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Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?

Lin in Kansas 06 Jan 01 - 03:35 AM
bill\sables 06 Jan 01 - 06:07 AM
Bernard 06 Jan 01 - 08:41 AM
Lin in Kansas 06 Jan 01 - 10:52 AM
Bernard 06 Jan 01 - 11:50 AM
Musicman 06 Jan 01 - 12:05 PM
GUEST,Mark. West Sussex. UK 06 Jan 01 - 03:14 PM
GUEST,Liz 12 Jun 07 - 11:09 PM
JWB 12 Jun 07 - 11:56 PM
GUEST,Graham Bradshaw 13 Jun 07 - 04:34 AM
GUEST,Graham Bradshaw 13 Jun 07 - 04:36 AM
concertina ceol 13 Jun 07 - 04:47 AM
treewind 13 Jun 07 - 05:00 AM
AllisonA(Animaterra) 13 Jun 07 - 06:30 AM
TheSnail 13 Jun 07 - 06:51 AM
GUEST,kenny 13 Jun 07 - 06:59 AM
Tradsinger 13 Jun 07 - 07:24 AM
The Sandman 13 Jun 07 - 07:42 AM
Bernard 13 Jun 07 - 09:05 AM
EBarnacle 13 Jun 07 - 09:12 AM
Bernard 13 Jun 07 - 09:16 AM
Charley Noble 13 Jun 07 - 09:46 AM
Crane Driver 13 Jun 07 - 10:05 AM
The Sandman 13 Jun 07 - 10:09 AM
Lin in Kansas 13 Jun 07 - 11:08 AM
Alan Day 13 Jun 07 - 12:41 PM
Fidjit 13 Jun 07 - 02:07 PM
Alan Day 13 Jun 07 - 06:16 PM
The Sandman 13 Jun 07 - 06:29 PM
Tootler 13 Jun 07 - 06:47 PM
JWB 13 Jun 07 - 10:43 PM
The Sandman 14 Jun 07 - 05:47 AM
Tootler 14 Jun 07 - 07:25 AM
Alan Day 14 Jun 07 - 08:53 AM
GUEST,Brian Peters 14 Jun 07 - 09:47 AM
Greg B 14 Jun 07 - 03:11 PM
Tootler 14 Jun 07 - 07:05 PM
The Sandman 15 Jun 07 - 05:33 AM
GUEST,Ralphie 15 Jun 07 - 07:57 AM
Alan Day 15 Jun 07 - 08:35 AM
GUEST,martin ellison 15 Jun 07 - 08:50 AM
The Borchester Echo 15 Jun 07 - 09:08 AM
GUEST,martin ellison 15 Jun 07 - 09:20 AM
Greg B 15 Jun 07 - 02:17 PM
Surreysinger 15 Jun 07 - 02:27 PM
Surreysinger 15 Jun 07 - 02:30 PM
GUEST,Ralphie 16 Jun 07 - 02:18 AM
The Sandman 16 Jun 07 - 06:10 AM
TheSnail 16 Jun 07 - 06:24 AM
The Sandman 16 Jun 07 - 07:15 AM
treewind 16 Jun 07 - 09:43 AM
The Sandman 16 Jun 07 - 01:07 PM
Alan Day 16 Jun 07 - 02:12 PM
GUEST,J 16 Jun 07 - 08:50 PM
GUEST,JWB 16 Jun 07 - 08:51 PM
Rowan 17 Jun 07 - 06:52 PM
The Sandman 17 Jun 07 - 07:42 PM
GUEST,Ralphie 18 Jun 07 - 05:34 AM
The Sandman 18 Jun 07 - 12:41 PM
Bernard 18 Jun 07 - 03:42 PM
Rowan 18 Jun 07 - 07:18 PM
GUEST 20 Aug 07 - 01:32 PM
curmudgeon 20 Aug 07 - 01:55 PM
The Sandman 20 Aug 07 - 01:56 PM
GUEST,Mjolnir 14 Sep 17 - 02:49 PM
Dave the Gnome 14 Sep 17 - 03:39 PM
The Sandman 14 Sep 17 - 04:11 PM
Black belt caterpillar wrestler 15 Sep 17 - 03:38 AM
Dave the Gnome 15 Sep 17 - 04:19 AM
GUEST,Mjolnir 15 Sep 17 - 01:19 PM
The Sandman 15 Sep 17 - 01:35 PM
Guran 16 Sep 17 - 01:20 PM
The Sandman 17 Sep 17 - 02:31 PM
Howard Jones 18 Sep 17 - 03:47 AM
Guran 18 Sep 17 - 06:56 AM
Brian Peters 18 Sep 17 - 08:32 AM
Guran 18 Sep 17 - 09:32 AM
Brian Peters 18 Sep 17 - 09:50 AM
Guran 19 Sep 17 - 07:15 AM
The Sandman 19 Sep 17 - 08:13 AM
Brian Peters 20 Sep 17 - 03:23 PM
GUEST 21 Sep 17 - 05:25 AM
The Sandman 22 Sep 17 - 02:32 AM
Guran 22 Sep 17 - 03:59 AM
Guran 22 Sep 17 - 11:52 AM
Brian Peters 22 Sep 17 - 01:49 PM
Richard Mellish 22 Sep 17 - 06:06 PM
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The Sandman 25 Sep 17 - 08:07 AM
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Subject: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: Lin in Kansas
Date: 06 Jan 01 - 03:35 AM

I've recently become fascinated with concertinas and am considering buying one and learning to play. I've examined a 30-button Anglo and heard it played, but I've never seen an English concertina.

From what I've read, it seems to me the English would be easier for an ex-piano player to learn, since the buttons are arranged more like a keyboard than the Anglo's are, and you're only dealing with a single note on both push and pull, rather than a separate note for each like the Anglo.

I've also heard that the Anglo is used more for Celtic music, which I likely would not play a lot of--I love to listen to Irish, but would rather play/sing old-time, country, or bluegrass. And the English is supposed to be a better instrument for accompaniment.

I'm not planning to buy a vintage or antique instrument, and I don't want to spend very much money until I find out if I really like and want to learn it.

Any comments or opinions about which might be my best bet? I'd appreciate your expertise on this!

