Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow / Valentine O'Hara

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow / Valentine O'Hara
From: MartinRyan
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 05:25 PM

Artful Codger

For Frank, frankly.... I heard him sing it, many's the time.

Regards

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow / Valentine O'Hara
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 10:26 AM

classic Mondegreen

Like Shores Of Erin for Shoals Of Herring?

Peter Bellamy did a very fine Allan, Tyne Of Harrow.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow / Valentine O'Hara
From: Mr Happy
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 10:00 AM

.........aka 'Dewey Den of Yarrow'!

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow / Valentine O'Hara
From: Mr Happy
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 09:58 AM

Sounds like a classic Mondegreen!!

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow / Valentine O'Hara
From: Jim Carroll
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 04:22 AM

English or Irish; Ewan MacColl resurrected it and introduced it to the revival in a Scots version; it was this that everybody sang - Frank Harte certainly acknowledged this on several occasions.
John Faulkner started singing it around the same time I did and we both got it directly from Ewan.
Jim Carroll

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow / Valentine O'Hara
From: Artful Codger
Date: 17 Mar 10 - 12:08 AM

Unusually brisk?? For him, or for the song?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow / Valentine O'Hara
From: MartinRyan
Date: 16 Mar 10 - 07:55 PM

Hear the late Frank Harte singing this one (at an unusually brisk pace) on Youtube HERE

Regards

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow / Valentine O'Hara
From: GUEST
Date: 03 Nov 09 - 11:38 PM

Rather shocking to find this thread. I heard John Faulkner sing this song with Dolores Keane about 1981 (or was it 2?)at McCabes in Santa Monica, CA. I never forgot the song or the energy of their terrific performance. John sang this solo, as on "Broken Hearted," and being a wannabe picker I tried hard to decipher John's fine guitar work. I do remember that he capo'd at fret 4 or 5, and played most of the song in a standard "C" position that he would slide up two frets with regularity. That same night I tried to recreate the opening run on my guitar, certain of success, and ended up wishing I had asked JF about the tuning when I had the chance! Does anyone know it? It's not DADGAD or an open tuning I'm familiar with. Maybe Orkney? Anyway, this great thread has inspired me to try to work it out again. Thanks for the memories!

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow
From: GUEST,Michael Green.
Date: 11 Aug 08 - 02:53 PM

Has anyone got the music, old notes on staves please Not ABC. Midi would be ok
Thanks
[e-mail]

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow
From: Barry Finn
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 07:22 PM

It been quite a while since I've sung this or even thought of it. So thanks for the refreshing Joe. I used to sing this accompanying myself with bodhram. I guess it's time I started singing & playing it again.

Barry

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow
From: GUEST,Joe
Date: 19 Sep 06 - 03:07 PM

Hello,

Was amazed to find this thread, I've been looking for info on 'Valentine O'Hara' for a while without much success. The history of it is fascinating stuff. My dad has the Steve Turner version, which is just fantastic. I'm trying to find a chord sequence for this, as the banjo in the recording plays a kind of counter-melody and I'm having difficulty working the chords out. If anyone can help me that'd be great.

Thanks

Joe Rybicki

[e-mail]

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow
From: GUEST,John Moulden
Date: 28 Jun 03 - 06:19 AM

A last word as far as I am concerned, on this song or songs.

There's been debate over the priority of versions - Alan Tyne of Harrow or Valentine O'Hara - personally I can't understand why but that might simply prove my being influenced by the well known philosopher M. Chauvin. However, in attempting to find an incident affecting Val O'Hara I used the Index to the Belfast Newsletter 1737 - 1800 which is on the Illinois University servers and while drawing a blank on a highwayman of that name found that the name existed - there are at least two reports.

Consequently I'm confirmed in my belief that Alan Tyne of Harrow is merely a phonetic rendering of Valentine O'Hara and that yet another attempt by the English to appropriate Irish cultural artifacts has been foiled!

John Moulden

Subject: Lyr Add: VALENTINE O'HARA (from Bodleian)
From: Jim Dixon
Date: 17 Jun 03 - 12:43 AM

Transcribed by me from the broadside images at Bodleian Library Broadside Ballads, with spelling and punctuation somewhat modernized. The three versions there--Harding B 11(2471), Harding B 11(3963), and Firth b.34(4a)--are almost identical. Where I found a significant difference, I have indicated the alternative word or phrase in brackets.

