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Gonna larn me the fiddle
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Subject: Gonna larn me the fiddle From: Wincing Devil Date: 05 Jan 01 - 06:06 PM I'm not one who believes in new year's resolutions, but new millenium resolutions, I'll take a stab at. I enjoy listening to a good fiddle tune, so I thought Id get me a fiddle and larn me [sic] to play it. I've been looking around on eBay and elsewhere for "used student violin". What else should I be looking for? A Good Shrink?
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Subject: RE: Gonna larn me the fiddle From: Morticia Date: 05 Jan 01 - 06:17 PM Oh don't sell our Edgar no more violins That dear little laddie of mine For though he's but eight, we'd prefer him to wait Or I doubt if he'll live to see nine Pam Ayres |
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Subject: RE: Gonna larn me the fiddle From: Stewart Date: 05 Jan 01 - 06:34 PM Mortica, that's not nice (I like it, actually), but I think there's some truth to it. When I started to learn violin at age 8, I think there were a couple of years when my parents couldn't bear to hear me practice. But then things got better. I quit playing in high school (much to my later regret). After 40+ years, I bought a fiddle a couple of years ago and was surprised that I began about where I had left off years ago. In buying a fiddle, IMO I would stay away from the inexpensive (cheap) shiny machine-made instruments from east europe or china and go for an old instrument (something with character). Get a fiddle player to help you. You would probably do best at a folk music shop rather than a violin shop. I was lucky and picked up a pretty good instrument from a guitar shop which just happened to have fiddle. Got it for a good price. Anyway, good luck, it's great fun! Cheers, S. in Seattle |
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Subject: RE: Gonna larn me the fiddle From: Alice Date: 05 Jan 01 - 06:38 PM look for a decent bow |
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Subject: RE: Gonna larn me the fiddle From: Stewart Date: 05 Jan 01 - 07:48 PM I'll second Alice's recommendation for a decent bow. It makes an amazing difference. A good source of "fiddle lore" including a good chapter on buying a fiddle is The Fiddler's Almanac by Ryan Thomson. S. in Seattle |
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Subject: RE: Gonna larn me the fiddle From: murray@mpce.mq.edu.au Date: 05 Jan 01 - 09:05 PM Wincing, there is a difference between some country fiddles are set up from the way classical violins are. You might find the thread Violin or fiddle of interest. Murray |
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Subject: RE: Gonna larn me the fiddle From: Mark Clark Date: 06 Jan 01 - 05:58 PM WD, I don't think you have to settle for a student model just to save money. You can still find wonderful sounding fiddles without having to spend a fortune. If you're not a fiddle player now, take along someone who is (have them bring their own bow) and have them play each one you're considering using the same bow. It shouldn't take too long to find a nice sounding instrument you can afford. Then, of course, follow the advice of Alice and Stewart and buy a good bow. This may actually be more expensive than the fiddle. The thing about violins is that their market value has no relation to their tonal characteristics. Value is determined by things like style, craftsmanship, pedigree, age, etc. The sound of a violin is thought to be a matter of taste and isn't really a factor. Some expensive instruments can sound really average and some "cheap" (not cheaply made) instruments can have just the sound you're looking for. Once in a while you'll run across a great amatuer-made fiddle that is nearly worthless in a monetary sense. Some of these can look pretty funny but may have just the sound and touch you're looking for. Here in the heartland, there are people who sift the violin market by buying and quickly selling great numbers of instruments that they get cheaply from estate sales, flea markets and private parties. They are really looking for the occasional valuable instrument that may still be uncovered but in the meantime, they move a lot of fiddles in the $100 - $200 price range often much less if they want their money back to reinvest. I'm guessing the practice is not regional and you can find such people where you live as well. Odd thing though... these people almost never have any good bows. Good luck, - Mark |
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Subject: RE: Gonna larn me the fiddle From: Gypsy Date: 06 Jan 01 - 11:31 PM And remember, practice outside or your cats will go bald. Oh well, guess it is too late, huh? |
