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Help: Unusual Devon songs

Deni 18 Jan 01 - 06:11 AM
MMario 18 Jan 01 - 08:22 AM
Helen 18 Jan 01 - 06:02 PM
GUEST,Kytrad 18 Jan 01 - 06:10 PM
Tattie Bogle 18 Jan 01 - 07:44 PM
Deni 19 Jan 01 - 03:44 AM
Uncle_DaveO 19 Jan 01 - 12:37 PM
Deni 19 Jan 01 - 03:48 PM
Helen 19 Jan 01 - 05:52 PM
Snuffy 19 Jan 01 - 07:54 PM
Uncle_DaveO 20 Jan 01 - 11:53 AM
Snuffy 20 Jan 01 - 04:40 PM
GUEST,Gerald 20 Jan 01 - 09:00 PM
Bob Bolton 20 Jan 01 - 09:59 PM
Helen 21 Jan 01 - 04:13 AM
Helen 21 Jan 01 - 04:22 AM
Keith A of Hertford 21 Jan 01 - 05:20 PM
Deni 22 Jan 01 - 06:28 AM
Snuffy 22 Jan 01 - 08:47 AM
Snuffy 25 Jan 01 - 05:18 PM
Uncle_DaveO 25 Jan 01 - 05:44 PM
Snuffy 25 Jan 01 - 05:58 PM
Bob Bolton 26 Jan 01 - 03:34 AM
Deni 28 Jan 01 - 08:57 AM
Helen 28 Jan 01 - 05:11 PM
Lanfranc 28 Jan 01 - 05:58 PM
Desert Dancer 28 Jan 01 - 07:27 PM
Malcolm Douglas 28 Jan 01 - 07:49 PM
Hawker 31 Jan 01 - 01:54 PM
Deni 06 Feb 01 - 06:25 AM
Bob Bolton 06 Feb 01 - 07:02 AM
Richard Bridge 06 Feb 01 - 10:38 AM
Malcolm Douglas 06 Feb 01 - 10:45 AM
GUEST,Kernow Jon 06 Feb 01 - 11:53 AM
MMario 06 Feb 01 - 11:59 AM
GUEST,Kernow Jon 06 Feb 01 - 04:22 PM
Desert Dancer 06 Feb 01 - 11:29 PM
Snuffy 07 Feb 01 - 09:36 AM
Deni 09 Feb 01 - 01:37 AM
GUEST,Kernow Jon 09 Feb 01 - 05:59 PM
Deni 12 Feb 01 - 05:21 AM
GUEST,Kernow Jon 12 Feb 01 - 07:11 AM
GUEST,Brian Hoskin 12 Feb 01 - 07:41 AM
Hawker 12 Feb 01 - 06:39 PM
Wotcha 12 Feb 01 - 11:51 PM
Snuffy 13 Feb 01 - 08:24 AM
Deni 13 Feb 01 - 05:33 PM
Brian Hoskin 14 Feb 01 - 05:30 AM
Brian Hoskin 14 Feb 01 - 05:33 AM
GUEST,Kernow Jon 14 Feb 01 - 06:23 AM
Hawker 14 Feb 01 - 04:42 PM
Hawker 15 Feb 01 - 05:04 AM
Jo Taylor 19 Feb 01 - 06:32 PM
Deni 21 Feb 01 - 05:41 PM
Snuffy 14 Feb 05 - 08:42 AM
Leadfingers 14 Feb 05 - 09:23 AM
Malcolm Douglas 14 Feb 05 - 10:50 AM
Uncle_DaveO 14 Feb 05 - 11:06 AM
Tradsinger 14 Feb 05 - 03:15 PM
BB 15 Feb 05 - 12:48 PM
Tradsinger 23 Jul 06 - 03:29 PM
GUEST 30 May 11 - 10:35 AM
Gurney 30 May 11 - 03:27 PM
GUEST,ClaireO 18 Jun 11 - 09:34 AM
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Subject: Unusual Devon songs
From: Deni
Date: 18 Jan 01 - 06:11 AM

Hello. We're Mad Rush, a trad. and contemporary folk duo from Plymouth, Devon,UK, who would like to find some traditional songs that are slightly more unusual, or lesser known, which were collected in Devon. I have combed every book in the Plymouth Music Library and found loads of lovely songs,which we've added to our list. Has anyone a favourite song which travelled with Devon people when they went overseas, for example?

Our CD, How Well I Remember was released last year, and includes some of our own songs about events in and around Devon. We're currently researching a traditional album.

Hope you can help. Thanks from Mad Rush.


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Subject: RE: Help: Unusual Devon songs
From: MMario
Date: 18 Jan 01 - 08:22 AM

well - a search in the DT only turns up 7 songs that mention Devon - but it might help if you could give us a list of what you already have. someone might have an older, different version of something you do, or it might "trigger" some recollections.


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Subject: RE: Help: Unusual Devon songs
From: Helen
Date: 18 Jan 01 - 06:02 PM

Our session group plays a beautiful tune called Farewell to Devon. I did post a thread a year or so ago trying to find out more about it, who wrote it, performs it, history, anything. But, no results. I will try to convert the midi file I have into a MidiText file and post it here.

Helen in Oz


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Subject: RE: Help: Unusual Devon songs
From: GUEST,Kytrad
Date: 18 Jan 01 - 06:10 PM

Does your group know the Padstow May Day Song? "Unite and unite and let us all unite, for summer is ecummin today"... I saw the "Old Oss" come out back in 1952, and afterwards helped make the film about the May celebration there. I have always loved the song. Jean


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Subject: RE: Help: Unusual Devon songs
From: Tattie Bogle
Date: 18 Jan 01 - 07:44 PM

OO-aarh! Padstow be in Cornwall, me love, not in Deb'n; don't you let no Cornishman 'ear you say that, unless you fancy being thrown in the Tamar!. I got "Dead Dog Scrumpy" from the DT not long ago, thanks to other mudcatters - may not be traditional, but it does definitely mention DEVON! - and it's a good song. Tattie B


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Subject: RE: Help: Unusual Devon songs
From: Deni
Date: 19 Jan 01 - 03:44 AM

Thanks for the response.

