Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow / Valentine O'Hara

Subject: Allan Tyne of Harrow
From: Wolfgang
Date: 04 Jan 01 - 05:47 AM

Recently, I searched here for the lyrics to a song called 'Valentine O'Hara' that was on a beautiful tape (featuring Steve Turner, Outstack) sent to me by GAZ. The song's not here, but I found an old thread on The Newry Highwayman in which Martin Ryan claimed that 'Valentine O'Hara' was nothing but the Irish version of the song 'Allan (Allen) Tyne of Harrow'.
Martin's dead right and this way I have found the lyrics (thank you!) to Valentine O'Hara for I already had a transcription of the Keene/Faulkner LP version of Allan Tyne of Harrow (shame on me for not recognising the similarity, for even the tunes are nearly identical).
Neither version is in the DT yet and I think this should be changed.

Here's a transcription (not by me) of 'Allan Tyne of Harrow' as sung by Keene/Faulkner on the LP 'Broken hearted I'll wander'. Minor errors (especially in the proper names) might be left.

ALLAN TYNE OF HARROW
(VALENTINE O'HARA)

I am a bold young highwayman,
My name is Tyne of Harrow,
I come from poor, but honest folks
Near to the hills of Yarrow.
For getting off a maid with child
For England I sailed over.
I left my parents and became
A wild and daring rover.

Straight to London I did go,
Where I became a soldier
Resolved to fight Britannia's foes,
No sergeant at arms was bolder.
They slipped me to a foreign shore
Where cannons loud did rattle.
Believe me, boys, I do not boast
How I behaved in battle.

Many's the battle I fought in,
In Holland and French Flanders.
I always fought with a courage keen
Led on by brave commanders.
But a cruel ensign called me out
And I was flogged and carted.
Cruel the usage that I got,
And so I soon deserted.

Straight to England I set sail
As fast as wind could heave me,
Resolved that of my liberty
That no one should deprive me.
I slept into the woods by night,
By all my friends forsaken.
I dared not to walk the roads by day
For fear I should be taken

But being of a courage keen
And likewise able bodied
I robbed Lords Lyons on the King's highway
With pistols heavy loaded.
I clapped the pistols to his breast
Which set his heart to quiver,
500 pound in ready gold
to me he did deliver.

With part of my new store of wealth
I bought a famous gelding
That over a five yard gate could jump
I bought him from Ned Fielding.
Lord Arkinson (?) into his coach
I robbed at Covent Garden
And two hours later that same night
I robbed the Earl of Warren.

One night I robbed at Turner Green
A revenue collector,
And what I got I gave it to
A widow to protect her.
I always robbed the rich and great,
To rob the poor I scorn it,
And now in iron chains I'm bound,
in doom I now lie borne at.

It's now in Newgate I'm confined
And by the laws convicted,
To hang on Tyburn tree's my fate
at which I'm much affrighted.
Farewell my friends and countrymen
And my native hills of Yarrow,
Kind providence shall test the soul
of Allan Tyne of Yarrow.

The two versions of this ballad I know of, Valentine O'Hara (Harra) and Allan (Allen) Tyne of Harrow, are nearly identical except for the spelling of the names (pronounce them and you'll see that one is but a mondegreen of the other). And of course, Valentine O'Hara doesn't come from Yarrow as Allan does, but from Tara (Tarra). It seems that Valentine O'Hara is the Irish, and Allan Tyne of Harrow the English variant. I do not know which comes first, but Bodley Ballads only know Valentine O'Har(r)a which might be taken as indicative. Newry highwayman (Newry town, Newlyn town, Wild and wicked youth,...) is a different ballad in my eyes, but the similarities cannot be overlooked (you'll find e.g. the name Fielding in both ballads).

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow
From: Wolfgang
Date: 04 Jan 01 - 05:50 AM

'slipped' in the second verse should read 'shipped', sorry. Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow
From: Wolfgang
Date: 04 Jan 01 - 06:06 AM

Sorry, I souldn't have relied on another person's transcription without listening again to the singing. I spy some inconsistencies (last line: 'rest' instead of 'test'; before last verse, last line, there might by the name 'Tyburn' hidden). If nobody else corrects me, I'll be back on Monday with a better transcription.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow
From: MartinRyan
Date: 04 Jan 01 - 07:02 AM

Wolfgang

I'm sure I never suggested it was "nothing but an Irish version ...."! I glory in the connections!

Regards

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow
From: Wolfgang
Date: 04 Jan 01 - 07:08 AM

Martin, you're right, these words were mine and not yours, sorry.

Wolfgang

Subject: Lyr Add: ALLAN TYNE OF HARROW
From: Wolfgang
Date: 08 Jan 01 - 08:34 AM

Here's the best guess after listening once more. I'm rather confident now but some of the proper names are guesses. Sorry for misspelling Dolores Keane's last name in the first post. The singer of this song on the LP 'Broken hearted I'll wander' is John Faulkner. For the tune go here and click on track nine.

Wolfgang

ALLAN TYNE OF HARROW
(VALENTINE O'HARA)

I am a bold young highwayman. My name is Tyne of Harrow.
I come from poor but honest folks near to the hills of Yarrow.
For getting of(f) a maid with child, for England I sailed over.
I left my parents and became a wild and daring rover.

Straight to London I did go, where I became a soldier.
Resolved to fight Britannia's foes, no sergeant-at-arms was bolder.
They shipped me to a foreign shore where cannons loud did rattle.
Believe me, boys, I do not boast how I behaved in battle.

