Origins: John o' Dreams (Bill Caddick)

Subject: RE: Origins: John ODreams (Bill Caddick)
From: Reinhard
Date: 03 Nov 20 - 07:37 PM

They seem to have copied the note on the origins of the melody from Wolfgang's posting above (26 Sep 97). Follow up posting indicate that there isn't much similarity between Piva Piva and the tune in the Pathetique.

And to quote Bill Caddick from the "Rough Music" sleevenotes:
The tune is loosely based on a theme from Tchaikovsky's "Pathetique" while the character is mentioned in "Hamlez"

Subject: RE: Origins: John o' Dreams (Bill Caddick)
From: GUEST,RattlinRoarinWillie
Date: 03 Nov 20 - 06:39 PM

Just came here from watching a beautiful new arrangement of the song by The Wilderness Yet on Youtube

It strikes me that they’ve changed the melody slightly from the version I knew before... in the note below they make it clear they know the origins of the melody - does anyone know whether this is closer to “Piva Piva”?

Subject: RE: Origins: John o' Dreams (Bill Caddick)
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 14 Oct 18 - 04:44 PM

Change of time sig, that's all. Basic melody the same! Pianist should have ignored the dots and done it by ear!

Subject: RE: Origins: John o' Dreams (Bill Caddick)
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 14 Oct 18 - 11:12 AM

Once tried it with a pianist playing the Tchaikovsky tune from the dots and it doesn’t actually fit so it’s an adaptation at best.

Subject: RE: Origins: John o' Dreams (Bill Caddick)
From: Brian May
Date: 13 Oct 18 - 04:12 PM

Cracking song Custard Creams . . . cracked me up anyway.

Must admit I like Peter Rowan's version of John O'Dreams

Subject: RE: Origins: John o' Dreams (Bill Caddick)
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 10 Mar 18 - 07:15 PM

It's always a bit of fun in a folk session to tell your bemused compatriots rhat you are going to sing a wee song by Tchaikovsky...and then launch into either "John O' Dreams" or "Custard Creams" (in my case probably the latter.)

Subject: RE: Origins: John o' Dreams (Bill Caddick)
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Mar 18 - 03:03 AM

why not contct Bill Caddick , and yes it is a very good song, he has more recently stated at his gigs that it is a folk tune , so contact him

Subject: RE: Origins: John o' Dreams (Bill Caddick)
From: RTim
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 10:37 PM

So should we forget that the Author himself - Bill Caddick, has maintained for years that it is a Tchaikovsky melody.
It just might be his memory of the tune and not a prefect rendition.......been known to have happened else where...........and what difference does it make??

It's just a Bl**dy good song, and one I used to sing my kids to sleep with often.

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: Origins: John o' Dreams (Bill Caddick)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 10:23 PM

Yeah, Steve, that's my inclination, too. I'm always tempted to delve deeper into the folk origins of classical music - but I've never gotten very far. I was intrigued by the recent thread about Baba Yaga, but was unable to find any traditional source for Mussorgsky's tune about the witch in Pictures at an Exhibition.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Origins: John o' Dreams (Bill Caddick)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 09:04 PM

I've looked into this quite a bit and I can find no reference anywhere to its being a borrowed tune. My strong feeling is that it's an original composition. I'd gladly defer to anyone whose scholarship can trump mine!

Subject: RE: Origins: John o' Dreams (Bill Caddick)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 08:01 PM

Well, it's the Digital Tradition that says the Tchaikovsky melody was borrowed from "Piva Piva," and I wonder where the DT got that info.