Helen, I love the idea of Farewell to Devon. Maybe if I played it here we might find out more about origins. If it turns out to be trad. or anon, we could record it and credit you with passing it on to us. As to the Cornish song mentioned, I do have it in an old song book, and it is a good song.

Lovely to 'hear' all the Westcountry accents coming out in the forum! cheers

Deni


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Subject: Lyr Add: Jan's Courtship ^^
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 19 Jan 01 - 12:37 PM

JAN'S COURTSHIP

Coom 'ither, zon Jan, zinz thou art a man
I'll gie the best counsel in life.
Coom sit down by me and my story shall be
I'll tell how to get thee a wife,
...Iss I will, man I will, zoor I will
...I'll tell how to get thee a wife,
...Iss I will.

Thyzelf thou must dress in thy Zunday-go-best
They'll at first turn away and be shy.
But boldly kiss each pretty maid that thou seest
They'll call thee their luv by and by
...Iss they will, man they will, zoor they will
...They'll call thee their luv by and by
...Iss they will.

So a-coortin' Jan goes, in 'is 'oliday clothes
All trim, nothin' ragged and torn.
From 'is 'at to 'is 'ose, with a sweet yellow rose
'E looked like a gentleman born,
...Iss 'e did, man 'e did, zoor 'e did.
...'E looked like a gentleman born,
...Iss he did.

The first pretty lass that Jan did see pass
A Varmer's Vat daughter called Grace
'E'd scarce said How-do and a kind word or two
'Er fetched 'im a slap in the face
...Iss 'er did, man 'er did, zoor 'er did.
...'Er fetched 'im a slap in the face!
...Iss 'er did.

As Jan, never fear-id of nothin' at all,
Was walkin' a-down by the locks
'E kissed the parson's wife, which stirred up a strife
And Jan was put into the stocks,
...Iss 'e was, man 'e was, zoor 'e was
...And Jan was put into the stocks
...Iss 'e was.

"If this be the way how to get me a wife,"
Quoth Jan, "I will never have none!
I'd rather live zingle the 'ole of me life
And 'ome to me mummy I'll run,
...Iss I will, man I will, zoor I will
...And 'ome to me mummy I'll run
...Iss I will!"

DRO
From the singing of Wallace House, Folkways, 1952.
As should be plain from the rhymes, "Jan" is pronounced "John".

Dave Oesterreich ^^


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Subject: RE: Help: Unusual Devon songs
From: Deni
Date: 19 Jan 01 - 03:48 PM

Thanks Dave O, for putting Devon back on the folk map.

Jan's Courtship is a new one on me! Can't think how it slipped past, but I'll have a serious look at it.

Cheers

Deni


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Subject: RE: Help: Unusual Devon songs
From: Helen
Date: 19 Jan 01 - 05:52 PM

I tried to convert the midi file to a MidiText file but it didn't work. It's probably easier if I send it to you by e-mail as a midi file anyway. It's a lovely tune. We often play it with Margaret's Waltz.

I have sent you a personal message with my e-mail address.

Helen


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Subject: RE: Help: Unusual Devon songs
From: Snuffy
Date: 19 Jan 01 - 07:54 PM

Those two do seem to go together. I've got a Yetties CD where one track is "Farewell to Devon, Margaret's Waltz. But they're from Dorset!

Wassail! V


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Subject: RE: Help: Unusual Devon songs
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 20 Jan 01 - 11:53 AM

Deni:

If you've not run across Jan's Courtship before, you'll be wondering what the tune is like. Of course now knowing the title and words you may be able to find someone who knows it. If you can't I'll try to help.

I don't have facilities to send a tune by the web or e-mail. If all else fails, PM me and I'll put it on tape, along with some other songs just to fill the tape up, and send it to you.

This song is really fun, especially the chorus lines, which are a sort of a drone, Johnny-one-note effect.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: Help: Unusual Devon songs
From: Snuffy
Date: 20 Jan 01 - 04:40 PM

Have you got "The Devonshire Farmer's Daughter", about a girl who gets the better of a highwayman? I've got in a compilation double-CD "The Best of English Folk" sung by George Deacon with harmonium accompaniment MArion Ross.

Of course, it's probably not from Devon - I have a field recording made in Suffolk of a debased version of the same song which is called "The Rich Farmer From "!!!.

Still, if you want it I'll post the words here.

Wassail! V


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Subject: RE: Help: Unusual Devon songs
From: GUEST,Gerald
Date: 20 Jan 01 - 09:00 PM

Try Cyril Tawney's OGGY MAN He can be found on the web and lyrics on OLGA.


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Subject: RE: Help: Unusual Devon songs
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 20 Jan 01 - 09:59 PM

G'day Deni ... and Helen ..et al,

I also have Margaret's Waltz bracketted with Farewell to Devon and this seems to be pretty common. I wonder if, like Margaret's Waltz, Farewell to Devon is a Pat Fulham Shaw (EFDSS) tune?

The styles and feels are certainly similar. You might find a page of Shaw's tune on the EFDSS site (I don't have it bookmarked (and I should be working on next issue of Mulga Wire), but you can't miss searching on "EFDSS" ... and maybe adding "Pat Shaw".