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Subject: RE: Gonna larn me the fiddle From: Sorcha Date: 06 Jan 01 - 11:37 PM It's very important to get someone to go with you who plays. You need to hear the sound both under your chin, and from several feet away.....they are not the same. String brand and set up both make a BIG difference in sound. My "co-fiddler" has been saying she is not happy with her fiddle sound....sounded fine to me from several feet away. She made me play it tonight, and I heard what she has been hearing, and it is awful. Sort of like mini wolf tones on the E and A string. If I had to play it all the time, I wouldn't like it either, but I don't know what is wrong with it. It has always sounded OK to her until a recent string change, and she didn't change brands either. (????) Who knows? Fiddles are haunted, I think. |
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Subject: RE: Gonna larn me the fiddle From: Bill D Date: 06 Jan 01 - 11:41 PM I admire anyone who tries to learn fiddle....I admire even more those who stop when they realize they don't have the knack....I hope you are one of the ones who just keep getting better |
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Subject: RE: Gonna larn me the fiddle From: Mark Clark Date: 07 Jan 01 - 01:06 AM WD, Sometimes makers working in master shops will take the time to teach you how to recognize a good fiddle. Maybe a local collector or dealer will do the same. Get all the information you can find. One reason to educate yourself is that a fiddle that is poorly set up will not be offering it's best sound for your evaluation. The sound post may be missing or positioned slightly off of its "sweet spot," the bridge may be poorly made and fitted to to the top, the strings may be old and rusty, in short, any number of normal maintenance problems may exist that can keep a good fiddle from attracting a buyer. If you have learned some evaluation techniques that don't depend on hearing the instrument, you might be able to identify some fiddles you'd like to take on a trial basis. Then, assuming you know someone who will perform the needed adjustments, you can play it at home when it's properly set up. Of course these things take time. The quickest method is to visit a local violin dealer (generally not a standard music store) and buy something they recommend. That will be much more expensive but will cut your time and risk. - Mark |
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Subject: RE: Gonna larn me the fiddle From: Marion Date: 07 Jan 01 - 08:44 PM I would also strongly suggest buying a shoulder rest (I don't mean the chin rest that comes attached to the top of the fiddle, but rather a bar that you clamp to the bottom and take on and off each time). A shoulder rest makes it much easier to hold the fiddle with your chin, which in turn makes it easier to use your left hand. Here's one way to tell the difference between an honest student violin and a cheap crappy one: take a look at the perfling (the two black lines that go around the edge of the body. There's supposed to be a separate strip of wood inlaid between the black lines. The really cheap Chinese fiddles have the black lines just painted on and you can see that the grain of the top continues through them. My question is: how do you identify a decent bow? Are there specific physical characteristics I should keep an eye out for? I can't tell the difference yet between one bow and another. Marion |
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Subject: RE: Gonna larn me the fiddle From: Stewart Date: 07 Jan 01 - 11:06 PM Marion, regarding bows - I bought a new bow recently. Went to a fiddle shop and told the owner what price range I was interested in. He gave me a couple dozen bows (above and below my price, but with no prices indicated) and I went to a spare room and tried them all out (including my own bow). I then narrowed it down to a half-dozen I liked, went back and tried them again and narrowed it down to two which I took home for a week. Bows are highly matters of individual preference. It's best to look at them first without any indication of price - if a less expensive one sounds and handles better for you, that's fine. The sky is the limit on price and quality is not always related to price. On the other hand, a good bow makes a tremendous difference, and some people say you should pay as much for your bow as for your violin. Cheers, S. in Seattle |