VALENTINE O'HARA

I am a daring highwayman. They call me Valentine O'Hara.
I came of honest decent friends nigh to the Hills of Tara.
For seducing of a pretty maid, to England I sailed over,
Leaving my parents almost wild since I became a rover.

To London City I did go, where I became a soldier,
Resolved to fight 'gainst Britain's foes. Great Hector ne'er was bolder.
They sent me to a foreign coast where cannons did loudly rattle.
Believe me, sir, I do not boast, for I well behaved in battle.

Many battles I have been in through Holland and French Flanders.
I always fought with courage keen, led on by brave commanders.
Brave and undaunted I behaved, I being valiant-hearted.
For the base usage I received, alas! I have deserted.

To old England I then sailed as quick as the wind could drive me,
Resolvèd on my liberty no man should e'er deprive me,
When I arrived on English shore and found my name [or "myself"] gazetted,
At which my heart was grieved full sore, and thereat was much fretted.

How to behave I did not know, being void of friends and money.
Desertion caused it to be so, and brought destruction on me.
In open fields I lay all night, lest I should be suspected,
Nor dare not travel in daylight for fear I'd be detected.

I being resolute and bold, likewise able-bodied,
To stand the road I did resolve, with pistols heavy loaded.
To rob upon the king's highway was my determination,
Then to the road without delay, no further hesitation.

The very first I ever robbed was a great Lord of Honor.
That nobleman I did assault all in a roguish manner.
I said, "My lord, I demand your coin. Make no delay, but give it;
Or if you don't, it's my design by powder and ball to have it."

I cocked my pistol to his breast, which causèd him to shiver.
Three hundred guineas, I protest, to me he did deliver.
His gold repeater watch likewise to me he did surrender.
I thought it was a gallant prize when he the gold did tender.

With part of the money, I purchased a famous gelding,
Over a five-barred gate would leap. I bought of Mr. Shelding.
When mounted on my flying steed, I looked both bold and daring.
When to the road I went with speed, for I no man was fearing.

One night, I robbed Lord Edgers not far from Covent Garden,
And in three hours after that, I stopped Attorney Harding.
Balls, and plays, streets, roads, and lanes, I robbed both Dukes and Earls,
Myself in grandeur [or "splendor"] to maintain and to support my [or "the"] girls.

When I met the distressed poor, when poverty did grieve them,
I always was myself inclined with money to relieve them.
I laid upon the rich and great. To rob the poor I scorn.
Alas! That won't prevent my fate this day at old Tyburn.

Here in Newgate close confined, I am by law convicted.
Tyburn Tree I am destined, where I am much afflicted.
Adieu, my country and my friends, and the ancient hills of Tara!
Kind providence may rest the soul of Valentine O'Hara.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow
From: Nerd
Date: 13 Jun 03 - 11:08 AM

I still don't think "Valentine" and "Newry Highwayman" are so closely related. Ned Fielding, as the magistrate who essentially established the police force, would naturally be mentioned by many highwaymen. But the context is different; in Valentine he gets the better of Fielding, in Newry Fielding's gang captures him. The songs have no real rhymes in common, etc. By most of the means by which we judge relationships, these songs are unrelated--except that, obviously, they are from the same era, the same country, and on the same popular theme.

Great thread!

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow
From: Abby Sale
Date: 12 Jun 03 - 05:00 PM

I'm just learning this fine song. I'm using the Peter Bellamy 1974 recording of "Alan Tyne of Harrow." He also says he got it from Ewan MacColl who got it from an 18th century broadside. So that's at least 59 years earlier than the Bodley broadside mentioned above.

I find nothing to add to the above posts in a web search today.
Has anyone (John? Wolfgang?) come on any additional information on the broadside MacColl refers to (or any other) or the actual historiosity of Alan and/or Valentine?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow
From: RoyH (Burl)
Date: 09 Sep 01 - 02:30 PM

I think that John Faulkner got his 'Alan Tyne o' Harrow' from Ewan MacColl during his (Faulkner's) time on the Critics Group. MacColl sang the song often. Sang it beautifully too.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow
From: breezy
Date: 09 Sep 01 - 11:36 AM

webber & fentiman have it on 'constant lovers' if not then its on beggars velvet

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow
From: Wolfgang
Date: 09 Sep 01 - 08:12 AM

Beau,

your post was a welcome reason to listen to that recording again. I agree with you except for the 'm'. I don't hear it as much as I try, but it makes very good sense. Perhaps the singer just made a tiny mistake or had difficulties with the breathing for a split second.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow
From: BeauDangles
Date: 07 Sep 01 - 12:56 PM

Apologies to all for bringing up an old thread and possibly rehashing already long-settled issues, but I thought I would throw my own two cents into the kitty on this one.

