BS: gas prices

Subject: RE: BS: gas prices
From: kendall
Date: 11 Jan 01 - 12:41 PM

No amount of faith can create a fact.

Subject: RE: BS: gas prices
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 11 Jan 01 - 02:14 PM

"You're asking for a very drastic change in people's behavior based on something unproven and (currently) unprovable."

That's exactly what they said about smoking tobacco. But at least most of the damage done by smokers is to themselves, not to poor people away in foreign countries. (Except of course that that is exactly where the tobacco pushers are concentrating on building-up sales now.)

Subject: RE: BS: gas prices
From: Gypsy
Date: 11 Jan 01 - 04:49 PM

I find it interesting that it appears that most SUVs (in my area, anyway) never leave pavement. Why on earth have such a monster to four wheel on the highway?

Subject: RE: BS: gas prices
From: kendall
Date: 11 Jan 01 - 09:22 PM

My guess would be, testosterone poisoning. A rare form of missle envy.

Subject: RE: BS: gas prices
From: Troll
Date: 11 Jan 01 - 09:49 PM

Fine. You have defined the problem and, at least in part, assigned blame. The one thing that NONE of you has done or even begun to do, is suggest a WORKABLE solution.
It's all very well to blame the industrialized countries for global warming(IF it actually exists and IF it is caused by man)but what do you intend to do about it other than feel very righteous because you are on the 'Right" side. What is the name of the organization that you founded and/or support that is working to convince the peoples of the industrialized world to change their entire economy.
All I hear is rhetoric and sloganeering. I hear no one suggesting practical solutions.
In the words of an old poem:
I move, since no one seems to yearn,
To bell the cat, that we adjourn!

troll

Subject: RE: BS: gas prices
From: kendall
Date: 12 Jan 01 - 04:26 AM

I sold my motor home. 8 miles to the gallon.

Subject: RE: BS: gas prices
From: Lady McMoo
Date: 12 Jan 01 - 07:37 AM

Dear Troll,

I am an environmental scientist and the simple answer is that it lies in EACH of OUR hands. It is not a problem that can be foisted onto some agency or organization. It is a matter of personal responsibility for the environment.

BTW, I DO cycle or use public transport every day even though using a car would be quicker and more convenient, I DO separate and recycle my rubbish assiduusly, I DO pay the extra for organically grown food and I do as far as I can choose NOT to buy goods that I know are harmful to the environment or that are unsustainable. I cannot promulgate a solution unless I am prepared to abide by it myself.

Respectfully,

mcmoo

Subject: RE: BS: gas prices
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jan 01 - 07:57 AM

It started out as testosterone poisining some years back, Kendall, but think you'll find now that the majority of SUV & such like Urban Assault Vehicle drivers are women- at least by 'windshield survey' in my neck of the woods. Also, beileve there was a study of some sort a while back that came up with the same result nationwide. Go figure...

Best, Greg

Subject: RE: BS: gas prices
From: kendall
Date: 12 Jan 01 - 09:14 AM

My theory on that is, women need to feel safe. Especially when carrying children.

Subject: RE: BS: gas prices
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 12 Jan 01 - 09:44 AM

Over in England too most of the prettified jeeps seem to be driven by women. Normally small women with lots of little milling around. Maybe that's a formmof testosterone poisoning too though.

But troll, exchanging views and talking about it is what discussion threads are about. We aren't going to solve the problems of the planet online. But we can get some pointers, and some information, and a better understanding of where other people's heads are at.

The solutions aren't that difficult to see. In the first place, what needs to be done is stop burning fossil fuels, and that means finding alternative sources ogf energy and using less energy.

But finding ways in which people (incuding ourselves) can actually be willing to change their ways of doing things in order to do what needs to be done, that is a much bigger problem.

Subject: RE: BS: gas prices
From: Troll
Date: 12 Jan 01 - 03:12 PM

The last four or five responses simply reinforce my point. Everything that was said was either macro (stop burning fossil fuels) or micro (sold my motorhome)
Nowhere was any solution suggested.
Of course it's up to each of individually to protect the environment but individual effort is not enough. There must be group effort as well and it must reach across class and cultural lines to do any good.
Doing the right things individually can give you a warm fuzzy feeling but if you are the only one doing them, you will die with all the polluters when the air turns to unbreathable sludge.
I repeat, individual effort is not enough.
McMoo, not to pick on you, but as an environmental scientist you should have some solutions in mind. Does anyone else?

troll

Subject: RE: BS: gas prices
From: Burke
Date: 12 Jan 01 - 06:24 PM

Of course, individual effort is not enough. That's why I support the work of NRDC, Environmental Defense, and my state PIRG. These organizations have scientists, lawyers & others who both defend the environment & work for changes on a larger scale. I'm sure there are other good effective organizations.