We all agree that the tune is in Tchaikovsky Symphony No. 6, Pathetique, but I always thought the meloday was a Tchaikovsky original. Anybody know Tchaikovsky's tune sources for Pathetique?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Origins: John o' Dreams (Bill Caddick)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 06:55 PM

Very nice, Joe. Nothing to do with the Pathetique theme, though. We could send the guy a guitar tuner for his birthday... :-)

Subject: RE: Origins: John o' Dreams (Bill Caddick)
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Mar 18 - 05:15 AM

joe , Bill, did not mention piva piva , do myou not think he might be referiing to another folk tune, why not just contact him he has a website.,
Iam busy at the moment i have a gig this afternoon and do not have time

Subject: RE: Origins: John o' Dreams (Bill Caddick)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Mar 18 - 10:44 PM

Here's a vocal version of the Italian song entitled "Piva Piva." Does it sound like the theme from Pathetique at all? Not to me. Nice song, though. You decide: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MylNDZRouVI

Subject: RE: Origins: John o' Dreams (Bill Caddick)
From: Andy7
Date: 03 Mar 18 - 03:06 PM

I always thought the first line of the last verse would scan better as

"When sleep arrives, the dreams come running clear"

Subject: RE: Origins: John o' Dreams (Bill Caddick)
From: GUEST,Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 03 Mar 18 - 02:46 PM

You don't think he's introducing it like that because someone read the post above from '97 and told him?

Mick

Subject: RE: Origins: John o' Dreams (Bill Caddick)
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 03 Mar 18 - 01:28 PM

Hymn-writers too: plenty of examples.

Subject: RE: Origins: John o' Dreams (Bill Caddick)
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 12:57 AM

he is introducing it like that in more recent years and at the present moment ,in my opinion quite plausible when you think of how many other classical composers borrowed from the folk tradition and then mde variations etc

Subject: RE: Origins: John o' Dreams (Bill Caddick)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Feb 18 - 09:43 AM

I saw Bill at the Tree Inn Folk Club about twenty or more years ago. He sang the song song but said nothing about the folk tune connection. I'd have pounced on him had he done so! A couple of blokes with guitars and a voice and meself used to do the song with me on me moothie. I'm not claiming anything, Dick, just intensely curious about the origin of this amazing piece of music.

Subject: RE: Origins: John o' Dreams (Bill Caddick)
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Feb 18 - 09:08 AM

here it is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlDMBojZbpE

Subject: RE: Origins: John o' Dreams (Bill Caddick)
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Feb 18 - 09:04 AM

i got that information from bill caddick himself, he actuially says so on his live gigs

Subject: RE: Origins: John o' Dreams (Bill Caddick)
From: GUEST,Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 28 Feb 18 - 08:42 AM

Steve - see the posts above: Wolfgang (Hell) - 27th Aug 07 and Wolfgang (Hell) - 26th Aug 97.

It certainly isn't derived from Piva Piva (you can hear several version of that on youtube), and I can't find anywhere online suggesting an Italian folk song derivation.

Mick

Subject: RE: Origins: John o' Dreams (Bill Caddick)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Feb 18 - 08:18 AM

Where did you get the information that it's derived from a folk tune, Dick? I can't find that anywhere. What I do know is that it's one of the most beautiful and accomplished pieces of orchestral writing that I know. There are several strands in the second subject group (which is why I call it a group), the Caddick song tune being closely derived, I'd say, mostly from the first strand in which the tune is played fairly simply but with amazing ebb and flow. There's another quicker theme, then the "song tune" comes back with a different accompaniment in 12/8, and then a final strand, just before Tchaikovsky's Big Bang, in which the tune is reprised finally and poignantly on the clarinet along with "a dying fall." I've loved this movement for over forty years. My most treasured recording of it is Mravinsky conducting the Leningrad Phil in the 1957 mono version. Sorry for the gushing digression!

Subject: RE: Origins: John o' Dreams (Bill Caddick)
From: GUEST,Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 28 Feb 18 - 07:11 AM

I just report what Bill sang Dick, both on record and on the youtube video referenced above (though there he sings journey's over). As to changing it when you sing it, that's up to the singer; I do it all the time.

As regards the Pathetique's theme origin I checked up only on the reference above here (and in another thread I think) that it was derived from Piva Piva, which it doesn't seem to be. In the youtube video - from 2016 - Bill says that he "finally found out last year that the actual tune is an Italian folk tune". I haven't been able to verify even that.