Small stuff: Verse 2 should have "Seargent-at-Arms," as in a rank. At least the way I've always "heard" it. In verse 4 he definitely "slipped" into the woods, and I've always heard "I dare not walk the roads by day" as opposed to "dared not to walk." Grammatically, that sudden switch to present tense doesn't make much sense, though, so I would probably go with "dared not walk." I agree that the last line is "Allen Tyne of Harrow" not Yarrow.

The one big difference I hear is in verse 7, where I hear him (Faulkner) saying "in doom I now lie mourn-ed." It's an odd sounding, rather hard "m" but it makes more sense than "born-ed"

Fascinating discussion on a really lovely song. As I have often before I again sing the praises of the Keane/Faulkner recording "Broken Hearted I'll Wander." I never tire of listening to it.

BeauD

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow
From: MartinRyan
Date: 16 Jan 01 - 07:21 PM

The Bodleian Library collection has several versions of this. Here's one.

Regards

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow
From: InOBU
Date: 15 Jan 01 - 03:24 PM

Jeeze Wolfgang!!!! Valintine O'Hara, very interesting, My band does both songs, as well a a huge bunch of highwayman songs - I was a bit dubious of the Newry Highway man being from the same root as Alan Tyne, until you and John unpacked the name ... it is very like the process of Americanizing place names in English ballads that goes on the the Ozark tradition, Valintine - Alantyne, I'm really impressed, thanks lads...
Larry

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow
From: Anglo
Date: 15 Jan 01 - 12:28 PM

Isn't that "ex-husband"?

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 Jan 01 - 08:50 AM

Biography of Dolores Keane (also mentioning her husband John Faulkner).

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow
From: Garry Gillard
Date: 15 Jan 01 - 08:25 AM

Pardon my ignorance: who are Keene/Faulkner?

Garry

Subject: Lyr Add: ALLAN TYNE OF HARROW
From: Wolfgang
Date: 15 Jan 01 - 03:53 AM

With a thanks to Stewie and Martin, here's the latest attempt. Yes, Faulkner sings 'me' instead of 'my' throughout, but I don't know what the policy of Mudcat is in these cases.

John

In the first verse, 'for England I sailed over' makes a bit more sense when the man comes from Ireland than when he comes from Yarrow. There are now altogether at least three indicators that 'Valentine O'Hara' is the version that comes first.

Wolfgang

ALLAN TYNE OF HARROW
(VALENTINE O'HARA)

I am a bold young highwayman; my name is Tyne of Harrow.
I come from poor, but honest folks near to the hills of Yarrow.
For getting of a maid with child, for England I sailed over.
I left my parents and became a wild and daring rover.

Straight to London I did go, where I became a soldier
Resolved to fight Britannia's foes. No sergeant-at-arms was bolder.
They shipped me to a foreign shore where cannons loud did rattle.
Believe me, boys, I do not boast how I behaved in battle.

Many's the battle I fought in, in Holland and French Flanders.
I always fought with a courage keen led on by brave commanders.
But a cruel ensign called me out and I was flogged and carted.
Cruel the usage that I got, and so I soon deserted.

Straight to England I set sail as fast as wind could heave me,
Resolved that of my liberty that no one should deprive me.
I slept into the woods by night, by all my friends forsaken.
I dared not to walk the roads by day for fear I should be taken.

But being of a courage keen and likewise able bodied,
I robbed Lord Lowndes on the King's highway with pistols heavy loaded.
I clapped the pistols to his breast, which set his heart a-quiver.
Five hundred pound in ready gold to me he did deliver.

With part of my new store of wealth, I bought a famous gelding
That over a five-bar gate could jump. I bought him from Ned Fielding.
Lord Arkinstone into his coach I robbed at Covent Garden,
And two hours later that same night I robbed the Earl of Warren.

One night I robbed at Turnham Green a revenue collector,
And what I got I gave it to a widow to protect her.
I always robbed the rich and great. To rob the poor I scorn-ed,
And now in iron chains I'm bound, in doom I now lie born-ed.