Many's the battle I fought in, in Holland and French Flanders.
I always fought with a courage keen, led on by brave commanders.
But a cruel ensign called me out and I was flogged and carted.
Cruel the usage that I got, and so I soon deserted.

Straight to England I set sail as fast as wind could heave me,
Resolved that of my liberty, that no one should deprive me.
I slept into the woods by night, by all my friends forsaken.
I dared not to walk the roads by day for fear I should be taken.

But being of a courage keen and likewise able bodied,
I robbed Lord Lyons on the King's highway with pistols heavy loaded.
I clapped the pistols to his breast, which set his heart to quiver.
Five hundred pound in ready gold to me he did deliver.

With part of my new store of wealth, I bought a famous gelding
That over a five-barred gate could jump. I bought him from Ned Fielding.
Lord Arkinstone into his coach I robbed at Covent Garden,
And two hours later that same night, I robbed the Earl of Warren.

One night I robbed at Turnham Green a revenue collector,
And what I got I gave it to a widow to protect her.
I always robbed the rich and great. To rob the poor, I scorn it;
And now in iron chains I'm bound. In doom I now lie borne at.

It's now in Newgate I'm confined and by the laws convicted,
To hang on Tyburn tree's my fate, at which I'm much affrighted.
Farewell my friends and countrymen, and my native hills of Yarrow.
Kind providence shall test the soul of Allan Tyne of Yarrow.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow
From: Stewie
Date: 10 Jan 01 - 07:26 PM

Great song, Wolfgang. Well worthy of a guersey in the DT. A couple of things I hear differently:

Last line should be Allan Tyne of Harrow (not Yarrow)

Faulkner sings 'me' rather than the grammatically correct 'my' in all cases.

Verse 4: I hear 'I slipped into the woods' (but it's a toss-up with 'slept')

Verse 5: Sounds more like 'Lord Lowndes' and 'Which set his heart a-quiver'

Verse 6: 'That over a five-bar gate'

Verse 7: 'To rob the poor I scorn-ed' and 'In doom I now lie born-ed'

Cheers, Stewie.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow
From: Wolfgang
Date: 11 Jan 01 - 11:55 AM

Stewie,
thanks for the corrections, you're probably right on all accounts, I'll make a new printout after relistening. Can you help me with of/off in the first verse (I've never heard the expression, though the meaning is clear).

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow
From: MartinRyan
Date: 11 Jan 01 - 03:37 PM

"of" in this case, Wolfgang.

Regards

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow
From: InOBU
Date: 12 Jan 01 - 02:20 PM

The five bar gate was the gates that replaced the turn pike - turnstyles of the turnpikes after they would be often jumped by highwaymen. There is a great etching of Dick Turpin leeping a five bar gate on his mare, Black Bess, who died before he did, much to his sorrow. Anyone with knowlege - well more than that, knows of proof of Turpin surviving his hanging, please post here, any Romanichale decendants of Turpin on Mudcat?
Larry

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow
From: John Moulden
Date: 13 Jan 01 - 12:29 PM

Sorry to throw a spanner but there was an Irish Valentine O'Hara - I'm virtually certain, I have a newspaper reference to his execution - sometime I think in 1800

Subject: Lyr Add: ALLAN TYNE OF HARROW
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 Jan 01 - 03:53 AM

With a thanks to Stewie and Martin, here's the latest attempt. Yes, Faulkner sings 'me' instead of 'my' throughout, but I don't know what the policy of Mudcat is in these cases.

John

In the first verse, 'for England I sailed over' makes a bit more sense when the man comes from Ireland than when he comes from Yarrow. There are now altogether at least three indicators that 'Valentine O'Hara' is the version that comes first.

Wolfgang

ALLAN TYNE OF HARROW
(VALENTINE O'HARA)

I am a bold young highwayman; my name is Tyne of Harrow.
I come from poor, but honest folks near to the hills of Yarrow.
For getting of a maid with child, for England I sailed over.
I left my parents and became a wild and daring rover.

Straight to London I did go, where I became a soldier
Resolved to fight Britannia's foes. No sergeant-at-arms was bolder.
They shipped me to a foreign shore where cannons loud did rattle.
Believe me, boys, I do not boast how I behaved in battle.

Many's the battle I fought in, in Holland and French Flanders.
I always fought with a courage keen led on by brave commanders.
But a cruel ensign called me out and I was flogged and carted.
Cruel the usage that I got, and so I soon deserted.

Straight to England I set sail as fast as wind could heave me,
Resolved that of my liberty that no one should deprive me.
I slept into the woods by night, by all my friends forsaken.
I dared not to walk the roads by day for fear I should be taken.

But being of a courage keen and likewise able bodied,
I robbed Lord Lowndes on the King's highway with pistols heavy loaded.
I clapped the pistols to his breast, which set his heart a-quiver.
Five hundred pound in ready gold to me he did deliver.

With part of my new store of wealth, I bought a famous gelding
That over a five-bar gate could jump. I bought him from Ned Fielding.
Lord Arkinstone into his coach I robbed at Covent Garden,
And two hours later that same night I robbed the Earl of Warren.

One night I robbed at Turnham Green a revenue collector,
And what I got I gave it to a widow to protect her.
I always robbed the rich and great. To rob the poor I scorn-ed,
And now in iron chains I'm bound, in doom I now lie born-ed.

