathed by EVERYONE....as every HONEST writer should.

Rick


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Dec 00 - 03:33 PM

Therefore I am! :-D

- LH


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: Little Hawk
Date: 29 Dec 00 - 03:31 PM

Yes. I've noticed that most North Americans say "Colin" to rhyme with "rollin'", while most of the people from the U.K. say "Colin" to rhyme with "fallin'". I think...

- LH


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 29 Dec 00 - 02:16 PM

Huey Long - could that be a referance to his alleged dying request to be buried in his home state of Louisiana somthat he could continue to play an active part in politics by voting? (Though "voting the dead" strikes me as a more honest way of rigging the polls than some other methods in vogue.)

And here's a piece about Colin Powell which sheds an interesting light on some aspects of his career. Such as the initial My Lai cover-up. (Incidentally is that way of pronouncing "Colin" to rhyme with "rollin'" instead of with "pollen" the normal American way of pronouncing it?)


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Dec 00 - 05:04 PM

Hi, Spaw - Could you elaborate on the Huey Long thing? I've heard of Huey Long (he was a politician, wasn't he?), but I can't remember much about him. What are you referring to?

- LH


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: InOBU
Date: 28 Dec 00 - 04:43 PM

Hi GeorgeH:
Powell is on social issues within the nation, where you and I basicly agree, however, as Sec. of State, his belief in afirmative action and women's rights will not come into play, rather, we are putting a soldier in the driver's seat of the US foriegn policy, not a very comforting though, I'm afraid.
Cheers,
Larry


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 28 Dec 00 - 02:10 PM

I think if a dead man gets elected he ought to be allowed to take his seat.


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: catspaw49
Date: 28 Dec 00 - 01:44 PM

Huey Long LIVES!!!

Spaw (:<))


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: Little Hawk
Date: 28 Dec 00 - 11:27 AM

McGrath - hmmm...interesting point. Actually, I don't believe in restitution so much as I believe in everyone having a basically equal share of the bounty of the Earth. In other words, I'm a democratic socialist by nature. I would like to see everyone put at basically the same material level on an equal playing field, without regard as to their religion, race, gender or whatever. Then they could aim their creative abilities not toward getting more things or more money, but rather toward getting promoted to more interesting and challenging responsibilities.

The show "Star Trek Next Generation" presented just such a society. It would be possible for people to create such a society if they were willing to...but they are not at present, because they're all caught up in the competition/survival of the richest game. Too bad.

So, restitution, no. Equality, yes. When people are treated equally, no one has a need to complain about the situation...or recriminate about the past.

- LH


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: GeorgeH
Date: 28 Dec 00 - 11:02 AM

Most of this is over my head, but, InOBU, the English lorry drivers last September WERE wimps, and their farmer friends disingenuous wimps . . .

Other than that I'm with you all the way (but surprised to learn that Powell's appointment upset the right - he's always seemed WELL to that side of the spectrum from where I'm sat . . )

G.


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 27 Dec 00 - 04:32 PM

Yeah - but there's a question of restitution involved if you inherit something that has been stolen, and are benefitting from the use of it. Guilt isn't the issue here anymore than it is with slavery.


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Dec 00 - 04:13 PM

Ot...to put it another way...I don't believe in guilt by association. I have never felt like a guilty "white" man.

- LH


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: Little Hawk
Date: 27 Dec 00 - 01:12 PM

Nope, they weren't me. I was born on this land. I am in no way responsible for the actions of other people, whether or not they were my genetic predecessors. You will not find me invading some other country I was not born on, and murdering the local inhabitants, while inflicting some insane religion upon them at the same time.

- LH


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: InOBU
Date: 26 Dec 00 - 05:47 PM

Hi Ebbie
I think you are on to something, but I don't fully get your point. Can you draw it out a bit for some of us who are a tad thick?
Cheers - Larry
PS Genie is back, her mum is doing well, and we are off to the Circus, so I will look forward to seeing your answer tomorow! Whoopie!


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: Ebbie
Date: 26 Dec 00 - 03:48 PM

Pardon me for posting a really obvious point: (Sometimes obvious points need to be made): The 'foreigners' who came over to the new world and took over this land from the native inhabitants, often by force, and created a new country (or two countries- count Canada in)were YOU.