Lin


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: bill\sables
Date: 06 Jan 01 - 06:07 AM

Hi Lin, it is an old argument you have got yourself into Anglo players all say Anglo is best and English players say English is best. There will never be an answer, you have to see what suits you best. The Anglo notes run up the row on the left hand and down the row on the right hand with usually only two keys C/G it is true that the same button plays two notes depending on wether you pull or push in the same way as a harmonica plays two notes with a blow or suck. The English can be played in any key but the notes are placed on alternate sides of the instrument eg. lefthand would play c,e,g,b, etc while the right hand would play d, f, a, etc so it is not as straight foreward as a piano. I'm sure other players in this forum know more about the instrument than me so you are sure to get a lot of advice. BTW I play Anglo.
Cheers Bill


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: Bernard
Date: 06 Jan 01 - 08:41 AM

We've had a thread about this recently: blicky

As a player of both, my advice is the Anglo is better for dance music - being 'similar' to the melodeon, and the English is better for accompaniment.

Having said that, I use my Anglo for accompaniment and my English for dance music if I feel like it!!

Confused? You will be!


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: Lin in Kansas
Date: 06 Jan 01 - 10:52 AM

Bernard, thank you very much for the blue clicky thing. That'll teach me to do a Forum search first!

Like Mary on the other thread, I'm leaning toward the English, even at a higher price than the Anglo--mostly because I *think* I understand the fingering system better. Unfortunately, I can't follow the advice to try them both before I buy, because I've not been able to find anywhere local that has concertinas, and the only one I've seen/heard played (and bless his heart, been allowed to hold and play with) is a 30-button Anglo.

Ah well--ya throws the dice and ya takes yer chances, I reckon! Thanks Bill and Bernard, and the posters on the other concertina thread, too. Much appreciated.

Lin


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: Bernard
Date: 06 Jan 01 - 11:50 AM

I would agree, there - the Anglo is better suited to 'ear' players (at a beginner's level), whereas the English requires a little more discipline.

The English was designed to be a music reader's instrument, as I posted on the other thread - Charles Wheatstone specifically put the 'lines' on the left and the 'spaces' on the right.

I don't wish to spark off a debate by suggesting one is 'better' than the other, as that is far from the truth; I'm merely suggesting that an Anglo is 'friendlier' in the early stages, particularly for a 'non musician'.

I've got some MIDI files of fairly easy Morris tunes which work well on an Anglo - G row only! PM me with your email address if you want them.


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: Musicman
Date: 06 Jan 01 - 12:05 PM

you can find some interesting information about english concertina's here and here.

btw, I play english........wheatstone......


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: GUEST,Mark. West Sussex. UK
Date: 06 Jan 01 - 03:14 PM

I am trying to think how to explain this. It is a bit like asking the difference between flatpicking with a plectrum or fingerpicking with a thumb and three fingers. I think you can get a lot more initial enjoyment and success with an English. It is also more relaxed and meditative to play because you can "breath" the bellows in and out like a peaceful yoga exercise. Anglo is more energetic, dangerous and sexy to play. It is a different mind set. You have to do a sort of Celtic Luke Skywalker and "Use the Force". It is a kind of reflex instinct that comes with practice. In England a chain called HOBGOBLIN do a catalogue and international Mail Order www.hobgoblin.com or try Barleycorn Concertinas in Scotland for advice and older models. He does mail order too and will only sell fully serviced and playable machines. The best thing is to find people who play and ask for a quick lesson/try out.


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: GUEST,Liz
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 11:09 PM

What's the latest on the old anglo vs. english concertina thread? I'm fascinated with both!!!.....have gone to many websites listening to CD soundbytes and hope to get to a local taven this thurs. to hear the "real" thing


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: JWB
Date: 12 Jun 07 - 11:56 PM

Liz,

The Anglo and English have a similar timbre -- it's how they're played that makes the difference. At last weekend's Mystic Seaport Sea Music Festival there was a workshop on squeezebox, which featured (among other things):
the Irish style of playing the Anglo
the Irish style of playing the English
the English style of playing the Anglo
the legato style of playing the English

If you put in the time on either instrument, you'll discover that the possibilities approach infinity.

Jerry


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: GUEST,Graham Bradshaw
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 04:34 AM

If you would like to hear some Anglo playing by some of the best players from around the World, living and dead, you could do worse than checking out our Anglo International 3 CD set. Full details here.

We are also currently doing the same with the English Concertina and English International is scheduled for release by end July.

Oh, and incidentally, Duet International is scheduled for early 2008.

More details will appear on this forum as and when.


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: GUEST,Graham Bradshaw
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 04:36 AM

Sorry, that clicky didn't work. Try again Anglo International


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: concertina ceol
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 04:47 AM

oh no not again!

I really wish that english, duet and anglo were not called concertina because they are all so different from each other. In some ways like comparing a mandolin to a violin, tuned the same but played completely differently.

Unfortunately most of the advice above falls into the "Because I wear glasses and they cure my eyesight problem - they will work for you"

Just to clear up some mis information. Although Anglo is arranged in C/G plus accidental rows this means that you can play in any key, certainly you can play in C, G, A minor, E minor, D, D minor, A etc. etc.

I have to run will post later - I don't think either is better though for anything


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: treewind
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 05:00 AM

Harry Scurfield told me he has one song he accompanies on C/G Anglo in B (and I think he meant B major!)
We do one in F minor and I'm about to start work on one in B flat, both also on C/G Anglo.

Anahata


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: AllisonA(Animaterra)
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 06:30 AM

Don't forget to visit Concertina.net!
The forum there is full of helpful, friendly folks.


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: TheSnail
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 06:51 AM

Listen to lots of players. When you think "That's the sound I want to make." get that sort of concertina... then practice for twenty years.


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: GUEST,kenny
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 06:59 AM

Lin - from what you say above, my opinion is that the English would suit you better than the Anglo. "Captain Birdseye" might advise you, if he happens upon this particular thread.


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: Tradsinger
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 07:24 AM

Here's how I see it:

Anglo:
Advantages - easier to learn, especially if you have limited musical knowledge. 'Punchy' sound, good for dancing. Good for morris, barn dance music
Disadvantages - limited to 2 major keys (G/D or G/C). Older ones can be in old pitch. Avoid cheap brightly coloured ones - they are poor quality.