It's now in Newgate I'm confined and by the laws convicted.
To hang on Tyburn tree's my fate at which I'm much affrighted.
Farewell, my friends and countrymen and my native hills of Yarrow.
Kind providence shall test the soul of Allan Tyne of Harrow.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow
From: Garry Gillard
Date: 15 Jan 01 - 08:25 AM

Pardon my ignorance: who are Keene/Faulkner?

Garry

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 Jan 01 - 08:50 AM

Biography of Dolores Keane (also mentioning her husband John Faulkner).

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow
From: Anglo
Date: 15 Jan 01 - 12:28 PM

Isn't that "ex-husband"?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow
From: InOBU
Date: 15 Jan 01 - 03:24 PM

Jeeze Wolfgang!!!! Valintine O'Hara, very interesting, My band does both songs, as well a a huge bunch of highwayman songs - I was a bit dubious of the Newry Highway man being from the same root as Alan Tyne, until you and John unpacked the name ... it is very like the process of Americanizing place names in English ballads that goes on the the Ozark tradition, Valintine - Alantyne, I'm really impressed, thanks lads...
Larry

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow
From: MartinRyan
Date: 16 Jan 01 - 07:21 PM

The Bodleian Library collection has several versions of this. Here's one.

Regards

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow
From: BeauDangles
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 12:56 PM

Apologies to all for bringing up an old thread and possibly rehashing already long-settled issues, but I thought I would throw my own two cents into the kitty on this one.

Small stuff: Verse 2 should have "Seargent-at-Arms," as in a rank. At least the way I've always "heard" it. In verse 4 he definitely "slipped" into the woods, and I've always heard "I dare not walk the roads by day" as opposed to "dared not to walk." Grammatically, that sudden switch to present tense doesn't make much sense, though, so I would probably go with "dared not walk." I agree that the last line is "Allen Tyne of Harrow" not Yarrow.

The one big difference I hear is in verse 7, where I hear him (Faulkner) saying "in doom I now lie mourn-ed." It's an odd sounding, rather hard "m" but it makes more sense than "born-ed"

Fascinating discussion on a really lovely song. As I have often before I again sing the praises of the Keane/Faulkner recording "Broken Hearted I'll Wander." I never tire of listening to it.

BeauD

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow
From: Wolfgang
Date: 09 Sep 01 - 08:12 AM

Beau,

your post was a welcome reason to listen to that recording again. I agree with you except for the 'm'. I don't hear it as much as I try, but it makes very good sense. Perhaps the singer just made a tiny mistake or had difficulties with the breathing for a split second.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow
From: breezy
Date: 09 Sep 01 - 11:36 AM

webber & fentiman have it on 'constant lovers' if not then its on beggars velvet

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow
From: RoyH (Burl)
Date: 09 Sep 01 - 02:30 PM

I think that John Faulkner got his 'Alan Tyne o' Harrow' from Ewan MacColl during his (Faulkner's) time on the Critics Group. MacColl sang the song often. Sang it beautifully too.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow
From: Abby Sale
Date: 12 Jun 03 - 05:00 PM

I'm just learning this fine song. I'm using the Peter Bellamy 1974 recording of "Alan Tyne of Harrow." He also says he got it from Ewan MacColl who got it from an 18th century broadside. So that's at least 59 years earlier than the Bodley broadside mentioned above.

I find nothing to add to the above posts in a web search today.
Has anyone (John? Wolfgang?) come on any additional information on the broadside MacColl refers to (or any other) or the actual historiosity of Alan and/or Valentine?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow
From: Nerd
Date: 13 Jun 03 - 11:08 AM

I still don't think "Valentine" and "Newry Highwayman" are so closely related. Ned Fielding, as the magistrate who essentially established the police force, would naturally be mentioned by many highwaymen. But the context is different; in Valentine he gets the better of Fielding, in Newry Fielding's gang captures him. The songs have no real rhymes in common, etc. By most of the means by which we judge relationships, these songs are unrelated--except that, obviously, they are from the same era, the same country, and on the same popular theme.

Great thread!

Subject: Lyr Add: VALENTINE O'HARA (from Bodleian)
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 17 Jun 03 - 12:43 AM

Transcribed by me from the broadside images at Bodleian Library Broadside Ballads, with spelling and punctuation somewhat modernized. The three versions there--Harding B 11(2471), Harding B 11(3963), and Firth b.34(4a)--are almost identical. Where I found a significant difference, I have indicated the alternative word or phrase in brackets.

VALENTINE O'HARA

I am a daring highwayman. They call me Valentine O'Hara.
I came of honest decent friends nigh to the Hills of Tara.
For seducing of a pretty maid, to England I sailed over,
Leaving my parents almost wild since I became a rover.

To London City I did go, where I became a soldier,
Resolved to fight 'gainst Britain's foes. Great Hector ne'er was bolder.
They sent me to a foreign coast where cannons did loudly rattle.
Believe me, sir, I do not boast, for I well behaved in battle.

Many battles I have been in through Holland and French Flanders.
I always fought with courage keen, led on by brave commanders.
Brave and undaunted I behaved, I being valiant-hearted.
For the base usage I received, alas! I have deserted.

To old England I then sailed as quick as the wind could drive me,
Resolvèd on my liberty no man should e'er deprive me,
When I arrived on English shore and found my name [or "myself"] gazetted,
At which my heart was grieved full sore, and thereat was much fretted.