Regards,

Bob Bolton


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Subject: RE: Help: Unusual Devon songs
From: Helen
Date: 21 Jan 01 - 04:13 AM

Bob,

The two tunes (Margaret's Waltz & Farewell to Devon) are on a photocopied page of what looks like a dance music book. It's the right hand page and has the word "SET" in large handwritten letters in the left-top of the page, as if the title of the type of dance set is printed across the two facing pages. The song titles are hand lettered too, and the music looks handdrawn. The layout and fonts look really familiar to me, but it's not the Blue Book and not Begged, Borrowed or Stolen.

I can scan it and send it to you if you don't recognise the description because it would probably help a lot if we knew which book it is in.

Here is the MidiText file if anyone is interested.

MIDI file: fwel_dvn.mid

Timebase: 192

Name: fwel_dvn
Text: By Unregistered User
Copyright: Copyright © 1999 by NoteWorthy ArtWare, Inc.
Key: G
TimeSig: 3/4 24 8
Start
0000 1 74 110 0160 0 74 000 0032 1 79 110 0256 0 79 000 0032 1 78 110 0094 0 78 000 0002 1 76 110 0094 0 76 000 0002 1 74 110 0094 0 74 000 0002 1 71 110 0160 0 71 000 0032 1 74 110 0336 0 74 000 0048 1 67 110 0160 0 67 000 0032 1 67 110 0160 0 67 000 0032 1 69 110 0160 0 69 000 0032 1 71 110 0336 0 71 000 0048 1 74 110 0160 0 74 000 0032 1 79 110 0256 0 79 000 0032 1 78 110 0094 0 78 000 0002 1 76 110 0094 0 76 000 0002 1 74 110 0094 0 74 000 0002 1 71 110 0160 0 71 000 0032 1 74 110 0336 0 74 000 0048 1 71 110 0094 0 71 000 0002 1 69 110 0094 0 69 000 0002 1 67 110 0160 0 67 000 0032 1 71 110 0160 0 71 000 0032 1 69 110 0336 0 69 000 0048 1 74 110 0160 0 74 000 0032 1 79 110 0256 0 79 000 0032 1 78 110 0094 0 78 000 0002 1 76 110 0094 0 76 000 0002 1 74 110 0094 0 74 000 0002 1 74 110 0160 0 74 000 0032 1 71 110 0336 0 71 000 0048 1 76 110 0286 0 76 000 0002 1 74 110 0094 0 74 000 0002 1 72 110 0094 0 72 000 0002 1 71 110 0094 0 71 000 0002 1 71 110 0160 0 71 000 0032 1 67 110 0352 0 67 000 0032 1 72 110 0256 0 72 000 0032 1 71 110 0094 0 71 000 0002 1 69 110 0094 0 69 000 0002 1 67 110 0094 0 67 000 0002 1 69 110 0256 0 69 000 0032 1 67 110 0094 0 67 000 0002 1 66 110 0094 0 66 000 0002 1 64 110 0094 0 64 000 0002 1 62 110 0160 0 62 000 0032 1 71 110 0160 0 71 000 0032 1 69 110 0160 0 69 000 0032 1 67 110 0336 0 67 000 0048 1 62 110 0160 0 62 000 0032 1 67 110 0256 0 67 000 0032 1 69 110 0094 0 69 000 0002 1 71 110 0094 0 71 000 0002 1 69 110 0094 0 69 000 0002 1 67 110 0160 0 67 000 0032 1 62 110 0336 0 62 000 0048 1 69 110 0286 0 69 000 0002 1 71 110 0094 0 71 000 0002 1 72 110 0094 0 72 000 0002 1 71 110 0094 0 71 000 0002 1 69 110 0160 0 69 000 0032 1 62 110 0352 0 62 000 0032 1 71 110 0256 0 71 000 0032 1 72 110 0094 0 72 000 0002 1 74 110 0094 0 74 000 0002 1 72 110 0094 0 72 000 0002 1 71 110 0160 0 71 000 0032 1 67 110 0160 0 67 000 0032 1 72 110 0094 0 72 000 0002 1 74 110 0094 0 74 000 0002 1 76 110 0286 0 76 000 0002 1 74 110 0094 0 74 000 0002 1 72 110 0094 0 72 000 0002 1 71 110 0094 0 71 000 0002 1 69 110 0544 0 69 000 0032 1 71 110 0256 0 71 000 0032 1 72 110 0094 0 72 000 0002 1 74 110 0094 0 74 000 0002 1 72 110 0094 0 72 000 0002 1 71 110 0160 0 71 000 0032 1 67 110 0336 0 67 000 0048 1 72 110 0286 0 72 000 0002 1 74 110 0094 0 74 000 0002 1 76 110 0094 0 76 000 0002 1 74 110 0094 0 74 000 0002 1 72 110 0160 0 72 000 0032 1 69 110 0160 0 69 000 0032 1 71 110 0094 0 71 000 0002 1 72 110 0094 0 72 000 0002 1 74 110 0256 0 74 000 0032 1 76 110 0094 0 76 000 0002 1 78 110 0094 0 78 000 0002 1 74 110 0094 0 74 000 0002 1 79 110 0160 0 79 000 0032 1 67 110 0160 0 67 000 0032 1 72 110 0160 0 72 000 0032 1 71 110 0286 0 71 000 0002 1 72 110 0094 0 72 000 0002 1 69 110 0160 0 69 000 0032 1 67 110 0336 0 67 000
End

This program is worth the effort of learning it.