It's now in Newgate I'm confined and by the laws convicted.
To hang on Tyburn tree's my fate at which I'm much affrighted.
Farewell, my friends and countrymen and my native hills of Yarrow.
Kind providence shall test the soul of Allan Tyne of Harrow.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow
From: John Moulden
Date: 13 Jan 01 - 12:29 PM

Sorry to throw a spanner but there was an Irish Valentine O'Hara - I'm virtually certain, I have a newspaper reference to his execution - sometime I think in 1800

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow
From: InOBU
Date: 12 Jan 01 - 02:20 PM

The five bar gate was the gates that replaced the turn pike - turnstyles of the turnpikes after they would be often jumped by highwaymen. There is a great etching of Dick Turpin leeping a five bar gate on his mare, Black Bess, who died before he did, much to his sorrow. Anyone with knowlege - well more than that, knows of proof of Turpin surviving his hanging, please post here, any Romanichale decendants of Turpin on Mudcat?
Larry

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow
From: MartinRyan
Date: 11 Jan 01 - 03:37 PM

"of" in this case, Wolfgang.

Regards

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow
From: Wolfgang
Date: 11 Jan 01 - 11:55 AM

Stewie,
thanks for the corrections, you're probably right on all accounts, I'll make a new printout after relistening. Can you help me with of/off in the first verse (I've never heard the expression, though the meaning is clear).

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow
From: Stewie
Date: 10 Jan 01 - 07:26 PM

Great song, Wolfgang. Well worthy of a guersey in the DT. A couple of things I hear differently:

Last line should be Allan Tyne of Harrow (not Yarrow)

Faulkner sings 'me' rather than the grammatically correct 'my' in all cases.

Verse 4: I hear 'I slipped into the woods' (but it's a toss-up with 'slept')

Verse 5: Sounds more like 'Lord Lowndes' and 'Which set his heart a-quiver'

Verse 6: 'That over a five-bar gate'

Verse 7: 'To rob the poor I scorn-ed' and 'In doom I now lie born-ed'

Cheers, Stewie.

Subject: Lyr Add: ALLAN TYNE OF HARROW
From: Wolfgang
Date: 08 Jan 01 - 08:34 AM

Here's the best guess after listening once more. I'm rather confident now but some of the proper names are guesses. Sorry for misspelling Dolores Keane's last name in the first post. The singer of this song on the LP 'Broken hearted I'll wander' is John Faulkner. For the tune go here and click on track nine.

Wolfgang

ALLAN TYNE OF HARROW
(VALENTINE O'HARA)

I am a bold young highwayman. My name is Tyne of Harrow.
I come from poor but honest folks near to the hills of Yarrow.
For getting of(f) a maid with child, for England I sailed over.
I left my parents and became a wild and daring rover.

Straight to London I did go, where I became a soldier.
Resolved to fight Britannia's foes, no sergeant-at-arms was bolder.
They shipped me to a foreign shore where cannons loud did rattle.
Believe me, boys, I do not boast how I behaved in battle.

Many's the battle I fought in, in Holland and French Flanders.
I always fought with a courage keen, led on by brave commanders.
But a cruel ensign called me out and I was flogged and carted.
Cruel the usage that I got, and so I soon deserted.

Straight to England I set sail as fast as wind could heave me,
Resolved that of my liberty, that no one should deprive me.
I slept into the woods by night, by all my friends forsaken.
I dared not to walk the roads by day for fear I should be taken.

But being of a courage keen and likewise able bodied,
I robbed Lord Lyons on the King's highway with pistols heavy loaded.
I clapped the pistols to his breast, which set his heart to quiver.
Five hundred pound in ready gold to me he did deliver.

With part of my new store of wealth, I bought a famous gelding
That over a five-barred gate could jump. I bought him from Ned Fielding.
Lord Arkinstone into his coach I robbed at Covent Garden,
And two hours later that same night, I robbed the Earl of Warren.

One night I robbed at Turnham Green a revenue collector,
And what I got I gave it to a widow to protect her.
I always robbed the rich and great. To rob the poor, I scorn it;
And now in iron chains I'm bound. In doom I now lie borne at.

It's now in Newgate I'm confined and by the laws convicted,
To hang on Tyburn tree's my fate, at which I'm much affrighted.
Farewell my friends and countrymen, and my native hills of Yarrow.
Kind providence shall test the soul of Allan Tyne of Yarrow.

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow
From: Wolfgang
Date: 04 Jan 01 - 07:08 AM

Martin, you're right, these words were mine and not yours, sorry.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow
From: MartinRyan
Date: 04 Jan 01 - 07:02 AM

Wolfgang

I'm sure I never suggested it was "nothing but an Irish version ...."! I glory in the connections!