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Subject: RE: Gonna larn me the fiddle From: Pelrad Date: 07 Jan 01 - 11:27 PM This has been said in other threads and I'll be the one to say it in this one...Be very careful buying a fiddle on ebay. You won't have a clue what it sounds like until you get it home. Check things out locally first. That said, I bought a fiddle on ebay nearly a year ago. It was a very interesting one, with strange measurements. But it looked good, the price was right, and I liked the tone of the guy selling it. My heart sank when I took it out of its case, rose again when I played it, and sank to amazing depths when I took it to a local guy who repairs and rents out violins. His exact reaction was, "someone made this instrument by looking at pictures of violins." He then poo-pooed my precious vernacular fiddle for having everything wrong with it. I don't care, though; it sounds beautiful when played. The one thing he was right about: the neck is too heavy and is difficult for a female beginner because it throws off the balance so much. That's okay too, because I don't get a chance to play with it very often. Best of luck in your search and your new obsession. If it isn't an obsession now it soon will be! |
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Subject: RE: Gonna larn me the fiddle From: Mark Clark Date: 07 Jan 01 - 11:47 PM Good point on the purfling, Marion. Not only should the purfling be an actual wooden sandwich inlaid around the edge of the top, one can also look to see how fine a point is made where the pieces meet. A crisp delicate point where two purfling strips meet is a detail often reserved for the best instruments. In general, WD will want a carved solid spruce top with a significant arch to it. The sides and back are traditionally made from flamed maple so the sides should have noticable stripes running across them, front to back. The back wll have the stripes (flames) running across it. If one taps lightly on the belly (top) with a knuckle, one shouldn't hear any rattles that might indicate loose glue joints. The neck should be straight. Sight down the line made where the fingerboard is glued to the neck. That glue line should be straight. If you can find a fiddle that was last owned by an actual fiddler---as opposed to a violinist---you'll be ahead of the game because it should already be set up for your use. If the instrument has been used primarily by classically trained players the arc of the bridge will be too severe for fiddling and you'll need to find someone who can "make" a proper one. On his Folkways instruction record, Tracy Schwarz claimed that a fiddle should have a one-piece back. He said the two-piece back was the mark of a toneless instrument. I'm not smart enough to second guess Tracy Schwarz but I've talked with violin makers who wouldn't dream of making a fiddle with a one piece back. They seem to regard the book matching of grain on the back to be an important mark of quality. As for bows, again the best test is your ear. Have a good fiddle with you that you know the sound of---this may be a friend and his or her fiddle---and play or listen to that fiddle being played with each bow. On top of that, a bow should be made of wood and finely shaped. It should be both light and stiff, a difficult combination to find. The frog should be in good shape and properly fit to the stick. It should have a full complement of genuine horse hair with the proper amount of rosin. The stick should have no warpage, side to side and should be long enough to allow the bowing arm to be fully extend while playing. A good bow will have a grip fashioned from a leather wrap and silver wire windings. Also, take a very careful look at the tip of the bow to make sure it hasn't been broken off along the line of the grain and glued back together. Such a bow is worthless but some dealers will throw them in with a fiddle so it looks to the buyer as though a bow is being included. In most cases, any bow being included "free" with the sale of a fiddle is going to be of questionable value. If the bow had any value, the dealer would be offering it as a separate item with its own price tag. - Mark |
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Subject: RE: Gonna larn me the fiddle From: Kim C Date: 08 Jan 01 - 12:58 PM I have a cheap Romanian made fiddle of unknown age but I have to tell you that it sounds really good. Even a less-than-stellarly-made instrument can sound good with the right setup, strings, and bow. I would guard against spending a lot of money until you know you really want to stick with it---- I started out with a rental, then Mister traded his electric bass for the fiddle I have now. I started out on my own and did fair but my teacher has been indispensable in showing me the finer points of fiddling. I have also learned some technical violin stuff that's been very helpful to me as well. Good luck and have fun! :) |
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Subject: RE: Gonna larn me the fiddle From: Mark Clark Date: 09 Jan 01 - 09:05 AM |