Personally I recycle like crazy, but our whole county has a curbside recycling program. That's where differences are made. There are, or at least were, federal regulations on energy efficiency ratings for auto sales. I think the SUV's have avoided these regulations because of not being classed as cars.

It takes both individual personal changes and societal changes. Governmental regualtion to achieve some of these goals is controversial. Societal change come slowly, but it's discussions like this one that can make people aware of the possibilities.

One of the problems with the whole gas problem is that we've had at least 75 years of building based on cheap gas & it's really hard to put effective mass transit into the suburbs as they are in the US. We can't tear them all down, but it seems like lots get ever bigger in new developments.

Subject: RE: BS: gas prices
From: MarkS
Date: 12 Jan 01 - 06:33 PM

Lets look at some successes and then extrapolate ahead. Even an SUV today gets better gas mileage than the standard 4 door sedan of the 60's. The tires last longer, the interval between oil changes is longer, and they most certainly pollute less. I think we have every reason to believe the improvements will continue over the next 30 years as well.
Please, all, don't think I am defending pollution or environmental misuse. Just look at how far we have come and lets hold out some reasonable hope for the future.
MarkS

Subject: RE: BS: gas prices
From: Lady McMoo
Date: 12 Jan 01 - 07:22 PM

My point is that a lot of individual responsibility-taking adds up to a great deal in the end. In fact the changing of individual behaviours is the only feasible long-term solution. Of course I support the work of all environmental agencies and organizations and do what little I can in my own work. But at the end of the day it will be collective understanding and the sum of individual efforts that will make the difference. A little everyday from a lot of people adds up to a massive difference over the period of a lifetime.

Troll. I have plenty of possible solutions in mind. Where would you like me to start?

Sensible discussions like those in this thread can only help this process.

Peace to all

mcmoo

Subject: RE: BS: gas prices
From: Greg F.
Date: 12 Jan 01 - 08:48 PM

Maybe women would feel safer driving smaller vehicles, Kendall, if there were fewer testosterone-poisoned Bubbas (and Bubettas) tearing around in oversized SUV's? Perhaps they're the problem rather than the solution.

Best, Greg

Subject: RE: BS: gas prices
From: Troll
Date: 12 Jan 01 - 09:09 PM

McMoo, why not right here and right now?

troll

Subject: RE: BS: gas prices
From: kendall
Date: 12 Jan 01 - 09:43 PM

It's interesting to note that one insurance company haS LOWERD rates for SUV's because they are safer, and another company has raised them because they do so much damage! State Farm was one of them. How's that for going in circles?

Subject: RE: BS: gas prices
From: Burke
Date: 12 Jan 01 - 09:50 PM

I think, the safety felt in SUV's is not from other drivers as much as road conditions. Two of my co-workers drive RAV4's. Both drive 30-40 miles to work on rural highways where there can be lots of snow in the winter. Kendall's in Maine & probably sees the same. Even just as a passenger, I sure do like the way you can see so much more when up higher that way. With the rollover problem from the higher center of gravity, I'm not sure they are safer, but if Ford comes up with a fuel efficient one a promised, I'd be tempted.

Subject: RE: BS: gas prices
From: Gypsy
Date: 13 Jan 01 - 12:32 AM

Troll, to a certain extent, i agree with you. We DO need to have bigger, better organized ways of going green. But even that won't work without the individual changing the lifestyle. Things like: Avoid overpackaging. Buy bulk. The less packaging that you generate to throw away, the less in a landfill. Recycle. We have 5 five gallon buckets on the porch. We separate as we go, and recycle once a quarter. Must you have perfect produce? When you consider the impact that pesticides create on the environment? For that matter, must you have out of season produce? And of course, must you eat meat? Consider what that does to the environment! How often MUST you drive to town? Could you cut down by 2-3 trips? These, and many more, we have practiced for over twenty years. If more people behaved this way, wouldn't the accumulative effect make a difference?

