Lyr Add: When Love is Kind (Thomas Moore)

Subject: Lyr Add: WHEN LOVE IS KIND
From: Shula
Date: 24 Sep 97 - 03:45 PM

Didn't find this little ditty in DT or Forum. Thought you might like to have it, Dick:


WHEN LOVE IS KIND


When love is ki-i-i-ind,
Cheerful and fre-e-e-ee,
Then love may f-i-i-ind,
Welcome from me!

But when love bri-i-i-i-i-ings
Heartache and pa-a-a-a-a-ang,
Tears and such thi-i-i-i-i-ings, ...(pause for effect)
Love may go hang!

(Author: St.Thomas More, according to the book my mother sings it from, though I wonder if he isn't being confused with the later gentleman of similar name. Anyone know?)


If anyone knows more verses, I'd love to have them.
This little piece can be great fun, with the first verse sung crisply and plainly, and the second performed as melodramatically and with as much vocal embellishment as possible.


Shula

Subject: RE: LYR. ADD. When Love is Kind
From: Joe Offer
Date: 25 Sep 97 - 03:39 AM

Well, Shula, this is more likely to be from Thomas Moore, son of a Dublin grocer, a writer of rather maudlin poetry who lived from 1779-1852. He was the author of a collection of ten books called Irish Melodies, and he was renowned in London as a singer of sentimental songs. The Moore poem I'm familiar with is "Believe Me, If all those Endearing Young Charms," There's also a cool one about a maiden and a canoe and a poisonous snake.....but I can't find your song.

Saint Thomas More (pronounced "Moore") was Lord Chancellor under Henry VIII, and was beheaded by henry in 1535. More's most famous work is Utopia, which he wrote in Latin.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: LYR. ADD. When Love is Kind
From: Shula
Date: 25 Sep 97 - 01:18 PM

Thanks, Joe. It was acquaintance with More's Utopia which caused me to wonder if the printed attribution must not be in error, but I'd still like to be sure.

Shula

Subject: RE: LYR. ADD. When Love is Kind
From: Nonie Rider
Date: 25 Sep 97 - 03:57 PM

I ran into this in summer camp (eternal non-source of folk music!) with the following slight lyric difference:

When love is kind, Simple and free, Then love may find Welcome from me.

But if love brings Heartache and pain, Tears and such things, Love may go hang.

That was the complete song; no other lyrics.

Subject: Lyr Add: WHEN LOVE IS KIND (Thomas Moore)
From: Alice
Date: 26 Sep 97 - 11:17 AM

The author of the lyrics is Thomas Moore, and the melody is old.

WHEN LOVE IS KIND

When love is kind, cheerful and free,
Love's sure to find, welcome from me.
But when love brings heartache and pang,
Tears and such things, love may go hang.
If love can sigh for one alone,
Well pleased am I to be that one.
But should I see love giv'n to rove,
To two or three, then goodbye, Love!
Love must in short keep fond and true,
Through good report and evil too.
Else here I swear, young Love may go,
For aught I care, to Jericho!
AAAhhhhhhhhhhh (long legato run ending with staccato) ha! ha! ha! to Jericho!

My voice teacher had me learn this one. It is a common folk song that classical singers add to programs of "light" music. The last aahhh and ha, ha, ha, is a great exercise for breathing and changing from a smooth line to a staccato. I love Thomas Moore songs, collect them, and sing them. Alice in Montana

Subject: RE: LYR. ADD. When Love is Kind
From: Joe Offer
Date: 26 Sep 97 - 03:02 PM

Hi, Alice - do you know of any online sources for Thomas Moore songs? Although he's now classed as a "minor Romantic poet," Thomas Moore was very popular during the early 19th century, and was as well-known as Byron and Scott. Are there any other Moore songs as well-known as "Believe Me, If All those Endearing Young Charms"?
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: LYR. ADD. When Love is Kind
From: Alice
Date: 26 Sep 97 - 05:20 PM

Hi Joe, my favorite of the Thomas Moore songs is Silent O Moyle, which is obscure, and I have not been able to find any book with the music. I learned it from an old record. I'm sure you will notice lots of classics of his once you start looking such as The Minstrel Boy. I also like The Pretty Girl Milking Her Cow (Cailin deas Cruite na Mbo, 'colleen das cruthen na mo') ... there are many. I notice you found a poetry site for Moore lyrics in Toronto, but I haven't been able to connect to it yet. I was pleased to see that you found that source. Alice

Subject: RE: LYR. ADD. When Love is Kind
From: Joe Offer
Date: 27 Sep 97 - 05:26 AM

Hi, Alice - Well, the sites I've found have only 3 or 4 Moore poems each, but that was a start. I've also found several in books. I've really enjoyed what I've found, and all of it is new to me. And to think all this started because Sbula thought it was Saint Thomas More and asked me for confirmation. It's been very interesting.