Mick

Subject: RE: Origins: John o' Dreams (Bill Caddick)
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Feb 18 - 05:53 AM

Subject: RE: Origins: John O' Dreams (Bill Caddick)
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 13 Jul 17 - 07:19 AM

The tune comes from the second subject group of the first movement of Tchaikovsky's Symphony no 6, the Pathetique."
but apparantly not an original but a folk tune

Subject: RE: Origins: John o' Dreams (Bill Caddick)
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 01:08 PM

When midnight sings good people homeward tread
Seek now your blankets and your feather bed
Home is the rover, his journey over
Yield up the nighttime to old John o' Dreams x2

Across the hill, the sun has gone astray
Tomorrow's cares are many dreams away
The stars are flying, your candle's dying
Yield up the darkness to old John o' Dreams x2

Both man and master in the night are one
All things are equal when the day is done
The prince and the ploughman, the slave and the freeman
All find their comfort with old John o' Dreams x2

Now as you sleep your dreams come winging clear
The hawks of morning cannot harm you here
Sleep is your river, float on forever
And for your boatman choose old John o' Dreams x2
ok but maybe not as good as
1. when midnight comes and
2.when sleep it comes the dreams come[ running ] clear
3.sleep is a river flowing on forever
the fact the song might orally evolve is one of the aspects that make it a folk song

Subject: RE: Origins: John o' Dreams (Bill Caddick)
From: GUEST,Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 25 Feb 18 - 07:28 PM

I've been scanning (and indexing) my old song folders recently and I'm often reminded of songs I used to sing years ago and should do again.

As I was about to do this song I thought I'd check my transcription against Mudcat and none of the version here seem to be the way Bill Caddick sings it. So here's the version he recorded on Rough Music. I checked my transcription against the record (1 error - I had as asleep instead of as you sleep in the last verse), so I believe this to be correct. I've marked the changes compared to Georgiansilver's version above.

JOHN O'DREAMS
(words:Bill Caddick; music:PI Tchaikovsky)

When midnight sings good people homeward tread
Seek now your blankets and your feather bed
Home is the rover, his journey over
Yield up the nighttime to old John o' Dreams x2

Across the hill, the sun has gone astray
Tomorrow's cares are many dreams away
The stars are flying, your candle's dying
Yield up the darkness to old John o' Dreams x2

Both man and master in the night are one
All things are equal when the day is done
The prince and the ploughman, the slave and the freeman
All find their comfort with old John o' Dreams x2

Now as you sleep your dreams come winging clear
The hawks of morning cannot harm you here
Sleep is your river, float on forever
And for your boatman choose old John o' Dreams x2

Source: Bill Caddick, lp Rough Music, 1976


While on the song. I've listened to 2 versions of Piva Piva on youtube and fail to see any resemblance to the Tchaikovsky theme. It may have derived from an Italian tune, but it doesn't seem to be this one. Ideas?


Mick

Subject: RE: Origins: John O' Dreams (Bill Caddick)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Aug 17 - 11:28 PM

Thanks, Mark and Georgiansilver. I'm convinced that we have it fairly close to perfect now.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Origins: John O' Dreams (Bill Caddick)
From: GUEST,Mark Bluemel
Date: 03 Aug 17 - 04:22 PM

I've now listened to Bill's version on YouTube. This must be the same as Joe referenced in his post at "13 Jul 17 - 01:52 AM", changing song at the start of the last verse :-(

Joe's transcription there seems to match what I hear, and what I remember - including the last verse. I think I first heard it sung by Sean Cannon nearly 40 years ago.

I suspect a lot of people have learnt the song second or third hand - probably from Christy Moore (I note that it's another song that seems to have been claimed by the Emerald Isle - can people not understand that Christy Moore singing something doesn't make it Irish? Let's hope one day he'll cover "Rule Brittania" or "The Star Spangled Banner" just for the fun of making people think they're Irish too).

Most of the variations seem to me to have lost a lot of the original's poetry.

