Origins: John o' Dreams (Bill Caddick)

Subject: RE: Origins: John O' Dreams (Bill Caddick)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Aug 17 - 11:28 PM

Thanks, Mark and Georgiansilver. I'm convinced that we have it fairly close to perfect now.
-Joe-

Subject: RE: Origins: John o' Dreams (Bill Caddick)
From: GUEST,Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 25 Feb 18 - 07:28 PM

I've been scanning (and indexing) my old song folders recently and I'm often reminded of songs I used to sing years ago and should do again.

As I was about to do this song I thought I'd check my transcription against Mudcat and none of the version here seem to be the way Bill Caddick sings it. So here's the version he recorded on Rough Music. I checked my transcription against the record (1 error - I had as asleep instead of as you sleep in the last verse), so I believe this to be correct. I've marked the changes compared to Georgiansilver's version above.

JOHN O'DREAMS
(words:Bill Caddick; music:PI Tchaikovsky)

When midnight sings good people homeward tread
Seek now your blankets and your feather bed
Home is the rover, his journey over
Yield up the nighttime to old John o' Dreams x2

Across the hill, the sun has gone astray
Tomorrow's cares are many dreams away
The stars are flying, your candle's dying
Yield up the darkness to old John o' Dreams x2

Both man and master in the night are one
All things are equal when the day is done
The prince and the ploughman, the slave and the freeman
All find their comfort with old John o' Dreams x2

Now as you sleep your dreams come winging clear
The hawks of morning cannot harm you here
Sleep is your river, float on forever
And for your boatman choose old John o' Dreams x2

Source: Bill Caddick, lp Rough Music, 1976


While on the song. I've listened to 2 versions of Piva Piva on youtube and fail to see any resemblance to the Tchaikovsky theme. It may have derived from an Italian tune, but it doesn't seem to be this one. Ideas?


Mick

Subject: RE: Origins: John o' Dreams (Bill Caddick)
From: The Sandman
Date: 27 Feb 18 - 01:08 PM

When midnight sings good people homeward tread
Seek now your blankets and your feather bed
Home is the rover, his journey over
Yield up the nighttime to old John o' Dreams x2

Across the hill, the sun has gone astray
Tomorrow's cares are many dreams away
The stars are flying, your candle's dying
Yield up the darkness to old John o' Dreams x2

Both man and master in the night are one
All things are equal when the day is done
The prince and the ploughman, the slave and the freeman
All find their comfort with old John o' Dreams x2

Now as you sleep your dreams come winging clear
The hawks of morning cannot harm you here
Sleep is your river, float on forever
And for your boatman choose old John o' Dreams x2
ok but maybe not as good as
1. when midnight comes and
2.when sleep it comes the dreams come[ running ] clear
3.sleep is a river flowing on forever
the fact the song might orally evolve is one of the aspects that make it a folk song

Subject: RE: Origins: John o' Dreams (Bill Caddick)
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Feb 18 - 05:53 AM

Subject: RE: Origins: John O' Dreams (Bill Caddick)
From: Steve Shaw - PM
Date: 13 Jul 17 - 07:19 AM

The tune comes from the second subject group of the first movement of Tchaikovsky's Symphony no 6, the Pathetique."
but apparantly not an original but a folk tune

Subject: RE: Origins: John o' Dreams (Bill Caddick)
From: GUEST,Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 28 Feb 18 - 07:11 AM

I just report what Bill sang Dick, both on record and on the youtube video referenced above (though there he sings journey's over). As to changing it when you sing it, that's up to the singer; I do it all the time.

As regards the Pathetique's theme origin I checked up only on the reference above here (and in another thread I think) that it was derived from Piva Piva, which it doesn't seem to be. In the youtube video - from 2016 - Bill says that he "finally found out last year that the actual tune is an Italian folk tune". I haven't been able to verify even that.

Mick

Subject: RE: Origins: John o' Dreams (Bill Caddick)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Feb 18 - 08:18 AM

Where did you get the information that it's derived from a folk tune, Dick? I can't find that anywhere. What I do know is that it's one of the most beautiful and accomplished pieces of orchestral writing that I know. There are several strands in the second subject group (which is why I call it a group), the Caddick song tune being closely derived, I'd say, mostly from the first strand in which the tune is played fairly simply but with amazing ebb and flow. There's another quicker theme, then the "song tune" comes back with a different accompaniment in 12/8, and then a final strand, just before Tchaikovsky's Big Bang, in which the tune is reprised finally and poignantly on the clarinet along with "a dying fall." I've loved this movement for over forty years. My most treasured recording of it is Mravinsky conducting the Leningrad Phil in the 1957 mono version. Sorry for the gushing digression!

Subject: RE: Origins: John o' Dreams (Bill Caddick)
From: GUEST,Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 28 Feb 18 - 08:42 AM

Steve - see the posts above: Wolfgang (Hell) - 27th Aug 07 and Wolfgang (Hell) - 26th Aug 97.

It certainly isn't derived from Piva Piva (you can hear several version of that on youtube), and I can't find anywhere online suggesting an Italian folk song derivation.

Mick

Subject: RE: Origins: John o' Dreams (Bill Caddick)
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Feb 18 - 09:04 AM

i got that information from bill caddick himself, he actuially says so on his live gigs

Subject: RE: Origins: John o' Dreams (Bill Caddick)
From: The Sandman
Date: 28 Feb 18 - 09:08 AM

here it is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlDMBojZbpE

Subject: RE: Origins: John o' Dreams (Bill Caddick)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 28 Feb 18 - 09:43 AM

I saw Bill at the Tree Inn Folk Club about twenty or more years ago. He sang the song song but said nothing about the folk tune connection. I'd have pounced on him had he done so! A couple of blokes with guitars and a voice and meself used to do the song with me on me moothie. I'm not claiming anything, Dick, just intensely curious about the origin of this amazing piece of music.