English:
Advantages - fully chromatic so not limited in keys. Better suited to someone with good musical knowledge. Suitable for song accompaniment, including more complex stuff.
Disadvantages - smoother, less rhythmic sound. Not generally so good to to dance to, unless backed up by other instruments.

So it depends what you want to play. Brass reeds give a soft sound and steel reeds a brighter sound. Lachenal, Wheatstone and Crabb are good makes (there are others) but some old instruments can be in poor condition.

Good luck

Tradsinger


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 07:42 AM

I found The English easier.I use the English to accompany songs and play tunes[Irish and Northumbrian],In my opinion the English suits northumbrian tunes very well,the jumps of a fifth, with same finger give a similiar effect [staccato]to NORTHUMBRIAN PIPES.I think the English is excellent for playing slow airs, hornpipes and jigs work quite well,and Sliabh Luchra music[Polkas,Slides],and OCarolan tunes,seem suited to it.
The English is not so easy for playing ,morris tunes,the in /out of the anglo is naturally more rhythmical[this is the main problem with the English],the ENGLISH player has to learn finger attack and wrist/bellows attack to acheive good dance rhythm,
but the ANGLO PLAYER has a problem when he wishes to smooth passages out,he has to start cross rowing.[you really need a 2 half c/g or three row to do this,ON TWO ROW G D s you can acheive a lot of crossrowing, to get MORE legato effect in G an D.
Quite a lot of Fiddle ornamentation,is easily transferred to the English[fiddle rolls,cuts,grace notes]
I have for sale on my website Boxing Clever
which features Harry Scurfield john Kirkpatrick[ANGLO]TimLaycock[duet]DickMiles[English and Duet]http://www.dickmiles.com


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: Bernard
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 09:05 AM

Dick Miles? Who is he?! ;o)


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: EBarnacle
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 09:12 AM

I have found English works well when accomanying Tango, R&B, West Indian rhythms [including chanteys] and other 'odd' melodic styles. It is [IMNSHO] more flexible when someone comes in with odd keys, even if it is a pain to play all those sharps in E.


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: Bernard
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 09:16 AM

Seriously, though, I have 'Boxing Clever', Anglo International' and also Brian Peters' 'Anglophilia' (I get a mention in the 'sleeve notes'!).


As for the glasses and eyesight allegory, how else is one supposed to offer advice other than by saying 'this is what works for me'? You might just as well slate every other 'advice wanted' thread in the same way!

People usually make up their own minds about things in spite of advice, rather than because of it!!


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: Charley Noble
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 09:46 AM

I agree that Anglo concertinas usually appear in C/G or G/D configurations but can be special ordered in other configurations if that's what you need. I have a Morse Anglo that's configured F/C as well as a G/D one.

It is theoretically possible to play songs in other keys with the standard configuration concertinas but it does require learning new fingerwork patterns, some of which are arkward.

Cheerily,
Charley Noble


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: Crane Driver
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 10:05 AM

One of the things I like about playing Duet concertina is when someone comes up and says "Is that an English or an Anglo?" I can answer "No!"

You'll hear many people (mainly those who've never played one) saying that duets are very complicated to play. I was lucky enough to find a duet as my first concertina, many years ago - I've tried English and Anglo since, but I wouldn't trade for either of them. I've got a fully-chromatic box (true, some keys are easier to play in than others, but that's true of most "chromatic" instruments) with the same note on push and pull, but with a complete tenor keyboard in the right hand and a bass keyboard in the left. I mainly play song accompanyments but also play in a ceilidh band and have played for Morris and Clog dancing, and even for Rapper sword dances, which need fast, Irish-style jigs. I find I can get either the 'bounce' for dance music or the smoother style for slower music as required.

You can hear a few clips of me and my duet (AND my wife!) on our website at Crane Drivin' Music.   Go to 'Recordings', then either of the CD pages, and click on the 'MP3 Jukebox'.

Andrew


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 10:09 AM

The English concertina, is supposed to be designed the way that it is,to facilitate playing at speed.It is an instrument for people with good coordination between left and right hands.
At the end of the day all three systems are great.
Lin you must look into the duet as well,as a an ex piano player[Ihope I have this right[]Bass on the left treble on the right,might suit you,there are four different arrangements of duet,Crane,Hayden,Jeffries,Mccann.DickMiles


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: Lin in Kansas
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 11:08 AM

Hi all--

Interesting to see this old thread again. Lots of good advice here!

I did buy an English, and have been very glad I did. One of the reasons I like it is because I actually understand the notes and layout--it "makes sense" to me.

One of the things I don't like about stringed instruments (and I've attempted to learn several) is that they DO NOT make sense to me. I don't know if I just can't wrap my head around how the fretboard works, or if I'm just determined that I can't, but either way I get too frustrated with it to learn anything. Even though my Dearling and his son are both excellent players and good teachers. And please don't bother with instructions, I don't want any!

Back to concertinas: I got mine from the Buttonbox, here in the states. It's a Stagi, one of the less-expensive brands, but I am very happy with it.

Thanks again for all the good words. Captain, I'll have to see if I can find a duet around here anywhere and take a look at it. Squeezeboxes are a lot rarer in this part of the US than they are in other parts of the world...

Lin


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: Alan Day
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 12:41 PM

In general your disadvantages with the English Concertina "Tradsinger" is correct, but a few players on English International (Due shortly) may change your views.
Al


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: Fidjit
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 02:07 PM

Looking forward to it Alan.

I play anglo 'cos that's what I've got.
For singing and morris style tunes. Great.
I can do a fair enough version of, "The Entertainer" too.
I don't read.
For Mozart and other stuff. Well, get the other one.