Ebbie


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Dec 00 - 03:17 PM

McGrath - Ha! Ha! You are absolutely right. The time to keep foreigners out of America was from around 1492 to maybe 1600. After that it was a moot point, and fankly, unachievable, despite the efforts of genuine American patriots like Pontiac, Tecumseh, or Crazy Horse. Bravo for your comment!

Troll - Okay, I get your drift now. Interestingly enough, Joan Baez, whom I greatly love and admire, was in agreement with you...she wanted those opposing the war to remain in the USA and go to jail if necessary. I kind of got the impression she married her husband mostly because he did just that, and she was in love with the politics so much that it made her think she was in love with him. On the other hand, maybe she really did love him regardless...

At any rate, I think myself that it was a quixotic and futile gesture for a small number of men to offer themselves up as martyrs to the entire machinery of the US "justice" system. I did not agree with Joan on this one, and would instead have advised them to leave the country, and continue a productive life somewhere else, then maybe return later.

Here's some interesting background on Matthew, the smartest draft dodger I ever met. While in University in the late 60's he became a major antiwar protestor and organizer on campus, and worked personally with Jerry Rubin, Abbie Hoffman, and most of the other people in the Chicago seven.

He was hugely motivated in that sense, and through his activities he attracted the attention of the FBI, needless to say. They put him on a top priority list of subversives that they badly wanted to incarcerate.

May I add to this that all of Matthew actions were entirely nonviolent. He is and was a pacifist, like Joan Baez.

After the Democratic convention in '68, the FBI was closing in fast on Matthew and many of his friends in the protest movement. He was expecting to be arrested and charged at any time. Accordingly, he went on a little visit to Canada, and didn't come back. He became a guitar teacher for the most prestigious guitar academy in all of Canada, Eli Kassner Guitar Academy in Toronto. I had the incredible good fortune to take my first guitar lessons there, with Matthew as my teacher. One of the other young students was Liona Boyd, now a famous classical guitarist with a huge career.

Matthew taught classical guitar and folk guitar, and some other styles as well.

Matthew was a big Bob Dylan fan, and it was he who first made me really aware of Dylan's body of work.

He was also a true renaissance man in the real sense of the term...a remarkably bright, likeable, and capable guy. I never heard a single mean word come out of his mouth toward anyone.

No surprise that this guy would be opposed to war.

You say that somebody else had to take his place in the front line, as it were. Well, true enough, there is always someone else, isn't there? There's always someone else who will work for the mafia if you don't, there's always someone else who will kill for their country if you don't. So what?

What does that have to do with anything? No matter what the role in life is, someone else will always step in if you don't, but it is your own conduct you are responsible for, not theirs. If Matthew had gone to jail, someone else would still have gone to Vietnam, and Matthew's great gifts to the people around him would have been entirely wasted. If 500,000 American boys had refused to go, the USA would have gotten out of Vietnam.

I agree there are some draft dodgers who were just looking out for themselves, but Matthew was not one of those...he had deep political convictions, and worked damn hard in nonviolent protest for as long as he was able to, in order to end that war and bring Americans home.

Now, as to your comment: "BTW, I think you'll find that the vast majority of the world does not agree with your "one people, one big nation" idea. It isn't the governments and it isn't just bigots who believe this, although it's a good way to demonize and discredit those who don't agree with you.

Most of the wars being fought right now in the world are being fought because one ethnic or tribal group doesn't want another ethnic or tribal group running their lives and telling them what to do. This is not because they fear them because they don't know them. It's because their sense of identity is bound up in their ethnicity and they want that preserved.

If this is not valid, then you should be working to get Native Americans to assimilate as quickly as possible and become part of the "one people" instead of a distince group.

I agree entirely. Individual people are as much to blame for human disunity as are their governments, and their governments are usually the ones they deserve, in the final analysis, because the government rises out of the consciousness of the majority of its public.

Human brotherhood does not require assimilation, it simply requires acceptance of those who are different. I call that "unity in diversity". I believe that we can be very different, and still be one humanity. The differences are what make life rich and beautiful.