By the way, Thomas Moore is kind of hard to find on the Web because there's a self-help lecturer with the same name, and that guy has a lot of coverage. Thanks to both you and Shula for enlightening me on this.
By the way, Alice, I loved your story on the "Lovingkindness" thread about your grandfather's mining claim.
-Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: LYR. ADD. When Love is Kind
From: Alice
Date: 27 Sep 97 - 12:09 PM

Joe, I've spent time here and there on my hobby of trying to find Thomas Moore sources on the web, and yes it is surprising for the amount of work he did how little is printed and recorded. I did find ONE other recording of Silent O Moyle besides the one I have by Mary O'Hara (my favorite Irish soprano). There is a CD of a collection of classical singers performing Thomas Moore songs, and it includes Silent O Moyle. That song is the story of the children of Lir (the Irish myth version of King Lear).. they were loved by all except their step mother who turned them into swans. There is a great retelling of this story in the webzine "Irelands Eye", written in installments starting, I think, in the April issue. That is a great webzine, BTW. I will post the lyrics to Silent O Moyle sometime when I get the time. The music is haunting... gives you chills. I think I will start a new thread on Moore lyrics, since I am still searching for books with the music. Alice in Montana

Subject: RE: LYR. ADD. When Love is Kind
From: Shula
Date: 30 Sep 97 - 01:13 AM

Dear Joe,

Minor point. Asked you for accurate information about the authorship of this song because, in spite of its attribution to St.Thomas More IN PRINT, I rather doubted that its spellings, syntax, grammar, vocabulary, idiom, or subject matter were likely to be his. The later Moore seemed a far likelier possibility, but I had no proof and thought you might, given your training. Was glad to have my suspicions confirmed. (The alternative, though less probable option, other than a simple typo., was that More had written an earlier work, which had been "modernised" in the 18th or 19th century, but that still left the subject matter unaccounted for.) Thanks for the real scoop!

Dear Alice,

Thanks for the additional lyrics; knew there had to be more (no pun intended). Incidentally, my mother had this in a book of vocal exercises, which may explain both the single verse and the sloppy scholarship. Now that I have more to work with, think I'll play with this'un anew! Most grateful; ts'a nifty bit'o work!

Shula

Subject: RE: LYR. ADD. When Love is Kind
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Sep 97 - 01:22 AM

You bring up a good point, Shula. When my kids took piano lessons, every song in their books was attributed to the author of the book - and I knew a number of those songs were written by others.
And yes, I erred for the sake of brevity in saying that you thought the song was from the saint. If you had thought the attribution to be correct, you wouldn't have asked me about it.
Mea culpa. Mea culpa. Mea maxima culpa.
-A Contrite Joe Offer-

Subject: RE: LYR. ADD. When Love is Kind
From: Shula
Date: 30 Sep 97 - 01:32 AM

Pax vobiscum (I think; last Latin class was 33 years ago, remember little but Gallic Wars --yuk-- and Cattullus -- not in class, Ahem!) I'd offer absolution but I don't think you shattered any of THE BIG 613! Thanks again.

Shula

Subject: RE: LYR. ADD. When Love is Kind
From: Shula
Date: 30 Sep 97 - 01:35 AM

Joe --

Afterthought -- remember some dif.'s in pron. of Church Latin. If you know a source to refresh my memory of these "softer" sounds, would be much obliged.

Shula

Subject: RE: LYR. ADD. When Love is Kind
From: Joe Offer
Date: 30 Sep 97 - 02:11 AM

Well, Shula - you can get a good idea of the so-called "Italian" pronunciation of Latin from just about any Gregorian Chant recording. I wouldn't recommend the best-selling "Chant" series because those monks put an unusual Spanish accent on it. come to think about it, the Italians have a distinctive accent to their Latin, too. I prefer chant recordings from people who speak German, French, or English as a first language - because their singing sounds more like the way I'd sing it, I suppose.
A few pointers on the difference between the Italian and "Classical" pronunciations:
Italian:
"C" is soft, as in "checkers"
"OE" and "AE" are like the vowel in "hay"
"V" as in "victory"

Classical:
"C" is hard, as in "cracker"
"AE" and "OE" are pronounced like the vowel in "tie"
"V" is pronounced like a "W," which I always thought was really dumb.

My mother learned Latin in Detroit public schools, and I learned mine in a Catholic seminary. I liked to point out to her how wimpy Caesar would have sounded if he had actually said:
"wennie, widdy, wicky." (Veni, vidi, vici)
In the Italian pronunciation, it's
VAY-nee, VEE-dee, VEE-chee.