To download the March 10 MIDItext 98 software and get instructions on how to use it click here

ABC format:

X:1
T:fwel_dvn
M:3/4
Q:1/4=120
K:G
d2g3f|edB2d2|-d2G2G2|A2B4|d2g3f|edB2d2|-d2BAG2|
B2A4|d2g3f|edd2B2|-B2e3d|cBB2G2|-G2c3B|AGA3G|
FED2B2|A2G4|D2G3A|BAG2D2|-D2A3B|cBA2D2|-D2B3c|
dcB2G2|cde3d|cBA4|-A2B3c|dcB2G2|-G2c3d|edc2A2|
Bcd3e|fdg2G2|c2B3c|A2G7/2||

Helen


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Subject: RE: Help: Unusual Devon songs
From: Helen
Date: 21 Jan 01 - 04:22 AM

Look at that: I just did a search on Google and found a reference to the song here. It *is* written by Pat Shaw. Bob, you're right again.

http://milton.mse.jhu.edu:8001/research/folkindex/F02.htm Farewell to Devon - Shaw, Pat (Pat Shuldham-Shaw) 1.McBains Country Dance Band. English Folk Dances, EMI CLP 3754, LP (1974), cut# 7b

Helen


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Subject: RE: Help: Unusual Devon songs
From: Keith A of Hertford
Date: 21 Jan 01 - 05:20 PM

I suppose you have Widecombe Fair?
How about The Bell Ringing, where the place names straddle the Devon - Cornwall border?
Good luck, Keith


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Subject: RE: Help: Unusual Devon songs
From: Deni
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 06:28 AM

Dave O

I'll ask around & see if any of our folkies know the tune of Jan's Courtship, if not, I'll ask you, but it seems a lot of trouble for you to go to!

Gerald

Two of the members of my club, The Hyde, sing The Oggy Man. Thanks

Snuffy

have never heard of the Devonshire Farmer's Daughter, but it might be a later adaptation of a Highwayman song I do have. Will you post the words here please?

Thanks to Bob Bolton & Helen for sourcing Farewell to Devon. I've listened to it now and it is a good tune. Pity its not Trad. though, because of mechanical copyrights and what-not.

Keith Yes, I've got Widecombe Fair and the Bell-ringing song. I'm really grateful for all help received.

PS Anyone wanting to visit our local westcountry folk music website can find it on www.flaxey-green.co.uk Some of Mad Rush's own song clips as well as the odd traditional one are posted there, along with pictures and info on various local artistes.

Cheers

Deni


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Subject: RE: Help: Unusual Devon songs
From: Snuffy
Date: 22 Jan 01 - 08:47 AM

Deni,

I'm pretty tied up this week, so it will probably be the weekend before i can post Devonshire Farmer's Daughter, but I'll squeeze it in sooner if I can

Wassail! V


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Subject: Lyr Add: THE DEVONSHIRE FARMER'S DAUGHTER^^
From: Snuffy
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 05:18 PM

Deni,

Here's The Devonshire Farmer's Daughter, and The Farmer from Cheshire (recorded in Suffolk). See also The Highwayman Outwitted which the Digital Tradition database has assigned the number DT #682. Here the farmer is from Lincolnshire. This thread gives a Scottish version where it's the farmer who outwits the highwayman.This tale seems to be pretty widespread, so I don't know if you'd count it as a Devon song. See also The Crafty Farmer and the Crafty Boy in the DT for similar table turning exploits (Child #283).

The Cheshire version is notable not only for its economic telling of the tale, but also for the fact that it doesn't rhyme until verse 5!

THE DEVONSHIRE FARMER'S DAUGHTER

In Devonshire lived a rich farmer,
His daughter to market did go.
Believing that no-one could harm her,
Oft-times she did ride to and fro.

It happened to be on a Wednesday,
A great deal of corn she had sold.
She's gone to receive every penny.
They paid her in silver and gold.

In a portmantle she put it,
In this portmantle put she.
For fear of some beggars or troopers
A robbing all on the highway.

One gay, gallant trooper she's met with
He bade this poor damsel to stay.
But she would not have stayed for the heavens,
But galloped along the highway

He pulled this young girl from her saddle
He gave her his bridle to hold.
While she's in the shaking and [babering?]
O almost a-froze with the cold.

She off with her foot in his stirrup
And away she did ride like a man.
"Come follow me, follow me, trooper.
Come follow me home if you can."

He run, but he could not get after:
His boots they were baffled in snow.
"Come, rein up, my pretty young damsel.
I'll give you back your money and gold."

"No matter, no matter," she shouted,
"You can keep it all now, if you will.
For I've leaved you a bag full of farthings,
A sum of five shilling to tell."

She rode over hills, over mountains,
Till she came to her father's own gate.
Her father was sorely affrighted.
To see her come home in her whites.

"And where have you been to my daughter?
O where have you tarried so long?"
"Some very rough wooers I have met with,
But still I have suffered no wrong.

He looked in the trooper's portmantle,
And in the portmantle he found
Large pieces of gold and of silver
Which mounted to six hundred pounds.

"Here's six hundred pounds here, my daughter.
And I will add six hundred more.
And you now have a plentiful fortune
To keep the cold wind from the door."

DT#682
Laws L2
Recorded by George Deacon (vocal) & Marion Ross (harmonium) originally on Transatlantic. Reissued on compilation double-CD The best of English Folk, 1999. Essential ESCD770.



THE FARMER FROM CHESHIRE

There was a rich farmer in Cheshire,
And his daughter to market would go.
Thinking of no harm or danger,
For she'd been on that highway before.

She met with an uncivil roadster,
Two pistols he drew from his side.
Saying "Deliver up your money and clothing
Or you will die in distress."

He stripped that poor lady star-naked,
But she mounted that mare like a man.
She galloped over hedgerow and ditches
Till she came to her dear father's door.

"O daughter, o daughter, what's happened?
Why stayest you late from the fair?"
O father, I've been in geat danger,
But the villain has done me no harm."

She put the grey mare in the stable,
And spread a white cloth on the floor.
She counted her money twice over,
And she counted a thousand and more.

But now she's a carriage to ride in,
And a coachman to ride by her side,
Servants to wait at the table,
And plenty of money besides.