So, yes, I am well aware that the majority of people in the world do not presently agree with my idea of humanity as "one people". When they do agree with it, then we will have peace. Majorities can be wrong, and frequently are. More frequently than not, in fact. Just look around you. How many Gandhis or Buddhas or Jesus Christs do you run into at your local supermarket? Yet those are the enlightened ones, and they offered real solutions to human disunity...but how many really listened or had the guts to even try what they offered? What use are our aims, if we do not aim for the highest?

Peace on Earth.

- LH


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 26 Dec 00 - 05:15 AM

Keeping foreigners out of America might have been a good idea back in the 16th Century, but it's a bit late now.

Still, so long as the people who've slipped in over the centuries are willing to assimilate to real American languages and cultures it could be worth their trying it.


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: CarolC
Date: 26 Dec 00 - 05:11 AM

I would like to ask a favor of people when they post to discussions of this sort.

I can see from a little bit of some of the longer posts, that they have some very interesting content. I am having trouble reading the ones that are not broken up into paragraphs because I have really bad astigmatism, and those posts are all a jumbled up blur to me.

I would really like to know what people have to say about some of these issues, but I just can't read the posts that aren't broken up.

Thanks,

Carol


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: Troll
Date: 26 Dec 00 - 02:04 AM

BTW, I think you'll find that the vast majority of the world does not agree with your "one people, one big nation" idea. It isn't the governments and it isn't just bigots who believe this, although it's a good way to demonize and discredit those who don't agree with you.
Most of the wars being fought right now in the world are being fought because one ethnic or tribal group doesn't want another ethnic or tribal group running their lives and telling them what to do. This is not because they fear them because they don't know them. It's because their sense of identity is bound up in their ethnicity and they want that preserved.
If this is not valid, then you should be working to get Native Americans to assimilate as quickly as possible and become part of the "one people" instead of a distince group.

troll


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: Troll
Date: 26 Dec 00 - 01:54 AM

Little Hawk, you are wrong. I opposed the war but a man who will not stand and fight for what he believes is right,is a coward regardless of what face you try to put on it. Those who went to jail were few in number.
Alternative service was available. Those who ran, in my experience, did so because they didn't want to lose out in the race for jobs etc. If they did alternative service, they couldn't go to school and others who had high lottery numbers would get ahead of them. In Canada, they could go to school and stay current with their peers. Maybe your friend was different. But I have my doubts.
BTW, someone else went in your friends place. But that's not his responsibility, is it?

troll


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: Troll
Date: 26 Dec 00 - 01:17 AM

I hadn't heard that. It's a good one.

troll


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: Little Hawk
Date: 26 Dec 00 - 01:16 AM

Troll - What's the issue about borders? All the people of the world are a single nation. It is governments which do not recognize that...governments and bigots...who are really just ordinary people who are afraid of someone they see as being different from themselves. There are no aliens. We are all one humanity here on planet Earth.

As for bringing your American troops home? Yeah, I would mostly be in favour of that...but would you also be willing to bring home McDonalds, Exxon, WalMart, Coca Cola, Pepsi, Gulf, the Rand Corporation, Bank of America, and the other multinationals who are exploiting the whole world for their own gain? That would be a bit more to the point.

As for draft dodgers, if one honestly believes a war is unjust, then one should not go. Given the choice, I would rather move to Canada or France or somewhere, and live a normal, productive human life, and make a contribution to society, than rot in a US prison for 5 years, just to be a noble martyr for the cause. Matthew has made a huge contribution to society...he's one of the finest music teachers I've ever know. He would have been an idiot to stay in the USA and go to jail for his views.

Marlene Dietrich was not called a coward for opting to leave Germany when the Nazis took over, was she? She was praised for it. Likewise, I praise Matthew for having left the USA, instead of subjecting himself to the tender mercies of an uncomprehending legal system that is little better than a blind robot following the law of the moment.

The difference in our opinions is not based upon any evaluations of individual bravery or cowardice on the part of draft dodgers, it is based upon our differing view of the Vietnam war, that's all. I was completely against American involvement in that war, and I gather that you were not. It's as simple as that.