How to behave I did not know, being void of friends and money.
Desertion caused it to be so, and brought destruction on me.
In open fields I lay all night, lest I should be suspected,
Nor dare not travel in daylight for fear I'd be detected.

I being resolute and bold, likewise able-bodied,
To stand the road I did resolve, with pistols heavy loaded.
To rob upon the king's highway was my determination,
Then to the road without delay, no further hesitation.

The very first I ever robbed was a great Lord of Honor.
That nobleman I did assault all in a roguish manner.
I said, "My lord, I demand your coin. Make no delay, but give it;
Or if you don't, it's my design by powder and ball to have it."

I cocked my pistol to his breast, which causèd him to shiver.
Three hundred guineas, I protest, to me he did deliver.
His gold repeater watch likewise to me he did surrender.
I thought it was a gallant prize when he the gold did tender.

With part of the money, I purchased a famous gelding,
Over a five-barred gate would leap. I bought of Mr. Shelding.
When mounted on my flying steed, I looked both bold and daring.
When to the road I went with speed, for I no man was fearing.

One night, I robbed Lord Edgers not far from Covent Garden,
And in three hours after that, I stopped Attorney Harding.
Balls, and plays, streets, roads, and lanes, I robbed both Dukes and Earls,
Myself in grandeur [or "splendor"] to maintain and to support my [or "the"] girls.

When I met the distressed poor, when poverty did grieve them,
I always was myself inclined with money to relieve them.
I laid upon the rich and great. To rob the poor I scorn.
Alas! That won't prevent my fate this day at old Tyburn.

Here in Newgate close confined, I am by law convicted.
Tyburn Tree I am destined, where I am much afflicted.
Adieu, my country and my friends, and the ancient hills of Tara!
Kind providence may rest the soul of Valentine O'Hara.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow
From: GUEST,John Moulden
Date: 28 Jun 03 - 06:19 AM

A last word as far as I am concerned, on this song or songs.

There's been debate over the priority of versions - Alan Tyne of Harrow or Valentine O'Hara - personally I can't understand why but that might simply prove my being influenced by the well known philosopher M. Chauvin. However, in attempting to find an incident affecting Val O'Hara I used the Index to the Belfast Newsletter 1737 - 1800 which is on the Illinois University servers and while drawing a blank on a highwayman of that name found that the name existed - there are at least two reports.

Consequently I'm confirmed in my belief that Alan Tyne of Harrow is merely a phonetic rendering of Valentine O'Hara and that yet another attempt by the English to appropriate Irish cultural artifacts has been foiled!

John Moulden

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 03:07 PM

Hello,

Was amazed to find this thread, I've been looking for info on 'Valentine O'Hara' for a while without much success. The history of it is fascinating stuff. My dad has the Steve Turner version, which is just fantastic. I'm trying to find a chord sequence for this, as the banjo in the recording plays a kind of counter-melody and I'm having difficulty working the chords out. If anyone can help me that'd be great.

Thanks

Joe Rybicki

[e-mail]

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow
From: Barry Finn
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 07:22 PM

It been quite a while since I've sung this or even thought of it. So thanks for the refreshing Joe. I used to sing this accompanying myself with bodhram. I guess it's time I started singing & playing it again.

Barry

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow
From: GUEST,Michael Green.
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 02:53 PM

Has anyone got the music, old notes on staves please Not ABC. Midi would be ok
Thanks
[e-mail]

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow / Valentine O'Hara
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 11:38 PM

Rather shocking to find this thread. I heard John Faulkner sing this song with Dolores Keane about 1981 (or was it 2?)at McCabes in Santa Monica, CA. I never forgot the song or the energy of their terrific performance. John sang this solo, as on "Broken Hearted," and being a wannabe picker I tried hard to decipher John's fine guitar work. I do remember that he capo'd at fret 4 or 5, and played most of the song in a standard "C" position that he would slide up two frets with regularity. That same night I tried to recreate the opening run on my guitar, certain of success, and ended up wishing I had asked JF about the tuning when I had the chance! Does anyone know it? It's not DADGAD or an open tuning I'm familiar with. Maybe Orkney? Anyway, this great thread has inspired me to try to work it out again. Thanks for the memories!

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow / Valentine O'Hara
From: MartinRyan
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 07:55 PM

Hear the late Frank Harte singing this one (at an unusually brisk pace) on Youtube HERE

Regards

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow / Valentine O'Hara
From: Artful Codger
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 12:08 AM

Unusually brisk?? For him, or for the song?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow / Valentine O'Hara
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 04:22 AM

English or Irish; Ewan MacColl resurrected it and introduced it to the revival in a Scots version; it was this that everybody sang - Frank Harte certainly acknowledged this on several occasions.
John Faulkner started singing it around the same time I did and we both got it directly from Ewan.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow / Valentine O'Hara
From: Mr Happy
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 09:58 AM

Sounds like a classic Mondegreen!!

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow / Valentine O'Hara
From: Mr Happy
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 10:00 AM

.........aka 'Dewey Den of Yarrow'!

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow / Valentine O'Hara
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 10:26 AM

classic Mondegreen

Like Shores Of Erin for Shoals Of Herring?

Peter Bellamy did a very fine Allan, Tyne Of Harrow.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow / Valentine O'Hara
From: MartinRyan
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 05:25 PM

Artful Codger

For Frank, frankly.... I heard him sing it, many's the time.