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Subject: RE: Gonna larn me the fiddle From: Ruthie A Date: 09 Jan 01 - 11:08 AM The most important thing I would say to anybody buying and old (antique) fiddle or bow is that the price shouldn't influence your opinion of the instrument. I've just got a new bow for £100, even though I was prepared to pay up to £700. I played with twenty bows worth from £60 to £900, but I made sure I wasn't aware of the prices until I'd made up my mind - I knew that I would otherwise have thought more highly of the more expensive bows. I ended up going for the second cheapest bow because it played and handled best for me. Just a word of advice! Ruthie. |
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Subject: RE: Gonna larn me the fiddle From: GUEST,Russ Date: 09 Jan 01 - 12:42 PM Lots of excellent advice here. Two words: Take lessons. If you try to teach yourself you'll end up with a catalog of bad habits and probably some serious ergonomic issues. If you are interested in old time fiddle, a week at Augusta (http://www.augustaheritage.com/) or Swannanoa (http://www.swangathering.org/index.html) is a great way to begin. The Maestronet Fingerboard forum (http://fingerboard.maestronet.com)has had a number of good threads dealing with entry-level violins and bows. Most of the participants appear to be violinists, but there's a fair salting of fiddlers too. |
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Subject: RE: Gonna larn me the fiddle From: John Hardly Date: 09 Jan 01 - 02:20 PM Hey Stewart! You never told us the price range (high or low) of the bow upon which you settled after your "blind" test. Save us from the cliff-hanger! JH |
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Subject: RE: Gonna larn me the fiddle From: Stewart Date: 09 Jan 01 - 03:12 PM Hi John, I paid $325 for the bow. That was about what I had in mind to pay. I'm not sure what the price range was on all the bows I tested, since they had no price on them, but I'm sure there were some much more expensive and some less. The other one I took home to test was $250, but I don't think price had any thing to do with my choice. I think the "blind test" is the best way to choose. And I'm happy with my choice. S. in Seattle |
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Subject: RE: Gonna larn me the fiddle From: John Hardly Date: 09 Jan 01 - 07:33 PM thanks for the answer! |
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Subject: RE: Gonna larn me the fiddle From: Marion Date: 02 Feb 01 - 07:30 PM Re: "The back wll have the stripes (flames) running across it." On the back of my fiddle (Czechoslovakian student violin) the grain runs lengthwise, not sideways. Is that bad? Marion |
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Subject: RE: Gonna larn me the fiddle From: Mark Clark Date: 03 Feb 01 - 04:07 PM No, the grain of the wood always runs the length of the instrument. It's just that many (not all) makers use what is called "curly" or "flamed" maple for the backs. The "flames" are the result of figure in the grain and are visible as pronounced stripes running at right angles to the grain. The sides are usually made of this wood as well and you should be able to see the figure running across the width of the sides from back to front. - Mark |
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Subject: RE: Gonna larn me the fiddle From: GUEST Date: 31 May 03 - 12:36 AM That link is outdated. The current one to The Fiddler's Almanac is: http://home.tiac.net/~cfiddle/fidalm.html |
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Subject: RE: Gonna larn me the fiddle From: GUEST,sorefingers Date: 31 May 03 - 01:03 PM Best of luck; instead of a Teacher - can be expensive - buy and use a cheapo metronome do the 'bowing' exercises in Suzuki Bk 1. That should alert you to beginners 'craze'-or in plain language insanity -. The instrument and Bow should not be that big of a problem since with good Bow technique few of them sound bad, least I have never found one that bad I would not use if I had no choice. Lesson one; expensive Bow doth not a Fiddler make. Often folks hear one thing in their heads, play it, but the audience hear something else. Lesson two; learn one tune properly at a time, don't be playing the entire book every time you open it. Slow down! Hanging around Classical Students is not a good idea; they will try to correct you, and if you've any talent at all they tend to break your stuff so it works wrong. Lesson three; when not in use lock your fiddle case. Putting any Rosin on the Bowhair may be a bad idea for the first ten years. You might give it one lick once every year. Lesson four; it ain't the Bow stupid - it's the MISbowing that is making it sound like a cat trying to scratch its way out of a tin box. |
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