Subject: RE: BS: gas prices
From: kendall
Date: 13 Jan 01 - 08:38 AM

I have lived in Maine for 66 years, and, I have NEVER needed 4 wheel drive. We know how to deal with large amounts of snow, and the roads here are always passable.

Subject: RE: BS: gas prices
From: BanjoRay
Date: 13 Jan 01 - 08:41 PM

What's the solution I hear you all cry - as an ex-British Coal scientist, I've thought a lot about it over the years. Of course the coal industry didn't want anyone to find a coal substitute! That's the world's problem - none of the power industries want to make themselves redundant. However I think there's a possible answer, and I'd like to hear your views on the feasability of it.

Most of the world's oil at present comes from desert areas of the world - energy is these people's only source of income. The amount of sunlight energy they get per square yard of what seems to be useless ground must be immense. So you convert the sunlight into saleable useful energy.

You cover large areas of desert with photovoltaic cells which generate vast amounts of electricity. This is cabled to the coast where it is used for the electrolysis of sea water - splitting it into hydrogen and oxygen. Both gases would be exported worldwide - the hydrogen for powering the world's vehicles etc - it burns to form water and nothing else. The oxygen would have countless industrial uses.

The OPEC countries must be very worried about the limited lifetime of their oil stocks - they could be using some of their huge profits now to ensure much more over the coming centuries.

So what do you guys out there think? Could it work? and if not, why not?

Cheers
Ray

Subject: RE: BS: gas prices
From: Troll
Date: 13 Jan 01 - 10:49 PM

And who manufactures these photovoltaic cells at what cost? Considering the amount of energy that would be needed to make the cells and the work involved in setting up a vast network of them to generate the needed power to separate Hydrogen and oxygen from water, I'm not sure that the energy debt could be paid back.
Photo-cells can be made that are fairly resistant to damage now but thats only been true for a few years and they are pretty low yield. A cell farm has to be set so the cells follow the sun for maximum output. This requires sophisticated tracking gear and panels mounted on bearings.
The desert environment is not kind to such things; sand and dust get into everything and maintainence is a nightmare. Ask anyone who has worked in North Africa or was in Desert Storm.
IF all the problems could be overcome at reasonable expense in time and energy, it's a nice idea.

troll

Subject: RE: BS: gas prices
From: McGrath of Harlow
Date: 14 Jan 01 - 07:49 AM

Alternatives do have a cost - and the present way of organising things means that the cost paid by motorists for burning petrol is vastly less than the true cost.

Most of the cost of petrol is shuffled off onto people who don't have an effective voice, people in poor countries, and our own children and grandchildren.

If we had to pay the true cost of burning fossil fuels it would be so high that we would be effectively looking for alternatives, and paying for the cost of developing them.

In principle the best way would be to levy a charge on fossil fuels which would be exclusively used for these kinds of thing. The trouble is that this seems to be politically impossible, and this years brouhaha in the United Kingdom is an example of how it can backfire - though this was made much worse by the fact that the increased cost of petrol was not being used to pay for developing and supplying alternatives.

Probably the best hope is that, even with the unrealistically low price of petrol, viable alternatives and changes in society will be developed which will in fact ultimately drive it out of the market. Solar power, wind power, wave power, biomass (especially biomass) - all of them have the possibility of providing what is needed, together with electric cars, home-working, imaginative public transport and so forth.

The most optimistic thing I ever heard about all this was the Arab oilman (I forget his name) who pointed out that the reason people moved out of using the technology of Stone Age was not because the stones had run out.

Subject: RE: BS: gas prices
From: Peg
Date: 15 Jan 01 - 12:14 AM

Boy is it amazing in this day and age that people are still in denial about global warming...

the only thing that disgusts me more than people being blind to environmental destruction is people thinking our 'energy problems" will be solved by drilling for oil in Alaska, destroying a unique natural landscape and simply prolonging the inevitable admission that THIS GREEDY STUPID WAY OF LIFE HAS TO STOP!!!

No, I don't own a car.

Call me an ignorant bleeding heart; I worked for Greenpeace for years and did a lot of research on these matters. It can seem a waste of time detailing the facts for those too contrary and stubborn to see the truth of what humankind has wrought...but the effort still has to be made.