Regards

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow / Valentine O'Hara
From: GUEST,schlimmerkerl
Date: 10 May 10 - 03:16 PM

I'll bet the gold in the fifth verse is "ruddy"-- very often an archaic description of the metal-- and not "ready".

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow / Valentine O'Hara
From: Artful Codger
Date: 11 May 10 - 03:01 AM

Interesting hypothesis, but likely hard to prove. All the "Valentine O'Harra" broadsides I've seen say "Three hundred guineas I protest...", while the Allan Tyne versions seem to agree on "Five hundred pounds in ready gold..."

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow / Valentine O'Ha
From: GUEST,jhan
Date: 19 Feb 11 - 12:11 AM

Since banks, and checks, and credit cards had not come into being at the time, and travelers had to carry on their persons the funds necessary for their expenses on their journeys, 'ready' gold, meaning gold immediately at hand, would be the correct wording.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow / Valentine O'Hara
From: MartinRyan
Date: 20 Oct 14 - 02:24 PM

Recording of Niamh Parsons singing this now at The Góilín Song Project:

Click here

Regards

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow / Valentine O'Hara
From: GUEST
Date: 23 Feb 15 - 10:52 PM

I first heard this sung by an Aussie, and since there is a town in NSW called Yarrow, it would be possible for a man to be born in Yarrow, and "sail over" to England to escape a scandal. What that says for the order or precedence I don't know.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow / Valentine O'Hara
From: Daniel Kelly
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 04:29 AM

It seems that before there was a Valentine O'Hara, or indeed an Alan Tyne of Yarra(ow), the song was published as 'The Daring Highwayman' in at least two broadsides, one around 1828/1829.

You would think that if there was a famous highwayman of either name, there would be some newspaper or court records.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow / Valentine O'Hara
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 06:35 AM

I think the name was Ballentine O'Hara, and I'm pretty sure he existed
I think teh problem here is the assumption that the song was Irish when only a small fragment of any Irish version exists in W.P.Joyce's collection
MacColl's version was the first to be issued on an album and it with a few adaptations by Frank Harte is the one popularly sung
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow / Valentine O'Hara
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 02:09 PM

Anyone got a copy of the Allan Tine broadside please? It's obviously a Scottish adaptation of the 'Valentine' version which others have suggested. My records tell me there are 2 versions at Harvard, one printed by MacNee of Stirling and the other in Falkirk, the latter also for sale in a Jarndyce of London catalogue, c1835. In English oral tradition it's known as The Jolly Highwayman (Roud 1553).

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow / Valentine O'Hara
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 02:59 PM

Think John Moulden might have a copy
Jim

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow / Valentine O'Hara
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 03:03 PM

Steve

There's a Macnie book at archive: Allan Tine O' Harrow (to which are added, Highland laddie, Bonnie Wood of Craigie lea

There's also another 1925 Stirling chapbook: Allan Tine o’ Harrow (to which are added, Jack in his element; The beds of roses)


Are these what you're looking for?

Mick

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow / Valentine O'Hara
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 03:38 PM

Brilliant as always, Mick. I should really investigate Archive when I've got a bit more time. I haven't got that copy of Banks of Roses either.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow / Valentine O'Hara
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 05:51 PM

I knew they were there - I'd downloaded them earlier today myself! (after this thread came up of course).

Mick

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow / Valentine O'Hara
From: Daniel Kelly
Date: 09 Mar 19 - 09:41 PM

I was almost ready to concede the English ownership of this ballad, but then found a reference in the Ulster Journal of Archeology, showing that 'Adventures of Valentine O'Hara' was part of a song book published in 1802, link
here. Any advances on 1802?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow / Valentine O'Hara
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 06:32 AM

That looks like the earliest dated reference Daniel. The earliest reference in the Roud index is for Lyle: Chapbooks with Irish Imprints (IFMS 2 1974-1976) No.94 giving Dublin, 1814 as the date.

Mick

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow / Valentine O'Hara
From: Daniel Kelly
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 08:12 AM

The only O'Hara hung at Tyburn prior to 1802 was a Patrick O'Hara listed here, executed in November 1763, however, the transcript of his trial here does not sound like a daring highwayman with a long career, just a petty thief sailor in the wrong place at the wrong time.

There are plenty of 'Valentines' with other last names, but if you are going to make the effort of writing a song about someone 'famous' you would think the getting the correct last name would be critical. Maybe this highwayman wasn't hung at Tyburn, but then why put it in the song?

The tradition seems to be that these songs were often written around the time of an execution/trial to romanticise the life of the accused/executed (and for song sellers to make a few quid off the public interest).

I had a lot of fun doing this setting of the song.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow / Valentine O'Hara
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 10 Mar 19 - 10:20 AM

Although the English printed version 'Daring Highwayman' mentions plenty of personal names it doesn't give the name of the highwayman himself. The one printed by Pitts is after 1819. The first stanza seems to contradict itself as to where he is from.

I am a daring highwayman likewise a gallant sailor
From London town I surely came since I became a rover,
For a maid who proved with child for England I sailed over,
I left my parents almost wild since I became a rover.