-Joe Offer, who used to be pretty good at Latin-

Subject: RE: LYR. ADD. When Love is Kind
From: Shula
Date: 30 Sep 97 - 02:41 AM

Dear Joe,

Not to put too fine a point on it, but Catullus' "Vivamus, Mea Lesbia" (nothing to do with Sappho, but the prototypical "Gather Ye Rosebuds While Ye May" -- AKA "the kissing poem") -- [aside to Bruce, COULD he be EUPHEMISING, peut-être?] -- also comes off pretty limp-wristed done with the "W" for "V." We used to send it up à la Julia Child with a lisp, pre-P.C. of course. T'were a right wicked youth, but a good'un, eh, Joe?

Shula

Subject: RE: LYR. ADD. When Love is Kind
From: Bert
Date: 30 Sep 97 - 08:46 AM

That classical book "1066 and all that" says that the Ancient Britons were annoyed because Caesar called them "Weeny, Weedy and Weaky"

Subject: RE: LYR. ADD. When Love is Kind
From: Nonie Rider
Date: 30 Sep 97 - 01:35 PM

And because a certain saint said they were "Not Angels but Anglicans"...

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When Love is Kind (Thomas Moore)
From: GUEST,hey
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 01:45 AM

i have the full lyrics do u have and email adress?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When Love is Kind (Thomas Moore)
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 04:06 AM

Are there more words to this song than the ones Alice posted above? I had to learn it in singing lessons too - it's in a number of standard art-song books that voice students use.

Always liked it, both musically and for the message it carries. Young maidens are usually drooping and swooning and dying for love. But this girl obviously has a bit of spirit -

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When Love is Kind (Thomas Moore)
From: MartinRyan
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 04:45 AM

Things have changed since 1997!

Click here

Regards

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When Love is Kind (Thomas Moore)
From: MartinRyan
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 04:49 AM

That said - the song sought does not appear to be there.

Regards

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When Love is Kind (Thomas Moore)
From: Bonnie Shaljean
Date: 06 Apr 08 - 05:34 AM

Never mind - it's a great site, glad to know about it.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When Love is Kind (Thomas Moore)
From: GUEST,Lilith
Date: 29 Nov 10 - 05:11 PM

Does anyone know where I can acquire a recording of When Love is Kind that has good sound quality?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When Love is Kind (Thomas Moore)
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 30 Nov 10 - 08:51 PM

Allmusic.com lists several recordings.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When Love is Kind (Thomas Moore)
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 01 Dec 10 - 11:09 AM

I've been looking for an online version of the melody for this song. I found this at the National Library of Australia:

Pergolesi, Giovanni Battista, & Moore, Thomas. & Wales, Evelyn, & Pergolesi, Giovanni Battista, 1936 When love is kind [music] : old Austrian air / words by Thomas Moore ; arr. by Evelyn Wales ; Nina : canzonetta / G. B. Pergolesi ; English version by Evelyn Wales

At first I thought that Pergolesi had written the tune for Moore's song. Now I believe that the library simply owns a document that had two entirely different pieces of music in it, one by Pergolesi and one an Austrian tune. (I say this to keep anybody from spending more time on Pergolesi, which would probably be wasted.)

There are a number of YouTube videos of high schoolers singing the song, so somebody out there has the tune. However, it would be SO MUCH effort to get the melody from those videos. For one thing, the piano is too loud.

So if anybody knows where to find the tune....

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When Love is Kind (Thomas Moore)
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 02 Dec 10 - 12:35 AM

Several old books say that Moore had in mind an "Austrian Air" for this song.

The Lester S. Levy Collection of Sheet Music has WHEN LOVE IS KIND, words by Thomas Moore, music by P. A. Rivarde, 1869.

Trouble is, I don't know whether this is the "Austrian Air" that Moore had in mind.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When Love is Kind (Thomas Moore)
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 02 Dec 10 - 11:52 AM

I'm sure that the jaunty little tune in this solo is the Austrian air that Moore had in mind. It sounds like something from an 18th Century opera.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YmUGTJObDLo

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When Love is Kind (Thomas Moore)
From: GUEST,GUEST.david
Date: 02 Dec 10 - 05:34 PM

Hello,
I've just uploaded a rendition of this song by the Robert Shaw Chorale, from a 1956 album.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jwj-ojuJT6s

Thank you.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When Love is Kind (Thomas Moore)
From: GUEST,leeneia
Date: 03 Dec 10 - 09:22 AM

Thanks, David. That's lovely!

Subject: When Love is Kind (Thomas Moore)
From: GUEST,Rita M
Date: 09 May 18 - 11:26 AM

Any info on the composer P.A. Rivrde??

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When Love is Kind (Thomas Moore)
From: leeneia
Date: 09 May 18 - 10:23 PM

The lyrics make more sense if you know that Love here refers to Cupid, not to an emotion.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: When Love is Kind (Thomas Moore)
From: leeneia
Date: 09 May 18 - 11:02 PM

The sheet music is available at the IMSLP/Petrucci site for free. Just google this:

"when love is kind" sheet music

then thrash your way through the undergrowth till you get there.

Too bad it's in 4 flats. If you want it in F, PM me.