DT#682
Laws L2
Collected 1985-87 by John Howson at Wickham Skeith, Suffolk from the singing of Charlie Stringer. Songs Sung in Suffolk Vol 3, (1988), Veteran Tapes VT103



Wassail! V


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Subject: RE: Help: Unusual Devon songs
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 05:44 PM

Both of these maiden-and-the-highwayman songs would fit the same tune Ewan McColl used to sing the Farmer-and-Highwayman song quoted in the other thread, although neither of these gives a chorus as did that one.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: Help: Unusual Devon songs
From: Snuffy
Date: 25 Jan 01 - 05:58 PM

I'll try to get round to transcribing the tunes in the coming weeks.


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Subject: RE: Help: Unusual Devon songs
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 26 Jan 01 - 03:34 AM

G'day all...

Helen: You wrote: " ... The two tunes (Margaret's Waltz & Farewell to Devon) are on a photocopied page of what looks like a dance music book. It's the right hand page and has the word "SET" in large handwritten letters in the left-top of the page, as if the title of the type of dance set is printed across the two facing pages. The song titles are hand lettered too, and the music looks handdrawn. The layout and fonts look really familiar to me, but it's not the Blue Book and not Begged, Borrowed or Stolen..."

Errrr... That sounds suspiciously like it is in my handwriting. If it is, you will notice that the layout is very clean and sight-reader friendly - even line lengths of 8 bars for waltzes (usually) - just as is most of the Blue Book (Bush Dance, D Johnson, Bush Music Club, Sydney, 1984/'87/'98), which I designed, edited and ilustrated ... but did not write.

We established a strong code on readability with that book and I developed on it in later works. That sounds like the second page of a Waltz Set I wrote up for the Heritage Ensemble, the musicians for the Bush Music Club's Heritage Ball.

(BTW: I am coordinating musicians for this years Ball ... want to stretch your harp repertoire?)

Quite a lot of musicians tried to dissuade me from moving over to computer setting for the music, because they loved playing from my hand script. I can do a lot of subtle things to improve the appearance an readability ... but I can't press a few buttons and correct a mistake ... or rewrite a phrase or two ... or pop it into a different key ... or save it as a MIDI to post to Mudcat ... or respace it to suit adifferent purpose ... or ???

I now use a computer program for setting - but do as much as I can to override its bloodyminded characteristics and make something nearly as good as hand script ... and a lot quicker and easier.

Anyway, enjoy the two waltzes. Don't bother finding the first page. The other two are not bad waltzes, but they don't go with these - and I only used them because the musical director wanted to try them out. They have become two different sets, for different waltzes. (Actually, I do have a couple of waltzes that go well with these - PM me if you want more.

Regards,

Bob Bolton


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Subject: RE: Help: Unusual Devon songs
From: Deni
Date: 28 Jan 01 - 08:57 AM

Hi Snuffy,

Thanks a million for the Devonshire Farmer's Daughter.

That one has distinct possibilities. We are starting work on our Trad. CD at the moment, so all this help is invaluable.

Thanks to everybody who helped so far. Cheers Deni


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Subject: RE: Help: Unusual Devon songs
From: Helen
Date: 28 Jan 01 - 05:11 PM

Hi Bob,

Yes, it probably is your handiwork. The word "set" and the titles of the two tunes are in handwritten capitals, probably done with a chisel-point calligraphy type of pen.

Very nice layout. Congrats on the good work.

Deni,

I've been wondering how difficult/expensive it would be to get permission to use Pat Shaw's tune. It's such a lovely tune - it would be good to be able to use it.

Helen


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Subject: RE: Help: Unusual Devon songs
From: Lanfranc
Date: 28 Jan 01 - 05:58 PM

"Strawberry Fair" (which isn't in the DT) was collected by Baring-Gould from James Masters of Broadstone, Devon. The traditional version bears little resemblance to the bowdlerised song of the same name recorded by Anthony Newley in the 60s.

The original MS is in Plymouth Central Library. My source is Roy Palmer's "Everyman's Book of English COuntry Songs".

If there is any interest, I will post it.


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Subject: RE: Help: Unusual Devon songs
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 28 Jan 01 - 07:27 PM

It sounds like you've done a lot of research already and are looking for things from farther afield, but last summer at Pinewoods Camp I met Jason Rice and Mark and Sarah Bazeley of the Pixies, who are in your neighborhood, and who carry on the legacy of Bob Cann (Mark's grandfather). Though they're more of a dance band than singers, Jason led a wonderful session on West Country songs, mostly based on a copy of an unpublished manuscript of a memoir-cum-songbook called "Bring Your Guitar" by the late Ken Penney. There were more than 200 songs. They also had a really neat more recent song "in the tradition" called "Craftsmen of the Moor" by Bob Cann. If you need contact info for them, I've got it. (Jason's in Crediton, and the Bazeley's are in Okehampton.)

~ Becky Nankivell (of Cornish antecedants on one side, at least!) in Tucson, Arizona


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Subject: RE: Help: Unusual Devon songs
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 28 Jan 01 - 07:49 PM

Please do post Strawberry Fair, Lanfranc, easpecially if you can do a midi as well.  To be fair to Anthony Newley, he just recorded a parody of the song; the bowdlerisation was done by Baring Gould, though, to give him his due, he preserved the original text; he just didn't feel that it was publishable at the time.  It's actually quite inoffensive, having only a very mild sexual metaphor, but would be a surprise to the generations of children who have had to learn the rather twee re-write!