The gelding is bought of Jem Sheldon which sounds a more plausible name than those in some versions (Shelding). His sweeting is Polly. He lies in Newgate at the end and all of his exploits, once returned from abroad, take place in London.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow / Valentine O'Hara
From: Daniel Kelly
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 01:25 AM

I spent a bit of time researching deeper into this, results here , keen to hear thoughts on my conclusion.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow / Valentine O'Hara
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 10:48 AM

Tremendous piece of work Daniel - apart from the name, the chapbook texts are virtually the same as Ewan's - which possibly was his own alteration
The air he used for it was an adaptation of 'The Homes of Donegal' - he had a habit of using Irish tunes on occasion (listen to the Irish version of William Taylor and you'll find where he got his Tunnel Tigers air
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow / Valentine O'Hara
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 12:11 PM

yes, well done, Daniel, for pulling this together.

Just a few points which you might find helpful.

Personal names/proper nouns, as you can see are notoriously fickle in ballad reproduction, oral tradition and print and manuscript. Names can be changed deliberately as well as by accident, for all sorts of reasons.
You rightly say Allan Tyne is very likely a mondegreen, but there are cases, fewer undoubtedly, where someone has taken an odd sounding name and altered it to a name more plausible.

You mention the Flying Highwayman. This is very likely the broadside ballad 'Young Morgan' which on some sheets uses that title. Unfortunately though I've got lots of copies I don't think any of them are on the Bodleian site for you to look at. There is a version in Holloway and Black Vol 1 at p103.

Also the 8 page publications printed on a single sheet are known as chapbooks (cheap books sold by chapmen on the streets and in rural areas).

There are plenty of Irish highwaymen ballads, mostly their exploits take place in England (richer pickings) Willie Brennan, Wild and Wicked Youth, Whiskey in the Jar, and others.

Keep up the good work.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow / Valentine O'Hara
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 12:42 PM

For The Flying Highwayman and Young Morgan, see this article at Mustrad - Young Morgan

Mick

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow / Valentine O'Hara
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 01:17 PM

On the ball as eve, Mick. I think you've inherited Malcolm's spot.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow / Valentine O'Hara
From: Mick Pearce (MCP)
Date: 11 Mar 19 - 01:43 PM

Nah! Not even close!

Mick

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow / Valentine O'Hara
From: GUEST,KilliePet
Date: 15 Jun 19 - 02:56 AM

A very interesting read! Great to learn more after having listened so many times to this version by Nancy Kerr and James Fagan.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow / Valentine O'Hara
From: MartinNail
Date: 26 Sep 20 - 07:59 AM

I’ve only just caught up with this thread after some time, so apologies for not commenting sooner. I must say that Daniel Kelly has made a number of really important observations about Valentine O'Hara / Allan Tine of Harrow / Daring highwayman in his posts here and in his blog.

I’d like to highlight the following:

•        He identifies that the Daring highwayman (Roud 1553) is the same song as Valentine O'Hara / Allan Tine of Harrow (Roud 2403). I don’t think this has been mentioned here previously. I have passed this on to Steve Roud.

•        He has pretty conclusively (in my view) demonstrated that the story is not about a real person.

•        He has found a reference to an early Irish chapbook. This, together with the Dublin chapbook in the National Library of Scotland, seems to me to point to an Irish origin for the ballad and gives Valentine precedence over Allan Tine – the Irish chapbooks are from 1800/1815 whereas the Scottish ones are from the 1820s.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow / Valentine O'Hara
From: MartinNail
Date: 05 Oct 20 - 11:49 AM

I emailed Steve Roud and he is consolidating the numbers 1553 and 2403 at 1553. It'll be in the next update.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow / Valentine O'Hara
From: MartinNail
Date: 15 Oct 20 - 01:16 PM

I've now managed to obtain a digital copy of the Newry chapbook from the Royal Irish Academy. It is definitely the same ballad and so at 1802 is the earliest dated version of it.

As I mentioned before, there is a copy of a Dublin-printed chapbook in the National Library of Scotland (Lauriston Castle Collection LC 2909:7). This is undated but the NLS dates it to [1800?] -- I'm not sure on what basis, so it could be earlier or later than the Newry version. The two texts have basically the same thirteen stanzas and are identical in places but diverge in others; I can't see anything in the divergences to make me conculde which is earlier.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow / Valentine O'Hara
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 15 Oct 20 - 03:24 PM

All excellent stuff. Keep it coming, and well done to all.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow / Valentine O'Hara
From: Daniel Kelly
Date: 15 Oct 20 - 06:45 PM

Hi Martin,

Will add your confirmation of the 1802 version text to my blog post.

I thought I had this thread traced, but your posts didn't come up on my login.

The question left hanging then is if Valentine was the original subject of the ballad, was he a real person?

Cheers,

Daniel,

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow / Valentine O'Hara
From: MartinNail
Date: 16 Oct 20 - 11:33 AM

Daniel

Strictly speaking we haven't proved anything about the origins of the ballad. But we have got to a point where we can say that the earliest known versions of ballad are Irish. As I said earlier, your researches have pretty much convinced me that O'Hara is a fictional character.

But if it was written in Ireland at the turn of the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries (some time after the heyday of highwaymen), it was obviously composed by someone familiar with the genre of highwayman ballads. The Newry chapbook gives the ballad the title "Adventures of Valentine O’Hara, the flying Irish highwayman" which suggests to me that the author (or printer) knew the ballad "The flying highwayman" (a version of "Young Morgan"). Unfortunately I don't think that there are any dated copies of this title but "Young Morgan's garland" was published in 1775 according to the British Library and so predates Valentine.

Martin

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow / Valentine O'Hara
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 17 Oct 20 - 04:30 PM

I think lists of Newgate executions are online somewhere so the name O'Hara could perhaps be traced there. And of course as most of these highwaymen of the 17th/18th centuries operated near London there is every chance the ballads were written in London.