- LH


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: InOBU
Date: 26 Dec 00 - 12:54 AM

PS A note on control of our boarders, a little off the track. Who was it who in the senate debates on Star Wars said that anyone who wanted to get a nuculear device into the us, only had to hide it in a bale of Marajuana?
Also welcome back and merry Christmas Gargoyle, ol' skin - Larry


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: DougR
Date: 26 Dec 00 - 12:52 AM

I was not aware Larry had a learning disability until I was so informed by Carol in a personal message which I read tonight. An apology is winging it's way to Larry as I write this message.

I would not knowingly harm, either with words or deeds, anyone, whether disabled or not.

DougR


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: InOBU
Date: 26 Dec 00 - 12:51 AM

Hey troll: don't worry about the rough draft. Hell, if any of us were writing this stuff for posterity, we'd be throwing in sites and all sorts of well thought out arguements, and shucks, this is us just sittin' round the bar stools (us suppin' the soda water...). Well, yours is not a bad idea at first blush. However, before we can object to illegal aliens or any other sort of alien coming here, except maybe from Mars... we have to stop bringing all their sustenance here! This little naiton of ours uses 70% of the world's raw materials, and that amount of stuff is controled by 3 % of the population! I had a debate with a fellow at a comference on immagration, and the fellow felt pretty much the way you do. He was asking why all the people of the world want to come here. Well, the fellow was not a Native American, so I guess he meant everyone after his Irish ancestors. I told him that in my experience, they were only following their stuff. When you take so much from everywhere else, you have to take some of the folks who counted on it being there in the first place!
Cheers all
Larry


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: Troll
Date: 25 Dec 00 - 11:34 PM

Gargoyle, nice to have you back.
Kat, you say everyone knows that Larry has a learning disability? I didn't know it. I just thought he was a lousy speller. Like me. So cut Doug some slack. McGrath, you say that 8 in 10 peacekeepers in Kosovo are European? It should be 10 in 10. It's a European problem and Europe should deal with it Our national interest is not at stake, we have no reason to be there. Little Hawk, to me, the people who ran to Canada were and are arrant cowards who did not have the courage stay and fight for what they claimed to believe. They deserve only my contempt. I can admire those who stayed, fought and, in some cases, went to jail, defending their belief that the war was wrong. So if Canada wants that kind of person, Canada is welcome to them. Since everyone seems to think that the US is the bad guy right now, I have a little proposal to make. Understand that this is not a final draft. It is rather a short collection of musings or notes. Still, it should provoke a bit of thought on the part of at least some of you. I propose that the US go isolationist. We should seal our borders, halt all immigration and bring ALL of our troops home. The troops can be used to insure the integrity of our borders, north and south. The Navy can patrol our territorial waters. Those crossing our borders illegally would be shot. Any illegal aliens who did make it through would be, when caught, serve a long jail term prior to being deported. Anyone harboring or knowingly employing an illegal alien would be fined and jailed. All foreign aid would be predicated on the degree of friendliness shown us by the recipient nation. In addition, ALL aid would be under our direct oversight. This would prevent graft and would insure that the aid money was spent in ways which we approve.

All foreign imports would be subject to a heavy tariff. Our exports would be taxed lightly. You don't like it? Don't trade with us.

Mess with any of our citizens and we would come down on your country like the Wrath of God. There are many more items on the list but I think you get the idea. Have fun.

troll


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: GUEST,.gargoyle
Date: 25 Dec 00 - 10:40 PM

AHHHHH......but what IS his postition on the IRA?????

He's our man!!!