Subject: RE: Origins: John o' Dreams (Bill Caddick)
From: The Sandman
Date: 01 Mar 18 - 12:57 AM

he is introducing it like that in more recent years and at the present moment ,in my opinion quite plausible when you think of how many other classical composers borrowed from the folk tradition and then mde variations etc

Subject: RE: Origins: John o' Dreams (Bill Caddick)
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 03 Mar 18 - 01:28 PM

Hymn-writers too: plenty of examples.

Subject: RE: Origins: John o' Dreams (Bill Caddick)
From: GUEST,Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 03 Mar 18 - 02:46 PM

You don't think he's introducing it like that because someone read the post above from '97 and told him?

Mick

Subject: RE: Origins: John o' Dreams (Bill Caddick)
From: Andy7
Date: 03 Mar 18 - 03:06 PM

I always thought the first line of the last verse would scan better as

"When sleep arrives, the dreams come running clear"

Subject: RE: Origins: John o' Dreams (Bill Caddick)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 03 Mar 18 - 10:44 PM

Here's a vocal version of the Italian song entitled "Piva Piva." Does it sound like the theme from Pathetique at all? Not to me. Nice song, though. You decide: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MylNDZRouVI

Subject: RE: Origins: John o' Dreams (Bill Caddick)
From: The Sandman
Date: 04 Mar 18 - 05:15 AM

joe , Bill, did not mention piva piva , do myou not think he might be referiing to another folk tune, why not just contact him he has a website.,
Iam busy at the moment i have a gig this afternoon and do not have time

Subject: RE: Origins: John o' Dreams (Bill Caddick)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 06:55 PM

Very nice, Joe. Nothing to do with the Pathetique theme, though. We could send the guy a guitar tuner for his birthday... :-)

Subject: RE: Origins: John o' Dreams (Bill Caddick)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 08:01 PM

Well, it's the Digital Tradition that says the Tchaikovsky melody was borrowed from "Piva Piva," and I wonder where the DT got that info.

We all agree that the tune is in Tchaikovsky Symphony No. 6, Pathetique, but I always thought the meloday was a Tchaikovsky original. Anybody know Tchaikovsky's tune sources for Pathetique?

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Origins: John o' Dreams (Bill Caddick)
From: Steve Shaw
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 09:04 PM

I've looked into this quite a bit and I can find no reference anywhere to its being a borrowed tune. My strong feeling is that it's an original composition. I'd gladly defer to anyone whose scholarship can trump mine!

Subject: RE: Origins: John o' Dreams (Bill Caddick)
From: Joe Offer
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 10:23 PM

Yeah, Steve, that's my inclination, too. I'm always tempted to delve deeper into the folk origins of classical music - but I've never gotten very far. I was intrigued by the recent thread about Baba Yaga, but was unable to find any traditional source for Mussorgsky's tune about the witch in Pictures at an Exhibition.

-Joe-

Subject: RE: Origins: John o' Dreams (Bill Caddick)
From: RTim
Date: 05 Mar 18 - 10:37 PM

So should we forget that the Author himself - Bill Caddick, has maintained for years that it is a Tchaikovsky melody.
It just might be his memory of the tune and not a prefect rendition.......been known to have happened else where...........and what difference does it make??

It's just a Bl**dy good song, and one I used to sing my kids to sleep with often.

Tim Radford

Subject: RE: Origins: John o' Dreams (Bill Caddick)
From: The Sandman
Date: 06 Mar 18 - 03:03 AM

why not contct Bill Caddick , and yes it is a very good song, he has more recently stated at his gigs that it is a folk tune , so contact him

Subject: RE: Origins: John o' Dreams (Bill Caddick)
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 10 Mar 18 - 07:15 PM

It's always a bit of fun in a folk session to tell your bemused compatriots rhat you are going to sing a wee song by Tchaikovsky...and then launch into either "John O' Dreams" or "Custard Creams" (in my case probably the latter.)

Subject: RE: Origins: John o' Dreams (Bill Caddick)
From: Brian May
Date: 13 Oct 18 - 04:12 PM

Cracking song Custard Creams . . . cracked me up anyway.

Must admit I like Peter Rowan's version of John O'Dreams

Subject: RE: Origins: John o' Dreams (Bill Caddick)
From: GUEST,Ray
Date: 14 Oct 18 - 11:12 AM

Once tried it with a pianist playing the Tchaikovsky tune from the dots and it doesn’t actually fit so it’s an adaptation at best.

Subject: RE: Origins: John o' Dreams (Bill Caddick)
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 14 Oct 18 - 04:44 PM

Change of time sig, that's all. Basic melody the same! Pianist should have ignored the dots and done it by ear!

Subject: RE: Origins: John o' Dreams (Bill Caddick)
From: GUEST,RattlinRoarinWillie
Date: 03 Nov 20 - 06:39 PM

Just came here from watching a beautiful new arrangement of the song by The Wilderness Yet on Youtube

It strikes me that they’ve changed the melody slightly from the version I knew before... in the note below they make it clear they know the origins of the melody - does anyone know whether this is closer to “Piva Piva”?

Subject: RE: Origins: John ODreams (Bill Caddick)
From: Reinhard
Date: 03 Nov 20 - 07:37 PM

They seem to have copied the note on the origins of the melody from Wolfgang's posting above (26 Sep 97). Follow up posting indicate that there isn't much similarity between Piva Piva and the tune in the Pathetique.

And to quote Bill Caddick from the "Rough Music" sleevenotes:
The tune is loosely based on a theme from Tchaikovsky's "Pathetique" while the character is mentioned in "Hamlez"