If O'Hara was operating in Ireland and the ballad was written there why bother with the description 'Irish'? I doubt very much if there were any highwaymen operating in Ireland who were of other nationalities.

Also I don't think too much weight should be put on the use of the word 'flying'. Presumably they were just fast movers like Swift Nick and The Flying Scotsman/Flying Dutchman.

I must fly!

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow / Valentine O'Hara
From: MartinNail
Date: 25 Oct 20 - 01:49 PM

As Jim Carroll said earlier in this thread, the version of Valentine O'Hara / Alan Tyne o' Harrow that everybody (in both Britain and Ireland) sings these days is derived from Ewan MacColl's. If you look at the texts it's clear that he adapted it from Allan Tine o' Harrow which was printed in at least six different Scottish chapbooks. He made various alterations, most notably cutting it down from twelve stanzas to eight. He also improved the scansion in places to make it more singable. I'm not sure why he changed 'great Hector ne’er was bolder' to 'no sergeant-at-arms was bolder' which doesn't occur in any of the editions of the chapbook that I've seen.

But does anyone know where MacColl found the text he based it on? Would he have owned a copy? Or found it in a library? If so which? Can Jim or any other former member of the Critics Group throw any light?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow / Valentine O'Hara
From: Liberty Boy
Date: 28 Oct 20 - 12:01 PM

Adventures of Valentine O'Hara
the
Flying Highway-man

I am a daring highwayman, my name is Val O'Hara.
I come of decent honest friends near to the Hill of Tara.
For getting a fair maid with child, to England I sailed over.
Leaving my parents almost wild, whilst I became a rover.

To London City I did go, where I became a soldier,
Resolved to fight against Briton's foe, great Hector ne’er was bolder.
I was sent to a foreign coast where cannons loudly rattle.
Believe me that I do not boast, I well behaved in battle.

In many battles I have been Thro’ Holland and French Flanders.
I always fought with courage keen, led on by bold commanders.
Brave and undaunted I behaved, for I being valiant hearted
But thro’ base usage I received, alas I soon deserted.

Then to old England I did sail, as fast as wind could drive me,
Resolved that of my liberty no man could e're deprive me,
When I arrived on England’s shore, and found my name gazetted
At which my heart was grieved sore, and there at was much fretted

How to behave I did not know, being void of friends and money
Desertion caused it to be so, and brought these troubles on me
In open fields I lurked night, lest I should be suspected
And dare not travel in daylight, for fear of being detected

I being resolute and bold, and likewise able-bodied,
To stand the road I then resolved, with pistols heavy loaded.
To rob upon the King’s highway, was my determination
Then to the road without delay, nor further hesitation

The very first I e’er did rob, was a great lord of honour
That nobleman I did assault, all in a robust manner
Said I ‘My Lord I demand your coin, make no delay but give it
If you refuse ’tis my design, by powder and ball to have it.

I cocked my pistol to his breast, which caused him for to shiver
Five hundred Guineas as I protest, to me he did deliver
His gold repeating watch likewise, to me he did surrender
I thought it was a gallant prize, when he his gold did tender

Then, with part of that money, I procured a famous gelding,
That o’er a five-bar gate could fly, I bought of a Mr. Shelding.
When mounted on my flying steed, I looked right bold and daring
Then to the road I went with speed, for, I no man was fearing

One night I robbed Lord Anglesey, not far from Covent Garden
And in three hours after that, I kopt at Attorney Harden
Balls and plays, road, street and lane, I robbed Lords Dukes and Earls
Myself in grandeur to maintain, and to support my girls

I never yet did stop a man, but those in high character
At Limehouse church one night, I robbed a revenue collector
From him I took five hundred pound, in Smiling Rhino ready
One hundred guineas of that prize, I did return his lady

When e’er I met distressed poor, when poverty did grieve them
I always found myself inclined, with money to relieve them
I laid upon the rich and great, to rob the poor I scorn
But that won’t prevent my fate, this day at old Tyburn

Now here in Newgate close confined, and by the laws convicted.
To Tyburn tree I am destined, and great I’m much afflicted.
Farewell my country and my friends, and the ancient Hill of Tara!
Kind providence may rest the soul of Valentine O'Hara.
Transcribed from the chapbook in the Royal Irish Academy, in Dawson St. in January of this year. Dated Newry 1802

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow / Valentine O'Hara
From: GUEST,Wm
Date: 28 Oct 20 - 12:23 PM

Smiling Rhino?!

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow / Valentine O'Hara
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 28 Oct 20 - 12:51 PM

Hi LB,
Martin sent me a copy of this and some of the others. BUT!

Does your posting mean that you have reasonable access to the RIA collections? Looking at their online catalogues there could be other useful pieces in there. I'm compiling a list of other possible titles for when someone can get in there and make copies. It's highly unlikely though that I will ever get there now though Martin is thinking of having a visit when things allow. I used to visit Dublin regularly at one time but wasn't aware of this collection and spent all of my time in ITMA copying their copies.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow / Valentine O'Hara
From: Brian Peters
Date: 28 Oct 20 - 02:10 PM

Martin wrote:
I'm not sure why he changed 'great Hector ne’er was bolder' to 'no sergeant-at-arms was bolder'

Presumably to make it sound less antiquarian and poetic, while conveying a more vernacular though still suitably archaic flavour. Not an unknown behaviour for either Ewan or Bert!