Chas


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: Alan Day
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 06:16 PM

I must say that singing with the Anglo is difficult for me and if I wanted a concertina to sing with I would definitely choose the English or Duet.It took me some time to cure myself of breathing in and out with the bellows as many do with the Anglo.The lovely thing about the Anglo is the bounce that you can get with the music on the instrument, which of course lends itself to Morris, Country and Contra Dancing,French and Breton music.The smoothing out of playing is possible with the Anglo and with a bit (a lot) of work it can be achieved,just in the same way that some English and Duet players can create a bounce in their playing.
The thing is we move on our music tastes change and we set ourself new types of music to play and new targets.If you could look into the future some of us would have chosen different instruments,this is why this question becomes so difficult ,but is also how the instrument can progress as we all hear the results of someones work into new dimensions of the instrument we did not realise existed.
Al


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: The Sandman
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 06:29 PM

I suggest for those English concertina players interested in jazz ,looking at how the chromatic harmonica has been used in jazz.
Dick Miles[philistine]


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: Tootler
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 06:47 PM

I bought an Anglo because, after trying both English and Anglo, for me The Anglo "felt right". It maybe something to do with the fact that I have had harmonicas on and off over the years, even if I never really took playing them very far, so I was comfortable with the "suck blow" approach to playing. In fact in some ways I approach playing the Anglo rather like playing the harmonica.

There is a lot of nonsense talked about what the English and Anglo are good for. You only have to hear Alistair Anderson playing for dancing to realise how good the English can be for dancing. As others have said, listen to Anglo International to get some idea of just how versatile the Anglo can be. Of course like any musical instrument, it takes time and effort to become proficient. Brian Peters' "Anglophilia" is also worth a listen. If you want to hear excellent song accompaniment, get hold of some Magpie Lane CD's. Their Anglo player, Andy Summers is superb.

A 30 button anglo is perfectly capable of playing in any key, though the home keys are usually significantly easier than any others. I was trying out a tune in Eb the other day and it was perfectly possible, though there were a number of awkward finger movements and it will take time and a lot of practice to get the hang of it.

At the end of the day, which concertina you choose is what feels right for you, but if you are within reasonable distance of a shop that sells them, go along and try them. It is the only way you will find it which suits you.


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: JWB
Date: 13 Jun 07 - 10:43 PM

Tootler, you're right: the 30 button Anglo can play in just about any key. It's taken me 25+ years, but I now accompany songs on my 33-button C/G Jones in the keys of C, G, D, F, Em, Am, Dm, Cm, and Bb. Just takes a while to figure out the arrangements on those less common keys.


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 05:47 AM

yes, the 30 key anglo,is very versatile.I would suggest all beginners make a diagram of their fingerboard for both in and out,and you will see how many options there are.,a major becomes obvious too,although I understand the Lachenal /Wheatstone accidental arrangement makes it easier than the Jeffries.
The english becomes interesting in E flat and Aflat,because of the duplication,of these notes on either side of the box.DickMiles[philistine]


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: Tootler
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 07:25 AM

JWB, You cheer me up no end. <g> In 25 years time I will be 87! So I clearly have a lifetime of learning ahead of me :-)

On a more serious note, my accompanying myself is still at the stage of doubling the melody, though with some tunes I do put in some chords at critical places. As I said earlier I tend to approach the Anglo as bellows blown harmonica rather than go for the RH melody, LH chords approach. I treat it as a melody instrument, much as the Irish do - in fact I like the Irish (melody) style of playing Anglo. On Anglo International, there is a set of Northumbrian tunes played melody style which for me goes to show that melody style playing does not have to be confined to Irish tunes.

Cap'n Birdseye,

What you suggest is just what I did. Coming from a wind instrument background - I have been playing recorder for over 30 years - I was used to fingering charts so the first thing I did was make one. I keep one in my concertina box and one permanently on my music stand.

As to the two common arrangements of the accidental row, I don't think there is much to choose between them.There are pros and cons to both. The cheapy Hohner I got first had the accidentals in the Lachenal/Wheatstone layout, but when I bought the Morse I now have it came with the Jeffries Layout. The Jeffries layout does have the advantage of middle octave C# being available on both push and draw which is very handy when playing D and other modes with two sharps.

As a general comment to anyone considering getting an Anglo, do get a 30 button instrument, it does give you a lot more options and it is certainly worth the extra money.


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: Alan Day
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 08:53 AM

The same for me, the Captain is right, after many years of playing by ear I decided to play duet style, which meant a lot of chord work.It is only when you write down your layout do you see what is available to you.If the note or chord you want is in the opposite direction or for the passage of play you run out of air put in a couple of grace notes or ornamention in the opposite direction to give you bellows space.
Al


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: GUEST,Brian Peters
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 09:47 AM

"If you want to hear excellent song accompaniment, get hold of some Magpie Lane CD's. Their Anglo player, Andy Summers is superb."

Er....... isn't Andy Summers that fellow in The Police? If you meant Andy Turner, however, I quite agree.


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: Greg B
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 03:11 PM

Lin, since you're enjoying your Stagi, start saving at once for
something a bit more responsive. Stagis are fine for learning on
but have a penchant for wearing out after a time. For song
accompaniment you might consider one of the Morse instruments
and perhaps a baritone version. Much as I love my Aeola and
my raised-metal end Wheatstone, both are quite loud and range
from bright to downright harsh in tone. That can be an issue
if you're not as powerful a singer as, say, Lou Killen.

And the prices of such vintage things are just insane! I do love my vintage baritone, however. The lower-end vintage instruments can
be much softer and sweeter in tone, but they are also less responsive
and prone to mechanical problems.

The Morse instruments that I've had in my hand are just a bit
less harsh in tone, still quite responsive, and feel very good
to hand. And the price is more than fair.

If you do have a Morse instrument built, ask for the 'Salvation
Army modification' to the very bottom accidental on the right
hand. As I recall, it changes that note to 'F' which extends
the scale down very conveniently. Lou Killen has his set up
that way, and the Aeola which I have that is virtually identical
to his came to me from Colin Dipper (via Lark in the Morning) with
that change. My Wheatstone lacks it, and I miss it. What the
Wheatstone has, and I recommend, are wrist straps. Didn't know
how useful they were until I had them.


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: Tootler
Date: 14 Jun 07 - 07:05 PM

Er....... isn't Andy Summers that fellow in The Police? If you meant Andy Turner, however, I quite agree.

Woops! Senior moment.


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 05:33 AM

GREG B,im not sure I Entirely agree with you.that is very handy for playing in f,but restricts you for, a flat and e flat,I have one box like that,and deliberately have another one without the F.


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 07:57 AM

I'm with the "Driver Of Cranes" on this one.
What is the point of the English system (Swapping ends all the time, etc) or the Anglo (Just a glorified mouth organ), when you have the chance available to own the KING of concertinas.....THE DUET!!!