Subject: RE: Origins: John O' Dreams (Bill Caddick)
From: GUEST,Mark Bluemel
Date: 03 Aug 17 - 07:14 AM

I can't transcribe this at work, but the originator sings it himself
here - anyone fancy transcribing it?

Subject: RE: Origins: John O' Dreams (Bill Caddick)
From: Georgiansilver
Date: 03 Aug 17 - 06:28 AM

John o' Dreams
Author: words-Bill Caddick; music Tchaikovsky


When midnight comes and people homeward tread
Seek now your blanket and your feather bed
Home comes the rover, his journey's over
Yield up the nighttime to old John o' Dreams
Yield up the nighttime to old John o' Dreams

Across the sky, the sun is gone astray
Tomorrow's cares are many dreams away
The stars are flying, your candle's dying
Yield up the darkness to old John o' Dreams
Yield up the darkness to old John o' Dreams

Both man and master in the night are one
All things are equal when the day is done
The prince and the ploughman the slave and the freeman
All find their comfort in old John o' Dreams
All find their comfort in old John o' Dreams

When sleep it comes the dreams are rushing clear
The hawks of morning they cannot reach you here
Sleep is a river, flow on forever
And for your boatman choose old John o' Dreams
And for your boatman choose old John o' Dreams

Subject: RE: Origins: John O' Dreams (Bill Caddick)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Aug 17 - 03:52 AM

Still looking for definitive Bill Caddick lyrics.

Subject: RE: Origins: John O' Dreams (Bill Caddick)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 13 Jul 17 - 07:19 AM

The tune comes from the second subject group of the first movement of Tchaikovsky's Symphony no 6, the Pathetique.

Subject: RE: Origins: John O' Dreams (Bill Caddick)
From: Peter the Squeezer
Date: 13 Jul 17 - 02:41 AM

Yet another version by Les Barker


RON OF DREAMS

When midnight comes good people homewards tread
They don't see me they all see John instead
I'm just the other's less famous brother
Turn out your light I'm only Ron of Dreams
Turn out your light I'm only Ron of Dreams

Across the hills the sun has gone astray
The world's ignored me just like Yesterday
He's got charisma,He's John - I isna
Here in the darkness You'll find Ron of Dreams
Here in the darkness You'll find Ron of Dreams

Both man and master in the night are one
All things are equal except maybe Ron
The prince and the ploughman,the slave and the free man
All take no notice of old Ron of Dreams
All take no notice of old Ron of Dreams

My brother John is all they ever see
That bastard Caddick never noticed me
Him and Tchaikovsky,they wrote me offski
They said,I quote:"Man who's old Ron of Dreams?"
They said I quote:"Man who's old Ron of Dreams?"

Subject: RE: Origins: John O' Dreams (Bill Caddick)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Jul 17 - 02:23 AM

We Americans learned the song on the Folk-Legacy Fashioned in the Clay album by Gordon Bok, Ann Mayo Muir, and Ed Trickett. Here's their recording and my transcription of it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFH_mhiUpwI

JOHN O' DREAMS
(Bill Caddick)

When midnight comes, good people homeward tread,
Seek now your blankets and your feather bed;
Home is the rover, his journey's over.
Yield up the darkness to old John o' Dreams,
Yield up the darkness to old John o' Dreams.

Across the hills the sun has gone astray,
Tomorrow's cares are many dreams away;
Home is the rover, her journey's over.
Yield up the nighttime to old John o' Dreams,
Yield up the nighttime to old John o' Dreams.

Both man and master in the night are one,
All things are equal when the day is done;
The Prince and the Plowman, the slave and the freeman,
All find their comfort in old John o' Dreams,
All find their comfort in old John o' Dreams.

Now as you sleep the dreams come winging clear;
The hawks of morning cannot harm you here.
Sleep is a river, flows on forever,
And for your boatman choose old John o' Dreams,
And for your boatman choose old John o' Dreams.


Almost the same as what's in the Digital Tradition. I guess we must have gotten the DT lyrics from Bok-Muir-Trickett.