Malcolm


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Subject: RE: Help: Unusual Devon songs
From: Hawker
Date: 31 Jan 01 - 01:54 PM

Hi Deni, Lucy here, Tamsyn & Amber's Mum! nice to see you are searching for something a bit different too! We must get together soon and swap songs! Have you in your searchings at the library found a song called the Torrington Bellringers? We heard of it at the Baring Gould Fest last year and want to know more! See you soon...... Its Tamsyn's birthday 2 weeks today - I think Tamsyn is hoping to see Rachel! Lucy


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Subject: RE: Help: Unusual Devon songs
From: Deni
Date: 06 Feb 01 - 06:25 AM

Helen I was a bit wary of copyright permissions, because obtaining one for a book I was publishing would have involved me paying £50 for each line mentioned of two rather famous songs from the war era. (The third song's publisher was happy to have his line used with just 'by permission of'.) Seeing we were only doing a limited print run of 200 copies, this seemed a bit over the top. But I think I might try with this tune, Farewell to Devon. Is Pat Shaw still with us? or if recent is his/her work being published by the EFDSS? The trouble is, not coming from a dance background, I am incredibly ignorant of who's who. The Mudcat will no doubt set me straight. Thanks.

Desert Dancer,

I have seen Jason Rice et al a few times. I might bump into them at one of the Devon festivals, in which case I'll ask all about it. Thanks for suggesting that. Please, what is Pinewoods Camp? As to research, I suppose I should ask to see manuscripts in Plymouth Central Library which have not been published. I wonder if that is possible.

Malcolm and Lanfranc,

Strawberry Fair is a possibility. I admit I was put off by the overplayed Anthony Newley version, so much so, that I would have just skimmed over it if I had seen it. Now I will take a longer look. I live in Plymouth and can get Roy Palmer's book from the library. Thanks for offering.

To Lucy, My Cornish counterpart,

Haven't come across the Torrington Bellringers, but have the Bells of Canterbury and have heard a few other bellringing songs. Strange that I should meet you on here, when you only live 80 miles down the road, or whatever. Don't forget Pennymoor Song & Ale, June 1-3, Black Dog Village.

We must get together for a Cornish/ Devonshire Folk Day or something. We've got a lot of negativity around folk music in Plymouth, Devon, what with it being a great Metropolis and all.

Thanks all.

Deni


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Subject: RE: Help: Unusual Devon songs
From: Bob Bolton
Date: 06 Feb 01 - 07:02 AM

G'day Deni,

Of the top of my head, I believe that Pat Shaw died inthe last decade ... so copyright exists in the tunes for about 40 more years! I don't know whether the EFDSS is the assignee or the Pat Shaw estate, but a quiet enquiry of the EFDSS might be in order.

If the book is a private printing of 200 copies, you could rely on the legal principle de minimis non curat lex ... the law is not concerned with trifles (and we will not go into the limerick by which law clerks remembered that Latin phrase!).

Regards,

Bob Bolton


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Subject: RE: Help: Unusual Devon songs
From: Richard Bridge
Date: 06 Feb 01 - 10:38 AM

One line from a song is not a substantial reproduction for copyright purposes in the UK. Authority, Ravenscroft -v- Herbert.

Usual disclaimer.


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Subject: RE: Help: Unusual Devon songs
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 06 Feb 01 - 10:45 AM

The English Folk Dance and Song Society has two collections of the late Pat Shuldham Shaw's melodies in print; details (but not contents listings, unfortunately) at  efdss.org


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Subject: RE: Help: Unusual Devon songs
From: GUEST,Kernow Jon
Date: 06 Feb 01 - 11:53 AM

Hi Deni
Strange to see Jan's Courtship above as there is a Cornish version (wonder which came first). Down here it's known as Jan Knuckey and the Jan is pronounced Jan (rhymes with van). I thought I'd posted this with the tune a few years back but can't get the search going at the moment. I'll try searching later if not will post again, my wife transcribed the tune from the singing of Sue White who I think sings out of Devon these days.
regards KJ


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Subject: RE: Help: Unusual Devon songs
From: MMario
Date: 06 Feb 01 - 11:59 AM

Jan Knuckey


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Subject: RE: Help: Unusual Devon songs
From: GUEST,Kernow Jon
Date: 06 Feb 01 - 04:22 PM

Thanks Mario
KJ


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Subject: RE: Help: Unusual Devon songs
From: Desert Dancer
Date: 06 Feb 01 - 11:29 PM

The camp I saw Jason Rice at last summer was the Folk Music Week, run by the Country Dance and Song Society, at Pinewoods Camp in Plymouth, Massachusetts, USA. Sara Grey was program director (as she is this year) and brought the Pixies over, along with a wonderful assortment of other folks. See http://www.cdss.org/programs/2000/pw-folk-music.html or http://www.cdss.org/programs/2001/pw-folk-music.html for this year.

They told us all about the Black Dog and we included our version in the processional festivities at the end of the week.

~ Becky in Tucson, Arizona


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Subject: RE: Help: Unusual Devon songs
From: Snuffy
Date: 07 Feb 01 - 09:36 AM

Deni, on further listening I think the line: "While she's in the shaking and [babering?] " could be more like: "While she stood there shaking and vapouring"


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Subject: RE: Help: Unusual Devon songs
From: Deni
Date: 09 Feb 01 - 01:37 AM

Good morning all!

Bob B and Richard B re: copyright. Thanks for your comments. I'll dig deeper. Malcolm, I'm going to efdss.org now, thanks for that.

Kernow Jon, Another Cornish counterpart? I'm fidning this a bit spooky, that this year at the festivals I might be bumping into mudcatters I've 'spoken to', without realising who they are. Should we wear red carnations, or badges or something?

Kernow Jon, I've read Jan Knuckley. what do you think of Devon people singing Cornish songs and vice versa? I've met people who are very posessive about 'their' songs. If a Devon folkie came to your club or whatever and let rip with Jan Knuckley would you think it was a blasted cheek? Not that I want to start a great divide or anything.