Mine perchance is the KING of KINGS, the McCann. But the other systems do OK. (It's a joke, alright?!)

It's so natural to play.
Apart from its obvious connections with Keyboards (one hand playing Melody, The other playing Bass) Just think about woodwind players...each hand takes half the work, On a clarinet, the more keys you press down the lower the note..Each hand doing its bit.
Yes, I know it's a bit simplistic, but its true nonetheless!!

The two reasons why people don't take up the Duet.
1. There aren't many of them about (particularly the Crane system)
And secondly you have to practice damn hard.

An analogy.
Anglo......McDonalds, instant gratification, but not amounting to much (you need to have a salad with it!)

English.....Burger King. Promises much, delivers little!

Duet..... Gourmet repast at the Ivy, costs a lot, but, boy when its good it's very very good!

I'm assuming that all you gentle readers realise that my tongue is firmly in my cheek!!!
Good luck to the original posters quest, but please give the poor old Duet a chance. It's stood by me for over 30 years now. A true and loyal friend, when others have fallen by the wayside.
Good luck to all aspirants.

Ralphie

PS....Don't go near the Jeffries Duet....An instrument designed by committee if ever there was one!


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: Alan Day
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 08:35 AM

Is the Duet with chips ?
Al


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: GUEST,martin ellison
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 08:50 AM

Ralphie add this to your list:

Melodeon.......Pate de fois gras and black truffle on Mother's Pride with ketchup, hold the pickle. Tea, two sugars and a Wagon Wheel for afters.

Work that one out - I can't.


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: The Borchester Echo
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 09:08 AM

I could never understand the mindset of diatonic addicts and put it down to a surfeit of E numbers and sugar.

But I now find a player, Mary Baker, of the chromatically logical English to have been behind excess sugar production. And she bought her Wheatstone for 12 guineas.

Life is unfair.


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: GUEST,martin ellison
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 09:20 AM

Presumably she could make sweet music with someone and stick to the beet.

I'll get caned for that.


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: Greg B
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 02:17 PM

Captain Birdseye, of course it's a trade-off. It's a 'funny
note' and not exactly in the system, and I'd much prefer
a 56-key that went down the extra few notes rather than the
usual one which goes up so high that it calls only the dogs,
to the low F. For song accompaniment in usual keys, though
it's useful. Louis Killen swears by it.


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: Surreysinger
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 02:27 PM

Martin - rather syrupy concepts there. As to your food analogy - yup, if I was in the market for a non-stringed instrument at the moment you might well have sold the idea of a melodeon to me but, though I could go with the attraction of the Wagon Wheel and the cups of tea to follow, the use of the ketchup rather lost the vote for me there... so far Ralphie's argument is more persuasive, although I have to say that I'd always understood that in recent years meals at the Ivy were rather over-rated!! Just waiting now to see if a Jeffries player leaps into the fray to defend his blatant attack ... it's interesting sitting on the side-lines - i don't play a concertina, so what would I know???

Loved the link, BTW Diane, but mind you 12 guineas then would be worth a hell of a lot more now... might check that out and come back on it.


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: Surreysinger
Date: 15 Jun 07 - 02:30 PM

Just checked that out and the equivalent price in 2006 money would have been £803.44 !!


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 02:18 AM

I wish I hadn't started the food analogy now, this is just getting silly!
Greg B.
Dick M will no doubt correct me, but there is an English in a lower range (not sure precisely what, no doubt someone will enlighten me) called the Tenor-Treble.
I don't know how many were made, but I would suggest that the reason you don't see many coming up for sale is that they are just too damned useful! (Or the owners have a dog that they don't want to offend!)
Interesting price comparison SS
I don't think that you would get a new Wheatstone made by Mr Dickinson for that price. I can see him going apoplectic at the very thought!!!


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 06:10 AM

yes,I have a 56 key tenor treble,although I dont use it quite as much as my 48 key,It being a little heavier on the wrists.its very useful for recording.
I hardly ever go above high c sharp[topstring on fiddle],I find the notes very squeaky,To my mind the idea of building a box, that has the range of the tenor treble without the notes above high d[on top string, fiddle]is quite a good one.Dick Miles.


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: TheSnail
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 06:24 AM

English concertinas come in various sizes. Treble corresponds to violin. I have a tenor-treble, equivalent to viola. There is the baritone, an octave below the treble with no stringed equivalent, and bass which I think covers the first position cello range.

Like Dick, I don't find much use for the top octave. I think Andy Norman, currently of Sussex soon to be of Shropshire, has been known to make a 36 key tenor.


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 07:15 AM

and possibly, Anglo players, may agree, about some of their very high notes being replaced with something more useful.


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: treewind
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 09:43 AM

"It is theoretically possible to play songs in other keys with the standard configuration concertinas but it does require learning new fingerwork patterns, some of which are awkward."

Funny how often I see or hear that said about diatonic/chromatic instruments.
It's like saying a piano keyboard is best for playing in C major, and it starts getting tricky in other keys.
Exactly the same is true of almost every instrument ever invented. The only difference is that to play classical music you have to learn all of those finger patterns, while in folk music you can get away with not bothering.

I'm quite lazy with the Anglo. Sometimes I think I ought to sit down with it and practice playing major and minor scales in all keys, going up a semitone at a time, like I used to (and still do sometimes) with the cello. I know I'd get quite good at it if I did it enough, that it would take months to perfect, and that I'd be able to play some amazing stuff eventually.

The only thing that the Anglo can really do better in C, F and G is use low notes as the basis for chords - there are big gaps in the scale at the low end. In the middle range, playing in remote keys is a simple matter of practice!

Similar with my Saltarelle 2½ row melodeon - fully chromatic over three octaves on the RHS, but let down on the chords and basses.
If I could be bothered to learn the fingerings for playing in other keys... some people have.

Anahata


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: The Sandman
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 01:07 PM

Hello Anahata,the english is very good for playing octaves,octaves the english is also very good for playing chords,and they can be played very rythmically.
what is difficult [onthe english]is playing melody and accompaniment.
the secret lies in putting light chords on the offbeat.