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow / Valentine O'Hara
From: MartinNail
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 07:23 AM

'Smiling rhino' is indeed a curious phrase. 'Shining rhino' might make more sense but both the 1802 Newry text and an undated chapbook printed in Dublin (now in the National Library of Scotland) definitely have 'Smiling'.

'Rhino' is of course a slang term for money, dating back to the seventeenth century. For a discussion on its etymology there is an excellent article on the World Wide Words site:
Rhino. This also mentions the phrase 'ready rhino' (which is a bit of a tautology).

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow / Valentine O'Hara
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 11:32 AM

The 'rhino' business intrigues me. He robs a revenue collector carrying £500. What form would this have been in? Bank notes? Mixed coinage? £500 of mixed coinage, he would have needed a handcart, n'est pas? Val then returns 100 guineas to his lady. Even that's quite a big bag. I doubt he had the time to stop and count them so were there 5 bags with 100 guineas in each?

I know, it doesn't pay to think too deeply about detail in a ballad, especially one which is likely to be fictional and the work of a hack.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow / Valentine O'Hara
From: Liberty Boy
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 04:43 PM

Steve, I have readers card for the RIA. and can go in there at any time when this Covid-19 nonsense is over. I've had a bit of a trawl through some of their stuff. Lots of interesting stuff there including a nice version of 'Father Murphy'. We're currently confined to 5km from home so no chance until December.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow / Valentine O'Hara
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 05:11 PM

That's great, LB. I've PMd you my email address. I'm sure there are other researchers in the UK who would be interested, such as Steve Roud. At the same time there are Irish printings in the BL that you might find useful, and I have copies of many of these and can send them. Goggin chapbooks in particular spring to mind.

I'm also very interested in earlier Irish versions of ballads that came over here and were widely printed such as Molly Bawn, Fanny Blair, Lakes of Coolfin, Strands of Magilligan....

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow / Valentine O'Hara
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 06:07 PM

100 guineas would weigh a couple of pounds and be a fist-sized bag.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow / Valentine O'Hara
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 06:26 PM

What intrigues me is that a revenue collector with that amount of money would, in the days of highwaymen, not have had an effective armed guard.

According to https://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/currency-converter/ in 1760 £500 had the purchasing power of £51,000 or (72 horses or 5000 days wages for a skilled workmen). About half that in 1810.

If the value was credible at the time of the song does it help date the song?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow / Valentine O'Hara
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 06:34 PM

Hmm, that converter can't be right - £10 a day in 1760?

However, even at that rate the hire of a heavy with sword and pistols would make sense.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow / Valentine O'Hara
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 30 Oct 20 - 06:39 PM

Sigh, OK, I was going from memory and it was the Lord not the revenue collector.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow / Valentine O'Hara
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 03:53 PM

No, it was both of them, jag. The lord in verses 7 & 8 and the revenue collector in verse 11.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow / Valentine O'Hara
From: GUEST,jag
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 06:53 PM

It was Allan Tyne I had roughly in my head - he didn't specifiy what he took from the revenue collector.

£500 twice is a bit repetetitive, could that be a sign of degradation, or something that a later singer or editor might tidy up?

I guess £500 in gold must have been a credible amount for a toff to have in their saddlebag when the song was written. Two reams of £50 notes would make a bulge in a pocket these days.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow / Valentine O'Hara
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 31 Oct 20 - 07:02 PM

Which again points to the ballad being fictional or exaggeration.
No O'Hara highwayman features in the Newgate Calendar during the 18th century.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow / Valentine O'Hara
From: MartinNail
Date: 01 Nov 20 - 07:17 AM

Brian

That's a lovely turn of phrase.

I didn't mention all the changes that MacColl made. I find it interesting that he burnished the protagonist's Robin Hood credentials by omitting the line "Myself in grandeur to maintain and to support my girls" and having him give the money he stole from the revenue collector "to a widow to protect her", rather than returning it to the collector's lady.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow / Valentine O'Hara
From: MartinNail
Date: 01 Nov 20 - 07:25 AM

Liberty Boy (is that you, Jerry?)

According to the RIA online catalogue there are three other chapbooks (all printed in Dundalk) containing Valentine O'Hara, which I assume you might have looked at. Are the texts much the same as the 1802 Newry version or are there any significant differences?

Martin

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow / Valentine O'Hara
From: Phil Edwards
Date: 01 Nov 20 - 04:47 PM

Peter Bellamy was apparently convinced that this was written by an actual highwayman, the details being so vivid and specific, but it ain't necessarily so - and not just because armed robbers aren't usually noted for their literary skill*.

The first** time I read the Gospel of John I was taken aback by how vivid some of the descriptions were - very odd to a modern eye, when you think how long after the event John is believed to have been written. An authority I consulted*** said that ideas of veracity were different then - if vivid details 'sold' the story better, vivid details it would have, even if you had to imagine what they might have been. Something similar applies to what seem like really vivid details in this song - "Lord Arkenstone", "the Earl of Warren" and the rest, not to mention Valentine O'Hara himself. Why make up a highwayman called Valentine of all things? Well, why not?

*Apart from Bonnie Parker
**and only
***my Mum

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow / Valentine O'Hara
From: Steve Gardham
Date: 02 Nov 20 - 11:14 AM

Other Valentines appear in the 18th century Newgate Calendar and there is an O'Hara but he wasn't tried for highway robbery. The language is also somewhat formulaic.