Come to think of it, when we were at Wadebridge Folk festival (didn't we have a lovely time......) last year, I don't recall hearing as much Cornish Traditional song as you'd expect. Which is a shame. Although a lady in a pub did sing a song actually in the Cornish language and I was well-impressed. Lovely voice too. She, by the way, was Irish!

Snuffy

I really like shaking and babering. I think you might have a really original line there! I can just imagine people taking it up as a catch phrase, like loverly jubbly.

I remember Noel Emnonds or someone used to do a few minutes on hard to hear lyrics on his programme. For years, I thought Hot Chocolate had a song which went, I believe in milko, where you from, you sexy thing. Oh dear, I am digressing now.

Cheers, Devon Deni


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Subject: RE: Help: Unusual Devon songs
From: GUEST,Kernow Jon
Date: 09 Feb 01 - 05:59 PM

Hi Deni
If you came to our club we would be pleased to hear any variations of songs. We are fortunate in that we have a regular singer who's first language is Cornish. Ray and his family ie. wife and 2 boys only speak Cornish at home!
Wadebridge this year is being organised by a singer in our band Jon Ryan. 3 of the lunchtime pub sessions are being hosted by 3 different folk clubs, Bodmin, Folk on the Moor and ours St. Ives. So if yu are planning on coming look out for the 'Cat T shirts.
Last year I met John from Norway there.
Regards John


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Subject: RE: Help: Unusual Devon songs
From: Deni
Date: 12 Feb 01 - 05:21 AM

KJ But, but where is your club...and when? Deni


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Subject: RE: Help: Unusual Devon songs
From: GUEST,Kernow Jon
Date: 12 Feb 01 - 07:11 AM

Deni
Sorry should have explained.
We have a web site at www.stivesfolk.freeservers.com
Can't do the blue clicky bits.
I just look after the web site and do the resident spot on occasion. Jon does all the bookings. We are always on the lookout for guests to book so get in touch.
Hope this helps
KJ


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Subject: RE: Help: Unusual Devon songs
From: GUEST,Brian Hoskin
Date: 12 Feb 01 - 07:41 AM

Here's a link:

St Ives Folk


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Subject: RE: Help: Unusual Devon songs
From: Hawker
Date: 12 Feb 01 - 06:39 PM

Deni, Just been catching up with this thread, interesting to see what people can come up with..... I have a version of Strawberry fair which is OK, and a few Devonian/Cornish songs which were collected either side of the border - All SBG - but often you (well I actually) don't always give them a try unless I have heard them and liked..... or read the words - and pouring over SBG's manuscripts is yawn stimulating at the best of times and it's easy to miss something. Also have a vague memory of an old record of Kevin's dad's with some Devon beauties on it - that I have not heard elsewhere..... Have e-mailed you tonite - so hopefully will see you soon.... Lucy & Kevin.


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Subject: RE: Help: Unusual Devon songs
From: Wotcha
Date: 12 Feb 01 - 11:51 PM

Now, isn't there some song with the words "Where be that wurzel be ... I sees he ... and he sees I ..."
Used in the movie "Straw Dogs." Maybe not traditional ...
Cheers,
Brian


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Subject: RE: Help: Unusual Devon songs
From: Snuffy
Date: 13 Feb 01 - 08:24 AM

It's a blackbird, and the song was recorded by The Wurzels, amongst others


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Subject: RE: Help: Unusual Devon songs
From: Deni
Date: 13 Feb 01 - 05:33 PM

Thanks for the PM Kernow Jon. Have read and digested it, Will be in touch with the club before long.

Thanks for the songs everyone. Unlike Lucy I find poring over old song books riveting - shows how sad I am. It's totally addictive like chatting on here, but I have to agree with her that it is easy to miss really good songs. I even sit on buses humming away with some dusty book in front of me. come to think of it, I must seem really odd....surprise! I've looked at the St Ives club site, thanks Brian. Your name rings a bell with us, are you from Plymouth?

Yes I've seen the Blackbird song, but haven't yet had the guts to watch Straw Dogs.

See you all later.

Byee


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Subject: RE: Help: Unusual Devon songs
From: Brian Hoskin
Date: 14 Feb 01 - 05:30 AM

Deni,


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Subject: RE: Help: Unusual Devon songs
From: Brian Hoskin
Date: 14 Feb 01 - 05:33 AM

Sorry about that, clumsy typing. I was just going to say, yes Deni, I do live in Plymouth, but I've only just moved here.

Brian


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Subject: RE: Help: Unusual Devon songs
From: GUEST,Kernow Jon
Date: 14 Feb 01 - 06:23 AM

Deni
Meant to say before you may have noticed a scroll about John the Fish on our web site. If you email him a list of your gigs he is only to happy to put them out on Sundays. I think the program now covers Devon as well.
regards KJ


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Subject: RE: Help: Unusual Devon songs
From: Hawker
Date: 14 Feb 01 - 04:42 PM

Deni, It's not that I find it BORING, I also find it riveting, but after a couple of hours you get a bit sleepy, and unlike you I don't do the dots, so I can't work the tunes out easily. Its words and written notes - the notes about the songs are the most fascinating...... now I could wax lyrical about them for ages! - well you know that! I'll see if I can nick father in laws recor at the weekend with thos songs on for you, see you then, Lucy


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Subject: RE: Help: Unusual Devon songs
From: Hawker
Date: 15 Feb 01 - 05:04 AM

Deni, Found it! LP Devon Tradition - An anthology from Traditional Singers - such as Amy Birch, Phoebe birch, Avice Clarke, Noby Clarke, Joe Davies, Harold Gill, Charlie Hill, Brain Holland, Sophie Isaacs, Henry Mitchemore, Tommy OrchardSnr & Jnr, Bii Parnell, Bob Penfold, Nelson Penfold, George Roberts, Jim Sanders & Bob Small. Songs suich as The Exmoor Ram, The Molecatcher, When I was a young man, Head-a-nodding The leg 'o'o the mallard to name a few, Really great VERY traditional stuff.... I'll play it at the weekend if Ned doesn't get called out! Its on TOPIC records, don't know if it is still available.