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: Alan Day
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 02:12 PM

What I enjoyed with Brian Peters "Anglophillia" was his use of the higher notes on the right hand in his chord formations and I know this is something he lists as one of his interests.Chording on the right hand as well as the left is not practiced by many Anglo players and good on Brian to show us how it should be done.
Al


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: GUEST,J
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 08:50 PM

Those high notes on the right hand side of my Anglo are just waiting for me to expand my skill enough to make use of them. I recently played a trio set with Bob Webb on McCann Duet, and Bob Walser on Anglo, and I doubled the melody an octave up in the key of G. I had a chance to practice, which allowed me to find the scale from G above middle C on up beyond the next G. Not particularly pleasant when playing solo, but it was fun as part of the trio.

Being reminded that those notes are there is a stimulus to figuring out how to use them in arrangements. Honestly, I believe I could work on the Anglo for another quarter century and still not explore all the possibilities. While I'm tempted to buy a concertina in other keys, there seems to be so much to learn about my C/G that it's hard to justify.

Jerry


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: GUEST,JWB
Date: 16 Jun 07 - 08:51 PM

Sorry, hit the enter key too soon on that last post. Must be anonymous...


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: Rowan
Date: 17 Jun 07 - 06:52 PM

Models of the English concertina were made over the whole range of orchestral pitch, although only the original trebles were intented for orchestration as equivalent to voilins. Beyond the bass there is the contrabass, the lowest note of which is 26Hz; the human ear can't distinguish anything lower as a separate pitch. The reed for this note, BTW, is about 4" long, 3/4" wide and has a brass 'slab' rivetted to its free end to slow it down.

While on orchestrations, Percy Grainger wrote several peices with concertina parts and used Duets for them. From memory there are a couple in the Percy Grainger Museum and one of them is a 56 key Wheatstone. Also from memory, the parts required huge chords rather than dexterity in melody lines.

Another BTW; the McCann (Maccann.....etc) is, as far as I know, the only concer you an pick up upside down and still play successfully.

Cheers, Rowan


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Jun 07 - 07:42 PM

the Hayden Duet,can be played successfully in the same manner.


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: GUEST,Ralphie
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 05:34 AM

Mmmm.
Playing McCann upside down.
Have just tried it.....Oo-Er missus!!!!
Very weird!!
Just as an aside, and to annoy any dogs reading this. When I was working with Nigel Chippendale in "Eric" He had a horrible looking (White Pearloid) 20 Key Anglo, (I think it was C/G) but it was tuned an octave up. Painful to listen to, but, always got a laugh when we played Telstar!!
I wonder what happened to it?
Regards Ralphie


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: The Sandman
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 12:41 PM

yes, but the buttons on the extreme right hand side,of the 30 key anglo,on the accidental row,and on the g row,are very squeaky,and are in my opinion not much use for chordal work .[I am talking about two buttons].


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: Bernard
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 03:42 PM

Hmmm... although they're awkwardly laid out, I find them useful for Morris tunes - Lilliburlero, for example - as I play chords with the tune 'on top'.


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: Rowan
Date: 18 Jun 07 - 07:18 PM

Ah, Ralphie, you've described the very first Anglo I ever played. I first saw it in about 1976 in Canberra and last saw it a year or so later in Melbourne. It had red leather straps, its reeds were accordion reeds and it was C/G. I've always wondered who the maker was.

Cheers, Rowan


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: GUEST
Date: 20 Aug 07 - 01:32 PM

My 48 key Stagi treble concertina was recently stolen from me at Port Authority in NYC and I'm trying to find one to replace it. Unfortunately, as a recent college graduate I really can't afford a new one at around $900. Would anyone on here know of someone looking to sell one, or a place to find used instruments? Thanks in advance for anything.


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: curmudgeon
Date: 20 Aug 07 - 01:55 PM

Guest - Go to   concertina.net and report the theft. Then post your query there. Good luck - Tom


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: The Sandman
Date: 20 Aug 07 - 01:56 PM

try the Button Box.


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: GUEST,Mjolnir
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 02:49 PM

Reviving this thread as a prospective concertina player.

I'm wondering what people would recommend for someone who'd be interested in playing contra dance tunes at some point in the future, as well as the occasional sea song. I've found a few critiques of anglos to the effect that modern dance tunes tend to be keyed to D, which can be a bit of a problem for an instrument tuned to C/G. I'm curious how much of a difficulty that really is, and whether an english or duet would be better suited to the sort of music I'm interested in.

Thanks


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 03:39 PM

Provided it is a 30 key there is no problem playing in D on a C/G Anglo. In fact a lot of Irish music is played in D on a C/G but I am either not that clever or not that way inclined ;-)

DtG


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: The Sandman
Date: 14 Sep 17 - 04:11 PM

yes ,however irish music in d major is often played up the c row, crossing to acciodentl row for c# and g row or other row for f#, but irish can be played using g as home row and polaying in d major just going to accidental row for c#,i believe chris droney does that.
all the systems hve advantages and disadvantages, i found english easiest, but i realise that was because i had played snare drum practising 5 stroke and 7 stroke rolls a lot, so had very good left right coordination


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: Black belt caterpillar wrestler
Date: 15 Sep 17 - 03:38 AM

An Anglo doesn't have to be C/G. I use my G/D for sessions, for all types of music. I prefer the lower notes as well.

Robin


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: Dave the Gnome
Date: 15 Sep 17 - 04:19 AM

I was given a cheap 20 button D/A which makes for interesting playing sometimes :-)

DtG


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: GUEST,Mjolnir
Date: 15 Sep 17 - 01:19 PM

How does playing at speed compare between English and Anglo? I understand that the intent of having consecutive notes on alternate sides of the English was to facilitate rapid play, but what does that amount to in practice? Watching videos on YouTube, it seems as though the things people play on Anglo tend not to have as dense a melody line, but how much of that is a property of the instrument itself, as opposed say to the types of music that people tend to use each instrument for?