Still, does anyone have the definitive Bill Caddick lyrics?

While we're waiting for definitive Bill Caddick lyrics, here's a nice performance by Rachel Ries & Anaïs Mitchell https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rm3ofBThXP8

Subject: RE: Origins: John o' Dreams (Bill Caddick)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Jul 17 - 02:12 AM

Well, lacking a Bill Caddick recording, let me post a transcription of Jean Redpath's recording. I've always appreciated Jean's scholarship.

JOHN O' DREAMS
(Bill Caddick)

When midnight comes and people homeward tread,
Seek now your blanket and your feather bed;
Home comes the rover, his journey's over.
Yield up the nighttime to old John o' Dreams,
Yield up the nighttime to old John o' Dreams.

Across the hills the sun has gone astray,
Tomorrow's cares are many dreams away;
The stars are flying, your candle's dying,
Yield up the darkness to old John o' Dreams,
Yield up the darkness to old John o' Dreams.

Both man and master in the night are one,
All things are equal when the day is done;
The Prince and Ploughman, the slave and freeman,
All find their comfort in old John o' Dreams,
All find their comfort in old John o' Dreams.

And when sleep comes, the dreams are running clear;
The hawks of morning cannot reach you here.
Sleep is a river, flows on forever,
And for your boatman choose old John o' Dreams,
And for your boatman choose old John o' Dreams.



Jean Redpath recording (from A Fine Song for Singing: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M9MsQ_vlHsY

Subject: DT Correction: John o' Dreams (Bill Caddick)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 13 Jul 17 - 01:52 AM

Somebody sent me an email questioning the Digital Tradition lyrics to "John o' Dreams," and I figured I'd better check. I found two Bill Caddick performances, but he leaves out the last verse in the first one. Here's my transcription. Differences from the Digital Tradition are in italics. Any corrections?
-Joe-


JOHN O' DREAMS
(Bill Caddick)

When midnight sings, good people homeward tread;
Seek now your blankets and your feather bed.
Home is a rover, his journey's over.
Yield up the nighttime to old John o' Dreams,
Yield up the nighttime to old John o' Dreams.

Across the hill the sun has gone astray;
Tomorrow's cares are many dreams away.
The stars are flying, your candle's dying,
Home is the rover, her journey's over.
Yield up the darkness to old John o' Dreams,
Yield up the darkness to old John o' Dreams.

Both man and master in the night are one;
All things are equal when the day is done.
The Prince and the Ploughman, the slave and the freeman.
All find their comfort with old John o' Dreams,
All find their comfort with old John o' Dreams.

Now as you sleep the dreams come winging clear;
The hawks of morning cannot harm you here.
Sleep is your river, float on forever,
And for your boatman choose old John o' Dreams,
And for your boatman choose old John o' Dreams.

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Words copyright by Bill Caddick, Music by Tchaikovsky (tune
borrowed from a southern Italian lullabye entitled Piva Piva).

I listened to this Bill Caddick performance - he stops after the first line of the fourth verse, so I can't verify the fourth verse.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlDMBojZbpE

A kindly Mudcatter sent me a Bill Caddick studio recording of the song from an album titled Unicorns-Disk 1, so the above is my transcription from the two Bill Caddick recordings.

---

Here are the Mudcatter's notes, comparing Caddick to the Redpath recording:

Hi Joe
Bill re-recorded this for a CD 'Unicorns' in 2002. The version there is similar to the Jean Redpath version, but with several small differences.

Some changes sound much better to me:
'The prince and _the_ ploughman...'

Some worse:
'When midnight _sings_ ...'
'Home _is_ a rover.'.'
'_Float_ on forever'..'

Which is 'right' I've no idea. Anyway, have a listen.