Also it may be worth chatting to Jackie & Bob Patten who live near Crediton, I will give you their E-mail address at the weekend, they are collectors of Devon tradition and song and have a vast collection that has to be worth fishing through, they may have a few suggestions.

see you soon, Lucy


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Subject: RE: Help: Unusual Devon songs
From: Jo Taylor
Date: 19 Feb 01 - 06:32 PM

Deni, I'm an exile from Devon myself, originally North Devon then Exeter & Chudleigh. Do you know Paul Wilson & Marilyn Tucker in Okehampton who run the Wren Trust? Their projects should give you a bit to go on with. I can think of quite a few other sources, but can't tell which you are familiar with already other than Ken Penney's circle, the Dartmoor Folk Festival crowd... there, you might come across Nigel Sture who some years ago released a cassette called 'Songs of the South Devon Coast' with his then band Rumpus - based near Kingsbridge. Hope this helps.

Jo Taylor

Exiled in France


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Subject: RE: Help: Unusual Devon songs
From: Deni
Date: 21 Feb 01 - 05:41 PM

To Jo Taylor,

Will probably try the contacts you suggest, although, the mudcatters have turned up quite a few ideas. I do see a few of those you mentioned from time to time, and will be at the Pennymoor singaround in June.

Thanks for your help. Shame you are exiled from our misty moors!

Cheers

Deni


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Subject: Add: Farmer's Daughter tunes
From: Snuffy
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 08:42 AM

ABC tunes for 2 versions of the Farmer's Daughter have been added in this thread Tune Req: The Highwayman Outwitted


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Subject: RE: Help: Unusual Devon songs
From: Leadfingers
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 09:23 AM

Margarets Waltz and Farewell to Devon were written by Pat Shaw for the Retirement of tHe lady who was heavily involved in EFDSS in devon , Margaret whose surname I cant remember . I have a lovely story that Aly Bain collected M's W in Canada, and on return to UK played it to Pat , who said 'Ah Yes! I remember writing that!'


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Subject: RE: Help: Unusual Devon songs
From: Malcolm Douglas
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 10:50 AM

The lady in question was Margaret Grant; Margaret's Waltz (and the dance that goes with it) were written on the occasion of her retirement as EFDSS representative in Devon (1959).


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Subject: RE: Help: Unusual Devon songs
From: Uncle_DaveO
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 11:06 AM

Deni (or anybody else):

I don't know whether in the last four years or so you've found the tune for Jan's Courting or not. If you still need it, and want it, it's on my CD, The Real Story, and I would on request copy it off and send it as an e-mail attachment. No problem. That offer is good for anyone else who's interested, too.

Dave Oesterreich


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Subject: RE: Help: Unusual Devon songs
From: Tradsinger
Date: 14 Feb 05 - 03:15 PM

I have just picked up on this thread as I only joined Mudcat recently. I can claim some knowledge of Devon songs from my various sojourns and collecting trips down there. The famous Roud index lists 759 songs collected in Devon, mainly by Sharp, Baring-Gould, Sam Richards and, ahem, me. Bob and Jackie Patten plus Cyril Tawney have all done some song collecting in Devon. Also, look at the work that Martin Graebe is doing currently on the Baring-Gould collection. The lovely Charlie Hill, traditional singer from Dartmoor, told me that he used to sing songs by one 'Jan Stewer' which were rustic-type songs in Devon dialect. These include 'When mother and me joined in' - a great song and 'Out stepped mother and me'. Why has no-one yet mentioned 'Tavistock Goosey Fair'? - cracking song. Then there are lots of songs from Devon travellers (gypsies) including the wonderful Birch/Orchard family of singers, musicians and step dancers. I sing a snatch of the Orchard family version of Broomfield Hill at
http://www.cmarge.demon.co.uk/gwilym/Stepaway.html

I sing 'Jan's Courtship'which I got from a singer who learnt it in Warwickshire, but I note that the words are almost identical to those in the 19 Jan 01 posting. If I knew how to write abc music I would post it, but I don't so I can't.

Happy to chat more about songs from Devon any time.

Gwilym


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Subject: RE: Help: Unusual Devon songs
From: BB
Date: 15 Feb 05 - 12:48 PM

We'll do so at Miskin, Gwilym.

Barbara Brown


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Subject: RE: Help: Unusual Devon songs
From: Tradsinger
Date: 23 Jul 06 - 03:29 PM

Does anyone have a copy of the 'Devon Tradition' LP that they would be willing to either sell me or put onto cassette/CD for me? I would be eternally grateful.

Gwilym


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Subject: RE: Help: Unusual Devon songs
From: GUEST
Date: 30 May 11 - 10:35 AM

A lot of time has gone by since we talked about this Devon Tradition LP. Does anyone know where we can get a copy?did you ever manage to get one Gwilym?



Cheers
Deni


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Subject: RE: Help: Unusual Devon songs
From: Gurney
Date: 30 May 11 - 03:27 PM

Cyril Tawney recorded a LP titled something like 'Traditional Children's Songs from Devon and Cornwall,' which is fully source-accredited, I remember. I have it somewhere.
A call to Rosemary Tawney might result in a copy.


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Subject: RE: Help: Unusual Devon songs
From: GUEST,ClaireO
Date: 18 Jun 11 - 09:34 AM

Hi there

I was just reading this thread and noticed the question about the Devon Traditional LP. My parents have a copy in Crediton. I'll be back there in a few weeks and will dig it out. I'm pretty sure I recorded it onto tape a few years back but it's easily done again. Might be able to get it onto the computer this time instead.

Watch this space. ha ha

Claire


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