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: The Sandman
Date: 15 Sep 17 - 01:35 PM

It is easier to play at a fast speed on the english, but what is the feckin point the music is not about speed its about lilt and pulse and rythym, the anglo can be played faster if more row criossing and less bellows changes are used, but a lot of english players should slow down and change or articulate bellows control more often, the anglo because of bellows reversdals is naturally more rhytmic. for morris dancing it is imo really important for english players not to sludge notes. to articulate bellows by either reversing bellows or pulling bellows ryhtmically in the same direction, for northumbrian music finger attack and staccato can be used to stylistically emulate the northunbrian pipes


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: Guran
Date: 16 Sep 17 - 01:20 PM

Just noticed this thread and of course I cannot control myself from trotting with this hobbyhorse of mine again:

The major difference between anglo and english concerning the option playing energetically and rhythmically is the HANDLE... ( i e the poor stability the english type offers) .It is in principle impossible to get the same bouncy rhythm as in trad morris anglo playing using an english....
UNLESS the handle is modified so that the stability ( the connection between hand and instrument) is enlarged. This can be done by using a steadier thumbstrap,combined with a wrist support, and a suitable wriststrap.. BUT of course this means that the available keyboard range is somewhat reduced. For most folk music however you may get along pretty well with 40 keys ( or even 32) You reach more buttons transversely ( as with the anglo or Jeffries or Hayden duet) than longitudinally ( as with the english)

For speed...selfevidently the english system is the "fastest" ...you use two hands for the same job as one with other systems


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: The Sandman
Date: 17 Sep 17 - 02:31 PM

control is important, Guran, so is self discipline.
hobby horses end up becoming like the pub bore


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: Howard Jones
Date: 18 Sep 17 - 03:47 AM

".It is in principle impossible to get the same bouncy rhythm as in trad morris anglo playing using an english...."

Difficult but not impossible - listen to Dave Townsend playing morris tunes on "Portrait of a Concertina".

"For speed...selfevidently the english system is the "fastest" ...you use two hands for the same job as one with other systems"

The Irish style can be pretty fast, so this isn't self-evident, although as this style also tends to use two hands playing melody on both sides of the instrument there is some affinity with English Concertina. Harmonic styles, on both Anglo and Duet, usually favour slower tunes.

Although all three systems are called 'concertina' and share similar construction, in playing terms they are so different as to be separate instruments. The decision which system to go for is a difficult one, and the best guide is probably the type of music you want to play, and the system used by players you admire and want to emulate.


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: Guran
Date: 18 Sep 17 - 06:56 AM

Howard!

It IS impossible for simple anatomic reasons! Instead of bringing up *fairly* successful examples ( like Dave T. ) the "principle" in it is this: Whoever you are you will be able to transmit force/energy from the arms to the instrument more efficiently with the handstrap connection than with the thumbstrap/fingerplate concept and energetic bellows reversals ( necessary for bouncy playing) demands comfortable and efficient "pumping".

Speed...picking single note playing of scales or chromatic runs ( which is the best indicator) of "speed" as such.. you will find nobody able to execute the same speed as with the english using any other of the common concertina systems. You CAN do it - and even faster for some passages - with an accordion though but the cause of that is the option using a "flyng hand" as with the piano. Concerning instrument "speed" in general the two-hand-superiority ca be illustrated by a hammered dulcimer or vibraphone as well.

Concerning choice of instrument I absolutely agree. One funny thing remains as a puzzle for me however - the English ought to be more suitable for the typical "Irish" idiom than the Anglo... but tradition got its own pathways, not necessarily rational ones.


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 18 Sep 17 - 08:32 AM

I suspect the popularity of the anglo in Irish music might have been due to the availability of cheap instruments.

As anglo player myself I feel duty-bound to mention the name Alistair Anderson in connection with bouncy playing. He gave a very interesting workshop years ago in which he explained how the bounciness imparted by bellows reversals could be duplicated on the English by a combination of clipping note lengths and momentary changes in bellows pressure.


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: Guran
Date: 18 Sep 17 - 09:32 AM

Brian, YES...I agree of course concerning the possibility to get ( firstly) the single note rhythmical effect from Anglo-playing by using the English in a similar way. "All" you have to do is reversing the bellows likewise.All the notes are there. There is a number of English-players doing trad "Irish" music this way. BUT it is a lot more demanding doing energetic and loud multi note Morris style Anglo-playing using an English likewise.

AA as an example - from decades of intensive prof practise likely got unusual strength and thus means to get along pretty well ( but I would not be surprised if he begins suffering from arthrosis in his thumb joints by now...). Anyway ...everyone ( AA too...) would be able to do it easier using an Anglo/Duet handstrap with the English rather than the unstable thumbstrap/fingerplate arrangement.

YES...I also believe the "trad Irish Anglo idiom originates simply from availability of "cheap anglo concertinas" which in reality to a great part were "cheap german concertinas" marketed in Ireland.


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 18 Sep 17 - 09:50 AM

the possibility to get ( firstly) the single note rhythmical effect from Anglo-playing by using the English in a similar way. "All" you have to do is reversing the bellows likewise.All the notes are there. There is a number of English-players doing trad "Irish" music this way. BUT it is a lot more demanding doing energetic and loud multi note Morris style Anglo-playing using an English likewise.

What Alistair described in his workshop was not reversing the bellows as per the anglo. His point was that, since on the anglo one button controls two opposed reeds and their associated valves, when you change bellows direction one valve shuts and the corresponding one on the opposite side opens simultaneously, so one reed begins to sound at precisely the same moment its opposite is cut abruptly to nothing. That gives you very precise punctuation. The business of dynamics does not necessarily depend on bellows reversals.

As far as playing morris dance music on an English goes, although it clearly can be done, the kind of accompanying chording easily achieved on an anglo would be very hard to imitate convincingly.

I'll ask Alistair about the health of his thumb joints next time I see him. However, his playing has been extremely dynamic since his earliest recordings, so I don't think it's decades of practice that have enabled him to play like that.


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: Guran
Date: 19 Sep 17 - 07:15 AM

Brian:"What Alistair described in his workshop was not reversing the bellows as per the anglo. His point was that, since on the anglo one button controls two opposed reeds and their associated valves, when you change bellows direction one valve shuts and the corresponding one on the opposite side opens simultaneously, so one reed begins to sound at precisely the same moment its opposite is cut abruptly to nothing. That gives you very precise punctuation. The business of dynamics does not necessarily depend on bellows reversals"

Hmm, technically there is some point in that, but in practise ( You know as an anglo player..) it is only occasionally that you get two consecutive notes of the same button so that initiation/onset of the two notes is strictly "bellows-articulated" - at the moment of reversal as you say. In most activities there is some varying combination of finger-articulation and bellows-articulation. Anglo playing spontaneously stimulates more use of bellows articulation particularly for staccato while English players spontaneously use more finger articultion and many of them have difficulties creating a crisp staccato. AA certainly is one who has learnt to master this all the same. With Anglo on the other hand good legato playing can be a major challenge of course.