Regards

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow
From: Wolfgang
Date: 04 Jan 01 - 06:06 AM

Sorry, I souldn't have relied on another person's transcription without listening again to the singing. I spy some inconsistencies (last line: 'rest' instead of 'test'; before last verse, last line, there might by the name 'Tyburn' hidden). If nobody else corrects me, I'll be back on Monday with a better transcription.

Wolfgang

Subject: RE: Lyr Add: Allan Tyne of Harrow
From: Wolfgang
Date: 04 Jan 01 - 05:50 AM

'slipped' in the second verse should read 'shipped', sorry. Wolfgang

Subject: Allan Tyne of Harrow
From: Wolfgang
Date: 04 Jan 01 - 05:47 AM

Recently, I searched here for the lyrics to a song called 'Valentine O'Hara' that was on a beautiful tape (featuring Steve Turner, Outstack) sent to me by GAZ. The song's not here, but I found an old thread on The Newry Highwayman in which Martin Ryan claimed that 'Valentine O'Hara' was nothing but the Irish version of the song 'Allan (Allen) Tyne of Harrow'.
Martin's dead right and this way I have found the lyrics (thank you!) to Valentine O'Hara for I already had a transcription of the Keene/Faulkner LP version of Allan Tyne of Harrow (shame on me for not recognising the similarity, for even the tunes are nearly identical).
Neither version is in the DT yet and I think this should be changed.

Here's a transcription (not by me) of 'Allan Tyne of Harrow' as sung by Keene/Faulkner on the LP 'Broken hearted I'll wander'. Minor errors (especially in the proper names) might be left.

ALLAN TYNE OF HARROW
(VALENTINE O'HARA)

I am a bold young highwayman,
My name is Tyne of Harrow,
I come from poor, but honest folks
Near to the hills of Yarrow.
For getting off a maid with child
For England I sailed over.
I left my parents and became
A wild and daring rover.

Straight to London I did go,
Where I became a soldier
Resolved to fight Britannia's foes,
No sergeant at arms was bolder.
They slipped me to a foreign shore
Where cannons loud did rattle.
Believe me, boys, I do not boast
How I behaved in battle.

Many's the battle I fought in,
In Holland and French Flanders.
I always fought with a courage keen
Led on by brave commanders.
But a cruel ensign called me out
And I was flogged and carted.
Cruel the usage that I got,
And so I soon deserted.

Straight to England I set sail
As fast as wind could heave me,
Resolved that of my liberty
That no one should deprive me.
I slept into the woods by night,
By all my friends forsaken.
I dared not to walk the roads by day
For fear I should be taken

But being of a courage keen
And likewise able bodied
I robbed Lords Lyons on the King's highway
With pistols heavy loaded.
I clapped the pistols to his breast
Which set his heart to quiver,
500 pound in ready gold
to me he did deliver.

With part of my new store of wealth
I bought a famous gelding
That over a five yard gate could jump
I bought him from Ned Fielding.
Lord Arkinson (?) into his coach
I robbed at Covent Garden
And two hours later that same night
I robbed the Earl of Warren.

One night I robbed at Turner Green
A revenue collector,
And what I got I gave it to
A widow to protect her.
I always robbed the rich and great,
To rob the poor I scorn it,
And now in iron chains I'm bound,
in doom I now lie borne at.

It's now in Newgate I'm confined
And by the laws convicted,
To hang on Tyburn tree's my fate
at which I'm much affrighted.
Farewell my friends and countrymen
And my native hills of Yarrow,
Kind providence shall test the soul
of Allan Tyne of Yarrow.

The two versions of this ballad I know of, Valentine O'Hara (Harra) and Allan (Allen) Tyne of Harrow, are nearly identical except for the spelling of the names (pronounce them and you'll see that one is but a mondegreen of the other). And of course, Valentine O'Hara doesn't come from Yarrow as Allan does, but from Tara (Tarra). It seems that Valentine O'Hara is the Irish, and Allan Tyne of Harrow the English variant. I do not know which comes first, but Bodley Ballads only know Valentine O'Har(r)a which might be taken as indicative. Newry highwayman (Newry town, Newlyn town, Wild and wicked youth,...) is a different ballad in my eyes, but the similarities cannot be overlooked (you'll find e.g. the name Fielding in both ballads).

Wolfgang