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: InOBU
Date: 25 Dec 00 - 08:16 PM

Hi Troll:
As to Kosovo, that was a much more complex situation than it appeared in the press. We tend to get in trouble as a pease keeping force by making a black and white issue about things. We were defending a facist terrorist state, while at the same time not providing an end game, by limiting that support, possibly, for the reason that if we empowered Albanian naitonalist victory, there would have been a greater blood bath then there had been. You see, Milosavich was a complete barbarian in his tactics, however, in the Serbian political plan, they were attempting to stop the genocide leveled at both Serbians and Roma (Gypsies) by the Albanians who wanted a purely Albanian nation, devoid of "aliens". In the way we conducted our peacekeeping we did very little, in fact nothing, to defend the Roma who were getting it from both Serbians and Albanians, though to a lesser degree from Serbians. No countries other than Macidonia were taking Roma into the refugee camps, and the rational thing for us to do, would have been to give first prority to Roma refugees in the refugee camp in NJ. In fact, I have not been able to get any evidence that any Roma came to the US as refugees, even after a young boy was attacked and nearly pulled appart by Albanians in a Macidonian refugee camp. Peace keeping at the end of a gun is a hugely difficult thing to do, especially when a nation does not do the homework needed to fit the complexities of history. I had the terrible sleepless job of trying to find a remidy for Roma in Serbian cities, who because of prejudice lived in bad sections of towns, for example, by the airbases, who where having bombs droped on them by the US - and other NATO airforces. The typical "colateral damage" were people who were the most discriminated against in the region. We may never know how many Roma died at the hands of all three parties. In the end, there was nothing we could do. We could not even get people to answer the phone to deel with the issue. Roma blood is cheeper than that of animals. (In fact, here in the US, more agressive aid is given to stray dogs than the one million Roma in this nation let alone Kosovo)...
Oh well, I'm at a loss to comment further.
Merry Christmas all,
Larry


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: Little Hawk
Date: 25 Dec 00 - 07:27 PM

Yep, terrorism is still terrorism, doesn't matter who's doing it. I am quite sure that every major power in the world, and most minor powers as well have been guilty of it on various occasions.

For a president (or any politician) to blow off steam about getting tough on terrorism is crass posturing. It's right up there with defending motherhood, strengthening the armed forces, offering a tax cut, getting "tough on crime", etc. It's a tired cliche, intended to give the impression that said politician is tough, determined, compassionate or whatever, when all he's doing is blowing off steam.

Who is not opposed to terrorism? Remember, every so-called terrorist is a "freedom fighter" in his OWN eyes, so don't think he's not against terrorism (on the conscious level). He's very much against it...or at least he THINKS he is, anyway. He just thinks it's the other guy who's committing the terrorism against his people, that's all.

And that's exactly why Jesus said "forgive them, for they know not what they do".

- LH


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Dec 00 - 07:24 PM

Kosovo was and is a European problem but guess who is there "keeping the peace"? troll asks rhetorically.

I'm afraid the answer is Europeans. Eight in every ten.

Most wars stop for a Christmas truce, except the most bitter. No Christmas truce here, it seems. What that says about the USA today I hesitate to think.


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 25 Dec 00 - 07:22 PM

Kosovo was and is a European problem but guess who is there "keeping the peace"? troll asks rhetorically.

I'm afraid the answer is Europeans. Eight in every ten.

Most wars stop for a Christmas truce, except the most bitter. What that says about the USA today I hesitate to think.


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Subject: RE: bush sends a message to terrorists
From: katlaughing
Date: 25 Dec 00 - 07:07 PM

Little Hawk, please, again, no offence, but I've got to call you on the following statement:

"He was far too intelligent to consent to being shipped off to Asia to shoot and blow up Vietnamese peasants. Time has shown the wisdom of his decision."

I know you probably did not mean it this way, but many, many people of great intelligence went off to the Vietnam war because for whatever reason they had no choice; their *consent* was not asked of them. That they went does not mean they were lower in intelligence than someone who did not.

Skeptic/John, I don't think I meant to question it as a mechanism, so much as to say I think it may keep those who are connected too passive in any kind of revolt which may occur. Have to wait and see. I have read some of the same types of op/ed pieces.

Oh, and DougeR, I think ya might have stepped in it a bit; everyone knows Larry's postings have always reflected his learning disablity and he's made no bones about it. I find it not in keeping with the gentleman I know you to be to have attacked him about it as you did. I'll will chalk it up to your feeling a bit beleagured at the moment with all of our liberal *crap* and hope you get to feeling less so.*bg* (Besides that, with my dyslexic fingers, my postings are rife with misspellings, too!)

Respectfully,

kat

Thanks


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