Concerning AA:s style he likely had some practise prior to the first recordings... but nevertheless intense English-playing puts a great deal of ( usually unhealthy)unphysiological stress on thumb joints, particularly the second one which may cause wear and inflammatory reactions.This may be counteracted by a proper wrist support combined with a hand/wrist strap so that the load on the thumb is reduced.

With the Anglo on the other hand *adding* a thumb strap may relieve the thumb from crampful muscular strain.
Most concertina players play seated despite the instrument may seem so handy for doing it standing.There are reasons for that....


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: The Sandman
Date: 19 Sep 17 - 08:13 AM

Guran",With Anglo on the other hand good legato playing can be a major challenge of course" not if you play in the key of b flat, or if you cross rows
more bollocks from Guran, "while English players spontaneously use more finger articultion and many of them have difficulties creating a crisp staccato" it is very easy to create crisp staccato on the english, particularly with jumps of a fifth using one finger.


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 20 Sep 17 - 03:23 PM

Anglo playing spontaneously stimulates more use of bellows articulation particularly for staccato

I don't agree. Bellows reversals do not achieve staccato, merely that one note stops when the next one starts, which isn't the same thing. I always recommend my students to practice staccato by quick release of the finger from the button.

With the Anglo on the other hand *adding* a thumb strap may relieve the thumb from crampful muscular strain.

It's not going to do much for your air button control, though!


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: GUEST
Date: 21 Sep 17 - 05:25 AM

Brian: "I don't agree. Bellows reversals do not achieve staccato"

Sometimes it is a bit sad that concertina playing has not been subject to "academic tuition" in similar way as accordion playing ( to some degree...) has at some musical university institutions. I am not so keen on theorizing practical matters myself but sometimes it may help no doubt.
Of course "staccato" can be achieved both by "finger articulation" and "bellows articulation" ( in accordion tuition those terms were introduced by Hugo Herrmann in the 1930s). Mostly in practise there are various degrees of combination.

Brian:( thumbstrap for anglo): It's not going to do much for your air button control, though!

That can be easily fixed! I have tried it myself and so has Colin Dipper and Geoff Crabb for some of their customers and quite a few players have done it for themselves by various modifications


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: The Sandman
Date: 22 Sep 17 - 02:32 AM

'Sometimes it is a bit sad that concertina playing has not been subject to "academic tuition" in similar way as accordion playing ( to some degree...) has at some musical university institutions. I am not so keen on theorizing practical matters myself but sometimes it may help no doubt"
Concertina playing has been the subject of many tutors, I have two at my website, www.dickmiles.com
there are also many workshops at festivals and also organised by concertina groups which do help with tuition.
Piano accordion players[ partly because of the weight of the instrument] are often in my experience, guilty of not thinking about bellows use, so much for piano accordion academic tuition., it seems to have had very little effect in the folk world.


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: Guran
Date: 22 Sep 17 - 03:59 AM

In the academic accordion "world" the button accordeon, and in Scandinavia particularly the free bass button accordeon, seems to be dominating over the piano accordion but that is not the main point - "bellows use" definitely - all since the days of 1930s ( Hugo Herrmann and others)- contrary to what you say has had a prominent part. "The folk world" as you say is different (but cajun/zydeco style for instance due to the rhythmical idiom is one exception) and it certainly might be fruitful having more contact or "synthesis" between the academic and folk players concerning development of playing techniques. Counts for all instruments....


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: Guran
Date: 22 Sep 17 - 11:52 AM

I have to add that some ( surprisingly not all) concertina tutors do mention the importance of bellows control BUT mostly just in general terms like "the bellows is the soul of the squeezebox" or "use the bellows like the bow of the violin"...but without much analysis of the practical aims and means for it.Allan Atlas ( for the English system) tried to some part to reawaken the "Victorian" approach of Regondi and others but it is possible to go much further than that. Alsepti ( or maybe firstly Lachenals) introduced the notorious "bowing valves" but maybe they just made things extra complicated...


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: Brian Peters
Date: 22 Sep 17 - 01:49 PM

I do agree, Guran, about the importance of bellows control in any type of concertina. It can't do everything a violin bow can, but it is the source of dynamics, and hence of both rhythm in dance music and expression in slow tunes.


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 22 Sep 17 - 06:06 PM

For me the major advantage of the anglo over other systems is that you have a home position with eight fingers on eight buttons. Depending on what tune you are playing and your personal inclinations and skill you move your fingers away from that home position to a greater or lesser extent, but in that home position you already have sixteen notes immediately available.

Of course, like most things in life, the anglo also has disadvantages. For some people the completely different sets of notes on push and pull are mind bending. And you can't (as on the other systems) change bellows direction independently of what notes you wish to play.

I advise anyone wondering what kind of musical instrument to take up to beg or borrow (preferably not steal) several different kinds to have a go on. With luck, one kind will quickly feel more natural than the others.

I dabbled with various instruments in my childhood and early adulthood, then one day I came upon a 20-key German concertina in a store room. I fiddled with it for a bit and found that it made some sense to me. I found the owner who sold it to me for the same £2 that it had cost him. I soon graduated to better instruments, and eventually to several 40-key anglos.


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: The Sandman
Date: 23 Sep 17 - 08:26 PM

Richard,I believe you had to wait a very long time to have one made.


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: Richard Mellish
Date: 24 Sep 17 - 05:42 PM

> Richard,I believe you had to wait a very long time to have one made

Two very long times for two of mine from two different makers. In both cases there were reasons and in neither case have I any grudge.


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Subject: RE: Help: Concertinas: Anglo vs. English?
From: The Sandman
Date: 25 Sep 17 - 08:07 AM

there are some very good concertina craftsmen out there, but a shortage of them, for amount of work, hence delays


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