Subject: RE: Origins: John o' Dreams
From: Mr Red
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 07:19 AM

Yo carn't trust Brummies nohow!
Whom youm accusin of bein a Brummie? Owr Kid
AFAIK Bill wus frum Wolverhampton ma mon. A million miles distant - culturally!
Nar he's aliven in Telford, (He got a free downgrade ) and at the last count ran an acoustic session once a month in the Black Swan, Jackfield.
see here

Subject: RE: Origins: John o' Dreams
From: GUEST,Angela Brown
Date: 16 Dec 13 - 06:32 AM

I realise this thread is a few years old, but Scottish poet, William Sharp in 1906, tells a beautiful folk tale about A man referred to as John o' Dreams under his pseudonym Fiona Macleod in 'The Lynn of dreams'. I love the story so much that I was looking for more information on John o' Dreams as a folkloric figure.

Subject: RE: John O' Dreams
From: Blackcatter
Date: 10 May 05 - 09:18 AM

refresh

Subject: RE: John O' Dreams
From: Blackcatter
Date: 09 May 05 - 03:29 PM

refresh

Subject: RE: John O' Dreams
From: Blackcatter
Date: 09 May 05 - 12:06 PM

Here's the response from Bill Caddick:

Hello Tom,

Thanks for the interest. It was a very long time ago but I seem to
remember a black and white TV version of "Hamlet" (this may be fantasy but I think it was actually filmed in Denmark) starring Richard Chamberlain (he of "Dr. Kildare fame in those days) and John o' Dreams was mentioned. I'd already thought of Tchaikovsky's theme from his No. 6 Symphony as a great tune (!) and the two just went together. The melody is "flattened out" a bit but is always recognised as Pete's as far as PRS etc are concerned. Will that do?

Cheers, Bill

Subject: RE: John O' Dreams
From: Den
Date: 04 May 05 - 03:26 PM

I think its just giving sleep a personality. When I was a kid in Ireland my mother used to refer to the night as old Johnny Dark. She would say, "its time for bed Old Johnny Dark's down." Scared the crap out of us to I must admit imagining this wierd old guy creeping around outside.

Subject: RE: John O' Dreams
From: Blackcatter
Date: 04 May 05 - 09:36 AM

done. I'll let you know what I hear.

Subject: RE: John O' Dreams
From: RobbieWilson
Date: 04 May 05 - 07:51 AM

Why don't you ask the horse himself? [e-mail]

Subject: RE: John O' Dreams
From: Boab
Date: 04 May 05 - 03:55 AM

Possible, Akenaton, but in my opinion not very likely. There is quite a number of similar songs in the theme. Mind you, you do mention another great song, "Dream Angus".

Subject: RE: John O' Dreams
From: akenaton
Date: 04 May 05 - 02:12 AM

I think "John o' dreams" would be based on the old scots lullaby "Dream Angus".

Angus was a mythical gaelic figure who brought dreams to sleeping children.
The dreams were always good and brought peace .
"Dreams to sell, fine dreams to sell,
Angus is here with dreams to sell.
Hush little baby and sleep without fear,
Angus has brought you a dream my dear"

Subject: RE: John O' Dreams
From: Blackcatter
Date: 04 May 05 - 01:24 AM

Any one have more info on the John O' Dreams connection - who he was, etc?

Blackcatter

Subject: RE: John O' Dreams
From: GUEST,Pete Thomas
Date: 27 Jun 03 - 07:50 AM

Broadside would have been by John Crane who did a whole series ofBills songs in the early 70's including a booklet of King Sun and Queen Moon. I have also got a set of songs from Pete Coe in the same series.

Pete Thomas

Subject: RE: John O' Dreams
From: Gurney
Date: 19 Jun 03 - 05:44 AM

Watson, I did say "suspect," and for a good reason. Bill himself sold me the song-sheet at a gig of his in Coventry. I don't know who printed it. About 1973. Good Grief.
There isn't a Bow Bells for Brummigem. Halfway down the road from Coventry will do. Dont take it too seriously.
There isn't a Brummigem either. Long ago, in a serious attempt to find the origin, I laboriously went through the Doomsday Book looking for it. No Birmingham, but there was a Brymwichham. Sounds near enough folk memory for me. Regards.